Ski Hill Courses....be honest

[optidiscic]

I would like to start a honest dialogue about courses that are set on ski hills. It's happening more and more now that global warming has shortened winters and ski hill owners are scrambling to pull year round cash. I have a lot of opinions about ski hill golf that I don't think the majority will agree with. I really don't care for it :thmbdown: I really would like to hear some others opinions about what they enjoy about these courses and what they don't like...I would like a real discussion and not just "I love this course or that course...tell me what you don't like or like and back it up. Thanks to serious posters in advance.

[dreadlock86]

hmm, interesting topic.

only one i've ever played was emory park in buffalo. probably not a good example though. i will be playing at the one in teton village in jackson hole next month though, i'll chime in then.

what don't you like about these courses? what DO you like about them?

[billnchristy]

I have never played one (imagine that, not many ski hills in ATL) but the downhill shots intrigue me because there is nothing more fun than chucking a putter 400+

[optidiscic]

I have played 5 ski hill courses......definetely a different type of DG experience...I enjoy some things about these courses but it's a real mixed bag for me...I just think once you get past the veil/gimickiness of the big throws that usually the DG experience is really not that pure or enjoyable.

[zenbot]

I would like to start a honest dialogue about courses that are set on ski hills. It's happening more and more now that global warming has shortened winters and ski hill owners are scrambling to pull year round cash. I have a lot of opinions about ski hill golf that I don't think the majority will agree with. I really don't care for it :thmbdown: I really would like to hear some others opinions about what they enjoy about these courses and what they don't like...I would like a real discussion and not just "I love this course or that course...tell me what you don't like or like and back it up. Thanks to serious posters in advance.
You've asked for our detailed opinions but didn't even offer your own. What are you hiding, man?


I've only played one ski course. Sunrise DGC (http://www.dgcoursereview.com/course.php?id=1884) in SoCal. (Yes, we have snow in SoCal.) I think it's not typical of seasonal courses as it just isn't up a slope down a slope. The 1st 9 plays pretty level and is carved out of woods that aren't used for ski slopes. What I do like about the ski run holes is that they are already cleared out and have distinct fairways.

[deadbody]

I've played 2, Hyland SSA (hate it) and GIants Ridge (love it) for me what I hate is when the distance and the uphill is the only difficulty. Hole 15 at Hyland is like 600 feet, up a steep slope, wide open. No skill to it other than can you throw it far. A lot of the holes there are like that, Open and long. That bores me and my small arm. Giants ridge is more technical. It is still long, but it has more woods, and is less about "Lets just climb up and down a ski hill" and more about a good DG experience.

[optidiscic]

There are always exceptions to the rule but this has been my experiences

Maintenance-practicially impossible to expect all of the grass to be mowed/maintained over 2 miles of ski hills..this leads to high grass/weeds/schule...that given the major distance your often throwing makes disc retrieval of on target throws a hassle

Fairways are usually wide but are difficult to stay on due to a few issue unique to the marriage of disc golf and mountains.....wind travels across the land and when it hits a mountain will updraft up a mountain (high speed gusts) or contour down a mountain (tailwind high speed) while this is often a lot of fun and requires knowledge of discs and playing the wind...it's not typical wind conditions and frankly impossible to master or tame...You are basically playing the percentages and hoping for the best...thus theres some luck involved...akin to playing in tropical storm wind conditions.. ..Also when throwing up these slopes your nose will undoubtedly be up and good luck if theres a headwind....typical uphill throws your reaching for a lighter disc....won't work way too flippy even if its a tee rex or XXX when your facing headwinds with your nose up. So you throw something heavy uphill etc etc these are often conditions that basically take skill out of the equation ...simply a matter of nature overpowering any skill, knowledge, or strategy you may have. Arguments can always be made that disc choice, technique, skill , strategy, can overcome the bigness of the mountain...I don't think this is always the case...Mother Nature wins a lot of the battles on the slopes from what I've seen. And when Mother Nature wins she takes your disc usually 200+ feet off the fairway down a wooded mountain slope with a 45 degree pitch...forget it...goner disc.

Throwaway discs is not you really playing your best DG....you really want to play with your favorite and best disc but I assume its like taking your hot gf to a party full of pre med athletes who are rich....you really don't wanna tempt fate if you have any insecurity about your game. I'd rather play my best discs and not punk out.

What inevitably happens is you throw conservatively and never truly rip a drive...it's a test of skill but I would rather throw a typical full throttle drive on top of the world hole than a series of fairways down a mountainside with danger L and R with winds and a 800 foot spread over a 200 foot elevation change. I know you think that sounds fun and it is I will admit I'm hooked and do find it challenging but once the gimmick wears off I d rather be playing real DG holes on a real Course.

Lets not forget about how ugly a ski hill looks in summer...sure the vistas are glorious...but your typically surrounded by ski lifts, equipment, rocks, roads, and blight in my opinion....thats been my experience at least....I prefer a real course.

Your hiking up and down a mountain..it's extremely grueling...some courses you actually climb from base to peak and get one or 2 big throws to enjoy after all that hard work...others you might get a ski lift ride up and play downhill but mountain terrain even downhill is quite gnarly....others you might get a lift ride but have to play down and then back up to ride back down...brutal! If you have not done it and your over 30 lets just say its a commitment...something else to consider...typically lack of trees means a lot of sun exposure in the middle of the day in the middle of the summer and your on a mountain hike trying to plat DG..ideally we could play these courses in late fall or late afternoon but often these courses are closed at these times.

I could rant on and probably will if this thread has legs.

I will admit I enjoy alot of the features of mountain golf but I feel I am in the minority when I speak about things I dont really like about ski hill golf.

I dont fancy myself an expert but I'm hardly a newcomer or clueless to how to play in wind and elevation either.

[cydisc]

Ski hill ground presents a lot of potential. The skilled designer recognizes that that type of ground is not limited to just the uphill and downhill.

[TheWCG]

I agree completely with cydisc. I think Disc golf is always more fun and interesting when elevation is utilized within a course. And It is up to the skilled designer to incorporate the lay of the land. There is always more land involved on a ski hill than just the ski runs themselves. I think its an excellent use of the land. And replying to this thread I'm thinking of Winter Park in Kewaunee, WI. Excellent use of the land and excellent course. Props to Superberry...

[Jimb]

I've played just the Nemacolin Resort ski slope course. It's an OK course.

There are two wooded holes, #4 & #5, running between the different slopes that are kind of cool. There are a couple holes that do make you turn the disc, #7 a big RHBH Hyzer tee shot and #9, a nice RHBH Anhyzer or roller.

The other 5 holes are pretty straight forward with decent length. And unfortunately, it doesn't even take real advantage of the big elevation drops. The ski slopes actually start at the top of the hill and you ride the lift back up when you're done. So the course starts at the top of the hill and only works about half way down to the bottom before turning and eventually coming back up the hill.

It's not one of my favorites, but it is kind of cool for a change. I also think that the novelty aspect of it makes it enjoyable.

I'm hoping to get to play The Wisp this year, too. Or maybe IUP College Lodge... that one's on an former ski slope, right?

[deBebbler]

Maintenance-practicially impossible to expect all of the grass to be mowed/maintained over 2 miles of ski hills..this leads to high grass/weeds/schule...that given the major distance your often throwing makes disc retrieval of on target throws a hassle

A hassle? Seriously? It's called "the rough" for a reason. Furthermore, a lot of ski hills have wooded slopes that have little to no growth on the floor. Most of the hill courses around here have NO maintenance other than trash collection. It makes the course more of a living entity than a man-made path.

Your game will be very different in April than in August, and that challenge is wonderful.


Fairways are usually wide but are difficult to stay on due to a few issue unique to the marriage of disc golf and mountains.....wind travels across the land and when it hits a mountain will updraft up a mountain (high speed gusts) or contour down a mountain (tailwind high speed) while this is often a lot of fun and requires knowledge of discs and playing the wind...it's not typical wind conditions and frankly impossible to master or tame...You are basically playing the percentages and hoping for the best...thus theres some luck involved...akin to playing in tropical storm wind conditions.. ..Also when throwing up these slopes your nose will undoubtedly be up and good luck if theres a headwind....typical uphill throws your reaching for a lighter disc....won't work way too flippy even if its a tee rex or XXX when your facing headwinds with your nose up. So you throw something heavy uphill etc etc these are often conditions that basically take skill out of the equation ...simply a matter of nature overpowering any skill, knowledge, or strategy you may have. Arguments can always be made that disc choice, technique, skill , strategy, can overcome the bigness of the mountain...I don't think this is always the case...Mother Nature wins a lot of the battles on the slopes from what I've seen. And when Mother Nature wins she takes your disc usually 200+ feet off the fairway down a wooded mountain slope with a 45 degree pitch...forget it...goner disc.

Yes wind is a challenge, "difficult to master," but this argument of discs is rather absurd. I will keep a disc in my bag if I'm throwing over water (which there is precious little of near most ski hills), but if you throw it down the hill, you retrieve it, just like you would any other throw. Is your problem that it seems too much like work?

Red text is whining. Blue text is total bu!!s#!t.


Throwaway discs is not you really playing your best DG....I'd rather play my best discs and not punk out.

Punk out. You said it, not me.


What inevitably happens is you throw conservatively and never truly rip a drive...it's a test of skill but I would rather throw a typical full throttle drive on top of the world hole than a series of fairways down a mountainside with danger L and R with winds and a 800 foot spread over a 200 foot elevation change. I know you think that sounds fun and it is I will admit I'm hooked and do find it challenging but once the gimmick wears off I d rather be playing real DG holes on a real Course.

Gimmick? It is the hole. How is a drive from atop a hill a gimmick, but throwing over water, (or a stand of trees, or other obstacle) on "a real hole on a real course playing real disc golf" not a gimmick?


Lets not forget about how ugly a ski hill looks in summer...sure the vistas are glorious...but your typically surrounded by ski lifts, equipment, rocks, roads, and blight in my opinion....thats been my experience at least....I prefer a real course.

Hogwash. Every word.

Blight? Every n00b I take to a ski hill (and mind you, they are locals, so they have seen this place before) remark on the majesty, or the beauty, or some such. Never have I heard, "Oh my God, look how garish that chairlift is!"


Your hiking up and down a mountain..it's extremely grueling...some courses you actually climb from base to peak and get one or 2 big throws to enjoy after all that hard work...others you might get a ski lift ride up and play downhill but mountain terrain even downhill is quite gnarly....others you might get a lift ride but have to play down and then back up to ride back down...brutal! If you have not done it and your over 30 lets just say its a commitment...something else to consider...typically lack of trees means a lot of sun exposure in the middle of the day in the middle of the summer and your on a mountain hike trying to plat DG..ideally we could play these courses in late fall or late afternoon but often these courses are closed at these times.


Sometimes you climb the course twice in one round!!!

Waaaaaah. Yes, you probably aren't going to trudge some 18 hole ski hill course and then go to the dinner theater directly after, certainly not during some July afternoon, but big deal. Take a shower.

I am hella overweight, and I jump for joy (well, OK, it's more of a hop) when I have enough time to hit one of our local ski hills. I almost look forward to the fact that I will be a sweaty mess. Makes me feel I really earned those few birdies I get.

Next thing we know you will want a golf cart.


I will admit I enjoy alot of the features of mountain golf but I feel I am in the minority when I speak about things I dont really like about ski hill golf.


Based on the longevity of many of these courses, I would think that you are in the minority.


I dont fancy myself an expert but I'm hardly a newcomer or clueless to how to play in wind and elevation either.

I don't think you clueless, but definitely prejudiced. You reiterated many times that ski hill golf isn't a "real course." I think you just didn't like your score....and I can sympathize with that :)

Quite frankly, I initially fell in love with DG because I could enjoy the game of golf without enduring much of the pretentious attitude you are displaying here.

[optidiscic]

IUP is on a former ski hill and is probably the most enjoyable round of DG I have ever played.....not a typical ski hill course

[WillACarpenter]

Only one I've ever played was Black Diamond DGC @ Emery Park in South Wales (South of Buffalo) and I really liked the course. To be honest it was much less steep that I expected it to be, and I thought it was a fantastic place to enjoy this sport.

\/\/

[optidiscic]

Wow I won't get into a flame war with you....I said I wanted a dialogue and I mentioned that I based my opinions on my experiences. I knew this coming and its all good. I doubt weve played the same courses. I did make it clear that the maintenance is a problem in the fairways...not off? It's understandable too...who wants to ride a mower on a 30 degree slope or weed wack a mountain....thats an impossible feat regardless it still sucks to throw a good shot on a ski hill and land dead center of the fairway and still have a tough time finding your disc.

I stand by my points about mother nature having the ability to flip the most stable disc in your bag and throw a disc 200 ft down wooded rockslide slopes off the fairways to never be found again (again my experiences on some courses Ive played) I have played holes where I threw an overstable putter nose down straight down the slope mearly 2 feet off the contour of the slope and the upwind lifts the disc flips it upward into a paper plate and throws it like a 130g stingray nose up.....don't tell me mother nature can't win the battle versus disc golf equipment, technique, and strategy. Often in DG you are playing the odds and ski hill golf is no different it's just the penalty is quite severe (lost disc, dangerous hikes into abyss etc... again I don't know if weve played the same courses)

I don't think I am whining I am just trying to see what people think about ski hill disc golf....I was actually pleased to throw a 74 on a blue 9000+ par 67 course at Blue Mtn In PA....despite not knowing where I was throwing much of the day....by some miracle we didnt lose a disc either although we had several search and rescue missions. It was a strenuous day and honestly I would like another crack at the mountain but I dont feel I am drawn to these courses as strongly as I am to well designed permamnent courses. I have played Aspen Mtn, Seven Springs, IUP College Lodge, Blue Mountain, Campgaw Reservation and have a few others on my radar...I wont stop playing them I just don't really enjoy them not much. These courses have some great holes and some great moments but on a whole I don't really find the experience to be all that.....oh and stone access roads permeate ski hills it's reality and I dont find stone roads to be nice fairways...although they are better than the high grass on the the non stone access road fairways.

[wolito]

If the course just have the holes playing up and down the open slope area, without using much of the trees aroundm then I might pass. If the course was designed well and was a pay course, then perhaps. I certianly can understand trying to bring in extra money.

[sackja]

Snowbowl in Flagstaff is fun for a once in a while throw but I wouldn't want that type of course to be my usual home course. Too brutal for me for an everyday course.

[cydisc]

I agree completely with cydisc. I think Disc golf is always more fun and interesting when elevation is utilized within a course. And It is up to the skilled designer to incorporate the lay of the land. There is always more land involved on a ski hill than just the ski runs themselves. I think its an excellent use of the land. And replying to this thread I'm thinking of Winter Park in Kewaunee, WI. Excellent use of the land and excellent course. Props to Superberry...

This is one of my top 10 courses and I hope to play it again this summer. It's a ski/sledding facility, but only a small fraction is actually played on the slopes. Very good use of the available land.

[zenbot]

I think a ski course is as good or as bad as the thought put into it. There are a lot of factors that can make it an awesome course which could, with the wrong vision, make it a really chitty course.

[optidiscic]

another factor is often the tees are not permt and often less than desireable.....blue mtn much to its credit has great permt tees..never saw that on a ski hill course b4.

[deBebbler]

Wow I won't get into a flame war with you....I said I wanted a dialogue and I mentioned that I based my opinions on my experiences. I knew this coming and its all good. I doubt weve played the same courses. I did make it clear that the maintenance is a problem in the fairways...not off? It's understandable too...who wants to ride a mower on a 30 degree slope or weed wack a mountain....thats an impossible feat regardless it still sucks to throw a good shot on a ski hill and land dead center of the fairway and still have a tough time finding your disc.

Yeah, I may have been a little harsh, but the whole "real golf" thing just pissed me off, more so for the fact that you did it more than once.

Different strokes, and all that.


I stand by my points about mother nature having the ability to flip the most stable disc in your bag and throw a disc 200 ft down wooded rockslide slopes off the fairways to never be found again (again my experiences on some courses Ive played) I have played holes where I threw an overstable putter nose down straight down the slope mearly 2 feet off the contour of the slope and the upwind lifts the disc flips it upward into a paper plate and throws it like a 130g stingray nose up.....don't tell me mother nature can't win the battle versus disc golf equipment, technique, and strategy. Often in DG you are playing the odds and ski hill golf is no different it's just the penalty is quite severe (lost disc, dangerous hikes into abyss etc... again I don't know if weve played the same courses)

We certainly haven't played the same courses, as I've never seen the paper plate thing, and I'm sure you've played more courses than me. Lost discs do suck, I will certainly agree. It just struck me that you were saying that playing ski hill courses meant you were throwing any and all strategy away, and only blind a$$ luck would get you in the basket.

I'm not saying that Mother Nature can't win, I'm just saying that it doesn't matter that you are playing a ski hill course. She can do that anywhere.


I don't think I am whining I am just trying to see what people think about ski hill disc golf....I was actually pleased to throw a 74 on a blue 9000+ par 67 course at Blue Mtn In PA....despite not knowing where I was throwing much of the day....by some miracle we didnt lose a disc either although we had several search and rescue missions. It was a strenuous day and honestly I would like another crack at the mountain but I dont feel I am drawn to these courses as strongly as I am to well designed permamnent courses. I have played Aspen Mtn, Seven Springs, IUP College Lodge, Blue Mountain, Campgaw Reservation and have a few others on my radar...I wont stop playing them I just don't really enjoy them not much. These courses have some great holes and some great moments but on a whole I don't really find the experience to be all that.....oh and stone access roads permeate ski hills it's reality and I dont find stone roads to be nice fairways...although they are better than the high grass on the the non stone access road fairways.

The whining thing came from the "tropical storm winds" hyperbole, which I thought was heavy handed. And you did say it negated any skill or strategy, which I wholeheartedly disagree with.

The reasons I like to play ski hills, and will drive quite a ways to do so, passing many courses along the way, are many of the things you list as detractions.

1) It is strenuous. My first course was on a relatively flat course in Lansing (http://www.dgcoursereview.com/course.php?id=731), and I remember it clear as a bell how taken I was with the fact that I was climbing up and down hills to traverse the course. When my buddy asked me if I wanted to go Frisbee Golfing, my mental picture was of long flat grassy links that I would be walking and throwing a disc down. It didn't really appeal to me, and the only reason I went was because I was bored. When I saw how these holes were "off the beaten path", my interest exploded. The sweat never bothered me.

2) Lack of traffic. Because it is a workout, a lot of the negative elements are not seen on the courses dawdling around interfering with my round. On occasion, on some hills, I am the only one there. It is nice when it happens.

The flat course around me always seems to have a drunken bum or two staggering around. That I can do without.

3) Elevation. Obviously. But not always in the most obvious spot. I have found that my favorite hole on a course never seems to be the Big Bomber hole (although I will bitch if there isn't one. I didn't climb this bastard for nothing.) Usually it is a hole with many peaks and troughs between the tee and the basket, but fairly level comparing the start and finish. They are slick uses of terrain and usually a hole I score very poorly on initally.

I will also say that I hate uphill holes because I suck at them.

4) You are punished for bad throws. And you should be.

---

That's it, really. They are a challenge, and I feel a nice sense of accomplishment when I'm done, no matter what my score is. And I must say, that I love the way they look, no matter how much equipment is around.

[optidiscic]

Lest I be targeted as a hater

PROS

Majestic Views

learn more about your discs as wind speeds or slows your disc down and elevation allows for the full flightpath of your disc to be enjoyed

well designed courses have great use of elevation as punishment which makes throws across hills and over valleys more exciting...it's not all about the big throws

It's different

you get a workout

[deBebbler]

I think a ski course is as good or as bad as the thought put into it. There are a lot of factors that can make it an awesome course which could, with the wrong vision, make it a really chitty course.

Very very true. Sometimes the abundance of paths, elevation changes and such, seem to overwhelm the designer and they end up making poor choices, where as when the land is much flatter, they are more conscientious due to the lack of options, and make better choices.

[optidiscic]

The tropical storm reference was in regards to the random gusts I have experienced on eastern and western mountains that gust randomly here and there that overpower a well thrown disc......particularly troublesome when your disc is in the air 5-15 seconds and at some point a gust changes direction or plays havoc.....thats what I meant by that comment.....a 10-15 mph gust on a mountain performs as much more powerful as it has more pressure exerting as it rises or descends on the mountain. Throw in the increased understability on true western mt courses and youre really talking about adjustments. Again not exactly my cup of tea...interesting but to me not the type of DG experience I prefer.

[optidiscic]

Very very true. Sometimes the abundance of paths, elevation changes and such, seem to overwhelm the designer and they end up making poor choices, where as when the land is much flatter, they are more conscientious due to the lack of options, and make better choices.

exactly....very good point

[deBebbler]

Lest I be targeted as a hater

PROS

Majestic Views

learn more about your discs as wind speeds or slows your disc down and elevation allows for the full flightpath of your disc to be enjoyed

well designed courses have great use of elevation as punishment which makes throws across hills and over valleys more exciting...it's not all about the big throws

It's different

you get a workout

All very true. You pretty much summed up why I like them.

It's happening more and more now that global warming has shortened winters and ski hill owners are scrambling to pull year round cash.

I'm not sure which part of this statement is more misguided.

Our ski season in 2008-2009 was long as hell. Shortened winters (which are no shorter now, than they were 25 years ago when I was a kid skiing these hills) aren't what is making ski hills hurt, it is onerous property taxes and skyrocketing liability insurance. Besides, none of the ski hills around here charge for rounds, save if you want a ride up the hill. So this is hardly a big revenue generating enterprise for the ski hills.

But, whatever. I like the thread, and I'm glad you posted.

[NateDiscFlip]

Thought course was fun, and worth the drive. Definitely a must if you stop by Traverse City, MI...as with playing the other courses in the area.

I hear one of the best course...Timberlee...was one of the best courses in Michigan which started as a ski hill. Apparently, the grounds were sold to a developer for condos.

Play them if you can, cause they may be gone.

[deBebbler]

The tropical storm reference was in regards to the random gusts I have experienced on eastern and western mountains that gust randomly here and there that overpower a well thrown disc......particularly troublesome when your disc is in the air 5-15 seconds and at some point a gust changes direction or plays havoc.....thats what I meant by that comment.....a 10-15 mph gust on a mountain performs as much more powerful as it has more pressure exerting as it rises or descends on the mountain. Throw in the increased understability on true western mt courses and youre really talking about adjustments. Again not exactly my cup of tea...interesting but to me not the type of DG experience I prefer.

Yessir. It's a bitch when it happens. :D

I wasn't thinking of western mountain courses in this thread, though, when I saw you were form Pennsylvania. I've never had the chance to play any of those, and I'm sure they put my courses to shame.

[deBebbler]

Thought course was fun, and worth the drive. Definitely a must if you stop by Traverse City, MI...as with playing the other courses in the area.

I hear one of the best course...Timberlee...was one of the best courses in Michigan which started as a ski hill. Apparently, the grounds were sold to a developer for condos.

Play them if you can, cause they may be gone.

Timberlee was the best. I miss it so.

Hickory is a great course, and #19 rocks (and actually ranks up with optidiscs point of awful times when you lose a disc) but that course was a total ponce compared to Timberlee. I think #24 was 875' summit to foot of the hill.

Par 3, of course.

[volklgirl]

More and more ski areas are adding disc golf as a low cost option to draw families to the areas in the summer time. They're learning that for financial viability in the summer, it can no longer just be golf oriented...they're also adding alpine coasters, mountain biking, climbing walls, outdoor movie screens, and water parks to keep families at the resort and spending time and money.

As with a course set on any type of property; it is what the designer makes of it. A badly designed course sucks whether it be on a ski hill or not, and vice-versa for a well-designed course.

That said, I LOVE the elevation changes inherent in ski hill courses, both for the work out and for the variety, options, and challenge it adds to the design. So far I've played Boyne Mountain, Crystal Mountain, Silver Mountain, Hickory Hills, and Mt Holiday, while Shanty Creek and Beaver Creek CO are on my to-do list. While I may curse the calf cramps during the climbs, I just keep in mind that I'm building my "ski legs" for the winter, and I never fail to be awestruck by the views and the unique holes that can be created.

[deBebbler]

That said, I LOVE the elevation changes inherent in ski hill courses, both for the work out and for the variety, options, and challenge it adds to the design. So far I've played Boyne Mountain, Crystal Mountain, Silver Mountain, Hickory Hills, and Mt Holiday, while Shanty Creek and Beaver Creek CO are on my to-do list. While I may curse the calf cramps during the climbs, I just keep in mind that I'm building my "ski legs" for the winter, and I never fail to be awestruck by the views and the unique holes that can be created.

Don't get too excited for Shanty Creek. Definitely a Barbrady course (nothing to see here.) You still need to play Hanson Hills in Grayling, tho.

Working on a new one right now in Harbor Springs. Will have more info Monday after the city council meeting.

Didn't you play Avalanche Park too? I seem to remember you didn't like it (and you are right.)

[volklgirl]

Don't get too excited for Shanty Creek. Definitely a Barbrady course (nothing to see here.) You still need to play Hanson Hills in Grayling, tho.
Good to know. I keep forgetting about Hanson, but I'm sure I'll get to it as I ride out there a couple times a year.

Working on a new one right now in Harbor Springs. Will have more info Monday after the city council meeting.
Cool, keep us updated! Where is it?

Didn't you play Avalanche Park too? I seem to remember you didn't like it (and you are right.)
The holes themselves at Avalanche are well designed, but the course as a whole is a great example of bad utilization of the property available.

[DannyM]

Although I've never had the opportunity to play any Ski Resort courses, as I live in the Southeast, I would think that there would be the possibility of having a great course from it. But if and only if, you have someone design the course who is an avid DG'er. If you just have someone come in and out a few random holes in on the property, then yeah, I could see it being a bomb. If you utilize the terrain, have some open downhill bombs, AND have some tight, short technical holes in some wooded sections, then yes, it could be a great course. It's just like any other disc golf course, if it is planned well, and designed well then ususally it turns out to be a good course.
I did get to go to a ski resort 1 time in the early 90's during the summertime, but it wasn't for disc golf, it was for cross country ATV racing. One year Winterplace in WV, allowed the GNCC to hold an event at the facility during the summer to try and get some revenue in during the "off-season". From a racer's standpoint it was a fantastic time, but I'd think for the landowner it wouldn't be because of the ruts that were put in all over. I do remember how beautiful it did look though!

[superberry]

This is one of my top 10 courses and I hope to play it again this summer. It's a ski/sledding facility, but only a small fraction is actually played on the slopes. Very good use of the available land.

cy, hopefully you can play Winter Park again and check out the new Gold tees we have installed which add some par 4 elements to the amazing balance the course offers.

[superberry]

By my own admission, I love ski hill courses and courses with extreme changes in elevation. I play ski hill courses all the time, and honestly they mostly suck because the designers are just the inexperienced workers on site who happen to play disc golf but no nothing of design standards or variety and balance. Most ski hill courses just play up and down the runs. In order to do my own comparisons of the two Winter Parks I played Winter Park in Colorado - it was awful. Purely just thrown in for the summer season and with little thought for longevity and being a disc golf must play destination course. It's not that I didn't love flinging discs for 1000' feet downhill, but everything else about the course was awful. At winter park in Kewaunee you don't play any ski hills liek in the mountains, just some sledding runs carved into the steep edges of a river valley. And in addition, those edges of the river valley have drainage creeks flowing into the river which carve extremely sharp gulleys and washouts through a wooded paradise for a disc golf adventure worth your trip from anywhere.

[NateDiscFlip]

Timberlee was the best. I miss it so.

Hickory is a great course, and #19 rocks (and actually ranks up with optidiscs point of awful times when you lose a disc) but that course was a total ponce compared to Timberlee. I think #24 was 875' summit to foot of the hill.

Par 3, of course.

My buddy already runs his mouth nonstop about discgolf...and he made sure we took the history lesson about timberlee.....i can only imagine, but have seen a couple of pics

[bpatton]

Thought course was fun, and worth the drive. Definitely a must if you stop by Traverse City, MI...as with playing the other courses in the area.

I hear one of the best course...Timberlee...was one of the best courses in Michigan which started as a ski hill. Apparently, the grounds were sold to a developer for condos.

Play them if you can, cause they may be gone.

I have only played two ski hill courses in 12 years of disc, Timberlee an Targahee National Forest in Wyoming. Despite have a real mountain range at Targahee, Timberlee was way sweeter. I lived in Traverse for about 2 months in 2000 and played that course almost every day. That course is still my number one favorite and I have played Flip and the Ludington courses, as well as Idlewild. I am pretty sure that last hole was much longer than 875', too. It was from the top of the hill to the parking lot.

That sign pointing the way to the next hole after you finish playing the base of the hill was classic. "UP" and an arrow that lead to an area with a picnic table that was only halfway up. Made you think you had made it to the tee... only to realize you had another 1/4 mile hike up the hill! I wish it was still there. I was heartbroken to learn that it was gone.

It was in such a weird location(right in the middle of a subdivision). I think they run tubes down it in the winter now. I looked up timberlee on google and they have a website for tubing. What a freaking waste.

[bpatton]

My buddy already runs his mouth nonstop about discgolf...and he made sure we took the history lesson about timberlee.....i can only imagine, but have seen a couple of pics

I have had fights with people about the existence of Timberlee. They always think I am talking about Hickory Hills, which I have not played. There is not a great record of the course, unless you know someone who has played there.

[Martin Dewgarita]

Just played Hyland today, wow, I'm not sure what to think - this is the only ski hill course i've played, it kicked my butt - not very technical shots, mostly wide open big arm throws, and crazy elevation. One thing is for sure, if I played this course more often i'd be in much better shape and about 50 lbs lighter. I hit metal on hole 18 (there were witnesses, I would have gotten signatures in the event of an ace on that one), it would have been an incredible first ace at 710 feet! I would probably play more often if they allowed dogs, I had to make a special no dog road trip for that one, poor Forest didn't get to play today.

[deBebbler]

My buddy already runs his mouth nonstop about discgolf...and he made sure we took the history lesson about timberlee.....i can only imagine, but have seen a couple of pics

His name wouldn't happen to be John, would it? :)

[deBebbler]

Cool, keep us updated! Where is it?

Kiwanis Park in Harbor Springs. The front 9 follow an old YMCA training course, with 9 being the 510' downhill bomber, and the back 9 through some less traveled area. Will be shorter, tighter in the trees. Kind of like Log Lake Park with elevation changes, and I actually mean that in a good way.

We had limited space to work with, but I think we did a good job. I'm gathering the all of the final data and I will post it under courses in development after the meeting monday night.



The holes themselves at Avalanche are well designed, but the course as a whole is a great example of bad utilization of the property available.

Oh, yeah. That's so right, you can say it twice.

However, I love playing that course. Don't know what it is, but after I played it for the first time in 2002, I was hooked.

Have been talking to some folks who say they are working on a redesign. It sounds good, in theory, but I'm not holding my breath, though.

[Jax11]

Played Hickory Hills a couple weeks ago and loved it. I wouldn't call it an open mountain, even the big bomber shots had trees lining the fairway. Most of the holes on the actual ski runs were sheltered by trees, and on the day I played it wind was a non factor. The whole course created a really neat feeling of adventure. To be honest I feel like some of the old ski equipment added to the ambiance.

I live in the Chicago land area and the elevation on a lot of the Michigan courses is just fantastic.

[jblough]

Just played IUP College Lodge today. I live about an hour from there and I try to get out at least once a month (sometimes weekly in the fall). The trip, which feels more like two hours, is totally worth it every time. What I enjoy about the course is that it doesn't exclusively rely on the hills, but rather incorporates them into a memorable downhill end for the front and back nines. Challenging technical holes add balance to the open elevation shots. Also, even though College Lodge is seasonal, it doesn't feel as temporary as other ski courses I've played (Wisp Deep Creek and Seven Springs).

On a side note that adds to my love for College Lodge, I birdied #18 for the first time, thanks to a nice hyzer flip that went forever. Man that course is fun!

[sloppydisc]

I would like to start a honest dialogue about courses that are set on ski hills. It's happening more and more now that global warming has shortened winters and ski hill owners are scrambling to pull year round cash. I have a lot of opinions about ski hill golf that I don't think the majority will agree with. I really don't care for it :thmbdown: I really would like to hear some others opinions about what they enjoy about these courses and what they don't like...I would like a real discussion and not just "I love this course or that course...tell me what you don't like or like and back it up. Thanks to serious posters in advance.


Just wondered where you live. Last winter was one of the coldest in something like 100 years. Almost ALL the scientists involved in the global warming scam were caught falsifying data, or hiding data to forward their political aganda, AND obtain government grants illegally. And on top of all that, even the lying, stealing scientists agree the globe has cooled since 1999.

As for the real question of your post. I have no clue. Never played one. Just didn't want a false premise out there floating around the internet. No need to thank me, just doing my part.

[optidiscic]

Just wondered where you live. Last winter was one of the coldest in something like 100 years. Almost ALL the scientists involved in the global warming scam were caught falsifying data, or hiding data to forward their political aganda, AND obtain government grants illegally. And on top of all that, even the lying, stealing scientists agree the globe has cooled since 1999.

As for the real question of your post. I have no clue. Never played one. Just didn't want a false premise out there floating around the internet. No need to thank me, just doing my part.

I never knew Glen Beck was a disc golfer...seriously though it's been a strategy for years around east coast ski hills to attempt to increase off season revenue through a plethora of activities. The fact is the ski seasons have been shorter and shorter over the past 30 yrs. Ski Hill operators will continue to search for ways to increase revenue during off seasons.....global warming or not...but since the shortened ski seasons the last 20 yrs have seen many increased summer strategies employed by east coast ski hills.

[discNDav]

I have played Solutide ski resort in Utah years ago, IUP once and Blue Mtn in PA 3 times in the past year and love ski disc golf courses. I'm tired of hitting trees (especially off the tees) and can enjoy my disc in the air such a long time if I throw it well. I also ski at Blue Mtn and the Paradise trail is my favorite since I'm still not a great skier and this just happens to be where most of the disc golf course is! So I love DG at Blue!

[sloppydisc]

I'll bet Glenn Beck couldn't DG to save his life. Doesn't lookk all that coordinated.

Original question. I haven't played one, but it sounds like it would be cool. I plan on hitting a little 9-holer on whiteface Mountain in NY next week. I'll chime back in after that. It's supposedly built around the ski areas somehow.

[Gflap]

Sipapu in NM is an excellent ski resort course with nice flat rubber tees and excellent baskets with rec, advanced and pro tees for every hole (20 holes).

[Karl]

Opti,

Have to agree with you; ski hills are NOT the bomb (re: dgc) that they're supposed to be.
JMO.

Karl

[djschnabel]

Ski hills are like British ball golf. They are, and forever will be, an entirely different beast, akin to tennis on clay, grass, etc.

I have played Elm Creek in Maple Grove, MN, loved it, and Mont Du Lac in Superior WI, which may be my favorite course. Lager set it up as an homage to the holes in the Twin Cities that he loves and misses. Most of the holes travel through the woods behind the ski hill, which may or may not make it a true ski hill course. I am ashamed that I have not yet had the chance to play hyland hills in Bloomington, MN, but someday, someday.

I understand those who don't like to play ski hills. I like to play my DG early in the morning, void of most wind. We all have our preferences, favorite courses, favorite discs, etc. so let's all agree that ski hill courses do and will remain to have their place for disc golfers.

[Danger]

Only played one slope so far: Ski Sunrise in Wrightwood CA. Its designed by a professional (Dave Dunipace), so, you know. It's good ;)

Hah but in all seriousness, it hardly ever throws up or down an actual ski slope. Most of the course is in the woods and that makes it pretty cool. Sure, we spent a lot of time looking for discs in brush, but that was to be expected. There is only ONE crazy long epic downhill, and that's really all the course needs. Otherwise, its all professional.

I will be checking out a couple more this summer, at the very least:

Jackson Hole Ski Area (only a 10 hole, but I hear its pretty good)
Grand Targhee Resort. I hear this one is fairly short and flat when compared to other slope courses.

I think Mt. Baldy in Southern California can build an AWESOME course in their notch area. It's relatively flat but has some fantastic sloping features. I emailed them a pretty professional letter but they never responded. I emailed them a pretty un-professional letter about them charging $50 for mountain biking this summer, which is crazy because even REAL resorts charge less than 35. But thats a different issue, and they never responded to that one, either.

Anyway the point is, if they just put tee pads and baskets up and down the runs, well sure. The course will suck. If its been fine tuned by, say, Dave Dunipace, you might have something to write home about.

[tstack10]

Check out rating if most mountain disc golf courses...thy are fairly high. I've played solitude and it is great atmosphere for disc golf. Sorry if you don't like tons of elevation change, being on an uncrowded course and taking a lift up to play down but I think it is great. It's all about the adventure

[waynewf]

I played a ski hill course in NJ a couple of times. I'll never forget throwing this picture perfect FH shot with my Reaper down the side of the mtn on some 2,000 foot hole or something ridiculous like that....and then never being able to find it.

While I did enjoy that course and had some really fun shots on it, it was obviously tough to maintain and long grass plus long downhill hole = losing your favorite disc.

on the flip side, that course was the first course I took one of my buddies to and introduced him to the game...the next course I took him to, he thought was boring and wanted to play the ski hill course again:)

[waynewf]

Just wondered where you live. Last winter was one of the coldest in something like 100 years. Almost ALL the scientists involved in the global warming scam were caught falsifying data, or hiding data to forward their political aganda, AND obtain government grants illegally. And on top of all that, even the lying, stealing scientists agree the globe has cooled since 1999.

As for the real question of your post. I have no clue. Never played one. Just didn't want a false premise out there floating around the internet. No need to thank me, just doing my part.

Almost ALL the scientists huh? Funny how this grand conspiracy within the scientific community in order to defraud public funds has never been reported in any news outlet. ALL the scientists??

Oh you're talking about that ONE email that has been investigated 3 times and there is another investigation under way. Currently, there has been no evidence of any wrongdoing.

Learn the facts before you pop off junior;)

http://www.factcheck.org/2010/04/some-climategate-conclusions/

[TalbotTrojan]

Ski Hills are great places to loose discs as has been mentioned. I lost three discs in one round at Solitude, two of them on one hole. I still think they are some of the most challenging courses though and really enjoy them from that perspective. They are also going to have some of the most severe elevation changes that you will find anywhere. It is not bad or good, just different and a new challenge.

[dreadlock86]

I will be checking out a couple more this summer, at the very least:

Jackson Hole Ski Area (only a 10 hole, but I hear its pretty good)



i'm gonna be there at the end of july. can't wait to check out that course! when will you be there?

[tstack10]

Ski Hills are great places to loose discs as has been mentioned. I lost three discs in one round at Solitude, two of them on one hole. I still think they are some of the most challenging courses though and really enjoy them from that perspective. They are also going to have some of the most severe elevation changes that you will find anywhere. It is not bad or good, just different and a new challenge.

Solitude took one of my discs about a mile high in a tree from elevated tee box, they mostly eat discs because of overgrowth but there are a few cliffs i wouldnt go down to get discs if i over threw the basket.

[deBebbler]

Just wondered where you live. Last winter was one of the coldest in something like 100 years. Almost ALL the scientists involved in the global warming scam were caught falsifying data, or hiding data to forward their political aganda, AND obtain government grants illegally. And on top of all that, even the lying, stealing scientists agree the globe has cooled since 1999.

As for the real question of your post. I have no clue. Never played one. Just didn't want a false premise out there floating around the internet. No need to thank me, just doing my part.

*backflip* So right you can say it twice.

For a moment there, I was worried everyone on this site had the politics of Frank.

[deBebbler]

Currently, there has been no evidence of any wrongdoing.

:wall:

[Oregon_Nole]

I've only had the chance to play two, Mt. Hood Skibowl and Mt. Bachelor.

Mt. Hood was not all that fantastic. But it did afford some amazing views of Hood and there were a couple of fun holes.

Bachelor, on the other hand, is pretty sweet, so long as you don't mind throwing your discs onto lava rock. The design is really fun and quite varied, being more open, thus exposed to the ever-present wind at the beginning and end of the round, and more in the trees during the middle.

True, it is a work-out.

True, the wind will amplify any mistakes in your throw.

True, you will spend some time looking for discs if you don't pay attention to where it went...

But if you love elevation change, you can't beat a 1500' loss from start to end..

[optidiscic]

Blue Mt drops 1000 feet I can't imagine 1500 ft!!!

But if you love elevation change, you can't beat a 1500' loss from start to end..

[Danger]

i'm gonna be there at the end of july. can't wait to check out that course! when will you be there?

Ill be there this Saturday....maybe again later this season...who knows :)

[dreadlock86]

oh, you live in wyoming. :doh:

let me know how it is.

[sbinwien]

I have played on 2 ski slope DGCs and both were on beginner slopes. Both made very good use of the natural terrain, forest, trees, etc. There were only a couple big downhill shots and they required you keep your disc under control or you were in trouble. Putting also was very challenging with the slope, wind, water, etc.

I think there should be more.

[mashnut]

I've played a handful of ski hill courses, and it really depends on the design. I wouldn't want to play that type of course all the time by any means, but I think it's a lot of fun every once in a while to really test how well you can deal with the wind and elevation.

[adh56]

I agree with everyone that says it's all about the course design. I love courses in the woods but bad design = bad course

[NothinButChing]

only played ski hill once up at Solitude here in Utah def want to go again this summer when it warms up (if ever!) but there are down sides to these courses

[Danger]

Jackson Hole's 10 hole course on the ski slope was pretty 'meh.' It was good and everything, but not very inspired. After reading about many ski slope courses and seeing that they are mostly the same (wide open with extreme elevation), I can see how you don't like them. Ski Sunrise in Wrightwood is the exception to the rule. Los Angeles wins again.

[Hole In Four]

I've played quite a few courses in Utah, and Solitude is definitely one of my favorites. It's a different experience because many holes have severe elevation changes, which changes the way you throw and the discs you have to throw. It's much more challenging to me (which could be a positive or negative), and it's quite a hike, but Solitude is an extremely well designed course. I guess a downside is you often get discs stuck 200 feet up in a tree (so bring a slingshot!) But I absolutely love playing ski courses. (even though most of my comment was downsides...:doh:

[the_lung]

The issue is that designing a good state park or town park disc golf course is tough, and designing a good ski hill course is even more of a challenge.

Dan Doyle, father of the world class Warwick complex, would surely testify to this. He'd be the first one to admit that he's learned a great deal about ski hill course design and the results show when you compare the evolution from his initial Campgaw layout and then the re-designed layouts, to the two courses at Sugarbush, to the new courses at Blue Mountain in Pennsylvania.

I've now played a lot of ski hill courses over the last decade:

IUP College Lodge
Snowbowl at the 2003 Pro Worlds in Arizona
Campgaw, NJ
Wisp Resort in western Maryland
two Sugarbush, VT courses
Timber Ridge at Pro/Am Worlds 2008 in Michigan
J. Gary's masterpiece at Seven Springs in western PA
two Blue Mountain courses


From playing all these courses, I've noticed the following things about ski hill course design:

1) On flat ground, the course needs to basically start and end near the parking lot and the flow can go pretty much anywhere. On a ski hill, there are some very limiting constraints. Severe elevation changes, fairways on ski trails, lodges and other ski area facilities, etc. sometimes dictate the available options. The last thing you want is to get to the bottom too early and then have to play back uphill for a few holes before finishing. An early incarnation of Campgaw had players back at the base after hole 13, and then you had to climb back to the top of the mountain to play holes 14-18, which was just annoying.
2) Holes should not play directly uphill. It's too taxing to climb straight up the fallline and rarely results in an interesting hole. Holes which 'tack' their way cross hill and up are usually far more interesting holes and easier to walk as well.
3) Gravity is b***h and will do strange things to your disc, especially when combined with mountain winds. Longer holes and severe downhill holes need to have wider fairways and LARGE 'bail out' zones where a player can choose to throw a safe shot if he desires. Course designers should not count on disc golfers knowing to play it safe and should factor in that poor shots are going to result in lost discs which is no fun, and playing with a 'shag bag' of old discs isn't really a preferred option. Even though these courses are typically on private land with fewer golfers, safety should be considered as well and tees not put where a stray disc from another hole might land.
4) Throwing straight down the ski trail is fun, but soon gets repetitive and possibly even boring. I have found that the best holes at ski hill courses are the ones which play through woods and have nothing to do with the ski trails. I think some of the best holes at Timber Ridge were the wooded holes. I like the Base course at Sugarbush far better than the Peak course for this same reason. In the same manner, the back nine at IUP College Lodge is vastly better than the front nine, imo.
5) Holes and/or landing areas absolutely cannot be blind. Because of the aforementioned effects of gravity and wind it is absolutely critical that golfers are able to see where their shots are going to end up.
6) While ski hill courses are often strenuous and I wouldn't want to play one every time I wish to go disc golfing, I know that it's healthy exercise and don't mind the occasional foray. I am overweight by some 50+ lbs. and usually feel like garbage while playing ski hill courses not to mention the day after, but I know it's good for me.
7) I agree with some of your points, optidiscic but I fall well short of saying that I really don't care for them. With the majestic views and scenery of these courses, being able to watch the full flight of your disc, taking advantage of severe elevation changes and being able to throw a disc 500+ feet, there is just no substitute. An 'okay' design on a ski hill course and the experience one gets there almost always trumps that of a good design on a town park course.

[iloqutiss1]

Winter Park is my personal favorite course and it is a "ski hill" type of course but the ski hill is only part of the equation there and that's why its so good. I would agree with others here that if the focus of the course is up and down wide open ski runs it would suck after a couple of holes.

[Valktastic]

I've played: Targhee, Jackson, Canyons, Solitude, and Tamarack.

I have to question someone who says they don't like ski hill courses as such a general statement. That is like playing one or two park courses and saying "I don't like park courses." There are a lot of park courses I don't like but a lot that are awesome. As you play more ski courses you'll find that each course is unique. Some are wide open, others are real technical, and there are some that have a good mix of both.

Ski resorts are like others, they can be good or bad, but they typically have the added bonus of awesome atmosphere!!!!!!!!! Plus new challenges you don't get at most courses.

[Discette]

I love Mountain Golf! I have two Ski area courses in my favorites, Sunrise (now Sky High) in So Cal and The Canyons in Park City, Utah. These courses both exemplify what (Western) mountain golf should be. Not all uphill nor downhill, but with traversing shots and variety.

I have also played on cross county ski courses like Standing Rocks and Tower Ridge. Personally, I like em all. Probably because it seems like I have the place to myself and I feel connected with nature - two things that drew me to this sport in the first place.


I would have to disagree with OP on one point. It has been my experience that discs are much more stable at altitude. I can throw my super flippy roller disc at altitude and if I can even get it to turn over it still ends up crashing left as hard as a max weight Firebird. Knowing how discs fly at altitude is important for maximum enjoyment.

[MellowRob]

Ski Hill courses by their very description imply significant elevation change, and usually in the downward direction. There is also the implication of wooded alpine surroundings. Sounds like the ultimate change of pace to the vast majority of courses I play, which is why I love playing a summer ski slope course. I have only played 2, Solitude and The Canyons, and both are significantly different in character.

Solitude uses a lift on roughly half the days of the week to get you to the top. Very Cool. Otherwise you hump it up over 1000' of vertical with your gear. Then they use moderate elevation drops to work your way down the mountain, with a few sidehills and uphills mixed in. It is a top to bottom course, which I love. Sure, you might release too high, and end up deep in the rough, or high in a tree. Prepare yourself for that before you get there, or don't go. I have lost about 10 discs there over about 10 or so times played. But when I finally pured a long perfect S turn down the 1200'+ Hole18, and landed in the grass across the road at the bottom, the feeling was amazing for this flatland distance thrower of around 350'. Accuracy and extreme distance realized, finally. While the discs IMO feel more overstable at altitude, throwing downward with the slope at a 25-30 degree angle brings the flippiness quickly back in view. Toss in some wind gusts, and you have one complicated equation that you can't match on a flat or rolling course. Also, the rubber teepads there are nice temporary pads, and come out quick too.

The Canyons is an odd course in my mind, more high alpine course than ski slope, because you ride up and then ride down. Even though I liked the course, I felt like my experience was cheapened because they didn't let me have fun with all of that elevation drop I saw from the Gondola. Oh well, one day maybe...

Overall, the experience of playing a ski hill course is so unique, that I will never shy away from playing one if given the opportunity.

[optidiscic]

I'm the OP The cost of lift cost of lost plastic. Seasonal aspect and often uncared for high grass. Fear of losing discs and subsequent conservative play. Excessive wind and gravity acting to make firebirds flippy. So many gripes. Just not my cup of tea. I try to like these courses but I'm 0 for 4 thus far

[solomon.trenton]

i dont like when the course uses the ski trails as fairways