Rate this H2O hole

[Dave242]

How would you rate this hole? Love it or hate it? It is an eagle-able par-4 about 450' long straight and about 480' along the land. The street is OB - it is a dead end park street without much traffic or safety issues.

http://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=4592&stc=1&d=1270783675

[Dude]

Is there a gap to make throwing over the lake from the tee possible? If so I'd say it's awesome.

[frolf4444]

looks like a pretty fun hole to me

[Cgkdisc]

Looks pretty good. In a fantasy world, I would want the distance to the 250 mark be a little longer like 270-300 making the second leg shorter.

[Dave242]

I have never been a local to a course with this sort of water hole. How much howling would one expect from people losing discs in the drink?

[AdamCaudle]

I think I'd try and throw a big ol' hyzer over the road. That way I can get some good distance and not worry about the water, and play the fade so it won't go OB in the road either. Looks like a pretty cool and challenging hole.

[Olorin]

Dave,

With an avatar like yours you should know all about "howling".

[Dave242]

Looks pretty good. In a fantasy world, I would want the distance to the 250 mark be a little longer like 270-300 making the second leg shorter.

There is latitude in where the tee and basket could be, so the whole hole could be pulled 30' to the right.

But, my thinking was that you could do what you are saying by taking a bigger risk by attempting to go past the trees near where I have the first shot landing (go for a 300' shot) to have a shorter approach.

[Olorin]

A few thoughts-
-What is the level of the course? I hope it's Blue or White with a 480 ft par 4.
-On your drive do you need to get past the tree at the 250' mark? If it's a White level course, then getting past the tree on your drive could be challenging for White level players.
-If your drive lands behind the tree at 250 how hard is it to get around it?
-It'll be tough for RHBH throwers to keep their disc from turning into the water.

BTW, is this a real hole or just a hypothetical fantasy hole?

[Dave242]

I think I'd try and throw a big ol' hyzer over the road. That way I can get some good distance and not worry about the water, and play the fade so it won't go OB in the road either. Looks like a pretty cool and challenging hole.

I think I am going to take away that option with tee placement so no cars coming around the corner get spike hyzered. You will still be able to sneak a 300' hyzer shot, but the huge arms will not have a route.

If you land to the right of the trees (right of the white line), you will have a very tough/touchy shot to get through all the tree trunks to the pin (unless you get lucky land in a few areas that have decent routes to the pin)

[Dave242]

A few thoughts-
-What is the level of the course? I hope it's Blue or White with a 480 ft par 4.
-On your drive do you need to get past the tree at the 250' mark? If it's a White level course, then getting past the tree on your drive could be challenging for White level players.
-If your drive lands behind the tree at 250 how hard is it to get around it?
-It'll be tough for RHBH throwers to keep their disc from turning into the water.

BTW, is this a real hole or just a hypothetical fantasy hole?

I am kicking around ideas to propose next week since I just found out that some of the land I was planning to use looks like it will be a dog park. This idea for a hole has me intrigued, but pretty nervous.

This is real hole (very close to where you went to school) and can be viewed here (http://www.bing.com/maps/#JnE9eXAuNDIlNDAyMjA5NzM2JTJjKy04NyU0MDI4MzQ1NzIlN 2Vzc3QuMCU3ZXBnLjEmYmI9NDIuMjEwNjgyMzk4ODQ3MiU3ZS0 4Ny44MzM1MTAyNTYzMDQlN2U0Mi4yMDg3MzU5MjY2ODAyJTdlL Tg3LjgzNTczOTM2MDIyMjM=) (click on Arial-Bird's Eye).

It is a Blue level course (with Green/Red level players also in mind). I would put a short tee in for them, but that is not part of what I am after here.

I hear you on your concerns (I share them). You need to place your drive very well if you are playing save (250 or less tee shot) if you want to get your par of 4.

[RHINESEL]

I don't think that many people will chance bombing a 410 shot across the water. The average player just doesn't have the arm for it. Of course some will try and the lake probably will claim a few discs.

It would be a good forehand shot though so it goes over the water and fades right to land on dry earth.

[CwAlbino]

Looks like a great hole. I'd just go for it with a forehand down the right side of the water, let the disc fade on land when it wanted to. I wouldn't be able to hit the 410' every time but with a forehand along the right side, I'd always be on land :D

[815RocSolid]

that looks like a really fun hole, except i know i would be pissed if i lost a disc...how deep/clear is the water?

[JMONEY]

This looks like a fun hole. I know i could'nt make it over the pond and would have to break it down and be safe by going the noodle arm route.

[Countchunkula]

So is this hole going to give LHBH/RHFH players an advantage?
If there is a straight shot across the lake, these players could land past that clump of trees and have a much shorter approach that their RHBH counterparts.

I know you are a lefty, so is this hole supposed to make up for all the RHBH favoritism in local course design. :D

[Cgkdisc]

I have never been a local to a course with this sort of water hole. How much howling would one expect from people losing discs in the drink?
I think the anger from players for losing a disc is directed at the designer when the position of the water hazard is perceived as "unfair" or stupid such that it's difficult for players to play safe if they want to. However, if the design of the hole has more than enough room for a player to play safe even if it's a longer route, then players are more upset with themself if they try to go for it and don't make it since the designer did give them the option to play safe.

[littleshoe]

Looks like a hole I'd need to hit on Saturday's at about 4:00AM with a waterproof light and a snorkel.

[scarpfish]

That thing looks like a disc swallower. Other than that, awesomesauce.

I'd sure like a look from the tee though.

[jkdisc]

i love challenging water holes!

[Dave242]

Early this AM I went out for the first time to really look closer at the lay of the land (last night was a Google Earth, Bing Maps, and Google Street View). I am more excited/encouraged and less nervous than before. :hfive:

So is this hole going to give LHBH/RHFH players an advantage?
If there is a straight shot across the lake, these players could land past that clump of trees and have a much shorter approach that their RHBH counterparts.

I know you are a lefty, so is this hole supposed to make up for all the RHBH favoritism in local course design. :D

There is a straight shot to the right of the big tree that RHBH can punch in pretty deep and get within 200' of the pin. The branches on the big tree that looks to be hanging over the water at the landing zone are pretty high off the water already, and will probably be trimmed up.

This course will not be a lefty course for sure, but players will certainly need to have mastered a variety of throws to score well.

-If your drive lands behind the tree at 250 how hard is it to get around it?

There is actually more room low and less tree trunks than I was thinking. It will take skill, but will be far from punishing unless you land past the landing zone and well to the right.

that looks like a really fun hole, except i know i would be pissed if i lost a disc...how deep/clear is the water?

The water is semi clear, but I think there is a fair amount of duckweed in the summer (if I remember correctly). The water gets deep pretty quickly - it looks like about 4' deep 8' out. I have no idea how deep it is further out than that.

I think the anger from players for losing a disc is directed at the designer when the position of the water hazard is perceived as "unfair" or stupid such that it's difficult for players to play safe if they want to. However, if the design of the hole has more than enough room for a player to play safe even if it's a longer route, then players are more upset with themself if they try to go for it and don't make it since the designer did give them the option to play safe.

Good insight - thanks. In a sense, I want a lot of the 2 discers to be discouraged from over-running this course. I think the water, length and a few tightly wooded holes may keep some of them away. There is a wide open 9-holer 3 miles away where they can go. :)

Looks like a hole I'd need to hit on Saturday's at about 4:00AM with a waterproof light and a snorkel.

I know you are joking give the juxtaposition of scheming how to steal and your signature. :D But, this pond could be a gold mine for Katana and his ilk.

[Dave242]

That thing looks like a disc swallower. Other than that, awesomesauce.

I'd sure like a look from the tee though.

Here is a look (http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=42.210052,+-87.835382+&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=41.089062,79.013672&ie=UTF8&ll=42.210018,-87.835366&spn=0.001184,0.002411&z=19) from the tee. Drag the little orange man to the marker and look around. Thanks Google Streetview!

I am thinking the tee will be at the mid point of the 2 benches......that's right - with the big tree right in front of it. Branches would be trimmed higher of course.

[bikinjack]

Looks like an awesome hole. Lots of risk/reward.

[Steve West]

I'm more concerned with the street and neighbors to the right.

[Dave242]

Yup.....safety is a key concern. The street is a dead end park street. The only time it has traffic is between hockey practices. The current 9-hole course plays very close to it for 2 holes and over/along it for another. There has not been an issue, and this hole conflicts much less than any of those 3. Also, there is good visibility all along this stretch of road.

I am not sure of your concern for the neighbors, but if it is discs in their yards I have very small concern. The only way to get a disc in there off the tee is to thread a perfectly imperfect shot about 30 degrees off course, hit some smallish gaps bewteen trees go 170' and then have to be high enough to clear an 8' hedge.

I am not sure what really good design rules of thumb are to compensate for spray patterns of noobs, but most courses would have a hard time existing if they needed to accommodate that shot!

BTW, what are some good rules of thumb for that? I go by, imagine the worst shot you have seen....and design for 50% worse. The good thing is that the vast majority of wildly inconsistent players is that they usually can not throw very far.

[wolito]

I might try to throw it through the trees. If I was feeling really confident, then I may try to throw over the water. Looks like a reasonable enough hole.

[Steve West]

BTW, what are some good rules of thumb for that?

Here is a picture of the spray pattern for a mix of all kinds of players.
http://stevewestdiscgolf.com/images/SprayPattern.jpg

Here are the percent of players who land more than a certain number of feet off the line from tee to target (or whatever direction they throw).

Feet Wide / Left of / Right of
0 / 50.8% / 49.2%
15 / 40.4% / 39.1%
30 / 30.2% / 29.5%
45 / 21.4% / 21.2%
60 / 14.6% / 14.5%
75 / 9.3% / 9.7%
90 / 5.8% / 6.5%
105 / 3.4% / 3.8%
120 / 1.8% / 2.2%
135 / 1.0% / 1.3%
150 / 0.5% / 0.7%

(Where did my nice spacing go?)

Or, use my throw simulator (http://stevewestdiscgolf.com/ThrowSimulator.aspx) to graphically represent trouble areas, and it will count the throws that land there.

[Cyclops]

Here is a look (http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=42.210052,+-87.835382+&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=41.089062,79.013672&ie=UTF8&ll=42.210018,-87.835366&spn=0.001184,0.002411&z=19) from the tee. Drag the little orange man to the marker and look around. Thanks Google Streetview!

I am thinking the tee will be at the mid point of the 2 benches......that's right - with the big tree right in front of it. Branches would be trimmed higher of course.

Dave, when I looked at your google map link. It's shows a basket already next to the lake and the trail/street. Are you just redesigning the course layout?

[Dave242]

Dave, when I looked at your google map link. It's shows a basket already next to the lake and the trail/street. Are you just redesigning the course layout?

Redesigning and expanding (hopefully). Here (http://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11755) is a thread on it.

It is kind of cool - you can see at least 3 baskets from street view. Unfortunately, no one was playing at the time the pictures were taken - that would have been really cool.

[Dave242]

Here is a picture of the spray pattern for a mix of all kinds of players
........................
........................
Or, use my throw simulator (http://stevewestdiscgolf.com/ThrowSimulator.aspx) to graphically represent trouble areas, and it will count the throws that land there.

Great stuff. I had not been to your site for a while. I'll need to look into your modeling for spray patterns a little more, but the results I am seeing seem odd (and much more spray than I would have expected): For example, I set up a 250' hole with OB 75' off the left and right (150' wide fairway). Int & Geezers were OB 9% of the time while Adv & Pro were OB 11% of the time. I would think as skill goes up, so should accuracy.

[Karl]

Dave,

I think your statement can be answered by the fact that people (any people) don't throw in an area defined by parallel lines (as is your hypothetical fairway) - they throw in a vector. Remember a 74' throw (in your case) could never go OB, even if thrown 90-degrees "off line", yet a 500' throw could be OB if thrown just a few degrees off line.

Without doing the math, a 300' throw (Int's, et al) probably has about a 50% greater angle to land safely within opposed to a 450' throw (where your "Pros, etc." are throwing into).

Karl

[Steve West]

Great stuff. I had not been to your site for a while. I'll need to look into your modeling for spray patterns a little more, but the results I am seeing seem odd (and much more spray than I would have expected): For example, I set up a 250' hole with OB 75' off the left and right (150' wide fairway). Int & Geezers were OB 9% of the time while Adv & Pro were OB 11% of the time. I would think as skill goes up, so should accuracy.

What ratings did you use?

Accuracy does increase with skill, but that is often overcome by increased distance. So, yes the "vector" explanation holds.

For example, the standard deviation of the inaccuracy of a 1050 Open player is 7.4 degrees, while the standard deviation of the inaccuracy of a 750 Intermediate player is 15.2 degrees. So, the Intermediate player is about twice as wild. But, the Range of the Open player is 488 feet, which is more than twice the 212 foot Range of the Intermediate player.

[zenbot]

Just curious. What does the left side of the lake look like? Can you throw a hyzer over the water and land on the left bank?

[prerube]

I will rate it a zero so someone will start a thread about why I gave it a zero.

[prerube]

Honestly though, I do not like how close the road is. I might have penalized the course if I thought that there was a danger to passing motorists.

[mattdabbs]

Looks like it would play pretty similar to hole 16 at Cliff Stephens, 425 ft of water carry, 450 to the pin, water left and lots of trees down to have to shoot through once you are on the water's edge. That would be a very challenging hole with lots of risk/reward. I would go for it because it still gives people without the arm the ability to lay up and not lose a disc and the big arms a chance to gun at it.

[zenbot]

Here is a picture of the spray pattern for a mix of all kinds of players.
http://stevewestdiscgolf.com/images/SprayPattern.jpg

Here are the percent of players who land more than a certain number of feet off the line from tee to target (or whatever direction they throw).

Feet Wide / Left of / Right of
0 / 50.8% / 49.2%
15 / 40.4% / 39.1%
30 / 30.2% / 29.5%
45 / 21.4% / 21.2%
60 / 14.6% / 14.5%
75 / 9.3% / 9.7%
90 / 5.8% / 6.5%
105 / 3.4% / 3.8%
120 / 1.8% / 2.2%
135 / 1.0% / 1.3%
150 / 0.5% / 0.7%

(Where did my nice spacing go?)

Or, use my throw simulator (http://stevewestdiscgolf.com/ThrowSimulator.aspx) to graphically represent trouble areas, and it will count the throws that land there.
Wow. The throw simulator is impressive.

[Dave242]

Just curious. What does the left side of the lake look like? Can you throw a hyzer over the water and land on the left bank?

There are tall trees all along that side and not many gaps. And, then no gaps to get over the the basket which will have medium size trees all around it. I can not see anyone ever using that as a an option (except maybe in some drunken safari giddyap).

Honestly though, I do not like how close the road is. I might have penalized the course if I thought that there was a danger to passing motorists.

You know I had the same thought about this and never even considered looping around the lake until the dog park monkey wrench was thrown into my planning. The park guys actually recommended expanding the course into that area, but I told them it was too narrow. I do seriously have safety (and longevity) of the course in mind.

A couple of things to note: 1: you are throwing to the left of that last big tree off the tee (before the gap and the 2 little trees). With the slope down to the lake and the curve of the road, it would be hard to get out to the road.

Sure, some noob RHFH'ers will skip into the road (not too often) but things are visually different from the ground. Also, you see the parking spaces in the road near the top of the picture - that is the kind of street it is - not a busy thoroughfare. It is a dead end park street - not a busy neighborhood street. As you can see from Google Streetview, you can see cars coming from a very far distance. Talking about noobs - there will be short tee pad - probably somewhere near the 2 small trees at the 200' mark.

All that said, this may well be a concern to the park folks and they may nix this idea for a hole. I think their concern with the safety of the occasional fisherman will probably be higher though.

Looks like it would play pretty similar to hole 16 at Cliff Stephens, 425 ft of water carry, 450 to the pin, water left and lots of trees down to have to shoot through once you are on the water's edge. That would be a very challenging hole with lots of risk/reward. I would go for it because it still gives people without the arm the ability to lay up and not lose a disc and the big arms a chance to gun at it.

Come to think of it, it is a very similar hole design-wise to that.......almost identical but without the wind. That is a cool thought as that is a pretty well-renowned hole.

[Dave242]

What ratings did you use?

Accuracy does increase with skill, but that is often overcome by increased distance. So, yes the "vector" explanation holds.

For example, the standard deviation of the inaccuracy of a 1050 Open player is 7.4 degrees, while the standard deviation of the inaccuracy of a 750 Intermediate player is 15.2 degrees. So, the Intermediate player is about twice as wild. But, the Range of the Open player is 488 feet, which is more than twice the 212 foot Range of the Intermediate player.

To show you what I am talking about, here I have set up a 200' long hole with 3 OB circles on each side of the fairway each with 50' of distance from the centerline. I ran a simulation with "share of players" at 100 for Open and zero for the rest. Then re-ran with 100 for Advanced and zero for the rest. Etc.

It is showing that 22% of Open players would throw OB on a 200' hole that is 100' wide. That does not match my observations. For intermediates, it also shows 22% going OB.

I love this simulator, but want confidence I am using it correctly (and that its output is close to something meaningful/reliable). Am I doing something wrong with my setup?

http://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=4626&stc=1&d=1271099593

[solomon.trenton]

if you are looking for a shot to scare the hell out of people then this might be it!

[simpletwist]

Great hole in my opinion. I don't have the arm for the distance and being left handed, as long a LHBH as I could muster hopefully not fading too far left making for an easy approach and walking away with a birdie. (That's a birdie 3, as I score it)

[Steve West]

To show you what I am talking about, here I have set up a 200' long hole with 3 OB circles on each side of the fairway each with 50' of distance from the centerline. I ran a simulation with "share of players" at 100 for Open and zero for the rest. Then re-ran with 100 for Advanced and zero for the rest. Etc.

It is showing that 22% of Open players would throw OB on a 200' hole that is 100' wide. That does not match my observations. For intermediates, it also shows 22% going OB.

I love this simulator, but want confidence I am using it correctly (and that its output is close to something meaningful/reliable). Am I doing something wrong with my setup?

http://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=4626&stc=1&d=1271099593

Thank you! You found a bug. You're using it right, but it wasn't referencing the input distribution of players.

Here's what it should have done (I used bigger radii to approximate the parallel straight lines. At first, I thought maybe the intermediates were falling in the gap between two OB circles.)

http://stevewestdiscgolf.com/images/BugFixed.jpg

I started a Throw Simulator thread to prevent further thread drift. It has the link to re-download the file.

[Kwick]

update us with some pics if you get the chance.

i guess LHBH i'd throw a wasp from a standstill, trying to get it about 200, but easily safe. next shot is wide open, about 280 were I can throw the wasp again, hopefully having a birdie depending on the opening to basket with those deep trees

should always be a par though with 2 shots with a mid avoiding the danger of water (unless there's some wind)

[Dave242]

It turns out that this hole will almost certainly not be in the proposal. If anything it might be an added tournament hole. It would probably be better suited for that anyhow than for ticking off the general public with lost discs. :)

I was scrambling to get a sanity check when I originally posted (since a curve ball was thrown my way right before a conversation I had and I had to find a few more holes to replace some that were being taken away).....and the responses were very helpful.

Here is a picture (from Google Maps StreetView) looking back from where the basket would be (it would be probably 10-15' from the V tree in the middle of the picture towards the water). The tee would be in the dark shadow the you see right next to the left of the V tree across the water

http://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=5020&stc=1&d=1273088862

[Kwick]

I guess that gives an added bonus to playing a tournament, being able to play a temp hole that is sweeeeet.