Innova "the GROOVE" initial observations

[tomjulio]

Went out today in the most miserable of any condition I have ever played. Fog, rain, 50 degrees, snow melting creating rivers of ice. Miserable. Then again I was disc golfing. Played with a local Innova dealer who had a test press of the new Innova Groove. Speed rated 13 and supposed to be more stable than a boss.

Initial impressions and observations.

-Feels like a boss in your hand. WIDE rim.
-The under side of a rim has a groove in it. I am assuming this is why they called it such.
-The weight was a 170, but I guess they are trying to get it into the mid/lower 160's.
-I would say watching everyone throw it, and the reseller who has a consistent throw, that it flies almost identical to a Destroyer.
-It held a straight line longer than a beast but still had a hard dive at the end.
-Never once saw it turnover more than flat. It wants to fade like a destroyer.

I was hoping that the Groove would be more stable to understable, but then again this was only a new test pressing of the disc.

[tomjulio]

-It held a straight line longer than a beast but still had a hard dive at the end.


meant to say the boss.

[blang]

Went out today in the most miserable of any condition I have ever played. Fog, rain, 50 degrees, snow melting creating rivers of ice. Miserable. Then again I was disc golfing. Played with a local Innova dealer who had a test press of the new Innova Groove. Speed rated 13 and supposed to be more stable than a boss.

Initial impressions and observations.

-Feels like a boss in your hand. WIDE rim.
-The under side of a rim has a groove in it. I am assuming this is why they called it such.
-The weight was a 170, but I guess they are trying to get it into the mid/lower 160's.
-I would say watching everyone throw it, and the reseller who has a consistent throw, that it flies almost identical to a Destroyer.
-It held a straight line longer than a beast but still had a hard dive at the end.
-Never once saw it turnover more than flat. It wants to fade like a destroyer.

I was hoping that the Groove would be more stable to understable, but then again this was only a new test pressing of the disc.

I thought the Groove was supposed to be an understable Boss similar to a faster Wraith?

[tomjulio]

I thought the Groove was supposed to be an understable Boss similar to a faster Wraith?

it's def more on the stable side as opposed to the overstable side compared to a Boss. In no way would I say this thing was anywhere near understable, and all I basically drive with is Wraiths.

[blang]

it's def more on the stable side as opposed to the overstable side compared to a Boss. In no way would I say this thing was anywhere near understable, and all I basically drive with is Wraiths.

disc golf sweden/English/nyheter.aspx (http://www.discgolfsweden.se/English/nyheter.aspx) Says that Innova calling it "a faster Monarch" so I am a little disappointed with what you have experienced. I Also heard that the Boss was only supposed to be able to be used properly by a small power group yet many say they are not power throwers but have benefited from throwing the Boss. It is too bad that results may even differ between each run of the Boss, Grove or any other Innova disc, As a Wraith thrower that cannot use the Boss for backhand throws, I hope that future runs of the Groove might be less stable.


Press Release from Innova.

Groove is in the air. A new driver from Rancho Cucamonga, California will be airborne soon, the Groove is a speed 13 slightly turning power driver. It is aimed at less powerful throwers as a complement to the Boss with a straighter flight and in lower weight, it goes down to 164 grams in Champion material. Preliminary figures for the flight rating are; Speed=13, glide=5, HSS=0-2 and LSS=2.

[petecarp]

so the glide is as fast as the boss with more fade. how is that much different than the xcaliber which doesnt seem to be too widely used.

[DeafDiscGolfer]

Ok, I haven't own or tried throwing the Boss yet but do own several Wraiths and Destroyers.

Should I wait out for the Groove to come out or should I go ahead to buy Boss anyway? I like a little bit understable type of discs but not too understable that can be flipped too easy.

I'm on limited budget at the moment....it sucks!

[tomjulio]

See if I can answer a few more questions from what I experienced.

In no way did this the Groove resemble any flight characteristic of a Monarch(which I use sparingly due to easy roll overs). I never saw the groove go more than perfectly flat and straight through it's flight, than a hard dive to the left (rhbh). Pure Destroyer flight path.

As for getting the Boss. Love that disc for three purposes.

1. Super fast hyzer disc that is really predictable.
2. When there is a strong left to right wind (rhbh) the Boss will hold a line pretty far.
3. You just can't rollover this disc. I have tried but it always will come back.

[discgolforegon]

You have any pictures of the disc, or is that confidential until release?

[blang]

You have any pictures of the disc, or is that confidential until release?
Boss with the Monarch wing....?
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3117/3145788007_c5d9cb0e4c_o.jpg

[Donovan]

As for getting the Boss. Love that disc for three purposes.

1. Super fast hyzer disc that is really predictable.
2. When there is a strong left to right wind (rhbh) the Boss will hold a line pretty far.
3. You just can't rollover this disc. I have tried but it always will come back.

FYI I have seen a guy who throws this close to 500 feet hold an ani line all the way to 450 feet before. I didn't know it could be done either until I saw it with my own eyes. No wind.

[tomjulio]

Boss with the Monarch wing....?
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3117/3145788007_c5d9cb0e4c_o.jpg


hahahaha. oh man.

[kpc2004]

Does anyone know when the groove is going to be available?

[Hamilton]

i would imagine it will become available first run probably next month...maybe february...

i was really hoping this would be a -2/2 like a valk, but they are usually pretty good on official flight ratings, so based on the above experiences, sounds like this will be a 0/2-3...

my first run boss has a little high speed turn, and my latest champ boss hasn't bee thrown enough to get a good feel for behavior (just got it on Thursday), but seems to be more overstable than the first run...

[BrotherDave]

http://dealer.innovadiscs.com/images/ch_groove_main.jpg

From: http://dealer.innovadiscs.com/

[ERicJ]

I wonder if Innova is going to take a hint from Discraft and start stamping all their discs with the flight numbers now. That would be convenient for those that actually know what that means. I could see them doing that on Pro, Champ, and Star plastic but leaving it off the DX discs.

[Marv Vega]

"Good pitch to players: The Groove is a Speed 13 driver for the rest of us."

I always love the part in the Innova Dealer page where they "suggest" a helpful sales pitch to the dealers.

[Hamilton]

i'm psyched if it will actually be a -2/1...perfect tailwind high speed driver, and should be great for a hyzer flip...

[valkyriefb11]

Sooo, I hope the groove does stick pretty close to the prelim flight ratings. The boss ended up being to overstable for my arm right now. Has anyone gotten to throw these discs yet?

[Hamilton]

i actually have a first run boss and a regular run boss...bot same weight (174) and the first run is noticeably more understable....

[valkyriefb11]

Can I just say this, Innova seems to lacking creativity in naming discs ... "the groove" ??? no originality and pretty lame

[Wheat]

To comment on a post on the first page, I throw and Xcaliber along with nearly every other distance driver by innova. I love the boss, its so controllable, but I really wish it came in star. The flight characteristics of the groove look amazing. I can really see me throwing one of these in the near future. But is there any word on the available plastics?? or will it be champ only?

[JR Stengele]

I wonder if Innova is going to take a hint from Discraft and start stamping all their discs with the flight numbers now. That would be convenient for those that actually know what that means. I could see them doing that on Pro, Champ, and Star plastic but leaving it off the DX discs.

I am with you a 100% on that one.

[JR Stengele]

Can I just say this, Innova seems to lacking creativity in naming discs ... "the groove" ??? no originality and pretty lame

I agree. The boss was pretty whack as well. They need a little more creativity.

[dangitboy]

To comment on a post on the first page, I throw and Xcaliber along with nearly every other distance driver by innova. I love the boss, its so controllable, but I really wish it came in star. The flight characteristics of the groove look amazing. I can really see me throwing one of these in the near future. But is there any word on the available plastics?? or will it be champ only?

The next run of The Boss will in fact be in star. http://discussion.pdga.com/msgboard/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=862850&page=0&fpart=98&vc=1

That is from the "Ask Dave about Innova" thread on the PDGA board. Very informative thread where Dave Dunapice, who is the creator of Innova, answers all sorts of questins about discs. Also there was some good info there about the Groove.

[Fore]

I am with you a 100% on that one.


Same here.

[arrdee33]

Can I just say this, Innova seems to lacking creativity in naming discs ... "the groove" ??? no originality and pretty lame

Yeah.....boss is kinda cool, groove is ok. neither one great
id like to see a run of spiral tie dyes called "nebula"

[dangitboy]

Yeah.....boss is kinda cool, groove is ok. neither one great
id like to see a run of spiral tie dyes called "nebula"

Already a Discraft disc.

[arrdee33]

Already a Discraft disc.

oh really??? shows what i know

[thenamesben]

oh really??? shows what i know

Yeah the Discraft Nebula is the 2008 Ace Race disc.

[arrdee33]

Yeah the Discraft Nebula is the 2008 Ace Race disc.

are they spiral tye dye though? anybody got any pics?

[thenamesben]

This is the actual 08 Ace Race disc. Last I checked (an hour ago) Discraft hasn't started releasing the Nebula to the public yet.

[cc0049]

i actually have a first run boss and a regular run boss...bot same weight (174) and the first run is noticeably more understable....

I agree totally. I didn't know what people were talking about when they said the Boss was overstable. I have a first run also and it is definitely an understable disc...like a faster Beast.
It sounds to me like the Groove (if it flies like Innova says it will fly) will fly just like my first run Boss.

[AdamH]

I know sometimes one run of a disc flies a little different than another but the difference in the Boss is ridiculous.

I have three Champion Bosses all within a couple grams of each other. I don't have the equipment to weigh them, I'm just going off the weight on the back which I know can be inaccurate. I went out to a field and threw all three of them and this is what I found.

Two of my Bosses are understable, one is a Feldberg signature and the other is a tournament stamp, and they're both the maroon/burgandy color. I do put a lot of torque and snap on my throws and hyzer the crap out of them and if there's no headwind, they won't turn over too much. If I throw them flat (no hyzer), I can't get more than 200-250' before they turn over and hit the ground.

My other Boss is also a Feldberg signature but this one is pink. It flies much more stable, and feel like it's stability is between a Wraith and a Destroyer. I can let go of it nearly flat and it doesn't want to turn over at all.

Very inconsistent and disappointing.

[kpc2004]

I have 4 bosses right now, but I have thrown only 1 of them but I absolutly LOVE it, that is why I am anxiously awaiting the release of the groove. I plan on buying one or two the second I see it is available.

[colombo117]

Speed rated 13 and supposed to be more stable than a boss.
I was hoping that the Groove would be more stable to understable, but then again this was only a new test pressing of the disc.

The Groove is actually "less" stable than the Boss. The groove in the wing decreases stabilty as it did with the monarch (speed 12). Really if any one throwing under 400ft. (like myself) throws a disc like the groove (or boss) it will behave more stable than it is intended to be. Higher speed discs, i.e. groove and boss and many more, require players that are capable of hitting a higher throwing speed to make the disc fly like it was intended. If that speed is not met than the disc seems "overstable".

I am not saying you (TomJulio) can't throw fast enough. I am just saying that the groove "is" less stable than the boss, at least it is intended to be for the player that can throw it at its intended speed.

[sidewinder22]

I've got a signature 174g boss and its pretty overstable. My 174g flick is the only disc thats more stable in my bag and I've got lots of overstables, 4 firebirds, champ banshee, esp venom, force, crush, pulse, reaper, predator.
I'm not having much consistency with my one 174g boss. Its my longest disc i've forearmed 375' on football field, but nearly half of my drives are shanked or a bit off the fairway either direction. I'm not sure if its the cold weather or the rim or both. Im seem to have trouble with champion plastic in the cold. Maybe it will be better in the spring.

[ParkerJ152]

Here's the info Innova released today.

The Champion Groove is our newest Speed 13 Driver. The Groove features an innovative groove on the underside of the rim. This channel allows this speed 13 driver to be molded in lighter weights than our other wide rim high speed drivers. The Groove offers super fast, long, and straight flights. It can be thrown low or high and sidearm or backhand. If the Boss proved to be too much disc for you, get into the Groove.
Weight range: 165 to 175 grams.
Ratings: 13, 6, -2, 2

[cc0049]

I know sometimes one run of a disc flies a little different than another but the difference in the Boss is ridiculous.

I have three Champion Bosses all within a couple grams of each other. I don't have the equipment to weigh them, I'm just going off the weight on the back which I know can be inaccurate. I went out to a field and threw all three of them and this is what I found.

Two of my Bosses are understable, one is a Feldberg signature and the other is a tournament stamp, and they're both the maroon/burgandy color. I do put a lot of torque and snap on my throws and hyzer the crap out of them and if there's no headwind, they won't turn over too much. If I throw them flat (no hyzer), I can't get more than 200-250' before they turn over and hit the ground.

My other Boss is also a Feldberg signature but this one is pink. It flies much more stable, and feel like it's stability is between a Wraith and a Destroyer. I can let go of it nearly flat and it doesn't want to turn over at all.

Very inconsistent and disappointing.

I've heard similar experiences from a lot of people about the Bosses. I guess you just have to find one that you like and make sure you don't loose it, because you probably won't find another like it.

[cc0049]

The Groove is actually "less" stable than the Boss. The groove in the wing decreases stabilty as it did with the monarch (speed 12). Really if any one throwing under 400ft. (like myself) throws a disc like the groove (or boss) it will behave more stable than it is intended to be. Higher speed discs, i.e. groove and boss and many more, require players that are capable of hitting a higher throwing speed to make the disc fly like it was intended. If that speed is not met than the disc seems "overstable".

I am not saying you (TomJulio) can't throw fast enough. I am just saying that the groove "is" less stable than the boss, at least it is intended to be for the player that can throw it at its intended speed.

This is quite true. I think that a lot of people forget that for a higher speed disc to fly true to it's flight characteristics it has to be thrown a lot faster than a lower speed disc.

[Hamilton]

i had a new monarch, which i had NO problem getting to turn right when thrown flat...it wasn't extreme, but very predictable...my FRB turns similarly, although not as much, and the Feldberg boss (these are same color-dayglo orange, as well as same weight BTW) will go straight a bit, then fade out...

[Wheat]

I am not saying you (TomJulio) can't throw fast enough. I am just saying that the groove "is" less stable than the boss, at least it is intended to be for the player that can throw it at its intended speed.

Being less stable than the boss will make it more manageable for a weaker arm. Although yes, there will be a good deal of force involved in making the disc fly, it will be easier to throw than the boss.

[valkyriefb11]

Innova Groove (http://www.innovadiscs.com/discs/championGroove.html)

[discflinger]

Huh, Innova put the same specs for the groove as they did for the boss.

[Hamilton]

Huh, Innova put the same specs for the groove as they did for the boss.

huh? the boss is -1,3, and the groove is -2,2

http://www.innovadiscs.com/discs/comparison.html

[discflinger]

huh? the boss is -1,3, and the groove is -2,2

http://www.innovadiscs.com/discs/comparison.html

Yeah, I see that, but when I was clicking back and forth between the disc pages they both read 2 and -2. Not saying it's true, just weird; and no, I'm not drunk, yet.

[valkyriefb11]

Yeah, I see that, but when I was clicking back and forth between the disc pages they both read 2 and -2. Not saying it's true, just weird; and no, I'm not drunk, yet.

I saw that as well, the website was messed up the other day ... but they have since fixed it.

[whadafuxup]

dude u are so wrong-u must not have much snap-with my forearm and backhand I can make it fly like a sidewinder but much farther

[valkyriefb11]

dude u are so wrong-u must not have much snap-with my forearm and backhand I can make it fly like a sidewinder but much farther

the Boss?

[whadafuxup]

the groove

[thatguy]

I can't wait to give this disc a try, the first run boss is my money disc (second run flies much different)!

[JHern]

The word from players who have tried both is that the Groove and Boss have exactly the same kinds of flight characteristics (despite what Innova says about the numbers). Both are equally very stable and only good for throwing power well over 400 ft distance. In other words, only less than about 5% of all disc golfers will be able to use this disc. Don't bother with it unless you have a huge arm, or can use its characteristics for some kind of valuable trick shot at shorter distances. Both discs have wicked huge skips at the end of their flights, able to jump up well over 10 ft off the ground and surge forward.

The reason Innova made the Groove is so that they could trim some plastic off that huge Boss rim which would then allow them to make some lighter molds (the Boss is only available in 173-175g range).

Thus, Groove = lighter weight Boss.

[ghova]

When am i gonna be able to buy it?

[kpc2004]

i threw my groove for the first time today and i like it but it is definatly different from the boss. i was throwing my boss farther but i am used to it already and it is broken in. i have a feeling once i get a chance to throw it a while i am really going to like this disc

[Cradical]

The Groove is actually "less" stable than the Boss. The groove in the wing decreases stabilty as it did with the monarch (speed 12). Really if any one throwing under 400ft. (like myself) throws a disc like the groove (or boss) it will behave more stable than it is intended to be. Higher speed discs, i.e. groove and boss and many more, require players that are capable of hitting a higher throwing speed to make the disc fly like it was intended. If that speed is not met than the disc seems "overstable".

I am not saying you (TomJulio) can't throw fast enough. I am just saying that the groove "is" less stable than the boss, at least it is intended to be for the player that can throw it at its intended speed.

I agree with that 100%, I have an xcaliber which is supposedly 0 stablility, but when I get out and throw it as hard as I can, it always anhyzers for a while and then finally flips over, even if I throw it at the steepest hyzer angle I can.

[_.-Dut-._]

When is this thing going to be more readily available? I dont see them at Discgolfcenter or marshall

[kpc2004]

you can get one on ebay from LS DISCS

[borndasaur]

They are in stock at Old Town Outfitters in Rock Hill, SC. They have both first runs and some factory seconds. All available in the 166g-175g range.

[valkyriefb11]

the groove

haha thats makes more sense, I thought you were saying you were turning the boss over like a sidewinder ...

[PanicKJ]

I just drove to Rock Hill today (Old Town Outfitters) to pick up a Groove. I think after throwing it it is exactly what they say it is. Feels like a Boss, It is just as fast as a Boss. However it is not as stable as a Boss. The Groove went farther than my Boss before turning. I am very excited to see how this disc flies in a few weeks after I have gotten it broken in. I can see that this disc will set some personal distance records for sure.

[sidewinding]

I threw the groove yesterday on a football field alongside a boss. I stood at one goal post and threw aiming at the other goal post. The boss consistently flew staight and landed close to the other goal post on every throw while the groove cosistently turned right and did not land on the field at all but had similar distance to the Boss.

By slightly increasing the trajectory I was able to give the groove enough time to "comeback" to the center of the field but lost some distance doing this. I agree with the numbers. The groove is slightly more HSS than the monarch but is also slightly less LSS which makes them very similar discs. This works for me because I lost my monarch at Wilco last week. Now I don't have to replace it.

Side note: My wife loves Beasts for distance driving so I got her a 164 Grove. Once she got use to the wide rim the discs have very similar flights.

So the Boss is still the boss but the groove will probably find it's groove somewhere.

[JR Stengele]

What would be the benefits between a light weight groove versus a heavier one?

[_.-Dut-._]

Lighter weight one would be less stable, less resistant against wind, though I believe they glide further.

Im not trying to imply you shouldnt throw a lighter one, all of my drivers are 166-168.

I ordered this one in 170 due to I keep hearing how understable it is.

[JR Stengele]

Thanks for your input, I appreciate it.

[sidewinding]

What would be the benefits between a light weight groove versus a heavier one?

It takes less effort to get it up to speed. Anyone with a vagina or a small penis may benefit from using lighter weights. :|

[gusc2375]

Got mine in today. I like it more than my Boss(175). My Groove is easier to throw than my boss but didn't extend my range any. I have form issues I am still working on.

[JR Stengele]

It takes less effort to get it up to speed. Anyone with a vagina or a small penis may benefit from using lighter weights. :|

So what your saying is you have a 163g Groove then.

[sidewinding]

So what your saying is you have a 163g Groove then.

Mine hooks to the right....and so does my max weight Groove. ;)

[JR Stengele]

classic! Disturbing, but classic!:(

[craigd]

I threw a first run 166g today and was disappointed. I am no pro so take that for what it is worth...

[_.-Dut-._]

I threw a first run 166g today and was disappointed. I am no pro so take that for what it is worth...


Why were you dissappointed? Didnt get an ace? Turned it over? It went 300' past the hole?

[ShaZaun]

Hmmm... If it flies like a destroyer I might throw it in the water...............

[craigd]

Well, I throw side arm. Normally I can get a nice strait throw with just about anything. I threw this one and it shot immediately to the right. Ended up down the hill and into the thick. It took three of us ten minutes to find it. It looks and feels good but you know what they say about first impressions. I will throw one a few more times.

[solomon.trenton]

you cant judge a book by its cover right? it took my buddy five or six rounds to get used to his boss.

[JR Stengele]

Well I bought two, a first run and a second run to throw. I figured eventually the first run would be worth something. Already, the Boss first run is going for $50 on discgolfcenter.com so I figure it might payoff in a few years. Anybody else doingn this?

[elevated plastic]

It takes less effort to get it up to speed. Anyone with a vagina or a small penis may benefit from using lighter weights. So hilarious, so true

[valkyriefb11]

Well I bought two, a first run and a second run to throw. I figured eventually the first run would be worth something. Already, the Boss first run is going for $50 on discgolfcenter.com so I figure it might payoff in a few years. Anybody else doingn this?

I bought a first run becuase of what happened with the difference between the first run boss and later runs. I dont care if its worth something down the road, because by then mine will be broken in and not worth much :D although if I really like the first run I may buy a backup to have.

[biscoe]

took a 167 first run champ groove, a 172 first run champ groove, a 174 first run star destroyer, and a 168 first run star destroyer out for a little work this morning. the 2 destroyers reside in my bag currently so i actually know how to throw them at least to the degree i know how to throw anything.

imo the groove is a hair faster and stability is about the same. the 172 groove was definitely less overstable than the 167 which i found odd. neither groove was as overstable as the heavier destroyer, the 167 was more overstable than the lighter destroyer which has admittedly been worked in a bit.

[80playedin10states]

simply put, throw what ya know..

[jgentry]

I purchased a groove this weekend and tried it out. My first impressions are that it will not replace my destroyers, xcaliber, or surge. I am not a huge thrower but can get out over 400ft on good throws pretty regularly.

For me the groove flew almost exactly like the boss but did not come back as hard at the end of it's flight. It was also a little slower then the boss and had a touch more glide. It would pretty much flip up and turnover for about 75% of it's flight and then come back to just a little past it's original line. The boss does the same thing for me but then comes back about 20-30ft more at the end of it's flight.

I personally do not like the feel of the boss or groove. Both feel to large in my hand and very clunky. Do to the wide rim I do not feel as comfortable with my grip and I do not have the control I get with destroyers. On a good throw I can throw the groove and boss just a touch 10-20ft past my destroyers, but on average I still throw the destroyer farther.

If you did not like the boss don't waste your money on a groove, if you liked the boss you will probably love the groove!!!

[_.-Dut-._]

Finally got mine, much more stable then I suspected. Not having any luck with a long turnover shot with this beast. It seems to be plenty far though, prob going to take some flex shots for D, I dont believe I could hyzer flip this thing with any distance.

[BrotherDave]

I got a 174 first run groove and the first day it took all I had to turn it over, seemed much more overstable than advertised. I've only been playing for about a year and a half but at 6' 2" and 210 lbs I've gotten a decent arm fairly quickly. Has nice glide, I've had some really accurate side arm shots with it already. Oddly enough though, the very next day it felt more like the faster, less stable Destroyer it was supposed to be. I've gotten some weird lines out of this thing, especially trying to hyzer flip it. The Enigma would've been a better name.

[Tikomix]

Well it has similar turn and fad specs as a Valk but it doesn't fly as advertised... I "think" i know why. I studied the under profile very closely and I noticed that there is a very "sharp" raised level of plastic all around the rim. Almost like the lathing machine stopped short. It feels like if you hold it for a forehand throw, the sharp raised plastic my cut your hand...that's how sharp it felt. It's not for sure yet but I sanded that part down to be level then slightly round to the inside rim like my destroyer. My destroyer is 172 and I am RHFH dominate and I turn it over slightly on hard throws. My groove, like everyone else, felt EXTREMELY over stable..

[Tikomix]

Nope...the disc is just a lot more stable than advertised.

[aarikc17]

throw it for a while. i can hyzer flip mine just now. it took about 4 months of breaking in. but i have a big arm and do not see a normal arm strength guy flipping this disc. Def. not as advertised. The Fastness of a disc is overrated anyways. Go for a Wraith, Surge, Orc, or SL.

[Hamilton]

i don't think my groove is nearly as fast as my bosses...when i throw it it seems to have about as much high speed turn as it does fade, but i really have to crank it to make it do that...if i go 50% say it will fade pretty hard left (RHBH)