PDA

View Full Version : Can a course be designed HERE (via Maps)?


Gamecock
04-19-2010, 10:44 PM
It may be a bit premature to post about this here, but I'm gonna do it anyhow...

I think it would be cool if DGCR members (and maybe some experienced course designers here) could help me to come up with a preliminary suggested layout for a new disc golf course in a local TOWN park. After talking to the Chairman of the Summerville, SC Town Council Parks Committee, a new DG course is at least being considered!

Below is the overall park layout + links to larger/close-up view & Google maps.

http://www.parkcirclediscgolf.com/gahagan-big.jpg

http://www.parkcirclediscgolf.com/gahagan-golf.jpg

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=gahagan+park+summerville+29485&sll=33.009149,-80.170712&sspn=0.008169,0.021973&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Gahagan+Rd,+Summerville,+South+Carolina+2948 5&ll=33.007332,-80.176849&spn=0.008169,0.013797&t=h&z=16

Assume for a sec you had a plot of land the size and shape of a square city block. How would YOU layout 9 holes? There are some trees to use here too...

The new DG course would go on land that's essentially never used except for overflow parking when people come to watch the town's 4th of July fireworks here. The fireworks show costs about $10K and they considered NOT having it this year as a cost-cutting measure. But, it's now been decided to have it.

The area of the park we are talking about here is essentially the top right corner of park property - below Owens Drive and left of W. Boundary St.

There is a driveway entrance to this property that is always closed by chain. This could be an entrance to a course, but it might need to remain closed (except for July 4th). There are about 9 old used tires on this land and they could be rolled to show where the various baskets could be placed.

My thinking is, putting a basket out in the middle of this field is just asking for a car to knock it over on July 4th. I'd feel better if all were "protected".

After going out there to scope the property out in person, I couldn't help but notice a bunch of old rusting metal bleachers. If those are disassembled and hauled off to a scrap metal yard, that might be enough cash to buy 9 Innova Discatcher baskets! If not, well, the difference in cost is still very affordable!

If you zoom in all the way at Google maps, you can see the line of old rusting bleachers. Those need to go anyhow as they may be habitat for snakes now.

If you use don't want to use above link to view the area in Google Maps, try the phrase "Gahagan Park Summerville SC 29485" and you will find it. The empty field we are talking about is to right + above the 4 large softball fields together. It would be nice to have another 9 going all the way around the outer edge of the park, but that might cause problems during the softball playoffs which are held here annually (and brings in revenue to town).

Has anybody else tried using the forum to get layout feedback/suggestions in advance? I mentioned to the Parks Committee chairman it is usually wise to hire a professional course designer for the layout in advance and he agreed.

But the thought of creating a possible, suggested layout is a real temptation! There are NO Elevation Changes at all here (in SC Lowcountry)...

Again, if you had just a big empty field, how would YOU lay it out so there's no criss-crossing of fairways? Just going around outside is too easy + boring!

Thanks in advance for ANY ideas, tips, warnings, etc. for us to keep in mind!

Gamecock
04-19-2010, 11:24 PM
Here's the empty version of a map that can be used by anybody for example(s).

http://www.parkcirclediscgolf.com/gahagan-layout.jpg

Here's a quick example of how the course COULD be designed (using this image).

http://www.parkcirclediscgolf.com/gahagan-layout-0.jpg

If you don't have any software to use to draw lines and put numbers by them, I might suggest you download and install the superb FREEWARE program called IrfanView. This program has been downloaded more than 50 Million times and is very highly rated for being very fast and intuitive. So easy, no manual reading is needed!

http://www.irfanview.com/

Thanks in advance for ANY input you might have to get this project moving forward... I will try to get some photos of the property if anyone needs it.

Donovan
04-19-2010, 11:47 PM
It is not a exciting layout, but you may be able to build the course into a bicycle spoke wheel pattern and get 12 holes out of that area. Plus, this would get the pin placements with some tree obstacles involved.

Gamecock
04-20-2010, 12:06 AM
It is not a exciting layout...

I know my quick example isn't exciting. It's to show a design too easy + boring!

The area with tress in the middle seemed to be holding more than its share of water when I was walking in that area. That could present another problem...

Thanks for your input!

billnchristy
04-27-2010, 08:31 AM
Here is my take:
http://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=4905&stc=1&d=1272371255
All baskets are in the perimeter tree area to prevent car hittage. I am going to assume natural tees, this will allow you to use the access road and the parking lot, coming up with markers might be interesting though.

1 and 2 utilize trees in the field
3 uses the access road, lot entrance and then tucks into the trees
4 uses what looks like a maintenance shed access road and tucks into trees
5 is on the fringe of the lot, hopefully that is ok
6 goes back into the trees and uses the bigger tree on the edge of the lot as a sort of dogleg
7 follows the tree line
8 is a tweener because I cannot add but I wanted a long hole
9 is a long hole that hugs the tree line and then tucks into the woods before the access road

cydisc
04-27-2010, 09:14 AM
It is not a exciting layout, but you may be able to build the course into a bicycle spoke wheel pattern and get 12 holes out of that area.

Please don't cram a bunch of holes into such a small site.

This area is roughly 8 acres. Ideally, you would want 2-3 acres per hole. 1 acre/hole will fit a 9 hole pitch n putt. And don't forget you need to avoid siting holes in proximity to the streets and other park uses, routing them in a direction away from those conflicts. This greatly reduces the effective area you have to work with. With care, I think it could be done on this site if you employed a proven designer for an on-site consult.

Gamecock
05-05-2010, 09:47 PM
Here is my take:

Thank you VERY much for taking a shot at a possible layout for this property!

I'll have to admit it. The first one I made was downright LOUSY! :thmbdown:

Here's a MUCH better one! :thmbup:

http://www.parkcirclediscgolf.com/gahagan-fix.gif

The area in the center down at the bottom is an existing kid's playground, so we have to make sure to keep any errant throws from landing anywhere by it.

I went by there today and counted THIRTEEN rusting metal bleacher sections! Not sure how much they weigh, but at about $1.50 per pound, that might be enough to buy a set of 10 Discatcher baskets (an extra for practicing putts).

I would love for this site to be good enough to become home course for a new Summervile High School disc golf team and a Summerville Open tourney!

I also saw the tree buffers along the 3 roads (2 paved, 1 dirt) are rather thin - not enough to contain an entire hole. The start/end area really needs to be near the kiddie playground, as that is the closest to the parking area too.

If anybody else wants to take another shot at a possible layout for this area, please be our guest. A meeting on this property with town park officials has been set for next Monday morning (around 10:30 AM). Still very preliminary, but it's encouraging they have shown as much interest as they have so far!

Gamecock
05-05-2010, 09:53 PM
Please don't cram a bunch of holes into such a small site.

This area is roughly 8 acres. Ideally, you would want 2-3 acres per hole. 1 acre/hole will fit a 9 hole pitch n putt. And don't forget you need to avoid siting holes in proximity to the streets and other park uses, routing them in a direction away from those conflicts. This greatly reduces the effective area you have to work with. With care, I think it could be done on this site if you employed a proven designer for an on-site consult.

Thanks for making your calculation as to how many acres are on this property! It might be possible to route another 9 holes around the outside of this park, I'm not sure. The above area could be the beginner course (or the Easy 9). It might make more sense to have multiple pin locations and/or 2 tees per hole before we even think about creating any advanced back 9 too.

billnchristy
05-05-2010, 10:03 PM
Could you mark off the areas that can't be used and I will take another crack at it tomorrow at work?

I think I got what you are talking about but I want to see it to fully get it.

Could that road that I used for 3 be used or would it eat discs up (dont know the make up of the road).

Gamecock
05-06-2010, 12:05 AM
Could you mark off the areas that can't be used and I will take another crack at it tomorrow at work?

Sure!

http://www.parkcirclediscgolf.com/gahagan-avoid.gif

On the left side (marked by red line), there is a One Way dirt road along side of what looks like a National Guard unit area. That has a fence with BARBED WIRE at the top, so must use the trees on that side to protect discs going in there! That's why we need 2 shorter holes on that side to be safe as well...

The kiddie playground is marked of by the other 2 red lines. We sure don't want any little kids in there getting hit by a bad shot! #1 tee going away from there and a shorter #9 finishing hole coming back there makes sense.

As I recall, there's a slightly overgrown dirt access road along yellow line to avoid as well. The blue lines show a typically wet area that would be no fun to walk in if there is a recent rain (rained here last Monday - still looks wet).

The part in the middle that is not cut grass looks too swampy for ANY tee OR basket to me. That should be avoided too. I did not look behind (or around) those old metal bleachers because it looks too much like ideal snake habitat.

The SAFE area to play in kinda looks like shape of Arc De Triomphe in Paris - tilted to the right a bit. ;)

http://www.parkcirclediscgolf.com/arc-de-triomphe.jpg

I think I got what you are talking about but I want to see it to fully get it.

Hopefully, my map with places to avoid will make that more clear to you (and everyone else) now.

Could that road that I used for 3 be used or would it eat discs up (dont know the make up of the road).

No. Trees along that border need to be used to shield any discs going over that barbed wire fence! Let's just assume anyone seen climbing that fence will be considered a terrorist and might be shot on sight. LOL Better safe than sorry! :)

The closer a basket is to any of those 3 roads, the more discs that will fly onto those roads. We need to try to insure that will be a very RARE event! For new players, I tried to leave room to the left of a basket since typical right-handed backhand throws will tend to fade that way. Follow me?

There are enough trees to protect errant throws if we don't tuck any basket too deep. On the edge of the big clearing should work just fine I would think.

My new #3 probably has to be the longest hole on the course, as that side is about the only place where a big arm would be able to throw one really hard.

I'll try to go by and take some pictures this weekend if possible. The grass was just cut recently, so they should look nice. I'm getting excited about it!

Thanks again for your interest to possibly whip up another possible layout! I wish this property offered some more possibilities, but (again) better safe than sorry. We'd like to have 4' by 12' cement tee pads too, but those might have to wait to make sure we don't need to move a hole to have an ideal workable layout. I'd be happy to have this 9 as just a pitch and putt!

Please wish us Good Luck at making this local dream become a new reality.

SmoothSailor
05-06-2010, 12:27 AM
http://planetchronitron.webs.com/discgolf/coursedes.jpg

The blue outline is a path through the woods for people to walk to each parking lot from the end of hole 9.

Dave242
05-06-2010, 12:45 AM
Smooth - I like how you are the first person to suggest using some wooded fairways (2 & 7), but I am not a big fan of hole 9 ending across the park from hole 1.

SmoothSailor
05-06-2010, 12:55 AM
Smooth - I like how you are the first person to suggest using some wooded fairways (2 & 7), but I am not a big fan of hole 9 ending across the park from hole 1.

Yeah :doh:. By the time I got around to the end of it I was like, "Oh well, already walking."

Dave242
05-06-2010, 01:20 AM
This might work for an interesting beginner level course. It has a mix of wooded, semi-wooded and open holes, a couple of holes with choices (5 & its mirror image 7), and a true par 4 (for 220' throwers) finishing hole. It should be safe with throwers throwing into open areas and many tees guarded by trees. Flow is pretty good. Of course lengths and shapes would be tweaked for more variation and a better fit into existing features/obstacles.

http://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=5027&stc=1&d=1273122919

Gamecock
05-06-2010, 01:21 AM
http://planetchronitron.webs.com/discgolf/coursedes.jpg

The blue outline is a path through the woods for people to walk to each parking lot from the end of hole 9.

Thanks for your suggestion(s) Smooth!

That middle area (hole through Arc De Triomphe example) is considered too wet to park a car. So wet, your shoes may sink down enough to fill your up shoes with water - not fun. The tree areas on the outside are all dry by comparison.

If there is to be a tee coming out of these woods, it almost HAS to be on outside. Summerville SC is known as the "Flower Town in the Pines", so I'm afraid cutting down ANY tree here (especially a Pine) will not be allowed. No kidding, EVERY tree that someone wants to be cut down MUST be approved by town officials beforehand. We'll have to work around the trees there now.

I know all straight shots is considered boring, but not much room at all for any dogleg(s) here. I could see Lefty or forehand throwers really liking the layout I came up with. :) If a basket was behind a tree in middle, that could open up the option to approach it from either side with a long curved throw.

I'm afraid your idea for a path around outside won't work too well. There is only one ideal parking lot for the course (in front of the kids playground). I think the others (mostly for softball/baseball) are simply too far away to use.

I do appreciate you taking the time to whip up a possible layout. We really don't know yet, but we might use a combination of various suggestions here.

Thanks again!

Gamecock
05-06-2010, 01:28 AM
I am not a big fan of hole 9 ending across the park from hole 1.

I would agree with you on that! It's good to get those who have finished a round off the course (and out of the way for other players) as soon as possible.

I think we really need to have both the first tee AND finishing basket near the kids playground (with a buffer of trees to protect the kids from errant throws).

Gamecock
05-06-2010, 01:47 AM
This might work for an interesting beginner level course. It has a mix of wooded, semi-wooded and open holes, a couple of holes with choices (5 & its mirror image 7), and a true par 4 (for 220' throwers) finishing hole. It should be safe with throwers throwing into open areas and many tees guarded by trees. Flow is pretty good. Of course lengths and shapes would be tweaked for more variation and a better fit into existing features/obstacles.

http://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=5027&stc=1&d=1273122919

Thanks for your course suggestion Dave! Your hole #1 is what I envisioned at first too, although I don't have capability to draw decent looking curved lines. That's main reason I didn't show a dogleg or a curved line option. LOL

On your hole #9 however, those without a big arm might have their drive land in middle swamp. It's SO wet in there, many people would want to walk all the way around it (to avoid sinking in mud) - thereby getting in way of other players.

Maybe I should have said that middle section contains dangerous quicksand? Yes, it's THAT bad! ;)

It might be quicksand for all I know right now! Hehe I have to check it out a little better, but I want to keep my distance from the rusting old bleachers...

Dave242
05-06-2010, 01:57 AM
On your hole #9 however, those without a big arm might have their drive land in middle swamp. It's SO wet in there, many people would want to walk all the way around it (to avoid sinking in mud) - thereby getting in way of other players.

Maybe I should have said that middle section contains dangerous quicksand? Yes, it's THAT bad! ;)

It might be quicksand for all I know right now! Hehe I have to check it out a little better, but I want to keep my distance from the rusting old bleachers...

Bummer. You certainly do not want the landing zone in a swamp. You could do this and put a bridge/boardwalk in. (Plus I like Bing Maps' birdseye views!)

http://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=5028&stc=1&d=1273125387

billnchristy
05-06-2010, 11:10 AM
Dude that view is waaaay better...gives an idea of what its really like.

Gamecock
05-06-2010, 11:19 AM
WOW! Bing map is MUCH more clear for showing where the trees are located. It also shows the parking lot where people would park when playing the course.

That building down in bottom left may be where the park officials are working, I don't know. We sure wouldn't want any discs hitting that building or landing on its roof! I believe I will get to see a plot map of the overall park property soon.

Did you save a copy of that map before you added in your layout suggestions?

If so, could you please post a blank version of the map? That would really help.

Thanks again very much!

Dave242
05-06-2010, 11:29 AM
I did not save the map, but if you go to Bing Maps you can zoom as appropriate (to show parking etc) and rotate to get great views from 4 directions - you can see the bleachers really well when looking from the west.

Click here (http://www.bing.com/maps/?v=2&cp=33.01031999999998~-80.16404&lvl=12&sty=r&where1=33.01032%2C%20-80.16404) and then hit Aerial - Bird's Eye on the top left of the map. Zoom and rotate to your hearts content.....and grab screenshots with the PrintScreen button on your computer then paste them into your picture editor.

Oh......and looking at the park more, you are right......all the parking is near the kiddy playground, so it makes more sense to start on my hole 7 and end on 6. I was thinking that building was the restrooms, which makes that a better place to start (but did not zoom out to see the parking).

billnchristy
05-06-2010, 11:48 AM
Only major thing I would do different from Dave's is to put the basket for what is labelled as 8 in between those 2 trees, it should protect it from parking issues and also present *some* kind of challenge for what should be a pretty easy course.

Dave242
05-06-2010, 12:10 PM
Wouldn't that make that hole extremely short (as in 180')? I thought it would be cool to have that basket tucked in the woods as a mirror image complement to 1 & 3 (which are righty holes). Or you could scoot the angle over to the left and start out open for the first half and have the 2nd half be a corridor shot in the woods (even with some funky turn/finish if you so desired).

The idea of my map was more routing the holes for flow and balance. One other thing I tried to do is to put tees and baskets in the shade (SC coastal plain is frickin hot and stagnant in the summer) and off the field since it is used as a parking lot. There is still plenty of room for tweaking to add some challenge/intrigue.......but you really can not see what is available for those sorts of things from an aerial photo.

Gamecock
05-06-2010, 02:24 PM
OK, here's a new sharper blank map from Bing that shows the area we have for a 9 hole course.

The other Google map must have been taken on a sunny day and it was hard to tell where the trees in the open area actually are, compared to their shadows. This new overhead shot must have been taken on a cloudy day (No shadows!). MUCH better!

http://www.parkcirclediscgolf.com/gahagan-new.jpg

The name of the road at the top has been changed here (was Owens Drive in the other picture) and I think West Carolina Ave. is actually the correct name. Most locals are already quite familiar with the general park location.

This view is a good bit larger and is more of a closeup which also contains a yardage marker in the bottom right hand corner. Thanks again to Dave for informing me that the Bing map is better in this case. For the first time, we now have something we can really work with to come up with a better layout!

If anyone has any ideas, suggestions, warnings, etc. for it, we are all ears...

In the original post, I mentioned I was concerned about cars hitting baskets when this area is used for parking cars on July 4th (annual fireworks show). In retrospect, that's kind of silly. We could probably drape any open area baskets in police tape (or something else) to make them much more visible.

The layout should not suffer for 364 days a year because of concerns about someone hitting a basket on ONE day a year! Besides, there are attendants that guide the cars when they arrive. We could also put some glow sticks on any vulnerable baskets to make them more visible at night when crowd goes back to their cars to leave for home (no lighting in this area). Look for new ground level photos to be posted in this thread coming SOON - especially that middle marshy area.

Thanks to ALL of you in the DGCR community for your help with this project! It seems to me it IS possible to use this forum to design a new course using pictures! I had no idea if this could work or not, but I must say I'm pleased with what has transpired.

Jaysus
05-06-2010, 03:16 PM
In the original post, I mentioned I was concerned about cars hitting baskets when this area is used for parking cars on July 4th (annual fireworks show). In retrospect, that's kind of silly. We could probably drape any open area baskets in police tape (or something else) to make them much more visible.

The layout should not suffer for 364 days a year because of concerns about someone hitting a basket on ONE day a year! Besides, there are attendants that guide the cars when they arrive. We could also put some glow sticks on any vulnerable baskets to make them more visible at night when crowd goes back to their cars to leave for home (no lighting in this area).

Just pull the affected baskets for times like that.

billnchristy
05-06-2010, 03:17 PM
I made a ruler with the distance marker given and have come to the conclusion that you would be better off with a 5-6 holer there.

I left the ruler visible on the longest hole, which was close to 350' but the total distance is still only 1660' and frankly wouldn't be that great...

I even had to build a dirt peninsula for 9 to give it some length.

http://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=5037&stc=1&d=1273173256
4 has a mando to protect 5s tee
6 has a mando to make it interesting
7 has a pro par double mando through the 2 trees to also make it interesting

As you can see with the ruler (50' per tick), the lot is roughly 500' x 350' (that is generous) which only gives us about 4 acres.

AdamE
05-06-2010, 03:39 PM
I see there's a narrow clearing for power lines at the bottom of the map. If that's part of the park property it would be a great place for a hole. If it's city property you might still be able to use it, just gotta ask.

Thoroughly explore the wooded areas. There have to be some soft spot where you can tuck the pin or pad into it without taking out any mature trees.

Use the trees out in the open to the best of your ability. Try to set up holes so the trees help shape the shots and force you to throw around them.

One thing you can do to spice up a short, open hole is to make it an island green. Mark it off somehow (planting concrete stones in the ground works well) and say you have to land inside the island or you throw from a drop zone. I've seen this used effectively at a number of courses now.

billnchristy
05-06-2010, 03:40 PM
I think he said that powerline road was used for maintenance peeps.

Have you asked about the land around the baseball fields? I don't know how far the park property goes but there is some nice dense forrest out there.

Dave242
05-06-2010, 03:54 PM
Bill - FYI, your footage seems a little shorter than drawn. I think the angle of the Bong photo messes perspectives up and makes using a ruler hard/impossible. Using Google Earth's measuring tool:
1 - 180'
2 - 240'
3 - 410'
4 - 210'
5 - 280'
6 - 180'
7 - 250'
8 - 230'
9 - 210'
Total - 2190'

I like these lengths a whole lot better!

Also, the lot is closer to 550' X 520' (giving some buffer around the edges) = 6.6 acres

Gamecock
05-06-2010, 04:09 PM
I did not save the map, but if you go to Bing Maps you can zoom as appropriate (to show parking etc) and rotate to get great views from 4 directions - you can see the bleachers really well when looking from the west.

Click here (http://www.bing.com/maps/?v=2&cp=33.01031999999998~-80.16404&lvl=12&sty=r&where1=33.01032%2C%20-80.16404) and then hit Aerial - Bird's Eye on the top left of the map. Zoom and rotate to your hearts content.....and grab screenshots with the PrintScreen button on your computer then paste them into your picture editor.

Wow! Thanks for taking the time to post that link plus the instructions for others to be able to view this property. I just made a new screen shot of those bleachers for those who might be interested. The Chairman of the Summerville Town Council Parks Committee was not aware those were there! Here it is (with the view from the West as you suggested)... In this shot, it looks like there are even more of them (16?), but I'm not sure when photo was taken.

http://www.parkcirclediscgolf.com/gahagan-bleachers.jpg

Oh......and looking at the park more, you are right......all the parking is near the kiddy playground, so it makes more sense to start on my hole 7 and end on 6. I was thinking that building was the restrooms, which makes that a better place to start (but did not zoom out to see the parking).

Yes, hole #1 should start near there. I can imagine a couple going to that playground and while Mom watches the kid(s) play there, Dad gets to go play a quick round of 9 holes. :) Some kids might even prefer to play disc golf than play in the playground! This would allow disc golf to be more visible too.

Thanks again VERY much Dave! I really do appreciate your time/help on this.

Gamecock
05-06-2010, 04:20 PM
Only major thing I would do different from Dave's is to put the basket for what is labelled as 8 in between those 2 trees, it should protect it from parking issues and also present *some* kind of challenge for what should be a pretty easy course.

YES! Placing a basket between those 2 trees adds to the challenge and will also protect it from being rammed on the 4th of July as well (with no need to pull it). That could even be where basket goes for the first hole to make it easy. I see nothing wrong with the first hole being simple and easy.

Great idea! I'm not sure which hole basket should go there, but should be one of them for sure.

I truly appreciate your input. As the first other person to post a possible layout for this area, you really helped get this thread going (+ keep going!).

Gamecock
05-06-2010, 05:24 PM
Wouldn't that make that hole extremely short (as in 180')? I thought it would be cool to have that basket tucked in the woods as a mirror image complement to 1 & 3 (which are righty holes). Or you could scoot the angle over to the left and start out open for the first half and have the 2nd half be a corridor shot in the woods (even with some funky turn/finish if you so desired).

I kid you not... We really NEED a few short and easy holes in this area of SC! We now have SIX courses in Greater Charleston SC area and the ONLY one with any really short/easy holes is at Charleston Southern University. Sadly, they are only allowing current staff and students to play there. :thmbdown: It's a private Christian college, but they do get public tax breaks. Frankly, I don't think it is very Christian-like to ban the general public from property they WERE allowed to be on - until they installed 9 disc golf baskets (Discatchers). I took classes for my Masters there, but that doesn't count! :wall: Park Circle (my favorite local course) only has good chances for an Ace IF shorter basket positions are used (but rarely ever are). In this case, I feel a few short/easy holes in Gahagan Park (not far from the private CSU course) can be a drawing card, as opposed to a negative - at least here in this area of SC.

There is a new local course with a short hole, but there's a lake close behind it... To go for an ace there, there's a much better chance you'll just end up losing your disc in the water instead.

Why must there be virtually ZERO holes that might actually be easy for an ace?

I've never had an ace yet, so I am obviously biased. Yes, I want to get one BADLY! But... I'd think 1 or more short holes with a much higher chance at an ace would be fun to play - especially for younger kids who can't throw as far as adults!

The idea of my map was more routing the holes for flow and balance. One other thing I tried to do is to put tees and baskets in the shade (SC coastal plain is frickin hot and stagnant in the summer) and off the field since it is used as a parking lot. There is still plenty of room for tweaking to add some challenge/intrigue.......but you really can not see what is available for those sorts of things from an aerial photo.

Clearly, flow and balance would be good. Wouldn't an easy first hole help to prevent waiting a long time for others to finish playing out on the first hole?

I'm confident a disc golf course in Gahagan Park will quickly become popular.

I will post some ground level pics of the property soon. That should help...

Thanks again for your input and feedback!

Dave242
05-06-2010, 05:31 PM
Bill - FYI, your footage seems a little shorter than drawn. I think the angle of the Bong photo messes perspectives up and makes using a ruler hard/impossible.

har har he said bong photo :(


.....and that would mess with your perspectives, but it was a typo, not a Freudian slip, I promise! :) Bing Photo.....as in Microsoft trying to have a cool catchy name to be like Google.

Gamecock
05-06-2010, 05:37 PM
Just pull the affected baskets for times like that.

:doh: Silly me... It looks like I completely forgot that any vulnerable baskets can easily be pulled for the 4th of July celebrations. Thanks for pointing out what should've been quite obvious!

As for WHO should have responsibility to pull and/or move baskets from time to time, I don't think this should be left up to park officials. It's better to have the keys to the basket poles kept in the hands of local disc golfers or DG club.

Dave242
05-06-2010, 05:42 PM
I kid you not... We really NEED a few short and easy holes in this area of SC!
...................
In this case, I feel a few short/easy holes in Gahagan Park (not far from the private CSU course) can be a drawing card, as opposed to a negative - at least here in this area of SC.

Hey - do what you need to do. By all means you have the expertise on the local scene. But keep in mind that there are tons and tons of courses that are swamped with players that have no holes less than 220'.

I personally do not think that having a wide open 180' hole gets any additional challenge for anyone by putting the basket near 2 trees. It certainly adds a fun/interesting aesthetic, but for those that find those trees challenging are really much more challenged by their own lack of accuracy and consistency than by that particular hole design.

Sure, acing is fun but if you have the room I would think it would be wise to design a course that maximizes the space and then put in short tees and sleeves for alternate basket positions.

Gamecock
05-06-2010, 06:40 PM
I made a ruler with the distance marker given and have come to the conclusion that you would be better off with a 5-6 holer there.

No, I think that would make some disc golfers decide to not come to play it. Ideally, Summerville town officials will want at least 9 holes to attract out of town visitors to come play it and then spend some money for a meal or even spend the night at a local motel (bringing town $$ in accommodation taxes).

If accommodations taxes are going to be used to build it, we gotta have it be as attractive as possible for visitors. Tourism is the #1 industry here in the South Carolina Lowcountry. I can envision tourists wanting to play this course before heading out of town (it's not very far from Interstate 26 here).

If this has to be the "Easy 9", so be it. There's at least a possibility of an advanced 9 winding around the outside of the park (some water to use too).

I left the ruler visible on the longest hole, which was close to 350' but the total distance is still only 1660' and frankly wouldn't be that great...

Finding actual distances is tricky just using aerial views - guesstimates at best I think.

I even had to build a dirt peninsula for 9 to give it some length.

That's a novel idea... If the old metal bleachers on this land can be sold for scrap metal with proceeds being used for the DG course, we might be able to have some creative holes like that! Clearly, the higher the budget, the better the course could be. They might want to see how much the first 9 is used before deciding whether or not to put in a back nine. I bet it'll be a hit!

Summerville's Flowertown Festival, held annually each Spring, was named one of the TOP 20 EVENTS in the Southeast, and winner of the Shinning Example Award by the Southeast Tourism. This course could possibly have a tourney during that event. While the ladies tour the Azaleas, their men could play DG!


http://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=5037&stc=1&d=1273173256

4 has a mando to protect 5s tee
6 has a mando to make it interesting
7 has a pro par double mando through the 2 trees to also make it interesting


Now we're getting somewhere... This layout is easily 10 Times better than your first attempt. It would be cool if this could be THE first ever DG course designed online by a bunch of different disc golfers primarily using aerial maps!

Town officials seem to be willing to pay a professional designer - IF it makes the course significantly better. On this plot of land, that may not be needed.

Thanks for creating another possible layout!

billnchristy
05-06-2010, 07:05 PM
Good points on the perspective and stuff...didn't even thing of that...doh!

I am gonna bust it out on google earth and see what happens.

Nevermind...reading is fundamental...

If Daves measurements are right that would be about perfect really.

Gamecock
05-06-2010, 07:11 PM
I see there's a narrow clearing for power lines at the bottom of the map. If that's part of the park property it would be a great place for a hole. If it's city property you might still be able to use it, just gotta ask.

Good eye Adam!

That's park property, but I'm not sure about who owns those power lines OR the right of way to use that...

Thoroughly explore the wooded areas. There have to be some soft spot where you can tuck the pin or pad into it without taking out any mature trees.

I fear taking out even small trees might not be allowed - depends on the size of the diameter (I think). If brush can be cut by just using a (manual) swing blade, I'd hope that may be OK. I expect to learn the rules Monday morning.

Use the trees out in the open to the best of your ability. Try to set up holes so the trees help shape the shots and force you to throw around them.

Agreed. It would be nice to give the option to go around them on either side.

One thing you can do to spice up a short, open hole is to make it an island green. Mark it off somehow (planting concrete stones in the ground works well) and say you have to land inside the island or you throw from a drop zone. I've seen this used effectively at a number of courses now.

Oooo... I like the sound of that! Could you possibly post an example of such a hole (close up view)?

I know the annual Charleston Classic tournament uses that concept with an existing round sidewalk.

http://bellsouthpwp.net/c/h/charlestondiscgolf/Hamptonmap.GIF

Look at hole #17 for (temporary) Hampton Park DG Course. Truly Amazing! :)

Talk about high risk vs. reward... Some players have emptied their bag of all discs trying to get over the "cement pond". Some decide to just lay up and play it safe. That was a really exciting hole for me to watch as a spectator!

Gamecock
05-06-2010, 07:30 PM
Have you asked about the land around the baseball fields? I don't know how far the park property goes but there is some nice dense forest out there.

I'm fuzzy on that too. I expect to see a map showing actual park property lines on Monday morning. For another 9 holes, a pro course designer might be needed for that layout to be done right + not sure if we could cut trees there.

Summerville is VERY sensitive about cutting down ANY trees, which many people like.

Dave242
05-06-2010, 09:36 PM
Did they cut any trees down to make all those baseball fields? If so, I doubt cutting a few trees down is an obstacle that can't be overcome for the sake of a good addition to the recreational facility........but it is an obstacle to be sure.

BTW, I just found out today that a good chunk of land I am proposing to use for a course expansion is tagged as a nature area......so I have a similar obstacle to overcome.

billnchristy
05-07-2010, 09:23 AM
BTW, I just found out today that a good chunk of land I am proposing to use for a course expansion is tagged as a nature area......so I have a similar obstacle to overcome.


I would actually love that opportunity. When the course enters the nature area switch to nicely maintained natural tees, nice natural wooded signs, natural log benches and minimal clearing. You could even offer to have signs along the fairway that point out tree types and birds or whatever that live in the area like you see on other nature trails. It might take some extra work to keep it up but it might help prove that we can maintain nature and play our sport.

Jody Mitchell
05-07-2010, 12:08 PM
Here's my take, why not just lower the hole # to 6 and play it 3 times for a quick 18 hole round. This way, you can get some longer holes in with the fairways not being crammed close together while trying to squeeze 9+ holes in such a small area. Let's face it, with what you've got to work with, it'll never be a PDGA caliber tournament course nor will it have super long holes, that doesn't mean it can't be nice and a tad challenging. Less is more quite often and I think this piece of land is a prime example of that. I took a stab at it myself and here's what I'll present. Keep in mind that these are just opinions and there's been some nice submissions already but I like to help promote Disc Golf and course installation just as much as the next DGer. Having only one official course design under belt, I figured I'd offer what little course design advice I have. My footages are rough estimates because I only trust firing a survey laser from point A to B in real life. The 3 lines are optional routes for lefties, forehand only players, etc.

http://img532.imageshack.us/img532/599/gahagandgc.jpg

Hole #1 - 220"
Hole #2 - 325"
Hole #3 - 200"
Hole #4 - 180"
Hole #5 - 210"
Hole #6 - 240"

Total - 1375 x 3 rounds = 4125, not too shabby.

There are no mandos anywhere, I actually despise the idea of forcing players to throw their disc a certain way. I like allowing a player to make what he feels is the right choice when throwing a disc. For safety and hazard reasons, I can deal with them, but here it looks like everything is in the clear and no mandos are going to be needed.

No matter how you do it, it's never going to be a course that requires high speed distance drivers, but it can be a course to fine tune mid-range and putter drives. Hole #2 is a good roller practice hole as well. If you don't have any aces, this would be the place to start collecting. Although the more of those you get, the less they mean. It's more fun now to watch other people's ace reactions, lol.

Very nice looking piece of land, I hope you the best in making a permanent course there, regardless of what design is used.

:)

Dave242
05-07-2010, 12:43 PM
My footages are rough estimates because I only trust firing a survey laser from point A to B in real life.
Hole #1 - 220" 290'
Hole #2 - 325" 440'
Hole #3 - 200" 270'
Hole #4 - 180" 180'
Hole #5 - 210" 300'
Hole #6 - 240" 270'

Total - 1375 1750 x 3 rounds = 4125 5250, not too shabby.


Actually, Google Earth is a very accurate and reliable way of getting distances. If you do not believe it, find some college football or NFL fields on Google Earth and test it out. I measured what you are showing in blue and I think I got it close enough proposal purposes.

One downside I see of your design is that every single hole has woods lining the left hand side of the fairway.

Jody Mitchell
05-07-2010, 01:10 PM
Actually, Google Earth is a very accurate and reliable way of getting distances. If you do not believe it, find some college football or NFL fields on Google Earth and test it out. I measured what you are showing in blue and I think I got it close enough proposal purposes.

One downside I see of your design is that every single hole has woods lining the left hand side of the fairway.

Cool, never knew it was that accurate, the only reason I didn't really trust it was due to elevation change and calculating that in. I know he said it was relatively flat but I wasn't sure it was that accurate.

You're right, I noticed that too, it's 80% righty friendly. Could pull most of the teepads out more away from the woodline, I don't mind teepads being close as long as they fire in opposite directions. You're idea is nice too, great flow but I still stand by 6 holes being ideal over 9 or more. The lay-out can change, not a problem, but playing a 6 hole course 3 times in this small area seems easier to work with than making it tighter with 9. Not only that, 6 baskets are cheaper than 9, which will make the city happy.

What do you think? It's a cool looking little piece of land, wish it were my backyard. There's potential for a few nice holes but I doubt it's going to be a course that people who live 25 miles or more away are going play constantly. However, it's always a good thing to get more DG courses, even smaller easier ones.

Make a 6 hole lay-out Dave, I bet you can come up with a nice design.

PS - You could also make 2 alternate teepads for each to change up the holes for each round, that way it's not exactly the same thing each time.

mashnut
05-07-2010, 01:37 PM
Hey Jody, what about an alternate set of tees that plays the same basket locations as in your layout, but flows the opposite direction. Playing both directions you'd have a righty friendly round and a lefty friendly round. A little course like that isn't going to get that huge of crowds, so it wouldn't be that much of a safety concern especially since you wouldn't really have many blind shots. I've seen a layout like this work really well at Groves Park in Tucson AZ, they actually have short and long tees going both directions for 36 holes using 9 baskets.

Dave242
05-07-2010, 01:49 PM
What do you think? It's a cool looking little piece of land, wish it were my backyard. There's potential for a few nice holes but I doubt it's going to be a course that people who live 25 miles or more away are going play constantly. However, it's always a good thing to get more DG courses, even smaller easier ones.

Make a 6 hole lay-out Dave, I bet you can come up with a nice design.

PS - You could also make 2 alternate teepads for each to change up the holes for each round, that way it's not exactly the same thing each time.

Honestly - the best you could get out of this land is a course I would rate a 0.5-1.0 disc course. It would be like a ton of the courses around where I am at now (short, boring, 9-holers)....but on much more scraggly land. These courses are OK for recreational players, but do not show off the potential of what DG offers very well.

I really think 9 holes fits pretty well - tight, but safe. This is assuming you can use the woods (which Gamecock recently says he is doubtful of). As an example, in my design there is only conflict with hole 7 throwing in on hole 6's teeing area (but only the bad throws and it is easy to see them coming)....but the discs would not be landing in the same area for drives on each.

I am pretty biased against 6 hole courses since the vast majority of the population (DG playing and BG-familiar) are set in their ways of 9 & 18 being the convention. I personally have no problem playing 6, 8, 10, 12.....whatever, but if the users think something is goofy they are less likely to want to do it/use it. It is maybe like a softball field having a square shaped outfield (with rounded corner for safety) rather than round. It really does not change the game much but it would be so weird that people would find other places to play.

Jody Mitchell
05-07-2010, 02:03 PM
I am pretty biased against 6 hole courses since the vast majority of the population (DG playing and BG-familiar) are set in their ways of 9 & 18 being the convention.

This is so true. When we went about getting our home course, the lady from parks and rec told us 15 minutes into discussions that if it was going to happen, it had to be 18 holes just like regular golf. She plays ball golf and said she'd never go to a course with less than 18 and that it's pointless to waste land by trying to squeeze something in that really has no place. She had a valid point, however, being as disc golf holes are generally shorter, it's ok to allow for less holes in tighter areas. We got our home course, and it is 18 but it sits on 29.5 acres. Way less to work with here, either way, it's clear that it's only going to be a mid to putter drive course. Not a bad thing, just not a great thing. The only reason I mentioned dropping to 6 holes is the fact that if it's not going to have enough space for a full 18, at least keep it divisible by 3,6,9 or 18. There's a course close by my city with 11 holes...now who wants to go play that?

9 holes are fine and a big plus is for ladies and beginners to have a place to practice before tackling those real courses out there.

Again, I'd love to have a piece of land near my house like this.

RussMB
05-07-2010, 02:17 PM
I just uninstalled Google earth the other day. Bogg

GameCock, Question for ya

What are these that I've circled?

Dave242
05-07-2010, 02:26 PM
Those are the metal bleachers he speaks of. See this post (http://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showpost.php?p=342662&postcount=30) for a Bing maps view of them.

I wondered the same thing when I first was looking at this on Google, but Bing's birdseye images are much better (you get views from 4 angles!).

RussMB
05-07-2010, 02:30 PM
Oh thanks man, Cool, I'll have to check out Bing Maps. I was looking at the street view in Google, but Can't see much past the tree lines! lol

cydisc
05-07-2010, 02:59 PM
Those are the metal bleachers he speaks of. See this post (http://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showpost.php?p=342662&postcount=30) for a Bing maps view of them.

I wondered the same thing when I first was looking at this on Google, but Bing's birdseye images are much better (you get views from 4 angles!).

That's where the crowds gather for the final hole.

Gamecock
05-08-2010, 12:17 AM
First of all, sorry I was a no-show for about the last 24 hours or so... It was my Sister's birthday, so I was hanging out with her and the family. But, I was also anxious to go take some ground level photos for proposed Gahagan Park DGC and managed to get over there after dinner and get some shots before it got too dark. BIG News: I was wrong - that center woods section is NOT too wet to include tees OR baskets! I must have seen it after a heavy rain previously.

Here's an example photo...

http://www.parkcirclediscgolf.com/gahagan-woods.jpg

I'll have to see if we can permission to cut down some trees skinny trees in this area. Right now, it's NOT being used at all (and public will never know).

Below is a photo to show the wet part of open area (which I had outlined in blue on an earlier photo). There has been no rain since last Monday. As you can see, only 1 side of it retains water. The other side is virtually dry!

http://www.parkcirclediscgolf.com/gahagan-gulch.jpg

Look for more new ground level Gahagan Park photos coming right up...

Gamecock
05-08-2010, 01:35 AM
Earlier, Adam made the astute observation that there is a clearing under some power lines. Here's a shot looking one way (very close to kid's playground). This building houses 2 bathrooms and a drinking water fountain as well. If a tee was here, the back side of this building + fence could block shots going into the playground, but this is cutting it pretty close. And, if a basket was placed at the end of this clearing, it could be visible from the road (helping visitors to find the course)! There was a gate on this side to come out of the kids playground, but it was locked shut with a chain. Do YOU think this could possibly be a hole? This could also be a good place to put an extra practice basket (if 10 baskets are purchased, instead of just 9).

http://www.parkcirclediscgolf.com/gahagan-power.jpg

Below is photo looking in the exact opposite direction (not being mowed now).

http://www.parkcirclediscgolf.com/gahagan-other.jpg

If we used this area for a hole, I wonder if we could place a tee sign on this pole?

I did not try walking down in this direction to see how long this hole could be, but it could be a way to go from one side of the big clearing to the other, without having to go all the way around (and/or back). Definite possibilities!

Obviously, no trees would have to be cut if we use this "channel" requiring an accurate shot. It could also help never-evers grasp the concept of how disc golf works by seeing (possibly) 2 different holes from same general area.

It could be possible to measure the distance between the 2 poles seen here via Google maps as Dave suggested earlier in this thread. Anyone want to measure this? If so, thanks in advance! :)

I will try following this path the next time I am there (before meeting with park officials). I feel we may need a way to get to other side of the course.

In fact, this might even be the ideal place for hole #1! When going to where I thought I thought the first tee should be, I saw a little league team having a fly ball catching practice session (coach hitting balls up in air, with kids running under them to make the catch). This may be why grass in that area gets cut now. We should try to avoid potential conflict(s) for this multi-use area. I was glad I could observe this activity going on in person, but I have no idea how often this area is used for these practice sessions.

billnchristy
05-08-2010, 01:49 AM
From building to building at playground it is 358'

Cant really tell where the poles are but its approx 122'

Opening to about 30' from playground shelter is 180'

I think it should be 9...good place to end, unless you go the opposite way.

Gamecock
05-08-2010, 01:51 AM
Here's another view of the standing water puddle from perpendicular direction... Note how there IS room to walk around it on the left side.

http://www.parkcirclediscgolf.com/gahagan-puddle.jpg

What are the rules regarding water like this? Would this be a penalty if a disc lands in standing water? In ball golf, this might be a casual hazard (no penalty). I wouldn't mind having this as the only water hazard on this course! ;)

billnchristy
05-08-2010, 02:00 AM
I think it would be casual

Gamecock
05-08-2010, 02:37 AM
This shot shows the area where the LL coach was hitting pop-ups for kids to catch. That green material works as the backstop behind the "home plate". No bases were observed, but we may have to avoid this area to prevent any conflicts.

You can also see that entrance from the road which is chained off (every day except for July 4th I suspect).

http://www.parkcirclediscgolf.com/gahagan-practice.jpg

This is also the view of Billnchristy's suggested hole #1 from message #26 in this thread (which I remembered), but looks like this one would have to be scratched. The "under power line" hole could potentially replace it however...

discpicable
05-08-2010, 02:42 AM
Hole 17 on my home course plays right across a practice ball field, and it's rarely in use. In fact, I've probably only had to skip it once for baseball.

Gamecock
05-08-2010, 02:55 AM
I might as well post this photo of the one-way dirt road to show why we do NOT want any discs flying over this barbed wire fence. This is really the only "danger area" to avoid/protect. I was kidding about anybody seen climbing this fence being shot on sight, but look how LONG this fence is! I still think maybe there should be 2 shorter holes (as opposed to 1 long one) on other side of trees parallel to this road to make sure no discs go over this fence.

http://www.parkcirclediscgolf.com/national-guard.jpg

Gamecock
05-08-2010, 02:58 AM
Thanks for feedback and replies you guys! I'm not ignoring you, but just trying to get new photos up...

Gamecock
05-08-2010, 03:23 AM
From the photo showing the green material backstop (and July 4 entrance), you can see an old spare tire in the background on the left. From the below shot, you can see that same tire on the right. Note how the 2 pine trees (as seen in aerial view and discussed as a spot to place a basket) now have a tree growing in between them! This is proof Bing photo was taken quite some time ago... I'll find out Monday if that new tree in middle can be cut or not.

http://www.parkcirclediscgolf.com/gahagan-backstop.jpg

Lewis
05-08-2010, 03:51 AM
This would be a good spot for a 9-hole pitch-and-putt course if that's what you're looking for, but I would keep everything under 300' in this space. One thing you should be sure to keep track of is how close together your fairways run. In one of Bill's proposals, the one with the 350' hole, he has that hole's basket within 20' of the middle of the next hole's fairway. That's a bad idea. In that layout, you'd do better to make it a 300' hole along the northern edge of the property. You could go longer around the outside edges of the property, but as your photos show, the discs should be kept inside the tree line. If you do it right, this could be a fun place to play 9 holes with Superclass discs. Just be careful you don't shoehorn more holes into the space than is comfortable.

Gamecock
05-08-2010, 01:05 PM
Did they cut any trees down to make all those baseball fields? If so, I doubt cutting a few trees down is an obstacle that can't be overcome for the sake of a good addition to the recreational facility........but it is an obstacle to be sure.

Good point Dave! This park truly is a first class facility that a LOT of people in the community contributed to financially. I'll post a few photos to show it off...

http://www.parkcirclediscgolf.com/gahagan-sign.jpg

Summerville hosts an annual Sculpture in the South Show and Sale (May 15-16 this year) with proceeds benefiting a Permanent Public Sculpture Program. Below is one of 20 pieces of bronze sculpture have been purchased and installed since 1999 through the efforts of this organization.

http://www.parkcirclediscgolf.com/gahagan-statue.jpg

The kids playground here is one of the nicest I have seen ANYWHERE! Look how the names of contributors (individuals, families and businesses) were burned into the fence posts. Maybe we could ask some of these businesses to pitch in to help the disc golf course be first class as well? 4' x 12' tee pads here would give this course THE best tees of all 7 courses in this area!

http://www.parkcirclediscgolf.com/gahagan-kids.jpg

Gamecock
05-09-2010, 01:07 AM
Here's my take, why not just lower the hole # to 6 and play it 3 times for a quick 18 hole round.

Need at least 9 holes to attract visitors from out of town. That's essentially already been decided. Some people would pass on a visit if there's less than 9. I was completely wrong about how wet the middle part of this layout is, so a couple holes could have a tee or basket in there. It's also possible to have a hole (or 2) completely contained in those woods (narrow fairways)!

Having only one official course design under belt, I figured I'd offer what little course design advice I have.

http://img532.imageshack.us/img532/599/gahagandgc.jpg

Thanks for taking the time to come up with a layout. It's much appreciated!

There are no mandos anywhere, I actually despise the idea of forcing players to throw their disc a certain way. I like allowing a player to make what he feels is the right choice when throwing a disc. For safety and hazard reasons, I can deal with them, but here it looks like everything is in the clear and no mandos are going to be needed.

I agree on mandos (mandatory flight paths). It's nice to have your choice...

If you don't have any aces, this would be the place to start collecting. Although the more of those you get, the less they mean. It's more fun now to watch other people's ace reactions, lol.

For every player who has had an ace, there are at least 100 who never have.

I've only seen one ace scored in person and on that same day, I sank a shot from the fairway (an Eagle 2) that was even longer. I obsessed to get one!

Very nice looking piece of land, I hope you the best in making a permanent course there, regardless of what design is used.

Thanks again Jody! Your input will be considered and one of your holes may be chosen. The more ideas we get here, the better the course will be I bet.

Gamecock
05-09-2010, 01:23 AM
what about an alternate set of tees that plays the same basket locations as in your layout, but flows the opposite direction.

That's an interesting idea, but what happens when 2 groups are playing in the opposite directions?

mashnut
05-09-2010, 09:04 AM
That's an interesting idea, but what happens when 2 groups are playing in the opposite directions?

You might have to wait a couple minutes to let the other group pass through, but it's not that big a deal. You just put up a sign at the beginning of the course on which set of tees has the right of way so everyone knows when to let other groups go. Unless it gets really crowded it'll only add a few minutes to a round.

Gamecock
05-09-2010, 11:31 AM
You might have to wait a couple minutes to let the other group pass through, but it's not that big a deal. You just put up a sign at the beginning of the course on which set of tees has the right of way so everyone knows when to let other groups go.

Hmmm... It's hard to imagine that happening if you've never played a 2-way layout before. I'd have to assume those courses are quite rare. Probably more rare than courses with less than 9 holes (in a negative way too).

Unless it gets really crowded it'll only add a few minutes to a round.

If this course has top notch tee pads (4' x 12' to allow run-up throws), it may get popular VERY quickly! It would be the only course in this county, this side of Charleston metro area and the closest course for many people.

There would also be at least one annual tournament, probably during the Flowertown Festival (the cool name "Flowertown Fling" has been suggested) and hopefully another during the World's Biggest Disc Golf Weekend as well. Sadly, there were no events at all for WBDGW here in Lowcountry for 2010.

mashnut
05-09-2010, 11:36 AM
I've played two courses with backwards layouts, and a few more with dual tee pads that went from different angles not just a longer and shorter version of the same shot. On all of those I ran into other people, but it was easy to just wave one group through then take your shot. It would be trickier in a tournament, but for a tourney or if weekend days get really busy, you could just put up a sign that the course goes a specific direction that day (e.g. when crowded, play only 1-9 on Saturdays and 10-18 on Sundays). Check out Beast and Goliath in Ludington MI, they use 18 of the same baskets but play in opposite directions with 6 extra unique holes on each course, and Groves Park in Tucson AZ with 9 baskets and two sets of tees going in each direction.

Gamecock
05-09-2010, 11:46 AM
Here's a closeup of one of the bleachers, right around the corner from that casual water gully. Look like a spot for a basket to me! :)

http://www.parkcirclediscgolf.com/gahagan-bleacher.jpg

Gamecock
05-09-2010, 12:00 PM
Here's a shot taken not far from the last one, looking to the far corner. It's THE first shot of DG foursome ever at this location. :)

http://www.parkcirclediscgolf.com/gahagan-players.jpg

RussMB
05-09-2010, 12:07 PM
I really hope this course can come to fruition. It's close enough, that I could go here for a visit while my Wife and her Mom go shopping! LOL

Gamecock
05-09-2010, 12:26 PM
Looking to far corner. Woods on left is side which runs parallel to the dirt road with barbed wire fence. Next shot was taken near far tree shown here.

http://www.parkcirclediscgolf.com/gahagan-tracks.jpg

Below shot looks to other far corner (the side parallel to W. Carolina Ave.). I love the shape of that far tree there. Kinda looks like a disc flight path! :)

http://www.parkcirclediscgolf.com/gahagan-tree.jpg

Gamecock
05-09-2010, 12:40 PM
I saved this one for last... Hopefully, it is the first of MANY discs that will be seen flying through the air in beautiful Gahagan Park in Summerville, SC! :D

http://www.parkcirclediscgolf.com/gahagan-flight.jpg

RussMB
05-09-2010, 12:41 PM
I was playing around with this yesterday, although I didn't come to any conclusions. I liked the idea of making this tree a mando.

Gamecock
05-09-2010, 12:52 PM
Hey, I just noticed this thread has pushed my post total to over 100. Finally, I am no longer a Bogie Member here at DGCR. Does this help prevent DG bogies in real life? I certainly hope so. I need every edge I can get! :D

RussMB
05-09-2010, 12:53 PM
Hey, I just noticed this thread has pushed my post total to over 100. Finally, I am no longer a Bogie Member here at DGCR. Does this help prevent DG bogies in real life? I certainly hope so. I need every edge I can get! :D

Congratulations :clap:

billnchristy
05-09-2010, 01:59 PM
I want to be the first to say that I don't like mandos either, but for safety's sake and for the purpose of making the longest holes possible here, I think at least one will be necessary.

This cluster of trees here (upper right cluster) looks like it could tuck a basket with some trimming...would be a sweet hole:
http://www.parkcirclediscgolf.com/gahagan-backstop.jpg

Also, could you match these photos to the map for us that don't live there?

Gamecock
05-09-2010, 02:35 PM
Honestly - the best you could get out of this land is a course I would rate a 0.5-1.0 disc course. It would be like a ton of the courses around where I am at now (short, boring, 9-holers)....but on much more scraggly land. These courses are OK for recreational players, but do not show off the potential of what DG offers very well.

I want to insure, if possible, this course is worthy of at least 3 of 5 discs (average) if not a bit more. Not easy, I know. I would think top notch baskets (Innova DisCatchers), nice 4' x 12" cement tee pads (or as big as we can convince town officials to make them), good tee signs (plus a sign for DG rules too), a practice basket (behind kids playground) and an interesting layout might give it a chance. I am confident it would be well-maintained.

I really think 9 holes fits pretty well - tight, but safe. This is assuming you can use the woods (which Gamecock recently says he is doubtful of).

I'm glad to hear that! Sorry again I was dead wrong about middle woods holding too much water to be usable. I do hope more members will take a shot to post some more layout suggestions now that this issue is cleared up.

I am pretty biased against 6 hole courses since the vast majority of the population (DG playing and BG-familiar) are set in their ways of 9 & 18 being the convention. I personally have no problem playing 6, 8, 10, 12.....whatever, but if the users think something is goofy they are less likely to want to do it/use it. It is maybe like a softball field having a square shaped outfield (with rounded corner for safety) rather than round. It really does not change the game much but it would be so weird that people would find other places to play.

I agree with you 100% on this! This project will not get approved with just 6 holes. I may have implied a course going on this land is a done deal, but it's not (yet). I'll know much more by this time tomorrow (fingers crossed).

Jody Mitchell
05-09-2010, 02:53 PM
I'll submit another design tomorrow morning, being mother's day, I can't find enough free time. Glad the middle wooded section isn't so bad after all. I can see a nice little course fitting in well.

The only reason I mentioned only 6 holes was due to the wooded area being closed off but now that you said it's not so bad in there, 9 holes will definitely work.

Best of luck again on getting the cities approval, keep us updated on that. I live in Georgia so you're not that far from me. I'd come play it before the year was over for sure.

:)

Dave242
05-09-2010, 04:08 PM
I want to insure, if possible, this course is worthy of at least 3 of 5 discs (average) if not a bit more. Not easy, I know. I would think top notch baskets (Innova DisCatchers), nice 4' x 12" cement tee pads (or as big as we can convince town officials to make them), good tee signs (plus a sign for DG rules too), a practice basket (behind kids playground) and an interesting layout might give it a chance. I am confident it would be well-maintained.

The interesting layout is the gotcha on this. There is only so much you can do on any given piece of land.....and this is no exception. Believe you me I am not trying to pour cold water on your enthusiasm.....rather I hope all the amenities you mention do get implemented and can do as much as possible to compensate for what is lacking in the given piece of land (terrain, water, trees, views, space, etc).

Gamecock
05-10-2010, 01:01 AM
The interesting layout is the gotcha on this.

I'm up for the challenge! :thmbup:

There is only so much you can do on any given piece of land.....and this is no exception.

Not so fast my friend. This isn't over yet. In fact, it could be this has just begun!

I hope to get approval from the town to have this course be able to claim it is "The First Public Disc Golf Course Designed Online by Disc Golfers"! ANYBODY know of any DG course design that claims this now?

It may sound silly now, yet you gotta admit, this could be interesting... But WAIT, like on TV, there's MORE! ;)

A Cash Prize for Best Design maybe? That would be cheaper than paying a professional designer for sure. ANYBODY ever hear of this being offered online before? If not, maybe we can do it HERE for the first time?

We could possibly use a poll here at DGCR or just let town officials pick the best design.

Doesn't that sound rather interesting? I'd like to take a shot at that myself (I got a "home field advantage"!) Hehe Or, must I be disqualified?

Believe you me I am not trying to pour cold water on your enthusiasm.....rather I hope all the amenities you mention do get implemented and can do as much as possible to compensate for what is lacking in the given piece of land (terrain, water, trees, views, space, etc).

I know you're not Dave. Believe me, I have some VERY interesting ideas I have not revealed yet... Hinted at? Maybe...

I did move some of those spare tires (+ stuck a pole in center with flag on top) to a few positions in the field to help the Town Park Officials imagine several holes. I feel they will be impressed as we walk over the property. I want to get their input and we can easily move them around some as may be needed. I sent them an email about this thread shortly after it first started. I'm not sure if they have been following it as it has evolved so far.

The thing I still wonder about is that middle woods section... Can we have permission to clear a path for at least 1 hole entirely in the woods or not?

If not, what about tee(s) coming out of them or a basket tucked in there? At this point, I have NO idea...

But it won't be long NOW! Today is the day (it's now 1 AM EDT)! We should know a LOT more in just about 11 HOURS! Myself and 2 other local disc golfers from Summerville I recruited will be there. One of them I have only met over the phone after he called me to say he found my Star Destroyer in the bushes at Park Circle. It was thrown there by the other guy who will show up who lives in the Gahagan Park area. They have not met either, but both are excited about a first ever DGC in Summervile OR Dorchester County SC. Isn't THAT rather interesting too? ;)

Please wish us Good Luck!

Gamecock
05-10-2010, 06:49 PM
Our meeting with the Summerville Town Council Parks Committee Chairman Mike Dawson and Town of Summerville Parks and Recreation Director Mike Hinson was encouraging. But, we also learned about an unexpected problem.

I apologize for any confusion I caused (or spread more widely), but as it turns out the Town of Summerville SC no longer owns the land we've been discussing.

It was traded to the National Guard in exchange for a property they owned near another park in Summerville. Right now, the Guard is only using the land nearby for a storage facility. As I understand it, they would have to agree to allow a disc golf course to be installed on the property.

But, all is NOT Lost! I hope the National Guard will be able to lease this land back to the Town of Summerville for a very nominal fee (possibly as low as only $1.00 per year) in a long-term arrangement (hopefully 99 years).

There are also Sertoma Football practices held on this field at certain times of the year. In fact, metal tackling dummies can be seen here (chain-locked to a tree). And, as mentioned earlier in this thread, softball and Little League team practices are sometimes held here as well. Disc golfers may have to yield priority to these other activities if park staff request this.

I remain hopeful an arrangement can be worked out soon so a new disc golf course installation can proceed. Both Town Park officials seem to be on our side!

I want to publicly thank both Summerville Parks officials for their time to view the property and see the places we put some spare tires to suggest hole locations. I must also thank the other local disc golfers who were there, including a father and son who brought their bags to show the town officials all the discs (about 80) they use.

Those tires we moved are probably left there for high-stepping football practice drills. This town takes its football program VERY seriously! I kid you not, Summerville High School Head Football Coach John McKissick is now the All-Time Leader in the number of football wins among all football coaches - active or retired at any level. He's been the head football coach since 1952! This fall, he'll be entering his 59th season at Summerville with a record of 576-135-13, nearly 100 more wins the nationís second winningest coach. Heís won 10 state championships with the Green Wave and was named to the National High School Hall of Fame in 1990.

So, disc golf may have to play second fiddle to any National Guard and/or football activities in this area. Baseball and softball might be another story, as there are now some new empty fields that could be utilized instead. In general, I'm still confident a DG course can go in here! The wooded section is considered a "wetland", but that does not mean this area can't be used for DG tee(s) &/or hole(s).

If this new uncertainty makes you decide against posting a possible layout diagram, we understand. However, I would still love to see any ideas DGCR members have in regards to where they think tees and holes should go.

Thanks to ALL who have been participating in this thread so far! And, if you haven't jumped in to add your 2 cents yet, please feel free to do so any time!

I'll try to keep everyone informed of any new progress regarding this project.

Gamecock
05-11-2010, 01:14 PM
If town park officials had asked us for a map of where the 9 baskets should go yesterday, this is what I had already prepared.

http://www.parkcirclediscgolf.com/gahagan-dots.jpg

This basket layout avoids any hole(s) completely in the woods. Tees coming OUT of the woods do not seem to be as much of an issue. Obviously, there are quite a few different ways to design the course using these pin locations!

I will show mine in the next post. I think moving around the area steadily once is probably the best way to go. If anybody wants to use this image to propose a different arrangement, I'd love to see how YOU would do it!

The bottom left and bottom right baskets are actually on Gahagan Park property. Bottom right would be a combination "Kids Hole" + practice basket! Bottom left seems like a logical place for the first hole (through the clearing for overhead power lines running to park office building) with a DG rules sign.

Gamecock
05-11-2010, 01:29 PM
Here's my new layout using the same basket layout shown above. I know some of us want at least 1 longer hole here (#5). :)

http://www.parkcirclediscgolf.com/gahagan-mine.jpg

Using this layout, there would be a short path through the woods from the #6 basket to get to the #7 tee for safety purposes.

RussMB
05-11-2010, 06:19 PM
http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p83/russ30/Disc%20Golf%20Course%20Pics/summervillecopy.jpg

Okay, for starters... this is the first time I've done this, so yes... It may not be perfect. ;) But here are my thoughts

I originally wanted to take it through the timber in the middle, but I know how flooding goes here in SC. So I opted around it. I opted for some different pin placements, which are done in Blue. I X'd out one basket, giving me the 240ft target. Then I figured I would compensate distance by making the last two shots through the woods. If it's too dense, then playing along side of the woods. It was just a thought, I figured I would at least throw my 2cents in. I'd have to see what it looked like in that corner to really make an assessment.


*7 would be about a 220ft hole. I forgot to add the distance.

Jaysus
05-12-2010, 10:04 AM
I like that one Russ

Gamecock
05-13-2010, 12:11 AM
http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p83/russ30/Disc%20Golf%20Course%20Pics/summervillecopy.jpg

Okay, for starters... this is the first time I've done this, so yes... It may not be perfect. ;)

You have included some good hole ideas, while avoiding that middle wetland. The National Guard might be sensitive to that.

Those last 2 holes might cause some problems with baseball/softball practice, but they will have some new fields to use instead of this one. I may have tried to cater to them too much in my latest design. There are LOTS of possible combinations! Thanks for taking the time to post a layout.

By the way, I talked to a Dorchester County official today who knows those 2 park officials who were there on Monday morning. (I had asked him about a new Dorchester County DGC long ago.) He said he may be able to help by making the request for a long term lease to this land (I like 99 years @ $1 per year) a mutual one from both the County AND the Town of Summerville. That could be a BIG help! He said he'd make a call tomorrow and call me back on Friday! I also told him Charleston County added another new DGC.

I'm confident he is on our side as well! He seemed impressed that the park officials were there to meet with disc golfers who actually live in this area. He has brought youngsters to that kids playground and liked idea for a Kids Priority practice Hole too.

Gamecock
05-13-2010, 12:25 AM
I like that one Russ

For a first attempt at online course design, he did one heck of a job, didn't he? :)

Thanks for letting him (and us) know you like his layout. Please feel free to post one of you own if you'd like to.

Earlier in this thread, I included a link to Irfanview, a superb freeware image viewer/converter/editor that has been downloaded over 50 million times. Many claim it's almost as good as Photoshop and in some ways even better (faster because it loads so quick and so intuitive you will NOT have to read a manual to figure out how to use it). That's what I used for making mine (Easy!).

RussMB
05-13-2010, 02:41 AM
Thank you!! I'm glad ya'll liked it! I hope that it helps!

Gamecock
05-15-2010, 12:52 AM
Below are a few photos of those used tires we positioned (with pole + flag in middle) for park officials. There are 2 in first shot, looking to far corner. :)

http://www.parkcirclediscgolf.com/gahagan-tires-1.jpg

Below is a photo of the other far corner (between them would probably be the longest hole on the course) on side of park along West Carolina Avenue).

http://www.parkcirclediscgolf.com/gahagan-tires-2.jpg

Below is a shot of the basket position tucked into a mowed area near the end of the abandoned bleachers. Obviously, those need to be disassembled...

http://www.parkcirclediscgolf.com/gahagan-tires-4.jpg

Last shot of proposed disc golf basket locations at Gahagan Park in Summerville SC (we had 7 such locations without using the "wetland" area in middle).

http://www.parkcirclediscgolf.com/gahagan-tires-3.jpg

Gamecock
05-15-2010, 01:19 AM
I posted a message about this thread in forum for Charleston Disc Golf Club. If a local wants to see this property in person, here's how to do that...

#1 - Park somewhere in front of the Kids Playground and walk around it on left.

#2 - Go under chain shown in the below photo. At the back of this building (contains 2 rest rooms + water fountain for kids), the proposed first hole tee is on the left (going under clearing for wires you can see here). The Kids Priority/Practice hole is on the right. If you walk straight ahead, that's where the finishing hole #9 would be. By all means, bring your disc bag and aim for trees while you are walking around to check out the area. Pretty cool? :D

http://www.parkcirclediscgolf.com/gahagan-chain.jpg

Shodai
05-19-2010, 06:22 PM
As a member of the Charleston Disc Golf Club and a resident less than 2 miles from this park, I will find a way to pledge $100 and my time and back breaking effort to see it through to finish if you guys can get it landed and started. Let me know how I can help and any free time I have is yours.

Tracy Stephens
CDGC since 2008
shodai@vzw.blackberry.net

Gamecock
07-07-2010, 07:36 PM
As a member of the Charleston Disc Golf Club and a resident less than 2 miles from this park, I will find a way to pledge $100 and my time and back breaking effort to see it through to finish if you guys can get it landed and started. Let me know how I can help and any free time I have is yours.

Tracy Stephens
CDGC since 2008
shodai@vzw.blackberry.net

Tracy,

Sorry I did not reply to this earlier. Thank you kindly for your generous offer of both time and money. I hope to get the project moving forward very soon!

If you live that close to Gahagan Park, you are probably also not far away from the Coastal Center. I've talked with some of the supervisors there about us putting in 9 baskets there too. Sadly, they do not have the funds for baskets themselves, but they sure have some ideal land! In fact, we did get permission to install 9 poles there for a temporary/obstacle course there.

If you want to play it, you need to check in at the office for a visitor sticker. It's located on the front right side of the property (if looking from Miles Road). If we can get 9 baskets in Gahagan Park and another 9 put in at the Coastal Center, that would be 18 total holes in Summerville and Dorchester County. There's also been talk of 9 over at Fort Dorchester Park, but that area may be too historic, plus there is a fee for visitors at that park.

The Town of Summerville also has park land nearby Summerville Medical Center.

Let's talk about it sometime SOON and see what can be done to push this...

Thanks again for your kind offer(s). If you want to go see the property and try making a layout for Gahagan to post in this thread, that would be great!

billnchristy
07-07-2010, 07:45 PM
Glad to see this is still moving forward, keep up the good work!!

heelboycraig
07-25-2010, 02:36 PM
Update

After all the discussion, plans for this course are being scrapped. Here's (http://www.charlestondgc.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=215) the local note.

Gamecock
08-10-2010, 06:48 PM
Update

After all the discussion, plans for this course are being scrapped. Here's (http://www.charlestondgc.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=215) the local note.

Well, I don't intend to give up on this project so easily... I knew going in we would be facing some naysayers who simply want to maintain the status quo.

I first talked to the gentleman named in that CDGC thread well over 2 years ago. It's really not his call to make - at least not by himself. The meeting we had was essentially with 2 different people with authority over that guy.

I may have been pushing a bit too hard for fast progress myself. I thought it best for me to back off a little. We do need to get permission from SC National Guard to put in baskets on their property that adjoins Gahagan Park.

That's where it stands now. To say plans are "being scrapped" is misleading.

The Town of Summerville seems willing to pay the cost to buy 9-10 baskets!

Dorchester County may also be willing to help pay for some baskets if needed.

If we can find a better location for a course, that would be great. I talked with the key guy from the Coastal Center (near Gahagan Park) and he seems willing to let 9 baskets be installed on their land IF somebody else buys them!

Nothing worthwhile is ever easy.

Gamecock
10-27-2010, 11:35 PM
Welcome to any SHS 76ers (Summerville High School Class of 1976) who might be reading this thread. :)

We were all brainstorming in a new Facebook group about dates, times and a possible fun activity for all of us to bring our kids to in early Fall next year, which will be the 35th Anniversary for the Class of '76. Naturally, I think it would be FUN to possibly have a disc golf competition right in Summerville. I bet we'd have a bunch of "Never-Evers" and could even have a contest division just for all them. Hehe Using the Park Circle course can be a backup.

Having a new self-imposed "deadline" gives me new incentive to try to push to get this project done by then! :D

We have got some critics (who don't want disc golf played in Gahagan park) to deal with. But nothing that can't be overcome. Maybe some town officials up for election can make promises? ;)

denny ritner
11-17-2010, 06:34 PM
interesting concept - design by online comittee

notes:

always err on the side of safety
- if in doubt safety-wise, make shorter holes
- 6 holes is not a bad thing, if it means they are good and safe (not saying that you can't have 9 good and safe holes on this property). it doesn't matter if no one travels to play the course. short courses like this are for the locals.
- mando's for "safety" are a BAD idea. mando's for challenge are OK. many players won't know what a mando is, choose to throw the other way anyway or miss the mando with a ripped shot that's way off line.

nothing beats having a seasoned designer walk the property.

enjoy the process and the final product!

Gamecock
11-21-2010, 07:47 PM
interesting concept - design by online committee

I thought so too. We remain open to suggestions if anybody still wants to whip up a layout for this land. Some really good ideas have already been brought up!

Sadly, there's definitely some extra red tape to cut through (with multiple government agencies), but that doesn't mean we will just give up! I have informed some key government players this effort remains an ongoing quest. As a result, we may even get plans going on another course in future local parks!

enjoy the process and the final product!

Thank you! While the process so far has been more frustrating than enjoyable, I know having the final product (a new 9 hole course) in the ground would be GREAT!

Let me ask this...

The land for my proposed "Kiddie Practice Hole" is 100% on the Gahagan Park property that has nothing to do with the South Carolina National Guard at all.

Would it worth the effort to get just a Single DG Basket installed for practice?

Maybe it can be a small but possibly significant step towards a 9 hole course?

It's possible some holes could go around the very outside of this park as well.

UPDATE:

In the most recent election, there was a special referendum for Dorchester County SC on a $5,000,000 "GENERAL OBLIGATION BONDS TO FUND COSTS RELATED TO WATER QUALITY, FORESTS, PARKS, AND WILDLIFE HABITAT". It passed with 70.8% Majority! It's possible some of those funds could be used to bring Disc Golf to the Town of Summerville and/or Dorchester County!

If YOU live in this area and are willing to help (show up with us at a County Council Meeting), please respond either in this thread and send me a PM here in this forum. I plan to compose a preliminary long-term lease request letter for the SC National Guard to allow this empty land adjacent to Gahagan Park boundary to be used for a free public DG course. Ideally, officials from both the Town of Summerville and Dorchester County will agree to submit it jointly.

Maybe that can be TWICE as persuasive, compared to a letter by either one?

Thanks for ANY feedback and/or encouragement!

Gamecock
05-13-2011, 04:13 PM
There was a local election on Tuesday of this week...

The Town of Summerville SC will finally have a new mayor (Bill Collins) for first time in over Forty-Five years! That's how long Mayor Berlin G. Meyers has been in office.

Yes, we had to wait until after this election to make another "push". That's finally over now. I am confident we'll make some significant progress for a Dorchester County SC Disc Golf Course SOON!

If you are a SC Lowcountry disc golfer willing to help with this project, please post a message here.

Thanks!