Forced overhand

[optidiscic]

Would like to design a hole with a forced overhand. Over some high bushes to a basket in view atop a cliff. It would be an interesting way to make a 150 footer more interesting What r your thoughts

[DavidSauls]

As a player who's shoulder injuries preclude throwing overhand, I'd hate it.

If a hole forces specialty shots---overhand, rollers, what have you---it's a little rough on beginners and those who prefer to fly their discs.

If a hole FAVORS specialty shots, but leaves an option for flying the disc, that's a different story. It rewards those who have rounded out their game with such tools, without stranding those who haven't.

[WillACarpenter]

Would like to design a hole with a forced overhand. Over some high bushes to a basket in view atop a cliff. It would be an interesting way to make a 150 footer more interesting What r your thoughts

There would be those that take the Air Bounce instead of the overhead :)

\/\/

[mashnut]

There's a hole near me where an air shot other than an overhand is really tough to pull off, but there are a couple lines for a roller. I like that hole even though my overhands and my rollers suck, it forces me to try different kinds of shots.

[_.-Dut-._]

Im not a huge fan of the idea. We have a hole in NC that kind of forces the overhand shot over some bamboo and its not all that creative.

[solomon.trenton]

Im not a huge fan of the idea. We have a hole in NC that kind of forces the overhand shot over some bamboo and its not all that creative.

but hes using natural landscape to force it. it all depends how high the bushes are though. how close the tee pad is to the bushes and if there might be a possibility of a high backhand

[Technohic]

I think it would be hard to FORCE an overhand. There is a hole that I play often; I think I have talked about a lot lately, where I feel overhand is a must; but my friends all have done more of a sky anny for years. Just recently, my one friend has asked to learn to throw overhand as the trees have gotten taller over the years, but he is a below 300' drive so, someone who could throw further probably could still pretty easily throw the sky anny.

[cjskier]

As a player who's shoulder injuries preclude throwing overhand, I'd hate it.

If a hole forces specialty shots---overhand, rollers, what have you---it's a little rough on beginners and those who prefer to fly their discs.

If a hole FAVORS specialty shots, but leaves an option for flying the disc, that's a different story. It rewards those who have rounded out their game with such tools, without stranding those who haven't.

100% agree. Some of us cant throw overhand, due to physical issues, not desire to do so.

[Dfwdscglfr]

if you cant throw over hand cant you spike hyzer or grenade

[Fender088]

I understand what people are saying about not being able to throw overhand, but there are courses with 250+ shots over water. If you can't make it then you have to take a drop. If you can't throw overhand, then maybe you have to skip the hole. Might not always be fair, but I think it's worth checking out.

[DavidSauls]

I understand what people are saying about not being able to throw overhand, but there are courses with 250+ shots over water. If you can't make it then you have to take a drop. If you can't throw overhand, then maybe you have to skip the hole. Might not always be fair, but I think it's worth checking out.

I have a private course with a 250' forced water carry. There are similarities, and also differences.

It's rare to see a forced water carry. Usually, there's a bail-out option. The easiest route is to carry the water but there's a way to go around, even if it costs a stroke or two.

Ours IS forced---but we've got a shorter, safer tee for those who need it.

Among the differences are that "flying" a disc is the normal mode of disc golf. Virtually everyone who plays, flies the discs. Overhand is a tool that most players don't use, so a bit of an odd thing to require.

Another is that I know many fine players who can't overhand due to injury. Hang around the Masters and Grandmasters divisions, you'll see more of this.

One similarity is that it depends on the course. Our course is designed for Pro & Advanced players, and we give fair warning to anyone coming out that they'll face the forced water carry. A forced overhand would be a little more defensible on a private course or gold course than a regular, general public course.

But I'd still suggest an alternate route, even if it's likely to cost a stroke, for those who absolutely can't throw the overhand.

[WillACarpenter]

. If you can't throw overhand, then maybe you have to skip the hole. Might not always be fair, but I think it's worth checking out.

I don't know WHAT you could put in front of me that I would have to skip the hole. There's NO WAY I wouldn't just have a crappy layup with an Elevator Shot and just hope a good upshot will get me up and down in 3.

If you feel like you can't shoot the hole, at all, without a specific shot, you need to learn to get more creative. Play some putter rounds or something.

If you've never tried it, putters don't do the same thing overhead...it's fun to watch people learn that lesson the hard way...

\/\/

[tallpaul]

I've been a good short range (@250 ft.) overhand player for many years. Never have learned to do much overhand with a putter though. :( :)

[Kwick]

Sedgley Woods, Hole 10 Blue 171 ft. Has a nice lefty hyzer, can float it over the top, but many righties tommy it right over. (I can't post pictures)

It's a great hole to tommy, but gives other options

[Jax11]

Mason Country Beast has a nasty little 140 foot guarded by a line of trees. When we were fairly new to the game my brother Dad, and I all threw overhand thumbers and walked away with birdies.

Here is the hole basket is up the path and a little to the right.http://www.dgcoursereview.com/course_pics/709/d5f916e3.jpg

Edit: Now that I look at it again its by no means a forced overhand, but that type of shot worked well.

[Karl]

There are a LOT of holes which "force" a person to throw a RHBH low hyzer shot (which some people can't throw) - so why NOT "force" a person to throw an overhand?

And if you can't throw an overhand, then you are just not "worthy" of say birdieing the hole.

Now let me retract my "force" word and say "HEAVILY PREFERRED" towards an overhand! A hole which has a 15' high bush directly in front of you about 10' feet out and plays about 120' could be birdied by an overhand (and probably not a spike hyzer shot - the key here is having the BACK of the tee box as the optimal launch spot!). I should though have an "left" or "right" route (roller, fh, bh) around either or both sides to allow the player an "easy" 3...but maybe not the 2.

Karl

[DavidSauls]

Now let me retract my "force" word and say "HEAVILY PREFERRED" towards an overhand!

This is a distinction I'm trying to make.

I'm opposed to "forced" but fine with "heavily preferred", though it does depend a bit on the specifics.

I'm not sure how to force an overhand, anyway, unless there's a 20' wall or building or perhaps hedge right in front of the tee. But if you can do it, I'd advise against it.

If the "heavily preferred" means that the non-overhand throw will likely lose a stroke to the player with an overhand in his arsenal, fine.

(Well, more or less fine, since I'm aesthetically opposed to overhand shots, and don't find such holes much of an asset. But that's my problem, not a design issue.)

[t i m]

I agree with the "heavily preferred" overhand hole. I've played holes like this (hard to think exactly where), where the overhand shot was an easy 2/3, but throwing anything else was a 3/4/5/6... but it was still physically possible to get there with other types of shots.

To make the hole you're talking about work, you'd still need a path somehow from the teebox to the pin -- some way for people to walk to their discs. No reason that path shouldn't be 5' wide and uphill, where a person could try a low-percentage uphill airshot through the gut... again, very low percentage, but it does give an option. It also gives people a way to SEE the pin from the teebox. On short, tricky holes, I really like a small window where it is possible to see the pin.

There is a hole on one of the Nashville-area courses where the route to the pin from the teebox basically forces a huge anhyzer or spike forehand way, way out to the left, making the basket probably play close to 400'... But looking from the front of the teebox, you can see a 3' wide path cut through dense bushes/trees where you can see the pin, framed by branches like a piece of art. There is a one-in-a-million chance of splitting the visible alley -- you are forced to go way out to the left, but it is so cool that despite the forced big anhyzer, you can still see the pin clear as day from the tee. In this case, this is not a direct parallel, since the visible pin is not a playable route, but I did like knowing where the basket was from the tee... such a great idea.

[Karl]

David and Tim,

My contention for very limited "use" of such a hole where 1 may cost you a full stroke if you DON'T use the 'preferred shot' is that - until I taught myself to throw RHBH, I was "a lesser player". In fact 4 years ago, I took a 5 and a 6 (due to OB all right and a meandering center stream) on a hole in a tournament where those with a normal rhbh took 2s, 3s, and 4s...lost the tournament by 2 shots! That day taught me that hole ARE designed for specific shots (there was NO overhand, flicks hyzer right, and rollers were caught by the stream).

Maybe I'm bias (as I've got every shot in the bag now), but I don't think ANY forcable shot is bad - unless it forces you to lose a disc (no bail out and a 250'+ carry, etc.). Sometimes - as was the case in my scenario - you HAVE to lose a stroke if you are "unworthy" (as I was because I didn't have that arrow in my quiver). Just don't make a course with more than 1 or 2 of ANY type of hole which demands 1 certain type of shot.

Karl

Ps: Although a "theme course" (which virtually forces a different type of shot on every hole) might be fun - and certainly would be a learning experience.

[DavidSauls]

Have you played RIPT?

[Karl]

Yeh, but for some reason I didn't get "into it". I'd just rather play a course using a certain type of throw off each tee. This does a couple of things: 1) it puts you in places (on that course) that you'd normally never even see (or want to see again !!), 2) it teaches you the limits of a certain shot, and 3) it really grooves that throw.

Karl

[DavidSauls]

I was kidding about the RIPT, of course.

I'm waiting for someone to design a roller-only hole---an inpenetrable hedge, too high to clear, limbed up to give just about 2' clearance off the ground. Or maybe just a rail 2' off the gound, marked as a mando (you must go under it).

[Karl]

Me too! Although some people would try to "beat the you-have-to-throw-a-roller" mentality by throwing a RHBH skip shot (...just let'em try :p ).

Karl

[magictenor1]

As a player who's shoulder injuries preclude throwing overhand, I'd hate it.

If a hole forces specialty shots---overhand, rollers, what have you---it's a little rough on beginners and those who prefer to fly their discs.

If a hole FAVORS specialty shots, but leaves an option for flying the disc, that's a different story. It rewards those who have rounded out their game with such tools, without stranding those who haven't.ditto!

[Karl]

OK, just back from a business trip (no dg though...).
And I don't want to "get into an argument about this", but...

If one has an injury that stops them from throwing bh (and can only throw fh or oh), a really low ceiling r to l shot "virtually forces" them to throw "a certain way" - one they CAN'T - or pay the consequenses. I see absolutely no difference in that hole / that shot and an 'oh-only' hole.

Karl

Ps: It was because of holes like this (which ARE very common) that 'forced' me to learn a bh!

[DavidSauls]

The distinction I make---and perhaps it's just a matter of my personal taste---is the difference between "flying" the discs and other throws (rollers, thumbers, etc.). By "flying" I mean gliding them, frisbee-like, more or less as they were designed.

It's not just an aesthetic distinction; virtually all players start out flying the discs and most continue to do so, on most shots.

Even if injuries limit delivery to FH or BH, there are are range of discs from very overstable to very understable, and a hole designed for flying the discs can be played. Perhaps not as easily as someone who has options to throw from either side, but the player who hasn't developed both throws, or who injuries limit them to one side or the other, still has a chance.

A hole that forces an overhand---and I'm still a little unclear if there's such a thing---eliminates the basic throwing motion that, presumably, virtually every disc golfer is capable of, in favor of one that some are not.

A hole that favors or rewards and overhand is entirely different.

I think a better analogy is a long forced water carry (say, 350'), with no option to bail out or go around. Beginners probably can't do it; some people will never have the distance to it; and some have injuries that prevent them from doing it. Not good. Except, perhaps, on a course designed for better players only.

[Karl]

I hear you David.

1) I agree with your '...not sure if there's really a forced oh or not hole' as I've seen Brinster throw a HUGE hyzer over trees I barely can oh over.

2) Also agree with '...no 'truly forced' situations' (like massive water crossing).

3) Your "the basic throwing motion that, presumably, virtually every disc golfer is capable of" may be a little off - as I'm sure there is somewhere someone who can't throw FH and BH by can OH. Better may be something akin to "old-school throwing" or "pretty throwing" ;) As I'm convinced the younger generation will see the benefits of oh throws :thmbup:.

4) There's no question that the newer discs are more oh-friendly, as a Birdie thrown oh just doesn't go too far :mad:.

5) Yup, bh will probably always be the dominant shot...but it shouldn't preclude the use of 'forced x shots and forced y shots' (where x might be an oh) IF - on that course - there is also y shots.

Karl

Ps: Always good to hear lucid thoughts.

[tstack10]

It would be fun to play and if your home course you could get good at that shot