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View Full Version : [Innova] Sidearm Upgrade from Wraith to -?


djjeremiahj
02-25-2010, 11:13 PM
I absolutely love my wraith (Champion 170) for sidearm....i seem to throw it perfect every time.... BUT, it really doesnt have much improved distance. I can throw other discs (forehand) as far or farther, and i can throw other discs backhand farther with less consistency. The biggest use, for me is the right side fade (right handed forearm).

I've tried:
- 169 Star Destroyer (Months later still trying to break in!) Still WAAAY too Overstable, and i've let the POWER ARMS of my group throw it, and they can BARELY flip it over.... ("I'm going to flip this over... Throw.... Wow that went almost perfectly straight, and far... can i have it?")
- 171 Pro & 170 Star Boss : Maybe a tad bit farther but less consistent.
- 170 Katana : Clearly improved distance, tricky to throw without overpowering and less consistent.

- I have a (Elite Z) Predator that i really like in shorter ranges.

My home course is basically precision based, so consistency is key. There are no holes that are open that i can "let it rip". every hole to some extent, has tree issues, OB, or other natural impediments.

any suggestions?

valkyrie
02-25-2010, 11:14 PM
TeeRex maybe?

djjeremiahj
02-25-2010, 11:19 PM
TeeRex maybe?

I went through a TeeRex-X phase, and after 3 discs i decided that relying on a "hard to find" CFR disc wasnt the best concept... I can say however, it was a very good disc and if they made it in regular production it would have a permanent place in my bag. It ended up being too hard to find, and not so much of a big improvement over a trusty wraith and/or boss combo.

prerube
02-25-2010, 11:21 PM
maybe go lighter with the Boss

valkyrie
02-25-2010, 11:21 PM
I went through a TeeRex-X phase, and after 3 discs i decided that relying on a "hard to find" CFR disc wasnt the best concept... I can say however, it was a very good disc and if they made it in regular production it would have a permanent place in my bag. It ended up being too hard to find, and not so much of a big improvement over a trusty wraith and/or boss combo.

Ahh.

I was gonna recomend a Star Destoryer, but i see that you arledy tried one of those. Maybe a Pro destroyer?

smyith
02-25-2010, 11:22 PM
a wraith and teerex are gonna go pretty much the same distance. how far are you throwing it? what kind of turn and fade are you looking to get in comparison? the destroyer will workout for a slight increase in distance. how consistent/accurate are you with the destroyer? trying throwing alot of thumbers and tomahawks with the destroyer. that will beat it up a lil faster. a Force may work faster more overstable. katanas are very touchy, from my limited experience, if your looking for consistency and accuracy i doubt youll get it with this disc without some major practice.

MotoDj
02-25-2010, 11:24 PM
how far you throwing your wraith?

bongripper0420
02-25-2010, 11:27 PM
Have you tried a groove yet?

valkyrie
02-25-2010, 11:28 PM
Have you tried a groove yet?

Let the discussion begin....

prerube
02-25-2010, 11:29 PM
want more distance, don't change the disc, change the form.

OcDiscGolf
02-25-2010, 11:34 PM
Try a Star Xcaliber.

Personally, I have been ripping my Discraft FR Nuke the furthest FH, but the Xcal has more speed than the wraith and teerex, with more stability as well.

smyith
02-25-2010, 11:35 PM
want more distance, don't change the disc, change the form.

not necessarily. the sidearm is only capable of so much. to really throw it far you have to throw in a motion that does damage to your elbow. gotta keep it in.

evansr10
02-25-2010, 11:36 PM
want more distance, don't change the disc, change the form.

I have done this with my form by not overpowering my arm (RHFH)and by following through more smoothly across my chest. Although my distance hasn't increased a whole lot, I'm more consistent in getting my max drives

djjeremiahj
02-25-2010, 11:47 PM
how far you throwing your wraith?

good question...

Forehand: (course distance with precision base, not wild "need absolute distance")
Katana: 320'+
Boss: 310'+
Wraith: 300'+

Sidearm:
Katana (when it works): 340'+
Boss (when it works and i want the harsh fade to kill the distance): 315'+
Wraith: 310'
Destroyer (168 - still trying to beat in): 300'+ with amazing hard fade. BUT i can use a hyzer spike and get it to 300' with precise accuracy.

* as you can see, <theoretically> i can outdrive my wraith forearm... and my alternates are too inconsistent.

prerube
02-25-2010, 11:57 PM
not necessarily. the sidearm is only capable of so much. to really throw it far you have to throw in a motion that does damage to your elbow. gotta keep it in.

This is more of a generic statement for people looking for advice on increasing distance. When you are throwing nearly 350ft. there is not a whole lot you can do to up your distance on the sidearm. I would not be worried about 10 more feet at 350

smyith
02-26-2010, 12:01 AM
looking at those distances maybe you should disc down. throwing a wraith should get you easily over 350' . if your only putting out 300' then your using too much disc. go with a slower speed. Starfire, SL, or Orc. maybe a Surge, slightly more HSS understable with similar fade. might stretch out the D a lil better.

djjeremiahj
02-26-2010, 12:11 AM
looking at those distances maybe you should disc down. throwing a wraith should get you easily over 350' . if your only putting out 300' then your using too much disc. go with a slower speed. Starfire, SL, or Orc. maybe a Surge, slightly more HSS understable with similar fade. might stretch out the D a lil better.

very good advice....
how much does weight matter...????

could i get a max weight wraith, really rip into it, and find the extra distance? When i throw my <current> wraith, i "just throw", i dont really try too hard, or try extra hard.... "walk up, dont really take too much time to overthink, dont try to over power or adjust power, dont really try to think too much about wrist angle, arm height, etc.... Just walk up, get the correct direction and alignment and throw"....300-320' everytime, with decent accuracy and placement with a very pretty "you know what you are doing" flight.

i have an SL, but it's about the same.... but no (or little fade), as a result i see no purpose in throwing a disc sidearm the same distance that i can throw forehand with better control and accuracy.

BrotherDave
02-26-2010, 01:48 AM
Try a Star Xcaliber.


This. Get an Xcal, trust me you'll thank me later. It was my FH goto of choice after going from Wraith and then Teerex. I flick a Starfire now but it's more of a control disc and not a distance disc. But Xcals are awesome for FH.

djjeremiahj
02-26-2010, 01:57 AM
This. Get an Xcal, trust me you'll thank me later. It was my FH goto of choice after going from Wraith and then Teerex. I flick a Starfire now but it's more of a control disc and not a distance disc. But Xcals are awesome for FH.

in relation to my Wraith (170 champ), katana (170 star) and Boss (171 pro) what weight and plastic?

BrotherDave
02-26-2010, 02:04 AM
in relation to my Wraith (170 champ), katana (170 star) and Boss (171 pro) what weight and plastic?

Same weight, go for Star. I have this theory, it hasn't failed me yet but here it is: Champ starts out the most overstable, star slightly less so. Champ is accordingly most resistant to wearing in BUT when it does start wearing in, it's a slippery slope to flippy town. FH gets them there sooner. So, Star IMO wears in much more gradually and overall more predictably. This could be my freaky experience only but I stand by it.

djjeremiahj
02-26-2010, 02:15 AM
Same weight, go for Star. I have this theory, it hasn't failed me yet but here it is: Champ starts out the most overstable, star slightly less so. Champ is accordingly most resistant to wearing in BUT when it does start wearing in, it's a slippery slope to flippy town. FH gets them there sooner. So, Star IMO wears in much more gradually and overall more predictably. This could be my freaky experience only but I stand by it.

Theory:
i agree 100%

Caveat - in the slower speeds, any star and champ "broken in" stays around forever. BUT, star tends to be a touch more overstable. (maybe because it "breaks in" slower?)
Either way, in the slower speeds any champ or star disc is one you'll have for many seasons... (today i played with a guy with a champ roc and aviar... i joked, you'll probably leave that champ roc and aviar to your grandkids in your will when you die"... "Yup. The roc because its a champ roc, and the aviar because i will never throw it against trees enough to make it flippy."

sirflicksalot
02-26-2010, 02:28 AM
change the form your using

skurf
02-26-2010, 02:44 AM
I'd say try a Crush. It's like a slower Destroyer.

Technohic
02-26-2010, 07:52 AM
I'd say try a Crush. It's like a slower Destroyer.

Yeah, a Crush should have a little more come back and a little less turn than your Wraith.

Pulse, I hope, will be a good one. Right between the Crush and Wraith and I got one comming.

jkdisc
02-26-2010, 08:21 AM
i go with a beast for longer FH shots

hogleggbob
02-26-2010, 09:10 AM
Try a Star Xcaliber.

Personally, I have been ripping my Discraft FR Nuke the furthest FH, but the Xcal has more speed than the wraith and teerex, with more stability as well.

WHAT HE SAID....x -cal is a great step up from a wraith

skottyb
02-26-2010, 09:54 AM
Or a tee-rex... then maybe the next step an Xcal..

kerplunk
02-26-2010, 10:02 AM
TeeRex maybe?

Boo! TeeRex beat in too fast and become very unpredictable.

kerplunk
02-26-2010, 10:11 AM
WHAT HE SAID....x -cal is a great step up from a wraith

I don't know why everyone is recommending the Xcal. It says in the OP that the star destroyer is too stable, why would he move to an even more stable discs :doh:?

I would actually recommend a less stable destroyer. In my experience the flatter ones are less stable, although I know I'm gonna open a can of worms saying that.

I think the discing down idea is a pretty good one too. I can usually throw a Teebird almost as far as a Destoyer and I can throw it on a lower, straighter line because I am actually getting the correct flight out of the Teebird. You probably shouldn't disc down that much, but I thought the idea of a Starfire, SL or Orc was good.

grass_stain
02-26-2010, 01:28 PM
z Crush, but it has to be grape or orange

okiebullgod
02-26-2010, 01:52 PM
My TeeBirds fly nice and straight forehand, not overly flippy, and not too much fade.

skottyb
02-26-2010, 02:19 PM
Boo! TeeRex beat in too fast and become very unpredictable.

Then they become great backhand discs....

BrotherDave
02-26-2010, 08:22 PM
I don't know why everyone is recommending the Xcal. It says in the OP that the star destroyer is too stable, why would he move to an even more stable discs :doh:?

I would actually recommend a less stable destroyer. In my experience the flatter ones are less stable, although I know I'm gonna open a can of worms saying that.

I think the discing down idea is a pretty good one too. I can usually throw a Teebird almost as far as a Destoyer and I can throw it on a lower, straighter line because I am actually getting the correct flight out of the Teebird. You probably shouldn't disc down that much, but I thought the idea of a Starfire, SL or Orc was good.
That Destroyer sounded like a freak one to me, they're out there. The Star Xcals are pretty consistent from what I hear.

djjeremiahj
02-26-2010, 10:05 PM
That Destroyer sounded like a freak one to me, they're out there. The Star Xcals are pretty consistent from what I hear.

re: destroyer
i've thought the same.. In fact, somewhere on this forum, someone said that the Star Destroyers in the 160's ranges were a lot more overstable than any 170 or above.
Also, i've done a fair job of trying to break it in. I throw it as a second shot a lot, i let my strong arm friends throw it, and the thing seems to be indestructible. I had a Pro destroyer (that i replaced with the star) that eventually broke in, but this one seems to be a lot more damage resistant than any other star disc i've owned. :mad: (My Avatar is the logo i put on it, and i am really trying to get it usable!)

BrotherDave
02-26-2010, 10:08 PM
re: destroyer
i've thought the same.. In fact, somewhere on this forum, someone said that the Star Destroyers in the 160's ranges were a lot more overstable than any 170 or above.
Also, i've done a fair job of trying to break it in. I throw it as a second shot a lot, i let my strong arm friends throw it, and the thing seems to be indestructible. I had a Pro destroyer (that i replaced with the star) that eventually broke in, but this one seems to be a lot more damage resistant than any other star disc i've owned. :mad: (My Avatar is the logo i put on it, and i am really trying to get it usable!)
If you left it in hot dye for a while you might have made the disc super flat, might have something to do with it.

djjeremiahj
02-26-2010, 10:15 PM
If you left it in hot dye for a while you might have made the disc super flat, might have something to do with it.

the avatar logo was created with a sharpie...
but good to know about the "super flat".

i am seriously thinking that i got an anomaly, and that i might need to go back to Pro or get another one. One of my DG compatriots has an identical disc (star and weight) that he's managed to break in.....
(darn innova inconsistencies! :wall:)

Dude
02-26-2010, 11:27 PM
I went from Star Wraith to Star XCal and I love it. Also after reading somewhere on here that someone recommended the Riot as a FH disc I tried that out and it flies like a champ. Now I use both depending on the amount of fade I need at the end. The Riot is much more predictable FH than BH for me and really hauls. It's nowhere near as overstable as the XCal so if your Destroyer is too overstable then maybe the XCal isn't the answer. Try the Riot.

Also, thanks to whomever it was that recommended that in another thread!

compn
02-26-2010, 11:52 PM
tried any 150s yet?

gianetics
02-27-2010, 12:34 AM
when you throw the wraith flat is it turning left (rhfh) if not work on form and snap. if so, get a nuke or force. i know what everyone is going to say, the force is more stable than the destroyer. From my experience the force starts out that way, but breaks in (z-plastic) about as stable as my star wraith. could just be my force or my throw. Now.... the nuke is the way to go. it has mad speed, which is surprising because it;s shape is very dome like. I can throw the nuke with a tiny anhy angle and it will just soar, flying to the left before finally fading right.