Midrange Discs (Besides the Roc)

[JILF]

What midrange discs, if any, do you use besides the Roc(or Buzzz, since its pretty much the same thing)? I know that almost everyone uses at least one Roc, but besides that, no one really talks about any other midrange discs. Thanks.

[Fore]

I use a Stingray and have been thinking about picking up a Q-Sentinel for very windy days and short range skip shots.

[Donovan]

What midrange discs, if any, do you use besides the Roc(or Buzzz, since its pretty much the same thing)? I know that almost everyone uses at least one Roc, but besides that, no one really talks about any other midrange discs. Thanks.

I don't use Roc's. I do use the Discraft Stratus in Elite-X plastic as my main midrange disc. I use it for most of my approach shots too. I have a 175 and a 168 in my bag right now.

[jedwards]

...I do use the Discraft Stratus in Elite-X plastic as my main midrange disc...

I 2nd this. Love my Stratus. Very dependable, straight flyer.

[RustyP]

I know that almost everyone uses at least one Roc, but besides that, no one really talks about any other midrange discs. Thanks.
That's because the Roc can do pretty much everything :D

I'm a Roc thrower, but I also always have a Q Sentinel in the bag for headwinds. I used to carry a Champion Cobra too...very similar to a broken-in Roc...but now I only carry one if I'm playing a very rocky course where my DX Rocs might come out with chunks missing. There have been times when I needed a VERY flippy midrange, and in those situations I'll pull out a DX Cobra (old Ontario mold).

[Rbuzz9]

While I usually go with one of a few Buzzz's , i Used a Star Gator recently and i liked it. They are very overstable and a bit slower. Really good for wind.

It doesnt have nearly the distance of a Buzzz but it was really accurate when i used it.

- you can throw as hard as you like and it will always come back predictably.

[thenamesben]

DX Cro! Out of the box they are stable, but beat it up a little bit and they will do whatever you want it to. I have three in my bag, a nice broken in one for sweet turnovers, another for straighter shots, and one for a straight, nice fade shot.

[YonderScott]

I've been playing with lots of mid-ranges here lately. I have a couple of dx Rocs in different stages or wear, star skeeter, a first run dx skeeter, dx spider, dx wolf, dx stingray, and a champ panther. They all do things a little different, but I love the roc, star skeeter and wolf the best. Those 3 will cover almost any shot I need a mid-range for.

[valkyriefb11]

Ive never owned a roc in my life ... I know that terrible ;)

I love my DX stingray for any midrange shot, its by far my most dependable midrange. this is also my favorite anhyzer disc as its one of the few I can consistently anhyzer with predictability. Id recommend giving a stingray a try. I also have a DX cobra and I recently picked up a champ panther both of these also work well . The best recent addition to my midrange arsenal was the Buzzz. I absolutely love this disc and it. has already begun to replace my other midranges.

[Lewis]

I've had a Coyote for a while and like the way it handles. If you throw it full strength it's understable with huge glide, but at shorter ranges it handles more or less like an Ultimate disc. I also have a Cro that's a little on the overstable side. Both are Champion plastic.

[ERicJ]

In my bag now:


169 Pro D Drone
175 Star Shark
172 Star Cro
169 & 170 Pro Rhyno (in case I lose one)
169 & 170 DX Stingray (in case I lose one)

ERic

[edge3281]

I use a dx roc, elite-z wasp, champion Coyota and Star Skeeter. All depends on the shot but most of the time I will use my Coyota. I can handle that disc better than all of my midrange discs. Like Lewis526 said it handles like an ultimate disc and I think that is why I like it so much.

[gwillim]

Comet.

[borndasaur]

Add a vote for the Star Stingray. Also like the DX Wolf, Leopard, and a lightweight Champion Banshee (yeah, I know, it's a driver, but it works for short hyzers).

[taxman]

I'm anxious to try a Stingray. I want a disc that will turn hard left for me (LHBH), but with a little more distance than my Ching Stinger. I'd like to see how that one does.

[bazkitcase5]

I use 2-3 Rocs usually depending on situation and whats needed, but I also carry a Z Wasp for head wind and mid range shots where I can count on it not turning over

I also use the Z Glide for longer range turnover shots (Discraft considers it more of a low speed drive, but it feels and flies like a mid range) - I would consider this one of the better discs for newer players to learn with

[sidewinding]

I love DX Skeeters. When new they have the same high speed stablility rating as a Roc but slightly faster with more glide and much less fade at the end, which means you don't have to throw them as hard as a Roc to get the same distance and very straight line. What more could you want out of a midrange. It is basically a Roc with more speed, more glide, and much less fade.

The trick with any midrange is not to overpower it. I think people like Rocs because they are more forgiving when you overpower them on the long approaches. I carry a roc but only use it for long approaches. I have found that for everything <175' the skeeter beats the roc hands down. For everything longer than 175' the roc will not turnover and the skeeter sometimes will.

[Jungle Tim]

Its not that fashionable anymore, but a Comet is a stunning midrange, especially as the recently released ESP limited edition came out. There is a Z plastic run out there if you can track one down it would be money well spent, if you don't like ill give you a few Benjamins for it!

Brand spanking new they are straight with very little fade. After a few rounds the comet shows its true colours. This disc will not fade. Seriously, it wont fade. Ive thrown many a crap anhyzer that stalls out and then just floats down vertically!! No idea how this happens because every other stalled disc fades out fast for me. I wouldnt say this is my 'go to' mid but this on reliable mo fo if the shot cannot fade even an inch.

Please note - from new this disc does become fairly understable fast and then seems to settle down. I throw a day glow yellow 177g ESP.

[CurtisBugbee]

I use the Buzz and the Wasp, a nice combo. Buzz for straight and turnovers and the Wasp for hyzers. I like the Buzz in ESP because it beats up a bit but not too fast, whereas I like the Wasp in Z so it stays nice and stable for as long as possible.

[landon77]

What midrange discs, if any, do you use besides the Roc(or Buzzz, since its pretty much the same thing)? I know that almost everyone uses at least one Roc, but besides that, no one really talks about any other midrange discs. Thanks.

I use a star spider, star and dx shark, pro roc, and star gator

[Aaron D'Angelo]

I use my DX Shark, DX Kite, DX Roc, ESP Meteor (New), ESP Buzzz, and ESP Storm. I have too many now, but I can't seem to give up any of them. The DC's are marking my getting away from Innova, just loving the other flights and plastic.

[swellerdiscgolf]

First ever disc was a Champ Panther (13 yrs ago) still used today as one that will hold the annie line when I need it to. I also use a Buzzz-d for straight shots, and I love my dx Shark for gliding (147 g i think)

[t i m]

Shark -- any plastic. DX are straight, premium plastics are overstable (IMHO, the best beginner disc there is).
Coyote - Champ plastic, super straight and glidey
Comet - similar to a Coyote, but most people consider the Comet a better all-around disc.
Gateway Element and Element-X - excellent midranges, like a lower-profile Roc with a little more glide.
Gateway Demon - an overstable pig, but super, super predictable.
Spider - dead straight
Wasp - great when they break in. Very similar to KC/Champ Rocs.
Aero - great, glidey discs that are old-school but still rock.
Stingray - amazing rollers, decent fliers in premium plastics.
Hawk - small diameter and straight with hyzer, similar to a Gator or Cro.
Shockwave - similar to a Champ Roc; overstable and only come in premium plastic
Aurora MS, QMS - Millennium midranges that are straight and very precise
Sentinel - discussed above.

lots of others, but those are the top of my head. Of course... I throw Rocs and Buzzes (and occasionally an Element, Demon or Shark).

It's not a matter of whether or not there ARE other midranges. It's just that most players have found that the Roc and Buzz are the best discs for the most shots and have the best value overall... Hundreds of Pros are unlikely to be wrong. Though I would suggest, in the interest of giving all the manufacturers a fair shake, that you also try an Element and a Sentinel... those are both well worth the time to try. And a Coyote or a Comet if you want something totally different from a Roc/Buzz that is still an excellent midrange.

[JR Stengele]

Champion cobras and esp flx buzzz

[thenamesben]

I've had a Coyote for a while and like the way it handles. If you throw it full strength it's understable with huge glide, but at shorter ranges it handles more or less like an Ultimate disc. I also have a Cro that's a little on the overstable side. Both are Champion plastic.

How did you get a Cro in Champion plastic? Fundraiser disc?

[solomon.trenton]

What midrange discs, if any, do you use besides the Roc(or Buzzz, since its pretty much the same thing)? I know that almost everyone uses at least one Roc, but besides that, no one really talks about any other midrange discs. Thanks.

i dont like the feel of my roc (12xkc edition) so i sold it. i do really like my buzzz and my shark.

[ZMan44]

I use a gator for severe hyzer approaches. I have a lot of midranges but I use my star kite, gator on occasion, and other than that I will use a Warlock (anhyzer) or a Voo Doo. If the shot is 175 feet or under I will go with a Warlock or Voo Doo.

[bazkitcase5]

I think people like Rocs because they are more forgiving when you overpower them on the long approaches.

no, people like the Roc because when thrown with proper technique (which most pros have, hence the reason pros like rocs), it is like having a string attached to it

a slightly worn roc can be made to throw hyzer, straight, or anhyzer and on a line, so where you throw it is where it goes (a worn flat buzz acts the same way in my experience) - take a 300 ft. straight shot and throw the roc straight at it with correct power and it'll go the straight line, then almost at command, drop by the basket(never hyzering out at the end like most stable mid ranges) - I've yet to see another mid range with these characteristics, which is why these are the 2 most popular mid ranges...

the down side to a roc is it is very unforgiving - most drivers or other mid ranges will mask bad form and still fly somewhat decent, but if you throw a roc with bad form (too much wobble caused by OAT being a main culprit), it will not fly very well at all, much less where you want it to go - which is why I stand by my assertion that most people who can not throw a roc, probably have bad form - throw into a headwind with too much wobble and it will probably turn immediately, but I've seen pros throw a beat roc into a 10-20 mph head wind, and it stayed perfectly straight, because he threw it smooth with no wobble

[Adam Schneider]

I love Discraft mid-ranges. I carry these (I know it's overkill and I don't care):

FLX Drone
Z Wasp
Z Buzzz
X Comet
X Stratus

[blang]

The 2008 Ace Race (Nebula) is a good stable choice as well. Great for windy days like today.

[lewisville150]

X Stratus - when straight is absolutely necessary. Careful not to overthrow this disc.
X Comet - echo the comment earlier about the dying quail action. Nice when needed.
ESP Impact (2007 Ace Race disc) - Really like this one. So far, it holds any line I throw. Enough glide for long approaches and understable enough for short, tricky approaches.
Roc - first disc I ever purchased. Will still use when score counts.
Buzzz - Have one, it will not submit to my will. Maybe I have a bad one but I can't use it.

[sidewinding]

take a 300 ft. straight shot and throw the roc straight at it with correct power and it'll go the straight line, then almost at command, drop by the basket(never hyzering out at the end like most stable mid ranges)

I would bet less than 1% of all disc golfers could get a Roc to go 300', even with perfect form.

Most people have trouble getting a distance driver 300'.

[discflinger]

I would bet less than 1% of all disc golfers could get a Roc to go 300', even with perfect form.

Most people have trouble getting a distance driver 300'.

Nah, more like 10%.

[Hamilton]

just got the roc a couple weeks ago and i like it pretty well, but i have had my star shark (168) from the beginning and i love it...

[bazkitcase5]

I would bet less than 1% of all disc golfers could get a Roc to go 300', even with perfect form.

Most people have trouble getting a distance driver 300'.

thats a bit of an off the wall statement... because people who can't throw a driver 300' do not have perfect form, far from it - so why would you assume that less than 1% of all disc golfers couldn't throw 300' with perfect form?

I can throw a roc 300' easily and my form is far from perfect

regardless, I was making a point about why most people do not like a roc - you can substitue the 300' with any shorter distances and it wouldn't matter, the point stands - most people who do not like a roc, probably can not throw it properly, or they simply prefer a flat buzz

[bazkitcase5]

and going on that subject, take a look at the power requirements on Joe's flight chart:

http://gottagogottathrow.com/discgolf/pdf/JoesFlightChart1.pdf?osCsid=3cbc7b72b10d1d56eafaee 2b94b9a810

if you can not throw over 300', then throwing a distance driver really isn't helping you all that much anyway, unless it is really understable

[garublador]

Throwing a Roc 300' isn't really all that difficult. As long as there isn't anything really wrong with your form you should be able to get a Roc out that far. If you believe you have decent form and can't get a Roc that far, try throwing it higher. They do need height to get distance.

The problem is that the newer, super fast drivers promote the types of problems that make that impossible for many golfers. I'd guess that 10 years ago the percent that could do that would be higher than the percent that can do that now because the same technique was required to throw Roc as was required to throw the distance drivers of the time. In other words, they didn't learn the same bad habits that player learn now.

One reason pro's like the Roc is because it will hold golf lines for high power players. While most choose not to throw them much past 350', they can get them out to 400'+ without having to resort to a distance line. Having a really reliable disc with good resistnce to turn, good carry, a reliable fade that isn't overpowering and excellent range control that can cover most stuff from 250'-350' is an extremely valueable disc. The Roc happens to be the one disc that excels at all of that stuff.

Buzzzes are really good, but lack the range control and reliable fade of the Roc. They're better on lower lines, though (which actually makes range control more difficult). Wasps don't really have the same carry as a Roc and the fade can be more than you really want in a mid. Those two discs complement each other well, which is why you see both of them in most Discraft player's bags. If you have both in your bag there's always the oppertunity to throw the wrong one, though.

The Element and Element-X are another two discs that are nearly as good as the Roc but not quite there. They're being retooled anyway.

Most of the flippy midranges are controlable for lower power players, and make good uber-newbie discs, but if you put too much on them they get squirrley (anyone who can throw a Roc 300' can put too much one) and they're normally horrible in the wind. Ask just about any golfer (disc or ball) about needlessly backing off on drives and see how good of an idea they think it is. For consistancy, I'd take a 80% power putter throw over a 50% power mid throw any day.

I find that many people choose the flippy mids but then use them as approach discs. In nearly all cases a stable putter will perform as well, if not better for those types of shots (yes, I have tried both). Throwing a stable putter 200' is quite a bit easier than throwing a Roc 300'. I'd expect anyone who's reasonably proficient at "catch" can thow, say a Wizard, 200'. IMO, anyone serious enough about disc golf to talk about it on the internet should make learning to throw a stable putter 200' a top priority. It's probably the second most important skill in disc golf right after putting.

[WillA]

My current midranges - ESP Impact and Optimizer. I used to have an Aurora but I lost it. I liked it a lot though and will probably buy another one.

[Midnightbiker]

I use an Impact and a Star Coyote.

[gusc2375]

Pro D Drone great fade and good in the wind
Esp X Z buzzz
old school MRV in X and Z plastic
CryZtal Z Challenger

I have tried the ROC in several plastics I just didn't like how it felt in my hand. Flew just fine not 300 ft fine but OK. The MRV was my goto disc get me out of the woods disc. The Buzzz took over that spot for me. Goes where I aim it, has saved par many times for me. all this is just my opinion

[Disc Chainy]

My go-to midrange disc is a first-run DX Skeeter. I actually prefer the DX Skeeter to the Star Skeeter. The star seemed really floppy and got flippy on me if I put any real power into it. I've actually never thrown a ROC, so I don't really know what the hype is all about.

[Three Putt]

no, people like the Roc because when thrown with proper technique (which most pros have, hence the reason pros like rocs), it is like having a string attached to it

a slightly worn roc can be made to throw hyzer, straight, or anhyzer and on a line, so where you throw it is where it goes (a worn flat buzz acts the same way in my experience) - take a 300 ft. straight shot and throw the roc straight at it with correct power and it'll go the straight line, then almost at command, drop by the basket(never hyzering out at the end like most stable mid ranges) - I've yet to see another mid range with these characteristics, which is why these are the 2 most popular mid ranges...

the down side to a roc is it is very unforgiving - most drivers or other mid ranges will mask bad form and still fly somewhat decent, but if you throw a roc with bad form (too much wobble caused by OAT being a main culprit), it will not fly very well at all, much less where you want it to go - which is why I stand by my assertion that most people who can not throw a roc, probably have bad form - throw into a headwind with too much wobble and it will probably turn immediately, but I've seen pros throw a beat roc into a 10-20 mph head wind, and it stayed perfectly straight, because he threw it smooth with no wobbleJust to give another opinion...I'm a torque monkey. I put OAT on everything. For my particular bad form issues, the Roc is FANTASTIC. I can overthrow-wrist roll-flutter a Roc and it will compensate and still give me a good rip. I find that it masks a lot of OAT. For me hands down I get better distance and a more accurate throw from a ROC thrown with OAT than any other mid-range.

At the other end of the spectrum for me is the Discraft Comet. If you screw up your form with a Comet, it will turn over and die. If you overpower a Comet, it will flip and burn. However if you actually figure out what you are doing, the Comet is fantastic. It is longer than a Roc if used properly. It probably has the widest variation of results from bad form/good form throws of any disc that I've seen. You see it called a "turnover mid" all the time, but that is because the folks that call it that can't throw it. Thrown properly, it will hold any line you put on it.

I field throw Comets all the time to help me work on my form. If I can ever solve my form issues, the Comet will be the mid range in my bag. But for right now, I still suck so the Roc stays! :D

[Omega SuperSloth]

does anybody else use fairway drivers for their midrange shots and their midrange for long or windy putts. i do, my t-bird has got me quite a few 100- to 200 footers and some have to make long birdie putts on super windy days by the bay

[DirtyMittenDG]

ANY BUZZZ

[blang]

For me the hardest thing about throwing a DX roc was the fact that it changes drastically between the first time you throw and three months later. When I first got my Roc I was just beginning so I would throw it expecting to hyzer out. Soon after I noticed that I was throwing very straight. My drives were also getting straighter so I assumed it was better form causing this and not the disc changing. The last round that I used the same Roc was on a windy day. It turned over every throw. Again I thought it was my technique regressing in combination with the wind. The fact was I was throwing it the same and it was more broke in than my previous rounds. That is when I stopped using DX for my mid range discs. Because I am still improving, I need to know if the change is something I am doing or if it is the disc. I now use more consistent Discraft plastic for my Mids. When the Rocs were in the sweet spot I loved them but when they were beat into flippy, they were too unpredictable for me.

[discflinger]

Pro D Drone great fade and good in the wind
Esp X Z buzzz
old school MRV in X and Z plastic
CryZtal Z Challenger

I have tried the ROC in several plastics I just didn't like how it felt in my hand. Flew just fine not 300 ft fine but OK. The MRV was my goto disc get me out of the woods disc. The Buzzz took over that spot for me. Goes where I aim it, has saved par many times for me. all this is just my opinion

Dude, I'm still pissed as hell they discontinued the MRV. That disc was so versatile. I'm sure we'll be battling it out on e-bay for these sonsabiatches.

[garublador]

For me the hardest thing about throwing a DX roc was the fact that it changes drastically between the first time you throw and three months later. When I first got my Roc I was just beginning so I would throw it expecting to hyzer out. Soon after I noticed that I was throwing very straight. My drives were also getting straighter so I assumed it was better form causing this and not the disc changing. The last round that I used the same Roc was on a windy day. It turned over every throw. Again I thought it was my technique regressing in combination with the wind. The fact was I was throwing it the same and it was more broke in than my previous rounds. That is when I stopped using DX for my mid range discs. Because I am still improving, I need to know if the change is something I am doing or if it is the disc. I now use more consistent Discraft plastic for my Mids. When the Rocs were in the sweet spot I loved them but when they were beat into flippy, they were too unpredictable for me.Most people that end up choosing high end plastic discs over the Roc do it becasue it takes too long to break a DX Roc into straight, so if they loose their beat one and don't have a backup they have to wait several months before they have a straight one again.

You may get slightly more consistancy (but not enough to matter with mids, IMO) with higher end plastic discs, but it will slow down your progression when it comes to learning to control discs. When you talk to avid Roc throwers you'll find that most of them have Rocs that are years old that are still predictable and useful to them. The discs will generally break before they get too flippy to control.

[t i m]

Most people that end up choosing high end plastic discs over the Roc do it becasue it takes too long to break a DX Roc into straight, so if they loose their beat one and don't have a backup they have to wait several months before they have a straight one again.

You may get slightly more consistancy (but not enough to matter with mids, IMO) with higher end plastic discs, but it will slow down your progression when it comes to learning to control discs. When you talk to avid Roc throwers you'll find that most of them have Rocs that are years old that are still predictable and useful to them. The discs will generally break before they get too flippy to control.

A great solution to this are the Ontario Rocs. They start out much straighter than the Rancho Rocs or even the San Marinos. I've become a big fan of the Ontario Rocs in Star plastic. They start almost completely straight and have a very slow beat-in process because of the premium plastic, but they still feel just like regular Rocs in the hand. Highly recommended.

[bazkitcase5]

haha, sorry this is trying to turn into a Roc thread when it was not intended to be

there are a lot of good mid ranges and I personally could do without a Roc if I had to - different discs do different things for different people - a buddy of mine who has been playing less than a year has fallen in love with the squall because it is his go to mid range that will go perfectly straight, but as he gets better, he will realize that the squall is an understable disc that is good for long mid range turnover shots (which is what I would use it for, but I use the glide instead)

I just do not like seeing people criticize a disc simply because it is usually them that can not throw it properly

[JILF]

I would like to thank everyone who made this a thread about Rocs when it was clearly not suppose to be. See thread title: Midrange Discs (Besides the Roc)

[AdamH]

I know a few people mentioned this already but I love my Q Sentinel, my bag just isn't the same without it. I like it for hyzer as well as anhyzer shots; it holds a turnover line really well for me.

I was really liking the DGA Shockwave for big hyzers or strong headwinds for a while, but it got beat in pretty quickly and isn't very mean anymore :(

It's things like this that make me think champion (or equivalent) plastic is the only plastic for me.

[sidewinding]

DO NOT try a DX Skeeter.

I don't want anyone else having the same advantage I have.

[blang]

Most people that end up choosing high end plastic discs over the Roc do it becasue it takes too long to break a DX Roc into straight, so if they loose their beat one and don't have a backup they have to wait several months before they have a straight one again.

You may get slightly more consistency (but not enough to matter with mids, IMO) with higher end plastic discs, but it will slow down your progression when it comes to learning to control discs. When you talk to avid Roc throwers you'll find that most of them have Rocs that are years old that are still predictable and useful to them. The discs will generally break before they get too flippy to control.


The point is the DX Rocs change over time and so does the game of a first year player. More consistent plastic allows a beginner to know that their form is what is causing the disc to turn over and not the fact that it is a change in the disc. If I had years under my belt I might agree with you about the choice of Rocs but I think that my experience shows that DX Roc is not the best Mid for everyone.

The DX Roc acts like atleast three distinct discs from out of the box, to beat straight, to beat flippy. In fact many of the people that use DX Rocs (including my past self) have several in different states of condition for different kinds of shots. 3 to 4 discs, all different with the same Roc logo constantly changing in our bags does not sound beginner friendly to me. I personally would much prefer a Z buzz or and ESP Nebula that appear to throw the same out of the box as they do in older states.

If a player has several years playing experience they should be getting close to knowing what kind of shot their arm will produce and be able to go with the flow of different DX Rocs.

A couple of other things of note. The Rocs has been around for years and has always has a good reputation with the pro players. It is only natural that a disc that was heavily promoted and been around forever would have the most people comfortably throwing it. Obviously more experienced players would be able to throw it or a disc that they have thrown more times. This level of comfort is a big unknown part of the reputation of the Roc.

I think that many players could play just as well with a Shark, all things being equal including amount of practice but many players will discount the Shark because they are told it is a beginner disc and the Roc is the Mid of the pros. You just look better with a Roc in your bag. :)


BTW, Your sample used of Roc throwers that have Rocs that are years old that are still predictable and useful to them is a little bit bias. That would be like a Discraft guy saying many people that have quit using the Roc agree they are too unpredictable. Long story short, If the Roc was everything to everyone we would not have so many discs with slight variations.

Do you care to eleberate on this part...
You may get slightly more consistency (but not enough to matter with mids, IMO) with higher end plastic discs, but it will slow down your progression when it comes to learning to control discs

[3456789]

I use a DX Eagle for midrange shots and I will use a DX Roc for long putts and windy putts.

[3456789]

does anybody else use fairway drivers for their midrange shots and their midrange for long or windy putts. i do, my t-bird has got me quite a few 100- to 200 footers and some have to make long birdie putts on super windy days by the bay

I use a DX Eagle for midrange shots and I will use a DX Roc for long putts and windy putts.

[gusc2375]

Dude, I'm still pissed as hell they discontinued the MRV. That disc was so versatile. I'm sure we'll be battling it out on e-bay for these sonsabiatches.

Not me as soon as I found out they quit making them I bought or traded for about 6 or 7 of them I can spare you one if you need it. I only got my hands on 1 in Z plastic the rest are elite X (the best slow wear plastic made) I wish they would make a small run in ESP. Just for old time sake.

[garublador]

The point is the DX Rocs change over time and so does the game of a first year player. More consistent plastic allows a beginner to know that their form is what is causing the disc to turn over and not the fact that it is a change in the disc.You have to be throwing Rocs > 400' to turn over even a beat Roc unintentionally. Big arm pros carry old beat up Rocs that aren't too flippy for them. Unless it's completely thrashed (much, much older than a year or spend a year only throwing skips on asphalt to the point where the bead is gone) if your Roc is turning over it's not because of your form improving, it's becasue of a flaw in your form.

A couple of other things of note. The Rocs has been around for years and has always has a good reputation with the pro players. It is only natural that a disc that was heavily promoted and been around forever would have the most people comfortably throwing it. Obviously more experienced players would be able to throw it or a disc that they have thrown more times. This level of comfort is a big unknown part of the reputation of the Roc.This only shows that the Roc is a very good disc. It doesn't show that it isn't objectively better than any other disc.

I think that many players could play just as well with a Shark, all things being equal including amount of practice but many players will discount the Shark because they are told it is a beginner disc and the Roc is the Mid of the pros. You just look better with a Roc in your bag. :)The top players could beat us with any assortment of discs you give them. I'm not saying there aren't other good or even great mids, just that they aren't as good as the Roc. With the exception of freak runs, Sharks get squirrley for high power players. Roc's don't. Rocs also fly well for lower power players. Which sounds like a better choice, a disc that can't be overpowered or one that can? Which would you guess to be more preditable in the wind?

BTW, Your sample used of Roc throwers that have Rocs that are years old that are still predictable and useful to them is a little bit bias. That would be like a Discraft guy saying many people that have quit using the Roc agree they are too unpredictable. Long story short, If the Roc was everything to everyone we would not have so many discs with slight variations.I'm not talking about sponsored players. I'm talking about the ones who choose the Roc when they have all other options. Again, this was just another way to illustrate the point that the Roc is predictable and stable for high power players even when beat.

Do you care to eleberate on this part...Sure. Slower discs in lower end plastics are easier to control. Their higher end counterparts tend to be more difficult to turn and have a stronger fade that's more difficult to control. As higher end discs beat up they tend to loose high speed stability faster than low speed fade and end up getting squirrley (i.e. it's difficult to control if/when they turn, how much they turn and when/if they fade). Lower grade plastic discs tend to loose fade faster than high speed stability and controlling the turn is quite a bit easier. Because of this, learning to shape lines and control turn of discs is much easier to do with slower disc in low end plastic than any other discs out there. It's possible to learn good line shaping with a Star TL, but it will be a lot faster and easier with a DX Gazelle. You can try to learn line shaping with a Wraith or Destroyer, but you'll almost definetly end up learning bad habits that will make driving with putters and mids impossible and will limit how far you can throw all of your discs.

[t i m]

Not me as soon as I found out they quit making them I bought or traded for about 6 or 7 of them I can spare you one if you need it. I only got my hands on 1 in Z plastic the rest are elite X (the best slow wear plastic made) I wish they would make a small run in ESP. Just for old time sake.

I think I've got on Z plastic MRV still at the house if anyone needs it. I think it's in pretty good shape, probably at least 7/10, orange, no name on it that I recall. Trade offers?

[gusc2375]

I think I've got on Z plastic MRV still at the house if anyone needs it. I think it's in pretty good shape, probably at least 7/10, orange, no name on it that I recall. Trade offers?
What are you looking for check out my profile of disc let me know none are marked for trade but we can work out something. Do you know the weight???

[gusc2375]

I would like to thank everyone who made this a thread about Rocs when it was clearly not suppose to be. See thread title: Midrange Discs (Besides the Roc)

I would like it to be about the MRV sad day's when disc's go away

[ambroze]

Go for the Star Cro, it's stable and for great consistently!

[leathercash]

I don't know if anyone has mentioned it but,I love my Champ Cobra. Loads of understable glide when thrown hard. It's a very reliable mid-rage straight flying disc thats great in tight technical fairways.

[JR Stengele]

Amen brother. It is all about the champ cobra. Did someone say they no longer make the mrv???? Is this true?

[blang]

You have to be throwing Rocs > 400' to turn over even a beat Roc unintentionally. Big arm pros carry old beat up Rocs that aren't too flippy for them. Unless it's completely thrashed (much, much older than a year or spend a year only throwing skips on asphalt to the point where the bead is gone) if your Roc is turning over it's not because of your form improving, it's becasue of a flaw in your form.

Are you saying that no one will turnover a Roc unintentionally under 400 feet? Most players will never have perfect form.


This only shows that the Roc is a very good disc. It doesn't show that it isn't objectively better than any other disc.

My goal was to point out the snowball effect of how the Roc has gained popularity. Yes, a disc has to be good to begin to get a good reputation but hype is also a big contributor. More people will try Rocs than similar discs because of the hype they hear and not because they have experience with every mid range disc available. More users = more followers and more followers = more hype and so on. I am not discounting that the DX Roc is a good disc I am just saying its popularity is also due to its Hype.


The top players could beat us with any assortment of discs you give them. I'm not saying there aren't other good or even great mids, just that they aren't as good as the Roc. With the exception of freak runs, Sharks get squirrley for high power players. Roc's don't. Rocs also fly well for lower power players. Which sounds like a better choice, a disc that can't be overpowered or one that can? Which would you guess to be more predictable in the wind?

I said many players not just top players. I used the example of the Shark because it has a negative reputation instead of the positive reputation of the Roc.

By the way, A Nebula is more stable for me in the wind than a Roc.


I'm not talking about sponsored players. I'm talking about the ones who choose the Roc when they have all other options. Again, this was just another way to illustrate the point that the Roc is predictable and stable for high power players even when beat.

Neither was I. I was speaking of the Discraft fanboys that prefer the Buzz that exist similar to DX Roc fanboys. I could have also inserted people that prefer KC Pro Rocs.


Sure. Slower discs in lower end plastics are easier to control. Their higher end counterparts tend to be more difficult to turn and have a stronger fade that's more difficult to control. As higher end discs beat up they tend to loose high speed stability faster than low speed fade and end up getting squirrley (i.e. it's difficult to control if/when they turn, how much they turn and when/if they fade). Lower grade plastic discs tend to loose fade faster than high speed stability and controlling the turn is quite a bit easier. Because of this, learning to shape lines and control turn of discs is much easier to do with slower disc in low end plastic than any other discs out there. It's possible to learn good line shaping with a Star TL, but it will be a lot faster and easier with a DX Gazelle. You can try to learn line shaping with a Wraith or Destroyer, but you'll almost definetly end up learning bad habits that will make driving with putters and mids impossible and will limit how far you can throw all of your discs.

Do you feel that a out of the box DX Roc has less fade and easier to turn than a star Stingray? (you do not have to answer this) The point is disc selection can give you the same abilities as the different stages of the Roc without sacrificing consistency.

Notice I was comparing DX to other plastics, not comparing a fairway driver or distance driver to a mid range discs. We have no disagreements on this issue that I see.

Lower grade plastic discs tend to loose fade faster than high speed stability and controlling the turn is quite a bit easier.

This is the EXACT point I was making. I WANT CONSISTENCY more than I want a disc that gets increasingly more this or more that quicker.

I know you like DX Rocs and I am glad that they work for you but I am telling you that I want plastic that throws the same for as long as possible and if consistency is my main factor you have to agree that DX would not be the best for me. If constancy is what a other players want, a DX Roc is not the best choice. We agree on almost everything we just disagree on what is the best for our particular situation. For me it is consistency. For you it is versatility I am assuming. I think not think that either side should be discounted when choosing a mid.

[blang]

Go for the Star Cro, it's stable and for great consistently!

I agree with Star plastic if consistency is a main concern.

[blang]

I would like to thank everyone who made this a thread about Rocs when it was clearly not suppose to be. See thread title: Midrange Discs (Besides the Roc)

I guess you cannot have a mid discussion without dedicating at least have to the ROC:)
Sorry if I contributed. I hope my other disc comparison to the DX Rocs was at least considered on point.

[gusc2375]

Amen brother. It is all about the champ cobra. Did someone say they no longer make the mrv???? Is this true?

Yes it is. It was discontinued a couple of years ago.

[SimonCarr]

I don't keep all of these in my bag, but here are the midrange discs I thorw:


Midnight Z Buzzz - similar mold to first run, holds any line

CE Roc - can you say hyzer?

Pro D Hawk - mad distance for a midrange, long and straight, great for turnovers too

Medium Wizard - about anything between 100-200 feet

ESP Wasp - like the Roc, but faster out of the hand

Pro Leopard - Okay, its a fairway driver but i throw it as a midrange and driver.

[Ryan P.]

just to note it again on this page, this thread is about mids other than Rocs. There's a lot to say about Rocs, a ton, and there are plenty of threads on this website dedicated to just talking about Rocs.

On the topic of the thread, I also throw Buzzzs and Stingrays. I didn't think i needed to have a straight mid other than my beat Rocs, but i started to realize that while their glide is great, they don't keep their height as well. Anyways, I won a Buzzz at a tourney and loved it. I can throw it low, and it stays almost straight (depending on the power/hyzer i throw it with it might stay straight). And it's ESP plastic, so if it hits dry grass or dry dirt, then it just glides along on the ground for more distance.
Later i got a stingray. I wanted one simply for shorter rollers or cut rollers. then i started throwing it on anhyzer shorts just as a joke. I thought that, because it has such a sharp, quick turn, that it would just flip over and dive into the ground, unintentionally doing a cut roller. but it didn't. It was an uphill shot, and it held it's height quite well, probably going 40' to the right on a shot 200' out.
After that, i figured i could try to learn forehand approaches for when it was the best option. I've been able to throw forehand because of playing ultimate, but i hadn't been able to throw one short with any disc i have except for with my beat to death wraith-which i would love to never throw an approach with again. the stingray was much to understable for any distance of forehand approach, but the buzz worked beautifully. i can't throw it on longer approaches, but i usually can pick up a short-range driver for those.

Hope this helps anyone trying to make a decision about discs.

[garublador]

Are you saying that no one will turnover a Roc unintentionally under 400 feet? Most players will never have perfect form.
Correct. If you are turing over a Roc it's because of a flaw in your form, not because of the disc. If you're OK with the flaws you have an have no intent on improving then picking the discs that work best with your flaws will help your score. I'm assuming people want to improve.

As a side note, once you get to throwing Rocs 300'-320' your "form" is pretty solid. That isn't horribly difficult to reach for most people as long as they follow good directions. To jump to throwing them 350'-370' it takes an improvement in timing.

My goal was to point out the snowball effect of how the Roc has gained popularity. Yes, a disc has to be good to begin to get a good reputation but hype is also a big contributor. More people will try Rocs than similar discs because of the hype they hear and not because they have experience with every mid range disc available. More users = more followers and more followers = more hype and so on. I am not discounting that the DX Roc is a good disc I am just saying its popularity is also due to its Hype.That is true, but that doesn't mean the Roc doesn't live up to the hype. It's still the best midrange.

By the way, A Nebula is more stable for me in the wind than a Roc.So are the Wasp, Demon, Drone and Sentinal.


Do you feel that a out of the box DX Roc has less fade and easier to turn than a star Stingray? (you do not have to answer this) The point is disc selection can give you the same abilities as the different stages of the Roc without sacrificing consistency.Part of your assumption is wrong. A Stingray, while still a good disc, is not as consistant as a beat up Roc. The Stingray was designed as a distance driver. It wasn't designed to have a controlable turn, it was designed to turn, but not burn when thrown high and eventually fade out. It was made for distance, not consistancy.

It also makes disc selection more difficult. Choosing the wrong "beatness" of Roc might make you miss your mark by 10'-20'. Choosing a Stingray over a beat Roc will likely make the miss double or triple that.

This is the EXACT point I was making. I WANT CONSISTENCY more than I want a disc that gets increasingly more this or more that quicker.But you don't get more consistancy, you get a less consistant disc that changes slower and gets less consistant rather than a disc that retains consistancy and changes faster but still gradually.

I know you like DX Rocs and I am glad that they work for you but I am telling you that I want plastic that throws the same for as long as possible and if consistency is my main factor you have to agree that DX would not be the best for me. If constancy is what a other players want, a DX Roc is not the best choice. We agree on almost everything we just disagree on what is the best for our particular situation. For me it is consistency. For you it is versatility I am assuming. I think not think that either side should be discounted when choosing a mid.Again, my arguemt is that you are not getting more consistancy. You're choosing less consistant discs based on false assumptions. I'm arguing that you will get the most consistancy out of a DX (or KC, acutally) Roc because of it's ability to handle high power but it still flies well at slow speeds, it's consistant, but not overpowring fade and the ease at which you can control range via hyzer line and height. It also does not loose consistancy as it beats up, it just gets easier to intentionally turn and doesn't fade as hard.

An understable mid in high end plastic will be more difficult to control when and how much it turns, making you wonder if it's you or the disc causing the turn and an overstable mid will mask OAT and not help your correct problems. If the Roc isn't flying well you know it's a technique issue.

Another thing that's nice about the Roc is that it, IMO resonds well to OAT. OAT in one direction will cause it to turn over (this is the issue most pepole who can't throw Rocs have) and OAT in the other direction will cause it to hold a hyzer and fade more. You can perform turnovers, striaght shots and hyzers with a "money" beat Roc...and that stage lasts a long time.

just to note it again on this page, this thread is about mids other than Rocs. There's a lot to say about Rocs, a ton, and there are plenty of threads on this website dedicated to just talking about Rocs. I don't have the power, but I invite the mods to move this part of the conversation to another thread. IMO, the arguments back and forth here contain a ton of really useful information for anyone looking to improve their throw. I couldn't have asked for anyone to pick out the most (very understandibly) common misconceptions about disc selection better.

Using the DGR forums as an example, there are a few types of players that post there:

1. Those that were good before they joined.

2. Those that believed blang's arguments at first (they've very common misconseptions), but then came around and believed the arguments I'm making and went from only getting cut rollers out of Rocs to throwing them >300' (I'm in this group, btw).

3. Those that still believe blang's arguments and struggle to throw anything over 300' and can't throw Rocs over 200' without getting a cut roller.

4. Newbies who believe my arguments or people in group 2 who are revamping their form and throw putters ~200', mids 250'-280', and drivers 300'-320'.

[blang]

Correct. If you are turing over a Roc it's because of a flaw in your form, not because of the disc. If you're OK with the flaws you have an have no intent on improving then picking the discs that work best with your flaws will help your score. I'm assuming people want to improve.

Do you really feel that the DX Roc is the best Mid for every person no matter what the situation?
I have heard at least one person in this thread that says the Roc in fact masks his imperfections.


That is true, but that doesn't mean the Roc doesn't live up to the hype. It's still the best midrange.

Again, are you saying that is the the best mid for every player?

So are the Wasp, Demon, Drone and Sentinal.

No they are not because "I" have never thrown them. Are you assuming because you have exp. with these four discs I do as well?


Choosing the wrong "beatness" of Roc might make you miss your mark by 10'-20'. Choosing a Stingray over a beat Roc will likely make the miss double or triple that.

But you don't get more consistancy, you get a less consistant disc that changes slower and gets less consistant rather than a disc that retains consistancy and changes faster but still gradually.

Have you seen "me" enough to make that call? Honestly, it seems very egocentric to think that every player reading this forum that does not throw Rocs are either misinformed or trying to hide flaws.

Again, my arguemt is that you are not getting more consistancy. You're choosing less consistant discs based on false assumptions. I'm arguing that you will get the most consistancy out of a DX (or KC, acutally) Roc because of it's ability to handle high power but it still flies well at slow speeds, it's consistant, but not overpowring fade and the ease at which you can control range via hyzer line and height. It also does not loose consistancy as it beats up, it just gets easier to intentionally turn and doesn't fade as hard.

So the DX Roc gets easier to intentionally turn over yet does not get easier to unintentionally turn over? This seems to defy logic.

Consistency is defined as "free from variation or contradiction". Yet you admit that DX plastic has a great deal of variation based on beatness.

Innova describes Star Plastic as:
"Retains INNOVA flight characteristics longer than DX or Pro Plastics" (See definition of Constancy)

Innova Describes Champion Plastic as:
Retains INNOVA Disc Flight Ratings longer than other plastics.(See definition of Constancy)

Innova Describes DX plastic as:
Wears in progressively to provide new and varied flight characteristics.

You can have many reasons that DX is better for a mid range selection than other plastics, but consistency is no one of them unless you want to have Innova to change there descriptions as well.

I am not the only person that chooses Star or ESP for mids because they want the same throw time after time. If admittedly Innvova states that DX wears in progressively and I tell you that the "progression of wearing in" hurts my game worse than using other consistent plastics, then what's the issue?

An understable mid in high end plastic will be more difficult to control when and how much it turns, making you wonder if it's you or the disc causing the turn and an overstable mid will mask OAT and not help your correct problems. If the Roc isn't flying well you know it's a technique issue.

Another thing that's nice about the Roc is that it, IMO resonds well to OAT. OAT in one direction will cause it to turn over (this is the issue most pepole who can't throw Rocs have) and OAT in the other direction will cause it to hold a hyzer and fade more. You can perform turnovers, striaght shots and hyzers with a "money" beat Roc...and that stage lasts a long time.

So if it masks OAT, would it not be better to use a disc that forces the use of better form? It sounds like the DX Roc could be hiding flaws. Which is it?


I once heard someone say "If you're OK with the flaws you have an have no intent on improving then picking the discs that work best with your flaws will help your score. I'm assuming people want to improve."


Using the DGR forums as an example, there are a few types of players that post there:

1. Those that were good before they joined.

2. Those that believed blang's arguments at first (they've very common misconseptions), but then came around and believed the arguments I'm making and went from only getting cut rollers out of Rocs to throwing them >300' (I'm in this group, btw).

3. Those that still believe blang's arguments and struggle to throw anything over 300' and can't throw Rocs over 200' without getting a cut roller.

4. Newbies who believe my arguments or people in group 2 who are revamping their form and throw putters ~200', mids 250'-280', and drivers 300'-320'.

Also there are people that tend to think that there is only one right way to play disc golf and if you are not throwing the discs they like, you must be flawed or misinformed. If you go to a tournament you will see Pros stepping up to the the same hole and throwing it very differently. Some many throw sidearm, some may throw backhand, and some may throw over handed and not one player will be using the same exact selection of discs. Yet when the scores are added up, the top card will be the players that do what is best for them and that may not be necessarily what is best for you (or me for that matter). It is very egocentric to think that every reader of this forum should be throwing the DX Roc just because of your positive experiences.

You may be surprised to hear it, but the DX Roc would be one my top recommendations for most users if I were to be asked.


Also do not discount my comments by making look as if I personally unintentionally throw cut rollers with a DX Roc because this is not the case. In fact my mid range game is probably the strength of my game at this point. I simply prefer other discs than the DX Roc. Even though the DX Roc is the most popular mid with the most avid fans, it is by no means the only mid range choice. I think you are doing the readers of this thread a disservice by implying that if the reader is not throwing a DX Roc they will never be able to throw a putter 200 feet or they will struggle to get any distance from their drives. The fact that this thread exists is proof of that other options of improvement are other there. (Unless you feel that everyone that is not using the DX Roc is simply misinformed or hiding bad form)

What you are stating is a very popular thought and should be noted but it is naive to think that your way is the only way.

[garublador]

LOL, I got this my first submission attempt:

The text that you have entered is too long (11854 characters). Please shorten it to 10000 characters long.

Do you really feel...Yes, I am saying the Roc is objectively the best midrange. I am not saying there are not other, very good midranges that exist, though.

The fact that this thread exists is proof of that other options of improvement are other there. (Unless you feel that everyone that is not using the DX Roc is simply misinformed or hiding bad form)They could be purposely throwing inferior discs for other reasons, too. I carry discs I know are not the objectively best discs for their slots. I don't pretend that they aren't just because I throw them, though. I'm also not saying it's impossible to learn with different discs just more difficult and slower to impossible, depending on the disc.


So the DX Roc gets easier to intentionally turn over yet does not get easier to unintentionally turn over? This seems to defy logic.Correct! Now you're starting to understand why the Roc is so great. Not many discs act like this. The Roc happens to be one of them.

Consistency is defined as...You're making a couple assumptions here. First is that there will be a noticeable flight difference from throw to throw with a Roc. Unless you're really damaging the disc (gouging it on something sharp, skidding across asphalt to noticably wear the bead, ect) there will be very little to no noticable difference from throw to throw or proabaly even round to round. It's more like month to month, assuming you play several rounds per week.

Second you're assuming that I'm talking about consistant flight charictaristics over the life of the disc, not the ability to get consistant flight patterns from throw to throw. With discs that are understable out of the box very small changes in your throw will result in larger changes in flight than you'd see with a beat version of a stable disc. That makes it more difficult to control if and when the disc turns, how much it turns and if it fades back at all. If all of that is more difficult to control, the disc is, by definition, less consistant. The consistancy I value is knowing what the disc will do when I throw it. If that changes over time that's fine, but I'll always know what it's going to do.

Innova describes ...That's true, but it doesn't say what happens to the discs as they stray from the flight ratings, and all discs will. Champ and Star discs tend to get more difficult to control and DX discs get easier to control (I'll admit this is somewhat disc dependent, but applies to midranges).

I am not the only person that chooses Star or ESP for mids...If that's true you're either beyond needing help from internet forums (a pro rated golfer) or you're not trying to improve anymore. Neither of those groups would care about what I'm writing about, but anyone trying to improve their game, which I would assume includes a vast majority of posters here, will benefit from what I'm saying. It's not just my opinion, it's information gathered by several people who have taught dozens of disc golfers and had conversations with top level pros and personalities (including Dave D.) in the sport. I promise, I'm trying to help.

So if it masks OAT...A DX Roc will mask some OAT, but not as much as a driver. If your goal is to only eliminate OAT, then running a drill with all super flippy discs is your best bet. I wouldn't recommend those discs one the course, though.

Also there are people that tend to think that there is only one right way to play disc golf...One right way to play, no. There is a most efficient way to improve, there are discs that are objectively better than others. The "whatever works for you, man" philosophy is extremely popular in disc golf and it has kept many disc golfers from improving. There is a best way to throw a free throw, there is a best way to pitch a baseball, there is a best way to serve a tennis ball and there is a best way to throw a disc. I don't see why it's so hard for people to believe that there is a best way to put together a disc golf bag, to select a midrange or to learn to throw. Why would disc golf be the only sport where the most effective methods and equipment be totally based on the individual?

You may be surprised to hear it, but the DX Roc would be one my top recommendations for most users if I were to be asked. No surprise here. You haven't said anything bad about the Roc.


Also do not discount my comments by making look as if I personally unintentionally throw cut rollers with a DX Roc...Again, or choosing other discs for other reasons. If you can throw a Roc and choose not to there isn't an issue. You'll just be missing out on the advantages you get from the Roc. If you can't throw a Roc at all there is definitely a problem. Picking a different disc because of that is just masking a major problem. What I'm suggesting is that many of the ideas you're avocating are promoting problems that will cause a player not to be able to control a Roc.

What you are stating is a very popular thought and should be noted but it is naive to think that your way is the only way.Again, only way, no. Best way currently known, yes.

It's very common to find someone throwing high speed drivers for all drives (100'-250'), mids for all approaches and putters only for putts. They don't drive with mids or putters because they all flutter and turn into cut rollers and they approach (50'-100') with mids because they must exist for a reason and putters are called putters, not aproachers. These same people could go from that to throwng putters 200', mids 250' and drivers 300'+ in a relatively short amount of time if they were to drop the high end plastic and choose slow, stable molds. They don't do it because they don't know better or because they believe some myths. There is little in the way of coaching and information exchange for rec players and some of the best ways to learn to throw (only throwing slow discs in low end plastic) seem counterintuitive, especally when manufactuers are constantly talking up their new, uber fast drivers and high tech plastic.

I play in a doubles tournement a copule times with a friend of mine who's much worse than I am. We play intermediate and the first round is worst shot. We've ended up on the last card after that round both times. Every single disc golfer, besides me, on the bottom card both times was exactly as I described in that paragraph above. It's still a small sample, but when it's 14 for 14 disc golfers who can't break 250' it's worth noting.

I think some of my comments have come off as being too specific and are getting convoluted. I haven't meant to imply anything about your game. I'm arguing against ideas that tend to breed mediocrity. Nothing you've argued has been something I haven't seen argued dozens of times. I've argued many of those points myself in the past. That's the reason I've been providing counterpoints. It's because they are very common arguments, not because I think you're personally wrong.

I'm making a few different points.

1. While there are other, excellent midranges out there, the Roc is objectively the best. Can you learn nearly as fast throwing the Buzzz, QMS or Element? Definitely. Will you be throwing the best midrange? No.

2. Unless you're using stable (not overstable) molds, you can't know if flight problems are because of you or the disc. The list of discs that fall into this category is relatively small compared to the number of discs being produced.

3. Slow, stable molds in low end plastic are the easiest to control and the easiest with which to learn disc skills. They provide the most consitant flights. The list of discs that fall into this category is relatively small compared to the number of discs being produced.

4. High end plastic tends to beat up (yes, it does beat up) to get squirrley. Understable molds beat to get squirrley = inconsistant.

5. Learning fewer molds when developing will teach you different skills and that will lead to lower scores. Lots of discs in high end plastic will cause more disc selection errors and will stunt your disc skills growth. Given 6 months to learn someone with only a Wizard, Roc and Cyclone will get better than someone with 2 putter molds, 3 mid molds and 5 driver molds. This will be the most obvious on a course unfamiliar to either golfer.

6. There is a best way to do things, there are discs that are objectively better than others.

Consessions I will make:

1. Choosing sub-optimal discs isn't a big deal as long as you're still choosing good discs. Buzzzes are good, Wasps are good, the QMS is good (I won't list them all now). This doesn't get around the idea that low end plastic is easier to learn with.

2. Once you have a good set of skills you have the option of choosing from many more discs with little to no negative concequences. As long as you can throw the best discs, choosing something else isn't bad.

3. High end plastic has its place. Overstable drivers and some distance drivers (once you have the arm) are awesome in high end plastic. Guys throwing Teebirds over 400' prefer Champ or Star, but the rest of us will get better results from DX.

4. It is possible to make progress by ignoring what I'm saying. It won't be as fast or take you as far, though.

[SimonCarr]

wow... get over the Roc man.

Its a good freakin disc - one of the best ever made. I know that the Roc is predictable, good in the wind and gets good distance... but its not the best mid range for everyone. There are plenty of touring pros who choose the Buzzz over the Roc, even some of the ones sponsored by Innova still throw the Buzzz.

DX Rocs are great when they are beat in.. or you can buy a Pro D Hawk and throw the exact same long turnover shots.

Champion Rocs are great, but who wants to spend $50 on a disc? I'd rather pick up 3 or 4 other discs for that price.

I say that players should throw what works best for them. The stamp on the top of the disc doesn't matter. If you can throw it well, then keep on throwing it. If a Roc works, then by all means use it... but it is ridiculous to say that it is the best disc ever made and everyone would be a better player for throwing them.

[gusc2375]

wow... get over the Roc man.

Its a good freakin disc - one of the best ever made. I know that the Roc is predictable, good in the wind and gets good distance... but its not the best mid range for everyone. There are plenty of touring pros who choose the Buzzz over the Roc, even some of the ones sponsored by Innova still throw the Buzzz.

DX Rocs are great when they are beat in.. or you can buy a Pro D Hawk and throw the exact same long turnover shots.

Champion Rocs are great, but who wants to spend $50 on a disc? I'd rather pick up 3 or 4 other discs for that price.

I say that players should throw what works best for them. The stamp on the top of the disc doesn't matter. If you can throw it well, then keep on throwing it. If a Roc works, then by all means use it... but it is ridiculous to say that it is the best disc ever made and everyone would be a better player for throwing them.

I agree Get over it. I have tried your Precious DX Roc it did not fit feel right in my hand. Glad it works so well for you My Buzzz's work for me, My drone in Pro-D plastic is great for shots that need to finish Left (RHBH)

[DirtyMittenDG]

This might be the most words ive ever seen on 2 pages of a disc thread, lol!!

Like I said before though.........THROW A BUZZZ!!!

[shirfan]

How about some more Shark input? It's described as "essentially a beadless roc" in the dgsweden database.

As a player still in my first year, I'm not so worried about the Shark getting squirrely at high power, because I'm not yet a big arm. I throw them for anything except annies when a Gazelle seems too long and putter too short (roughly 150-200ish right now), and I have more confidence in knowing where my Sharks will go than any other disc in my bag. I'll also drive with them on certain holes, especially if I can hyzer into a dogleg.

What will the Roc teach me that the Shark can't (if anything)? What's the advantage to using beat in mids rather than say, turning over a Leopard, as I do now?

[blang]

To sum up our discussion within the discussion.

Blang thinks that different players may benefit from mids other than the DX Roc.

garublador thinks that the DX Roc is the best for every player and if you are choosing another "inferior" disc you are making your progress more difficult. Also, If you are able to throw another mid better than a DX Roc you have flaws in your game that you could get rid of if you chose to throw a DX Roc instead.

I plan to withhold any additional rebuttal because I think we now have enough typed supporting both sides for people to judge for themselves. I assume the people much better and much worse than either one of us will come to their own conclusion on what theory is correct.

Finally, I will say being from Atlanta and having seen the different styles of Maddox and Smoltz both being highly effective over the years, it was very hard for me to withhold commenting on your "there is a best way to pitch a baseball" comparison. :)

[john campbell]

I've always liked my DX Shark, but I keep going to the Organic Hemp Element from Gateway. I can really control it - straight on, anhyzer, you name it. It loves to be used! I just bought a Roc two weeks ago, but the Element has seen more play than any other midrange I've owned.

[Jimb]

I use a Stingray and have been thinking about picking up a Q-Sentinel for very windy days and short range skip shots.

Ive never owned a roc in my life ... I know that terrible ;)

I love my DX stingray for any midrange shot, its by far my most dependable midrange. this is also my favorite anhyzer disc as its one of the few I can consistently anhyzer with predictability. Id recommend giving a stingray a try. I also have a DX cobra and I recently picked up a champ panther both of these also work well . The best recent addition to my midrange arsenal was the Buzzz. I absolutely love this disc and it. has already begun to replace my other midranges.

There's no way I'm making it through this entire thread at this hour so I hope that you haven't already decided on what new midrange to buy. But I totally agree with the two quotes above. A Stingray makes an excellent counterpart to a Roc. For me anyway, a straight to left turning shot takes my Roc. As straight to right turning shot takes a Stingray. The two of them totally bridge the gap for me between drivers and putters.

[Jungle Tim]

the comet is now out in Z plastic!! Woo! Get that one!

[dobbins66]

Only Mid I carry is the Cro - I have a 172g Star, 175g Star and a 175g Champ. It serves my purpose and feels better on release than any other I have thrown.

[MrDger]

For me, a Star Cro is my number 1 midrange disc. Right out of the box, it flies perfectly straight with hardly any fade, so it's quite predictable.

I recommend it to anyone who is looking for a new reliable midrange.

[tamahawk]

I also have a Cro (DX), just bought it a couple weeks ago, and I really like it a lot. I pretty much throw innova discs exclusively, but i do have one discraft disc that i have trouble parting with, an elite-x breeze. i can throw the breeze flat and depend on it to turn gently right, then turn back toward the basket.

[JHern]

Z Glide. I can control it like a surgeon.

[cocopop]

I have always thought Rocs were over rated, but the Buzzz is the one disc in my bag that will always be there. It's versatility, accuracy, and range are what a Roc SHOULD aspire to be.

That said, my bag has 3 mids; Buzzz ESP, Stingray Star, and Spider Champ. I have always loved the Stingray. As an understable midrange disc goes, I have never found an equal. The Spider is the disc i go to from about 75-100 if I want to go for the chains and not worry about skipping 30 feet from the basket if I miss. The Champion plastic is near rubberry and seems to stick to the ground if I am off my mark.

I recently ordered a Meteor in the ESP plastic. I hear lots of praise about it's being the perfect compliment to a Buzzz, and recently threw a friend's. It was just slightly less stable than the Buzzz. While the Buzzz flies Straight for most of it's flight, then gently fades to the left at the end, the Metoer Flies DEAD STRAIGHT to 1% understable. I am very excited about this disc and can't wait to get mine.

By the way, great topic! With all the new POWER, BIG ARM, drivers that have been comming out lately, (love that Boss!) no one wants to talk about anything else.

[Texconsinite]

The 2008 Ace Race (Nebula) is a good stable choice as well. Great for windy days like today.

I completely agree. I love that disc.
For backhand
168 Ace Race Nebula- For longish shots with a fade at the end
180 Broken-in Dx Roc- For long turnover shots

Forehand
170 Star Gator- Hard hyzers, tight wooded shots, s-curves, rollers


Star Gator is my everything disc. Need to get one in Champ plastic so it will be even more overstable. Anyone thrown a champ gator?