Course Designers - write your own profile/review of them

[Dave242]

The Steady Ed thread and the post below from ThreePutt on the "Question from a Newbie" thread got me thinking it would be cool to get people's thoughts on prominent designers in the form of a synopsis.....a DGCR-like review of a body of work rather than a review of a specific course. Something like what Three-Putt wrote below (but probably longer).

Impressions, trends, idiosyncrasies, favorite features, frustrations, criticisms (keep them kind), success in milking the most out of what was given them, etc are all fair game.

Ed was pretty funny. Ed would hate this site. Actually Ed would love the site but hate the courses we rate highly. Ed was all fun in his course designs. All short holes that you could hit from the tee, all in the woods, that was a Steady Ed course. Basically Ed thought that everything should be par three and every hole should be deuceable. If your lie stunk, move it over...casual relief! Ed was a toy guy. He invented a game, not a sport.

I do not have time right now, but I plan to do something on Harold Duvall & Stan McDaniel (and maybe Russell Schwartz).

[Cgkdisc]

Ed was also a big fan of multiple tees and not necesssarily alternate pins. He had marked as many as five tee positions on the holes at his Lakeport, CA course before moving the basket manufacturing operation to Watsonville. Anyone remember seeing his artificial "trees" for sale? He had these poles with fins attached sort of like a tall aluminum Xmas tree. These would be installed near the tee to block throws in certain directions to add challenge on more open holes. There was one on the right side of the tee on a short hole at the Ponderosa course during the 1994 Pro Worlds.

[sidewinder22]

Did I ever tell you about the time Brasky and I went horseback riding, but there weren't any horses around? Anyway, Brasky throws a saddle on my back and rides me around Wyoming for three days. Well, wouldn't ya know it, my stamina increased with each day, and I develop tremendous leg muscles. So anyway, Brasky decides to enter me into the Breeders Cup under the name Turkish Delight. And Im running in second place, and I'm running, and I break my ankle. So anyway, they're about to shoot me. Then someone from the crowd yells out, God bless him, Dont shoot him, hes a human.

[magictenor1]

Ed was also a big fan of multiple tees and not necesssarily alternate pins. He had marked as many as five tee positions on the holes at his Lakeport, CA course before moving the basket manufacturing operation to Watsonville. Anyone remember seeing his artificial "trees" for sale? He had these poles with fins attached sort of like a tall aluminum Xmas tree. These would be installed near the tee to block throws in certain directions to add challenge on more open holes. There was one on the right side of the tee on a short hole at the Ponderosa course during the 1994 Pro Worlds.I am totally in agreement with multiple tees but no multiple pins. I hate to go to a course and throw to wher I think the pin is and then it's not there. I have never seena course where that is well marked.

[Billipo]

I am totally in agreement with multiple tees but no multiple pins. I hate to go to a course and throw to wher I think the pin is and then it's not there. I have never seena course where that is well marked.


Ever play Warwick? Two sets of tees and two sets of baskets, each a different physical color. This arrangement allows for four variations making combinations of hole length and green difficulty.

[magictenor1]

Ever play Warwick? Two sets of tees and two sets of baskets, each a different physical color. This arrangement allows for four variations making combinations of hole length and green difficulty.No I haven't played there. It's certainly possible I just haven't played a course where they pull it off well but for now I'd rather see the pin in the same place and 3 or 4 different tees which not only change difficulty but also actually change the character or feel of the hole.

[biscoe]

i have seen courses where the differing pin positions are well delineated on the signs- usually with either a bolt or a peg showing where it is at a given time. seneca was the first place i ever saw it.

[mashnut]

I am totally in agreement with multiple tees but no multiple pins. I hate to go to a course and throw to wher I think the pin is and then it's not there. I have never seena course where that is well marked.

At Morley Field in San Diego there are between 3 and 7 pin positions per hole, and they are extremely well marked. The signs have path and distance to each of the positions, and the current setting is marked in grease pencil. The whole course is switched up every week, but there's never any question of where the pin is. I really hate courses where you don't know where the pin is, but that's not a reason not to put in multiple pin positions, that's a reason to make sure you have adequate signage.

[Dave242]

Stan McDaniel’s courses (Renaissance Original & Gold, Hornet’s Nest Original & Web, Sugaw, Cordelia (extinct), Elon, and Stumpy Creek that I have played and am aware of) are manly man courses. Stan has carved the majority of these courses out of the thick North Carolina woods with nothing but his bare hands. No wonder they call him Stan the Man….or the Mule. OK, he does love his chainsaw.

They challenge you to execute…..or else.

Common features are length that will test his intended player’s arm (most are Blue and Gold level courses), but with enough narrowness to make things interesting. He is not afraid to use his red painted triangular stakes and/or Duke Power flags (or pavement at Sugaw) to mark off copious amounts of artificial OB. His use of OB can be brutal in that it can pour salt in one’s wounds, but I have never heard any accomplished player (other than Redneck Machismo) complain that any of it is unfair.

Most courses have a large proportion of very creative putting greens – some steep, some on boulders, some with ravines or OB 5-15’ away surrounding 1/4 – 1/2 of them, guarded by trees, elevated on posts or mounds, and even placed in the center of a stand of crepe myrtles. Another feature that is common, but you will probably miss it if you have not played with Stan much, is that there are low ceilings over many tee pads and logs on the ground on many fairways to limit overhand shots and rollers……he prefers discs to fly free.

In general the fairway shapes on his courses are not too creative (there are only 1-2 notable exceptions). When you step on the tee pad, you see a clear and straightforward route to the intended landing zone, you grip your disc, grit your teeth, clench your sphincter, and let it rip. You go man-on-man with the course and when you win, you enjoy an intense testosterone rush, and when the course opens a can of whoop-ass on you, you get beat down by a man’s man.

Charlotte already has two new courses that are only months old (Nevin & Elong) that have the Mule’s hoof-prints all over them, and there are several more in the works to be completed for Worlds 2012. Worshipping at Mecca is a manly thing!

[bikinjack]

I played Stumpy for the first time Sunday. We played from the longs, and it kicked my a$$. Definitely a manly man course. And a lot of fun.

[Dave242]

Harold Duvall’s courses (Winthrop Gold, Castle Hayne, Foothills, High Country, Boyd Hill are my favorites and probably the best known).

They challenge you to think and plan and pick your poison before being forced to execute…..no thinkie, no birdie.

Fairway shapes are creative and often narrow, but I can think of none where you stand on the pad and have no idea on how to make your disc fly to where it needs to go. Often there are multiple routes to choose from on a hole – each with its own set of benefits and drawbacks. What stands out are the risk/reward decisions that so often face you – most often in the “how much of this hole should I bite off with this throw to put me in a good position to make my next throw?” department.

OB danger close to the ideal landing zones (basket included) often is right there to punish shots that fly long (sometimes short too). Although OB created by miles of yellow rope (dis)grace the hallowed grounds of Winthrop Gold, artificial OB is not an oft used feature on any of Harold’s other courses. Given that, I am guessing he needed to grit his teeth when originally laying out all that rope at Winthrop (or should that be Winthrope?)…..but a man’s gotta do what a man’s gotta do!

Winthrop Gold epitomizes this fact: his courses are relentless. You can seldom let your guard down unless you just love paying the piper. Watching players drag their butts up #18 at the USDGC after being beat down mentally is an amazing testament to this. His other courses usually have 2-3 holes sprinkled in where you can just have fun watching your disc fly without a care about the consequence……but it is always back to the grindstone on the next tee.

People who excel on Harold’s courses are closet pocket-protector weenies who can compute the risk/reward percentages to 5 decimal points, have an uncanny emotional detachment that buoys them above the ever-lurking emotional quagmire, and prefer the use of the fan grip for accurate shot shaping over the power grip.

Harold also has a plethora of entry-level/introductory courses including Fewell Park and 267 elementary and middle schools all within earshot of Innova East in Rock Hill, SC. I am not familiar with any of these except Fewell, so I will trust that they are like Fewell (and all the others) in being excellently designed to rope in their intended audience.

I have a sneaking suspicion that Duval is all grown up now, but still loving creating his perfect world with his purple crayon…...and we enjoy this creativity and a piece of the perfect world now (on Harold’s courses) as much as we loved watching him when we were kids.

[WillACarpenter]

I was browsing John Houck'a circular productions website the other day when I clicked on the course list.

Turns out he's had his thumb in the revisions around here everytime they have an event! Ad such he's at least partly responsible for all of my favorite courses.

[Billipo]

No I haven't played there. It's certainly possible I just haven't played a course where they pull it off well but for now I'd rather see the pin in the same place and 3 or 4 different tees which not only change difficulty but also actually change the character or feel of the hole.

Clarification on my point.

I am not a big fan of alternate pins for same reasons that have been stated "where is it at". Pick the best spot for the skill level and keep it there.

But multiple pins where there are two permanent pins on a hole, I am ok with that...I sited the Warwick example as a real life example where multiple tees changes the hole look and adds distance while a second permanent pin also changes the hole look with the ability to add technical difficulty. This allows the ability to adjust for higher/lower skilled players both in arm strength and in putting skills based on tee/pin combo.

[Cgkdisc]

Unfortunately, a problem with Warwick is that Dan Doyle, the designer, didn't design each set of tee and pin combinations for a specific skill level. His progressive approach of dual tees and pins was done before the guidelines for skill levels were developed. Now, it's too ingrained to change. But hopefully, designers of future courses with this option will have the knowledge and skill to design each set of tees and pins for a skill level.

[fairweather_fan]

i would love to see a more 'seasoned' or experienced player/designer's point of view on the dave mccormack designed courses in and around the st. louis area. there are definitely some design elements that seem to run a common thread through many/most of his courses that i've played.

[John Rock]

I was browsing John Houck'a circular productions website the other day when I clicked on the course list.

Turns out he's had his thumb in the revisions around here everytime they have an event! Ad such he's at least partly responsible for all of my favorite courses.

Seems like I've heard him talk about growing up in New York (Buffalo, maybe?). He probably still has a lot of contacts there.

[Cgkdisc]

John grew up in Buffalo and in fact may still be there since he usually takes an extended holiday trip to visit family this time of year. He has been working with the Rochester 2011 Am Worlds team for a few years now and I'm sure has influenced some changes/improvements on courses in the area.

[WillACarpenter]

John grew up in Buffalo and in fact may still be there since he usually takes an extended holiday trip to visit family this time of year. He has been working with the Rochester 2011 Am Worlds team for a few years now and I'm sure has influenced some changes/improvements on courses in the area.

I was going to post that I'm excited to think he'll be working on am worlds 2011 :)

\/\/

[biscoe]

Harold Duvall’s courses (Winthrop Gold, Castle Hayne, Foothills, High Country, Boyd Hill are my favorites and probably the best known).

I have a sneaking suspicion that Duval is all grown up now, but still loving creating his perfect world with his purple crayon…...and we enjoy this creativity and a piece of the perfect world now (on Harold’s courses) as much as we loved watching him when we were kids.

earlewood is one of the best designed courses i have ever seen as well. 18 reachable holes but you don't throw the same shot twice. harold is probably my favorite designer. love the purple crayon reference.

[biscoe]

Stan McDaniel’s courses (Renaissance Original & Gold, Hornet’s Nest Original & Web, Sugaw, Cordelia (extinct), Elon, and Stumpy Creek that I have played and am aware of) are manly man courses. Stan has carved the majority of these courses out of the thick North Carolina woods with nothing but his bare hands. No wonder they call him Stan the Man….or the Mule. OK, he does love his chainsaw.

They challenge you to execute…..or else.

Common features are length that will test his intended player’s arm (most are Blue and Gold level courses), but with enough narrowness to make things interesting. He is not afraid to use his red painted triangular stakes and/or Duke Power flags (or pavement at Sugaw) to mark off copious amounts of artificial OB. His use of OB can be brutal in that it can pour salt in one’s wounds, but I have never heard any accomplished player (other than Redneck Machismo) complain that any of it is unfair.

Most courses have a large proportion of very creative putting greens – some steep, some on boulders, some with ravines or OB 5-15’ away surrounding 1/4 – 1/2 of them, guarded by trees, elevated on posts or mounds, and even placed in the center of a stand of crepe myrtles. Another feature that is common, but you will probably miss it if you have not played with Stan much, is that there are low ceilings over many tee pads and logs on the ground on many fairways to limit overhand shots and rollers……he prefers discs to fly free.

In general the fairway shapes on his courses are not too creative (there are only 1-2 notable exceptions). When you step on the tee pad, you see a clear and straightforward route to the intended landing zone, you grip your disc, grit your teeth, clench your sphincter, and let it rip. You go man-on-man with the course and when you win, you enjoy an intense testosterone rush, and when the course opens a can of whoop-ass on you, you get beat down by a man’s man.

Charlotte already has two new courses that are only months old (Nevin & Elong) that have the Mule’s hoof-prints all over them, and there are several more in the works to be completed for Worlds 2012. Worshipping at Mecca is a manly thing!

stan is better at post-installation enhancement of his courses than anyone. his design philosophy is probably closer to mine than any of the other well known designers as well. good shots should be rewarded, bad shots severely punished.

[Dave242]

earlewood is one of the best designed courses i have ever seen as well. 18 reachable holes but you don't throw the same shot twice. harold is probably my favorite designer. love the purple crayon reference.

I too absolutely love Earlewood - partly as it perfectly challenges my game (rewarding to score well there), but I'm also how amazed I am at how incredibly utilized the land is.

I did not realize that was Harold's design. Are you sure? I've always assumed that design predated him on the east coast, but I have never looked into it either. It would not surprise me that Earlewood is his design.

[biscoe]

i've played with him there and heard it from the horse's mouth (so to speak)- definitely one of harold's.

of course, he gives the usual humble disclaimer... " i was just lucky to be able to design here" or something similar.

[DavidSauls]

It would be cool if courses showed who designed them, or someone compiled a good list. There are a lot of courses around here that I believe Harold designed....but am not sure.

I just played one of Stan's newest creations (Elon Long)---keeping up his reputation of, shall we say, challenging courses.

[Cgkdisc]

The Course Designer is a field for course info on this site if the designer gets the info entered. Might have to do Harold's for him though.

[Dave242]

1-2 hours ago, I updated Earlewood with Harold's name (and changed it from "Heavily Wooded"??? to "Moderately")

If known, I would encourage people here to update that field for each course if they know who the designer(s) is/are.

[prerube]

I say Tim Beron is an underrated course designer. TIMBER RULES

[Dave242]

I say Tim Beron is an underrated course designer. TIMBER RULES

That what short and sweet....kinda like the typical Flip City review. :D

[Cgkdisc]

For those interested, here is the page listing the members of the DGCD Course Designers group. Scroll about halfway down. You can see what state they are from and their level in the group:
http://www.discgolfcoursedesigners.org/discgolfwiki/index.php5

[biscoe]

I say Tim Beron is an underrated course designer. TIMBER RULES

timber is also right up there with stan as king of post installation course improvement.

[Billipo]

It would be interesting to tie course evolution (design milestones) to the designers. I am sure much was collaborative, but tying who was the first to... would be interesting stuff (for the Disc History Channel types).

[superberry]

I prefer multiple tees over multiple pin locations. Reason purely being statistical. I know my average score and best and worst from a given set of tees to a single pin. When you have alternate pins, you introduce billions of combinations if just one pin moves at a time. The only time I move pins to the alternate locations on the course I designed is during the winter and then all pins move at once. It would drive me nuts if I had to say "man! I shot 12 down today, but #5 was in the B Pin, #16 was in the C pin, etc, etc, etc"

[John Rock]

We don't have the luxury(?) of carving fairways through thick woods. However, we do have a large piece of property to use, so switching the hole locations around is a big plus for variety. Without the dense foilage, alternate tees and pins is good. Also, if every pin location is visible from the tee, that removes some of the confusion about which spot it's in.