Dave242, OUT OF HIS MIND!

[tomjulio]

..with Dave's recent reviews of Flip, and Leviathan:

Leviathan:
http://www.dgcoursereview.com/reviews.php?id=1476&mode=rev#23320

Flip City:
http://www.dgcoursereview.com/reviews.php?id=468&mode=rev#23321

I am finally able to solidly state that he is out of his friggin' mind when it comes to ratings and probably not helping out the "other" 80% of disc golfers coming to this site for solid advice and course ratings.

Both these courses are my "home" courses, with Leviathan TRULY being my home course as I grew up across the street before it was a disc golf course. Flip a four and Leviathan a five? Please....

let's discuss shall we? :)
(we knew this was coming)

[tstack10]

I want to grow up next to a four or a five:(

[Jukeshoe]

I've heard other people mention that they thought Leviathan was better than Flip, after playing both in the same weekend. I think it totally depends on what rubric you use to review. As long as he provides solid reasoning for his rating, I don't see any problem with it.

[prerube]

He knew going into it that he was not going to give Flip a 5.
I don't think either reviews can be called bogus, but still the reviews are filled with his explanation of his rubric more than info on the course.
I don't think I would thumbdown either, but I can't thumb them up because I won't read through it all, I have it memorized: I fancy myself as a connoisseur of good course design and I am a competitive Blue level (950-ish rated) with mid-level power (accurate to 300' with max D of 360'). Since I have played a decent number of courses (150+ 18-hole, 90+ 9-hole as of late 2009), my hope is that players/explorers who have similar addiction tastes will find my ratings list helpful as they choose courses to play and explore.

I fully expect others with different tastes/philosophies to disagree with me…..and that's the fun of things here.

[harr0140]

hmmm

[tomjulio]

He knew going into it that he was not going to give Flip a 5.
I don't think either reviews can be called bogus, but still the reviews are filled with his explanation of his rubric more than info on the course.
I don't think I would thumbdown either, but I can't thumb them up because I won't read through it all, I have it memorized: I fancy myself as a connoisseur of good course design and I am a competitive Blue level (950-ish rated) with mid-level power (accurate to 300' with max D of 360'). Since I have played a decent number of courses (150+ 18-hole, 90+ 9-hole as of late 2009), my hope is that players/explorers who have similar addiction tastes will find my ratings list helpful as they choose courses to play and explore.

I fully expect others with different tastes/philosophies to disagree with me…..and that's the fun of things here.

ha! yeah right.."blah blah blah, look at me, I'm different.";)

I totally get the Leviathan design accolades, it deserves it. To me it still stands as one of my favorite and most challenging courses. It single handedly did me in at last years state championships. Hell, I know and love the guys that built it. BUT it is missing so many of the nuances of Flip, the overall package when it comes to disc golf. So for an overall rating to be higher than Flips, two courses I know intimately on many levels....Dave is nuts...and that's ok.

[jblough]

Well at least he's not some Highbridge or Idlewild fanatic who's looking to bring Flip down...

[Scoot_er]

If he would have rated just Flip it wouldn't have been a big deal!

I figured a 4 was coming from Dave out there and the only issue is him rating Leviathan a 5! With that said my MI buddies say Flip is a really "COOL" course but it isn't the one they mention when I ask for the best courses.

I haven't played either but I have heard Leviathan is a sweet course from a few guys and had never even heard of it.

[sgamerp]

I am glad to say that Flip City is only about an hour and twenty minutes from my hosue(without stops). I actually played it again on Saturday and although I did very poor, it's still one of the best places to play.

[NDABRUSH]

I've heard other people mention that they thought Leviathan was better than Flip, after playing both in the same weekend. I think it totally depends on what rubric you use to review. As long as he provides solid reasoning for his rating, I don't see any problem with it.

I am not surprised because Dave, it has always seemed to me, prefers heavily wooded courses. Flip being lightly wooded, really had to make up extra ground to be a 5. I don't throw as far as Dave, so Flip would not be easy at all to me. If it has decent elevation, it would prob overcome my Heavily wooded bias because I have played less courses than Dave and prob flatter terrain. So what you guys call moderate elevation might seem extreme to me and make a course have not far to go to reach that vaunted 5 disc status. Plus all of the art and that almost magical feeling that some of us get when playing a private course. Especially we golfers that have not played that many private courses. Got to hand it to Tom, he called this one.

[optidiscic]

As if a 4 is a bad rating. His review seems consistent with most reviews to me saying it's more easy than challenging and thus not very rewarding. I've heard this complaint multiple times before about flip. I'm still curious to play it but my expectations have been lowered. I like a difficult wooded challenge in my top rated courses

[SAxDrc]

I am glad to say that Flip City is only about an hour and twenty minutes from my hosue(without stops). I actually played it again on Saturday and although I did very poor, it's still one of the best places to play.

I live 15 minutes from Flip City and have never made it out there:doh:. I'm not sure I wanna go that far for only a 4-disc rated course...

If I were to die right now I'm sure I would go to disc golf hell.

[NDABRUSH]

He knew going into it that he was not going to give Flip a 5.
I don't think either reviews can be called bogus, but still the reviews are filled with his explanation of his rubric more than info on the course.
I don't think I would thumbdown either, but I can't thumb them up because I won't read through it all, I have it memorized: I fancy myself as a connoisseur of good course design and I am a competitive Blue level (950-ish rated) with mid-level power (accurate to 300' with max D of 360'). Since I have played a decent number of courses (150+ 18-hole, 90+ 9-hole as of late 2009), my hope is that players/explorers who have similar addiction tastes will find my ratings list helpful as they choose courses to play and explore.

I fully expect others with different tastes/philosophies to disagree with me…..and that's the fun of things here.

ROFL!!!!!! The only thing you didn't do was sneak in a little App beauty(Daves signature word). I might start rating App beauty on a scale of 1-10 in my reviews. I am going to Turner, Fritz and W.O Harrington in Texas tomorrow. I bet they won't have a lot App beauty, but you have to consider where you are playing as far as topography goes. It says the heat index will be 110, I hope Turner isn't very open.

[Rupert M]

I concur.

[scarpfish]

Read Dave's review. Green thumb.

[Terry C]

Ive played Flip and Leviathan. I gave Flip a 5, not because its perfect but because its damn close to perfect in every way and by far the best course Ive ever played. You do feel like your in a magical place at Flip with all its glory around every winding corner. Leviathan I gave a 4 because its an awesome course but a bit rough feeling. Not as smooth and broken in as flip. Not all the teepads are good quality and has some minor issues with signage and rough not being trimmed up very well. Overall both are great courses but to say Leviathan is better than Flip is just wrong in everyway. To each his own I suppose. Possibly he has a grudge against Flip or the fact that Flip plays as a par 3 and Dave dosent like an all par 3 course?:popcorn::confused:

[Mando]

Dave seems like a nice guy and I enjoy some of his posts, but I don't put any stock in his reviews. Being a righty myself, his overwhelming left-handed bias just confuses me.
Case in point; he gave Yadkin County Park a 5 when the next highest rating is a 4 and the avg is a 3 1/2. Go figure.

[Scoot_er]

ROFL!!!!!! The only thing you didn't do was sneak in a little App beauty(Daves signature word). I might start rating App beauty on a scale of 1-10 in my reviews. I am going to Turner, Fritz and W.O Harrington in Texas tomorrow. I bet they won't have a lot App beauty, but you have to consider where you are playing as far as topography goes. It says the heat index will be 110, I hope Turner isn't very open.

Why are you playing those courses? They aren't the best is DFW.......not even close although Turner was pretty cool.

[Scoot_er]

To each his own I suppose. Possibly he has a grudge against Flip or the fact that Flip plays as a par 3 and Dave dosent like an all par 3 course?:popcorn::confused:


The fact it plays as all Par 3s makes it almost impossible to reach #1 if you ask me!

I would say the #1 course needs to be an SSA of 58 (maybe 56)......although Blueberry plays a little easier than this.

[NDABRUSH]

Why are you playing those courses? They aren't the best is DFW.......not even close although Turner was pretty cool.

I feel cheap saying this, trying to get my course total up, almost to 50. Plus Fritz doesn't suck, does it? I guess I will find out. I plan on playing Lake Lewisville, The vet, Alex and Towne, Z boaz, North Park, Lester Beaver and any other upper rated 18 holers around DFW. Then make my way to East Metro, Cameron East and other highly rated courses that do not require driving all the way across Texas to play. I have already played Lester Coyote, H Meyers and Lindsey Gold. Those are the only highly rated Texas courses that I have played, although I loved the back 9 at U.T. Tyler. Tight and wooded.

[mashnut]

I have no issue with Dave's ratings of these two courses, he's made it very clear that design and challenge (along with wooded, natural beauty) are the things that are important to him. Just in terms of design, challenge, and variety, Leviathan is a better course. If you include atmosphere and maintenance as many (including me) do, Flip can get a higher rating, but if those things aren't important to you it's not that hard to see giving Leviathan a higher rating. He goes out of his way to justify why he rated those courses the way he did, the whining about Flip getting a 'low' rating is a bit petty imo.

Being a righty myself, his overwhelming left-handed bias just confuses me.


And this comment I just don't get. Dave never puts in a lefty bias in his reviews, in fact he makes it very clear that he likes a variety of holes that will test different skills and shots.

[dreadlock86]

I have no issue with Dave's ratings of these two courses, he's made it very clear that design and challenge (along with wooded, natural beauty) are the things that are important to him. Just in terms of design, challenge, and variety, Leviathan is a better course. If you include atmosphere and maintenance as many (including me) do, Flip can get a higher rating, but if those things aren't important to you it's not that hard to see giving Leviathan a higher rating. He goes out of his way to justify why he rated those courses the way he did, the whining about Flip getting a 'low' rating is a bit petty imo.



And this comment I just don't get. Dave never puts in a lefty bias in his reviews, in fact he makes it very clear that he likes a variety of holes that will test different skills and shots.

:thmbup:
exactly what i wanted to say


I am going to Turner, Fritz and W.O Harrington in Texas tomorrow.

I feel cheap saying this, trying to get my course total up, almost to 50. Plus Fritz doesn't suck, does it? I guess I will find out. I plan on playing Lake Lewisville, The vet, Alex and Towne, Z boaz, North Park, Lester Beaver and any other upper rated 18 holers around DFW. Then make my way to East Metro, Cameron East and other highly rated courses that do not require driving all the way across Texas to play. I have already played Lester Coyote, H Meyers and Lindsey Gold. Those are the only highly rated Texas courses that I have played, although I loved the back 9 at U.T. Tyler. Tight and wooded.


there is absolutely no reason in the world for an out-of-towner to go to W.O. Harrington. go to practically any other course in DFW for a better time. go to saddle hills in FW for an awesome 9 hole. better than fritz too.

[heelboycraig]

..with Dave's recent reviews of Flip, and Leviathan:

Leviathan:
http://www.dgcoursereview.com/reviews.php?id=1476&mode=rev#23320

Flip City:
http://www.dgcoursereview.com/reviews.php?id=468&mode=rev#23321

I am finally able to solidly state that he is out of his friggin' mind when it comes to ratings and probably not helping out the "other" 80% of disc golfers coming to this site for solid advice and course ratings.

Both these courses are my "home" courses, with Leviathan TRULY being my home course as I grew up across the street before it was a disc golf course. Flip a four and Leviathan a five? Please....

let's discuss shall we? :)
(we knew this was coming)

Is this what you were looking for?

http://www.neenah.k12.wi.us/cl/newsletter/S03155629.1/Becker_Violin.jpg

[TimSyl]

Flip is a better maintained course with a better flow and better "nuances"...Leviathin is more challenging.

Four is not a low rating.

[TimSyl]

Okay, I tried to defend Dave a little, but I see he gave Rogers Lakewood in Valpo a 5 and Flip a 4...he is out of his mind! He gave Idlewild a 3 1/2!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

[grodney]

The fact it plays as all Par 3s makes it almost impossible to reach #1 if you ask me!

This is correct. It is nearly impossible for a course to rate a 5 without any multi-shot holes. It would need a bunch of the best-designed 1-shot holes in the world, and then be perfect in every other way.

And even ignoring that, there's nothing crazy about Dave's reviews.

[DavidSauls]

Folks used to complain that his reviews had no detail, just letter grades using his own personal system. Now he reviews Flip City with a lot of details few people have mentioned, and explanations of his rating. Not the brief, worshipful review a lot of Flip fans provide. Folks don't like that, either.

Or is it really just the "4.0"?

[cydisc]

A course needs multi-throw holes to attain a 5 in my book (I haven't given any yet). After all, that is the essence of golf. All par-3 is like playing lawn darts.

[jdggna]

These threads should just be locked or compiled into one big thread. People have different views, get over it. Dave isn't trying to slam one course or another, and he's probably contributed more to the reviews than over 95% of the people on this site. He's always explained his position on his reviews, so quit complaining that he likes something different than you.

The fact it plays as all Par 3s makes it almost impossible to reach #1 if you ask me!

This ^

If a course plays as a 54 then its going to have a very hard time getting a 5 from me. If Flip does than I expect it would be working very hard to get better than a 4.5 from me when I get around to playing it. Step up to the challenge people! Is everybody so used to having things easy these days that they don't enjoy a good challenge to test their skills? In a "perfect" course I'd expect to see four or five par 4s and one or two par 5s.

[heelboycraig]

Both these courses are my "home" courses, with Leviathan TRULY being my home course as I grew up across the street before it was a disc golf course. Flip a four and Leviathan a five? Please....


At least you're honest about the HBB.

Let's take a quick, objective look at it.

Dave's played 265 courses and has no dog in the fight (no HBB to Flip, Idlewild, etc.) vs someone who's been a FC cheerleader since day 1.

Who do you think will give a more accurate and honest review?

[medicinalfunk]

seriously guys is there really 3 pages worth of crap to be said about this

[WorldsCoolestGuy]

Dave!!! There goin for the THROAT!!! I personally appreciate Dave's input on this site. I think with the amount of courses he's played, he's very knowledgeable.. He explains himself and his ratings. This whole site is all about personal opinions. What it comes down too, is a lot of fruit cups on this site don't fair well with disagreement. So on that note disagree'ers..... Go back to your communist ways...

[Greg Layton]

..with Dave's recent reviews of Flip, and Leviathan:

Leviathan:
http://www.dgcoursereview.com/reviews.php?id=1476&mode=rev#23320

Flip City:
http://www.dgcoursereview.com/reviews.php?id=468&mode=rev#23321

I am finally able to solidly state that he is out of his friggin' mind when it comes to ratings and probably not helping out the "other" 80% of disc golfers coming to this site for solid advice and course ratings.

Both these courses are my "home" courses, with Leviathan TRULY being my home course as I grew up across the street before it was a disc golf course. Flip a four and Leviathan a five? Please....

let's discuss shall we? :)
(we knew this was coming)

Tom,

I played Oshtemo with Dave on Saturday. Based on what I learned in 90 minutes of playing with him I'd bet he knows more about course design than the vast majority of folks on this site. He's left handed and has a very specific set of criteria he's looking for on a course that might not happen to mirror what other folks are looking for. You might choose to dislike his reviews based on his criteria and his review format, but I can assure you he isn't out of his mind.

[oddjob]

..with Dave's recent reviews of Flip, and Leviathan:

Leviathan:
http://www.dgcoursereview.com/reviews.php?id=1476&mode=rev#23320

Flip City:
http://www.dgcoursereview.com/reviews.php?id=468&mode=rev#23321

I am finally able to solidly state that he is out of his friggin' mind when it comes to ratings and probably not helping out the "other" 80% of disc golfers coming to this site for solid advice and course ratings.

Both these courses are my "home" courses, with Leviathan TRULY being my home course as I grew up across the street before it was a disc golf course. Flip a four and Leviathan a five? Please....

let's discuss shall we? :)
(we knew this was coming)


http://ladiesdotdotdot.files.wordpress.com/2009/08/dawson-crying.jpg

[TimSyl]

I understand everyone is entitled to their opinion. And, while Dave gives explanations for his ratings...the 4 for Flip is actually pretty accurate...but to give FC a 4, Valpo a 5 and Idlewild a 3.5 makes his opinions pretty invaluable to me.

[grodney]

invaluable

I don't think this word means what you think it means.

[Thumber]

I don't think this word means what you think it means.

Funniest comment in this whole dumb thread :wall:

[1978]

..with Dave's recent reviews of Flip, and Leviathan:

Leviathan:
http://www.dgcoursereview.com/reviews.php?id=1476&mode=rev#23320

Flip City:
http://www.dgcoursereview.com/reviews.php?id=468&mode=rev#23321

I am finally able to solidly state that he is out of his friggin' mind when it comes to ratings and probably not helping out the "other" 80% of disc golfers coming to this site for solid advice and course ratings.

Both these courses are my "home" courses, with Leviathan TRULY being my home course as I grew up across the street before it was a disc golf course. Flip a four and Leviathan a five? Please....

let's discuss shall we? :)
(we knew this was coming)

He is exactly inline with everyone elses rating. Whats the big deal. Never played the courses, but its not like he gave a 2.5star rated course a 5 he rated a 5* course a 5 and a 4* course a 4. Stop being so dramatic.

[ZMan44]

I don't mind Dave's review style...or his criteria. I played Flip City and Leviathon both within the last month. (haven't reviewed them yet, been pretty busy) I don't mind that he rated them the way that he did. My only problem is with some of his details for Flip. I would have given him a thumbs-up except for his comments about the "up-and-over holes" (5,10,17). The 3 holes do not require the same shot at all. Hole 5 plays with the pin to the left (RHBH hyzer). Hole 10 is straight and a midrange-S curve seems to be the play. Hole 17 has the pin right of the tee pad line (RHBH anhyzer). These are all very different flight paths especially when you account for the elevation changes. I found this information to be very misleading.

[Marty McFly]

Big gulps huh?

[Emoney]

I feel if u go to flip city and base your review mainly off ur skill as a player,u will miss out on what this course and other 5 disc courses are really about. Flip has a feel to it that leviathan misses and if ur so wrapped up in shot making,ur gonna miss it. I rated leviathan a 4.5 and flip a 5,they both are the bees knees but flip is just so unique and i felt like i was in that field of dreams movie when i was at flip. IF U BUILD IT,THEY WILL COME (and then rate u a 4 disc cause they wanna feel different from the masses):doh:

[heelboycraig]

Big gulps huh?

Well, see you later

http://michaelnorthrop.net/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/dumberBG.jpg

[Dave242]

I would have given him a thumbs-up except for his comments about the "up-and-over holes" (5,10,17). The 3 holes do not require the same shot at all. Hole 5 plays with the pin to the left (RHBH hyzer). Hole 10 is straight and a midrange-S curve seems to be the play. Hole 17 has the pin right of the tee pad line (RHBH anhyzer). These are all very different flight paths especially when you account for the elevation changes. I found this information to be very misleading.

Now we're talking - something actually about the course (and possibly a factual error on my part). Someone PM'ed me about the lack of multiple-path decision making required at Flip and I conceded that these holes indeed had good multiple paths with decisions on what gaps to take and flight paths to try. But, I did not change my review for accuracy since this nuance does not change the overall character of the course.

Here is my take on those holes. White dotted line is approximate line of play to the best gap I could determine (both my estimation as an ambidextrous player and by looking at the erosion patterns). Am I wrong that the basket on each is to the left of the line of play (allowing a RBHB slow speed fade to contribute to a good shot)? Let me know how far off I am please.

Hole 5: Basket is deeper than I could easily illustrate in a 2D drawing.
http://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=6064&stc=1&d=1279029701

Hole 10: Basket is deeper than I could easily illustrate in a 2D drawing.
http://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=6065&stc=1&d=1279029701

Hole 17: Same basic shot but with some S at the very outset.
http://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=6066&stc=1&d=1279030165

If I am wrong on my estimation of these holes, I will update my review. I talked to Bill about them and he basically agreed with my perspective. He told me that hole 10 will be changing as soon as he gets around to it (for safety reasons mainly - basket too close to tee area on 11).

[Mark R]

A five for Leviathan, with its 'really rough' rough and a four for Flip does seem completely absurd. However, one man-one vote should apply.

As for ski hill courses, they seem generally overrated here.

[heelboycraig]

What's comical about this is that Tom and the other FCers are complaining about a 4.0 rating. Anything rated 4 and above mean these are the best courses, the "must plays." From reading Dave's review, he had great things to say about the course, and also noted a couple flaws (which is the point of the review process after all). Now if he rated it a 1 or 2 ( a la Redneck Estrogen's anti-tree ratings), I can see the issue. But, we're talking about Tom whining over a 4. So, based on Dave's rating scale, an A- isn't good enough for the FCers.

[TimSyl]

I don't think this word means what you think it means.

good catch...knew what I meant...NOT valuable...

[jdggna]

I don't see a problem with "really rough roughs" on a course. If it isn't penalizing you for throwing it there in what sense is it the rough?

Dave: Agreed on 5 and 10 from the pictures (I've never played it myself). 17 looks similar, but I probably wouldn't call it the same shot. Its hard to for me to say from just a picture, so I'll concede that I can definitely see how it could be possible to come to that conclusion from actually being there.

[tomjulio]

I understand everyone is entitled to their opinion. And, while Dave gives explanations for his ratings...the 4 for Flip is actually pretty accurate...but to give FC a 4, Valpo a 5 and Idlewild a 3.5 makes his opinions pretty invaluable to me.

EGGS-ACTLY.

..his reviews are his, and his only...with little or no real world help for 80% of the rest of the DGers.

PS...PLEASE read "HUMOR" into all of this. I see there are too many cardboard nancys with none of that mentioned word chiming in already. ;)

[jkdisc]

you stirred it up now dave!

[Dave242]

I understand everyone is entitled to their opinion. And, while Dave gives explanations for his ratings...the 4 for Flip is actually pretty accurate...but to give FC a 4, Valpo a 5 and Idlewild a 3.5 makes his opinions pretty invaluable to me.

Dave seems like a nice guy and I enjoy some of his posts, but I don't put any stock in his reviews. Being a righty myself, his overwhelming left-handed bias just confuses me.
Case in point; he gave Yadkin County Park a 5 when the next highest rating is a 4 and the avg is a 3 1/2. Go figure.

In my review of Winter Park, I said that it is now my #1 course (and there is room for improvement.....for my tastes at least). That will be forcing me to make some adjustments to my rating scale......and Rogers Lakewood (Valpo) & Yadkin will almost certainly be the first 2 victims to loose their 5.0 disc rating.

Not that anyone necessarily cares too much, but I rated both of those at a 96 which I call an A+ (= 5.0 discs)......since early on I was getting too few A+'s when I was around 100 courses played. I call an 86 a B (3.0 discs) and a 76 a C. So, I am almost certain these two courses will be going to an A (=4.5 discs).

I love both of those courses an absolute ton and will defend them to the hilt as to why they are tied for #7 on my list of 285 courses played. Main knock on Yadlkinville is the natural tees and lame-o signage/navigation. Neither of those 2 issues factor into my ratings (but I 100% see why those do mean a ton to a lot of people).

TimSyl - glad to be an invaluable service to you. :)
Mando - not sure where you get that I have an overwhelming lefty bias. My favorite and most gratifying shot is a LHBH anny! See this post (http://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?p=408582&post408582) about my favorite shot on my favorite hole at Flip City (that I made just yesterday (before you posted what you did)

[tomjulio]

What's comical about this is that Tom and the other FCers are complaining about a 4.0 rating. Anything rated 4 and above mean these are the best courses, the "must plays." From reading Dave's review, he had great things to say about the course, and also noted a couple flaws (which is the point of the review process after all). Now if he rated it a 1 or 2 ( a la Redneck Estrogen's anti-tree ratings), I can see the issue. But, we're talking about Tom whining over a 4. So, based on Dave's rating scale, an A- isn't good enough for the FCers.

BZZZZZZZZZZ... wrong answer.

It isn't about Flip getting a four. It deserves a four from anyone if that's what they want to give it. BUT Valpo a 5 and then Leviathan a 5? Out of his frickin' mind. Let's break it down between my two fave courses: Leviathan vs Flip in every category and tell me how you get Leviathan over Flip. Ok lets go...

CHALLENGE: Leviathan. Without a doubt one of the toughest courses I know of.

MAINTENANCE: Flip. Second to none

RISK REWARD. TIE, with the edge going to Flips basket placements on many slopes

SIGNAGE: Flip. Great new tee number signs and a map at the beginning of the course. Leviathan has neither.

TEE PADS: Flip. Consistent oblong cement tees to very inconsistent shape ones at Leviathan

BEAUTY: Flip. Stand on hole 7 and tell me you have seen a prettier hole...anywhere.

CAMPING ONSITE: Flip. Leviathan...none.

NUANCES: Flip, OVERWHELMINGLY

WINNER....FLIP CITY


soooo...Dave in effect should state, "Hey, I like challenging courses and that's all I am rating these courses on. I will neglect all other aspects that make for a whole package." Yeap, that's what he should say.

...and Valpo a 5? Good course but some of the lamest and inconsistent tees ever. Same with his rating Winter Park a 5. NO tees there. Loose gravel.

OUT-OF-HIS-MIND!

[Dave242]

I don't see a problem with "really rough roughs" on a course. If it isn't penalizing you for throwing it there in what sense is it the rough?

Dave: Agreed on 5 and 10 from the pictures (I've never played it myself). 17 looks similar, but I probably wouldn't call it the same shot. Its hard to for me to say from just a picture, so I'll concede that I can definitely see how it could be possible to come to that conclusion from actually being there.

Agreed on your perspective on "really rough roughs". Leviathan does not have disc-loosing rough nearly like plenty of other courses do (including the other Mason County parks and Valpo).

I chose my words carefully in my review when I said "essentially" the same shot. To me, you can throw all three holes and get into easy putting range with the same disc, just released on slightly different angles. From those who have played Flip - agree or disagree. I am wide open to being wrong on my perspective on these holes.

[zenbot]

That's just, like, your opinion, man.

[oddjob]

BZZZZZZZZZZ... wrong answer.

It isn't about Flip getting a four. It deserves a four from anyone if that's what they want to give it. BUT Valpo a 5 and then Leviathan a 5? Out of his frickin' mind. Let's break it down between my two fave courses: Leviathan vs Flip in every category and tell me how you get Leviathan over Flip. Ok lets go...

CHALLENGE: Leviathan. Without a doubt one of the toughest courses I know of.

MAINTENANCE: Flip. Second to none

RISK REWARD. TIE, with the edge going to Flips basket placements on many slopes

SIGNAGE: Flip. Great new tee number signs and a map at the beginning of the course. Leviathan has neither.

TEE PADS: Flip. Consistent oblong cement tees to very inconsistent shape ones at Leviathan

BEAUTY: Flip. Stand on hole 7 and tell me you have seen a prettier hole...anywhere.

CAMPING ONSITE: Flip. Leviathan...none.

NUANCES: Flip, OVERWHELMINGLY

WINNER....FLIP CITY


soooo...Dave in effect should state, "Hey, I like challenging courses and that's all I am rating these courses on. I will neglect all other aspects that make for a whole package." Yeap, that's what he should say.

...and Valpo a 5? Good course but some of the lamest and inconsistent tees ever. Same with his rating Winter Park a 5. NO tees there. Loose gravel.

OUT-OF-HIS-MIND!

http://www.nytimes.com/images/blogs/laughlines/thehugemanatee.jpg

[juanbond]

I never get hung up on how people review. With the decent user base here, I appreciate that everyone has a different way of rating courses. It all helps to contribute to the well-roundedness of the ratings here.

[cydisc]

You'd think Dave killed someone's dog.

[heelboycraig]

BZZZZZZZZZZ... wrong answer.

It isn't about Flip getting a four. It deserves a four from anyone if that's what they want to give it. BUT Valpo a 5 and then Leviathan a 5? Out of his frickin' mind. Let's break it down between my two fave courses: Leviathan vs Flip in every category and tell me how you get Leviathan over Flip. Ok lets go...

CHALLENGE: Leviathan. Without a doubt one of the toughest courses I know of.

MAINTENANCE: Flip. Second to none

RISK REWARD. TIE, with the edge going to Flips basket placements on many slopes

SIGNAGE: Flip. Great new tee number signs and a map at the beginning of the course. Leviathan has neither.

TEE PADS: Flip. Consistent oblong cement tees to very inconsistent shape ones at Leviathan

BEAUTY: Flip. Stand on hole 7 and tell me you have seen a prettier hole...anywhere.

CAMPING ONSITE: Flip. Leviathan...none.

NUANCES: Flip, OVERWHELMINGLY

WINNER....FLIP CITY


soooo...Dave in effect should state, "Hey, I like challenging courses and that's all I am rating these courses on. I will neglect all other aspects that make for a whole package." Yeap, that's what he should say.

...and Valpo a 5? Good course but some of the lamest and inconsistent tees ever. Same with his rating Winter Park a 5. NO tees there. Loose gravel.

OUT-OF-HIS-MIND!

You know what, I guess I was wrong. You've clear stated fact instead of opinion/preference/subjective matters. Every else who has slightly different view points will now also be considered wrong as well.

[tomjulio]

You know what, I guess I was wrong. You've clear stated fact instead of opinion/preference/subjective matters. Every else who has slightly different view points will now also be considered wrong as well.

Did you laugh at all when they shot Ole' Yeller?

...lighten up my friend.

[DavidSauls]

seriously guys is there really 3 pages worth of crap to be said about this

No. I've got 13 in the pool.

[zenbot]

I think Dave gets a raw deal around here.


*edit*

Then again, I've never played anything that he's reviewed. Maybe he is cuckoo.

[heelboycraig]

You know what, I guess I was wrong. You've clear stated fact instead of opinion/preference/subjective matters. Every else who has slightly different view points will now also be considered wrong as well.

5 minute rule:

Let me see if I has this straight. 2 courses you rated as 4s, he gave them both 5s. A course you rated a 5, he rated a 4. So the courses you thought were very good he thought were great, and the course you thought was great, he slammed it as only very good.

[Dave242]

I think Dave gets a raw deal around here.

Yeah - I agree......I try hard to talk about courses and understand real stuff about holes and the intent of hole design (actual disc golf stuff), and almost no one wants to join in.

That deserves some :thmbdown: :thmbdown: :thmbdown: :thmbdown: :thmbdown:

[tomjulio]

Yeah - I agree......I try hard to talk about courses and understand real stuff about holes and the intent of hole design (actual disc golf stuff), and almost no one wants to join in.

That deserves some :thmbdown: :thmbdown: :thmbdown: :thmbdown: :thmbdown:

yes yes and YES! With that we all should say BRAVO! agreed...and that's why we need a new site called www.DiscGolfCourseDesignAndChallengeReview.com

BUT...you leave out rating a course based on ALL the tangibles and intangibles in which a review/rating would help the other 80%'s that come to this site. So in effect who are you helping besides those like yourself? seeeeeeeeeeeee?

Maybe I should write reviews based only on ace runs, which I like. I could clearly state that too in my disclaimer. My ratings would be all over the place in comparison to the majority of others and help only those with ace runs in mind. seeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee?

....I like fudge.

[jdggna]

Dang...went to check how you thought some courses around here compared to how I feel as was blown away...

Dave, how can you have not played any Iowa courses and not have any on your wishlist???

[oddjob]

I think not having to go to Iowa is on many people's wish list.

J/K...




...but seriously.

[Greg Layton]

I think not having to go to Iowa is on many people's wish list.

J/K...




...but seriously.

You've obviously never played any courses in Iowa.

[jdggna]

Tom, I'm not sure how much better he could do reviews...He actually rates individual aspects of the course, then uses these to determine the total rating. This is far more consistent over time and many courses than just arbitrarily picking a final value based on how you felt that day. All you have to do is look at his profile and you'll see it broken down very well into how he rates them. If you take the time to look into his reviews they're probably some of the most helpful on the site.

I think not having to go to Iowa is on many people's wish list.

J/K...

...but seriously.

Greg knows what's up.

[zenbot]

yes yes and YES! With that we all should say BRAVO! agreed...and that's why we need a new site called www.DiscGolfCourseDesignAndChallengeReview.com

BUT...you leave out rating a course based on ALL the tangibles and intangibles in which a review/rating would help the other 80%'s that come to this site. So in effect who are you helping besides those like yourself? seeeeeeeeeeeee?

Maybe I should write reviews based only on ace runs, which I like. I could clearly state that too in my disclaimer. My ratings would be all over the place in comparison to the majority of others and help only those with ace runs in mind. seeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee?

....I like fudge.
Firefox can't find the server at www.discgolfcoursedesignandchallengereview.com.

[magictenor1]

yes yes and YES! With that we all should say BRAVO! agreed...and that's why we need a new site called www.DiscGolfCourseDesignAndChallengeReview.com

BUT...you leave out rating a course based on ALL the tangibles and intangibles in which a review/rating would help the other 80%'s that come to this site. So in effect who are you helping besides those like yourself? seeeeeeeeeeeee?

Maybe I should write reviews based only on ace runs, which I like. I could clearly state that too in my disclaimer. My ratings would be all over the place in comparison to the majority of others and help only those with ace runs in mind. seeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee?

....I like fudge. Maybe someone should write for the other 20%. I see ratings on this site all the time that do not agree with my opinion. The rating is just a personal opinion and should be secondary to the information given. Dave is giving you info to help you decide if you might like a course. Just because you think Flip is the most beautiful course doesn't mean that everyone will see it that way. I hope to play it for myself one day to see how I feel about it.

[grodney]

Firefox can't find the server at www.discgolfcoursedesignandchallengereview.com.

You need to add www.flipcitysbutt.com (ip=5.5.5.5) to your DNS.

[GoodDriveBadPutt]

I know one heavily wooded course that is not liked... to the extreme!!!

Summit (http://www.dgcoursereview.com/reviews.php?id=824&mode=rev)


P.S. Iowa courses? Only played one and it was fantastic:

http://www.dgcoursereview.com/course.php?id=1204

[medicinalfunk]

I think not having to go to Iowa is on many people's wish list.

J/K...




...but seriously.
oh ye of little faith

[prerube]

seriously guys is there really 3 pages worth of crap to be said about this

no there is 8 :)

[oddjob]

You've obviously never played any courses in Iowa.

No, but I do own Field of Dreams and Pro Worlds 2004 which pretty much makes be an expert on the subject.

[magictenor1]

no there is 8 :) Is that the hole on 8?

[prerube]

Tom, I'm not sure how much better he could do reviews...He actually rates individual aspects of the course, then uses these to determine the total rating. This is far more consistent over time and many courses than just arbitrarily picking a final value based on how you felt that day. All you have to do is look at his profile and you'll see it broken down very well into how he rates them. If you take the time to look into his reviews they're probably some of the most helpful on the site.

Greg knows what's up.

I don't find it helpful when half the review talks about himself and how the rubric works, I just want to read about the course. Once I counted how many words Dave used that were word for word with his other reviews and it was around 150. I like to see:

- Challenging for all level
- Appalachian Beauty
- points about what was great about the course without fluff.

However I think his ratings are his valid opinion and are therefore legit. If he only wrote what he did and somehow did not give a disc rating I do not think anyone would have a major issue, so therefore I can not thumb it down.

[tallpaul]

One of the most interesting things about this entire thing, is the long term ramifications of this. Things are going as I saw they would; and will continue to....i.e. Right now, some of the most hard core reviewers and courses played guys are located in the midwest. Some of the courses in the top ten are also in the midwest. This means; that when some of these reviewers get down to nuts and bolts; some of these courses are going to get four ratings (for various reasons; perhaps the biggest of which, is personal preference). It is bound to happen. You will have noticed that quite a number of persons from here (both new and old), have made the trip to either High Bridge and/or to the Flip grouping.... this year.

Then, west coast courses; which seem to be the least seen/played group on this site at the present; will rise to the top (as has been happening in the past year). This will then encourage persons who may not otherwise have been planning to make the trip west; to go, and play those top courses. At that point, those will be reviewed more; and some reviewers will also give them 4 ratings.

At that point, Optidisc will become happy; because some of the east coast courses that are not ranked as highly as he believes they should (and from what I've seen; so do I); will then fall in place with the others in the top @50.

From day one; I understood that this site would take a few years to get to the point where overall course ratings would get zeroed in. In another couple of years, the top 50/100 will all be zeroed in pretty well (though it will take a few more years after that, for this to get completely solidified).

At that point, there will be a whole new class of top courses based on the most modern design (see Nevin Park in Charlotte; and probably a bunch of the courses in the New England area that I have not seen yet), that will come and take the top positions.

Course design is ever changing. What was considered a top flight course, even five years ago, quickly falls into the "old school" designation. Flip is kind of in this category. By modern toughness standards, Flip is a course to score well on; compared to many others; Leviathan being on of them. I try to give course with great "amenities" their due respect. However, top advanced, and gold level players, will be after more challenge. And, there are more and more of these skilled players coming on the scene every day. (me sheds a tear for the old days when we all played with cobras :))

It is out of enormous, and due, respect to Bill at Flip; that many continue to give his course a five rating. Anyone reading this; if you have not already figured it out; YOU SHOULD BE AWARE THAT THE OVERALL ENJOYMENT FACTOR AT FLIP IS OUT OF THIS WORLD, and will be hard to beat.

There will come a time (and we will all be pining for "the old days" then) when it is the cost of playing a course that will allow you to play a secluded layout like Flip. At the present, Bill is the perfect host and allows us all to play his course for little cost. Get there, while the getting is good; and enjoy yourselves immensely. If a bit more challenge is up your alley, play Leviathan. 'Nough said.

[jongoff09]

If he only wrote what he did and somehow did not give a disc rating I do not think anyone would have a major issue, so therefore I can not thumb it down.

Best level-minded post yet.

[Dave242]

^^^^^ Excellent points there Nostradamus.....I mean tallpaul. Very insightful and thought provoking. I think the progression of things you bring up will most likely happen almost exactly like you say. Good stuff!

[ZMan44]

Sorry Dave, but you must have played some different pin locations than we played on June 21st. Your flight maps for 10 and 17 are way off from the positions we played. 10 went over the mound at the top and slightly right. 17 had no hyzer at all. FWIW these may have changed but I didn't see any pin positions in the directions of the arrows you showed.

[Dave242]

BUT...you leave out rating a course based on ALL the tangibles and intangibles in which a review/rating would help the other 80%'s that come to this site. So in effect who are you helping besides those like yourself? seeeeeeeeeeeee?

I do seeeeeeeeeeeeee. :). In fact, you hit on one of the exact main reasons I originally decided to do what I do here.....and have kept on doing it. The 80% of reviewers can and do write material appropriate and helpful for the 80% of readers. You and plenty of others do a splendid job at that.

What I intentionally try to do is write/rate in a way that will hopefully be useful to a portion of the 20%. I know it seems self-absorbed to many that I paste the same thing about my rubric/metrics/rationale in the "Other Thoughts:" section of every stinking review, but I do that so that hopefully like-minded folks might be able to pick out how/why my reviews of every course I have played might be useful to them as one small (but hopefully sometimes significant) data-point they consider (and then ignore my "Other Toughts:" from there on out). I do what I do with the full realization that what I do makes me forgo a little bling that could go under my name here.

Maybe I should write reviews based only on ace runs, which I like. I could clearly state that too in my disclaimer. My ratings would be all over the place in comparison to the majority of others and help only those with ace runs in mind. seeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee?

I do seeeeeeeeeeeeeeee......and you make a perfect analogy/parallel to what I am attempting to do in trying to add some value to a portion of the 20%: If you were to do this and be clear/consistent about what you were doing, I can guarantee you that Cubby would be going to your reviews/ratings first thing if he and his video camera were visiting an area you had played. You would take tons of :thmbdown:'s, but you would be living out the Golden Rule.....at least for Cubby (your intended reader).

Tom, although I know that you disagree with me on some levels, I have known even before your first post on this thread that you are doing this all in a good-natured and fun manner. It is possible that others read what you say as mean-spirited, but be assured that I do not. I have long thought you are one of the funniest and good natured folks here.....and eventually/hopefully we will get a round in together (I am in Milwaukee/Pewaukee right now.)

[NothinButChing]

Big gulps huh?

sweet see ya later

[prerube]

Basically I like pros in pros column and cons in the cons. I don't like to have to read the whole review to pick out the cons to see why you gave it what you did.
Dave242 knows I disagree with his style and some of his methods (changing unpopular ratings, review courses played 5 years ago, reviewing courses when the baskets have been removed), but I respect that he is trying to come up with a rubric to fairly judge the courses and he stuck with it even when it was not well received.
Dave may soon go from famous poor reviewer to the sites second diamond reviewer!

[deBebbler]

The fact it plays as all Par 3s makes it almost impossible to reach #1 if you ask me!

I would say the #1 course needs to be an SSA of 58 (maybe 56)......although Blueberry plays a little easier than this.

Hole 2A at Flip may be posted as Par 3, but it sure doesn't play that way.

Nothing against Dave242, for I have read and enjoyed many of his reviews, but given the choice, I would rather read Shogun.

[Dave242]

Basically I like pros in pros column and cons in the cons. I don't like to have to read the whole review to pick out the cons to see why you gave it what you did.

You should be the biggest fan of my "reviews" then. You know exactly the 5 criteria I grade on, can zoom right to those and see if I grade it awesome (grade in the A's), average (grade in the C's) or poor (grade in the D's). No need to waste any time reading anything more than quickly zooming in on 5 letter grades. :confused:

I believe my review of Idlewild is the only one of my reviews that is open to this criticism. The reason I did that was that I copy-pasted a post I had written about Idlewild 6 months before the very first review was entered for that course.

[jhgonzo]

You know exactly the 5 criteria I grade on, can zoom right to those and see if I grade it awesome (grade in the A's), average (grade in the C's) or poor (grade in the D's). No need to waste any time reading anything more than quickly zooming in on 5 letter grades.

I'm a fan of your reviews, and this is exactly how I read them. :thmbup:

Edit: Any plans to adjust your grading scale to include "E for effort"? :p

[Countchunkula]

I think dave242's reviews are helpful. At this point I have read enough of them (and he has played enough courses in my area) that I can use his reviews as a baseline to compare courses I haven't played with ones I am familiar with. His earlier reviews with just letter grades and no supporting blurb I didn't like as much, but everything he has done recently has been most informative. I also appreciate how fair he is in rating courses objectively and not taking their reputation into consideration.

[Scoot_er]

seriously guys is there really 3 pages worth of crap to be said about this

Looks like there is WAY more room! I am currently on page 4 and will be to the end in 15 minutes. :wall:

[prerube]

You should be the biggest fan of my "reviews" then. You know exactly the 5 criteria I grade on, can zoom right to those and see if I grade it awesome (grade in the A's), average (grade in the C's) or poor (grade in the D's). No need to waste any time reading anything more than quickly zooming in on 5 letter grades. :confused:

I believe my review of Idlewild is the only one of my reviews that is open to this criticism. The reason I did that was that I copy-pasted a post I had written about Idlewild 6 months before the very first review was entered for that course.

I like a list of pros and a list of cons, not pros mixed with cons. but that is my opinion, not a rule.

[Cradical]

hmmm i was way too lazy to read the whole review. I just wanted to say, why does this not make sense? he gave his reasons for grading both of them the way he did. I'm sort of the same way, I like Kaposia way better than Bryant lake and probably more than Blue Ribbon pines, but that's because I don't care about signs and manicure, I care about the skill it takes to throw well and the variety of shots needed. It'd be messed up to give courses better reviews just because they were other peoples favorites.

[Scoot_er]

Hole 2A at Flip may be posted as Par 3, but it sure doesn't play that way.

Nothing against Dave242, for I have read and enjoyed many of his reviews, but given the choice, I would rather read Shogun.

One hole isn't even close to enough!

I assume the course record out there is 44-40 which makes it a FUN course but not #1........at least based on what I look for.

[Scoot_er]

Also why does Tomjulio think he knows everything when he has only been playing 2 years????

With that said I totally understand why he would like Flip and its par 3 setup.

[prerube]

Here comes the DGR thinking, no one can post past this point unless they have played for 5 years

[Apothecary]

scoot didnt take his midol today. leave him alone.

[optidiscic]

I'm with scooter on this one. I love ace runs but they need to be balanced with equal number of legit par 5s Its hard to get excited over a simple course no matter how fun and well maintained. Put the kool aid down

[Scoot_er]

Here comes the DGR thinking, no one can post past this point unless they have played for 5 years

I would prefer someone who claims to know a lot about reviewing to have more than 2 years experience.......

How many states has he played in? What does he base Flip being a 5 off of?

No DGR thinking I just prefer to see 5's from people who have been playing long enough to develop solid skills along with a variety of courses and from what I see he isn't the most trusted around.

[prerube]

I would prefer someone who claims to know a lot about reviewing to have more than 2 years experience.......

How many states has he played in? What does he base Flip being a 5 off of?

No DGR thinking I just prefer to see 5's from people who have been playing long enough to develop solid skills along with a variety of courses and from what I see he isn't the most trusted around.

He has played 44 courses in 4 states. He is a gold level trusted reviewer.

[Scoot_er]

He has played 44 courses in 4 states. He is a gold level trusted reviewer.

Personal preference, I don't care about the reviewer stats.........I wouldn't be trusted because I would rate courses like Dave.


Also he hasn't played any AWESOME courses out of the 44 from what I can tell and until he plays some true championship courses him giving a 5 means little to me.

[prerube]

you would ignore the Pros and Cons and just write a 600 word essay where 200 words explain your level of skill are and how you write reviews?

[Scoot_er]

you would ignore the Pros and Cons and just write a 600 word essay where 200 words explain your level of skill are and how you write reviews?

No but I would rate it based on challenge and aesthetics with challenge and solid design being 70-80% of my rating......Aesthetics make up the other 20-30%

I am not going to rate an easy course anything more than a 3.5-4.

Also if you notice I have only rated harder courses and plan to only rate these in the future since it seems my ratings of easy courses would bring me some :thmbdown: .

[prerube]

I think challenge and aesthetics are the 2 main aspects. I also look at navigation and flow, which I know Dave doesn't think should be in the reviews.

I just read 2 of your reviews and together they only have 1 thumbs down. I see which you are referring to, bear creek. people tore your review up.

[Scoot_er]

I think challenge and aesthetics are the 2 main aspects. I also look at navigation and flow, which I know Dave doesn't think should be in the reviews.

That goes a long with the design part,

I play with one of the top designers around quite often and even during our tournaments we are constantly talking about the course and what is good along with what needs to be changed,

[Jukeshoe]

Okay, I tried to defend Dave a little, but I see he gave Rogers Lakewood in Valpo a 5 and Flip a 4...he is out of his mind! He gave Idlewild a 3 1/2!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

I concur with this statement. Rogers Lakewood is an OUTSTANDING course, but there is no way in hell it is a full disc better than Flip City. Not ever, no way, no how.

[sgamerp]

Have you ever played Flip City? I don't really consider it "easy"

[Scoot_er]

Have you ever played Flip City? I don't really consider it "easy"

No I haven't but for a Gold level player it seems pretty easy from what I have heard.

Nate said something about the record being -13 which means it is fairly easy.

[skurf]

What?! Dave242 liked some course more than some other course!?!! You grab the torches, I got the pitchforks!

[Scoot_er]

What?! Dave242 liked some course more than some other course!?!! You grab the torches, I got the pitchforks!

Don't forget your Katana!

[tomjulio]

Tom, although I know that you disagree with me on some levels, I have known even before your first post on this thread that you are doing this all in a good-natured and fun manner. It is possible that others read what you say as mean-spirited, but be assured that I do not. I have long thought you are one of the funniest and good natured folks here.....and eventually/hopefully we will get a round in together (I am in Milwaukee/Pewaukee right now.)

Dave...(I pause and weep in happiness)...this is EXACTLY why I started this thread and KNEW, just knew, that you would get it. YOU my friend are the type of person I want to play disc golf with! :)

a round between us is WAY overdue.

....with that in mind..you're still out of your frickin' gourd with an overall rating of Leviathan at 5 and Flip at 4! ;)

[zenbot]

I'm having a hard time believing that a bunch of people from different backgrounds, skill levels and mental capacities can't all come to exact agreement on something so subjective especially considering that they haven't all been exposed to the exact same courses and conditions.

That's just crazy. As crazy as my giant run-on sentence.

[jkdisc]

dave242, dave242, what have you done? look at this! my goodness what have you done?!

[tomjulio]

Also why does Tomjulio think he knows everything when he has only been playing 2 years????

With that said I totally understand why he would like Flip and its par 3 setup.

Now see, it's personal slams like that makes some people come off as douche-ay (is that a word).
just saying.


..I will be the very first in line to admit my ignorance and list everything I don't know, which by the way is 100000000000x's more than I do know.

[tomjulio]

Personal preference, I don't care about the reviewer stats.........I wouldn't be trusted because I would rate courses like Dave.


Also he hasn't played any AWESOME courses out of the 44 from what I can tell and until he plays some true championship courses him giving a 5 means little to me.

Scoot, we all can't be like you...godlike I mean.

Let's see, 1000 rated, 10+ years, lives in a city called "Ace"...I'm thinking you represent maybe .05% of the people who might actually find reviews helpful at all. You seem jaded and already bent on your opinions...SOOOOO, who should reviews be aimed at again?

[Terry C]

I see a lot of trashing Flip because its all par 3's. There are several holes at Flip that should be par 4 or 5's. My best score at Flip of the ten or so times Ive played it was +5 and I was very happy with that. Flip is definitely not an easy course, and its not overbaringly hard either which makes it fun and exciting to play for good players as well as newer players. I remember Bill from Flip telling me that Barry Schultz, Mark Ellis, Dave Feldberg and Avery Jenkins end up around -10 to -15 when they drop by, but those scores are definitely not typical. You need atleast a 450-500 foot drive and mad putting skills to get that kind of score at Flip. (can you imagine the best pros just showing up at your house!!)

[harr0140]

I feel cheap saying this, trying to get my course total up, almost to 50. Plus Fritz doesn't suck, does it? I guess I will find out. I plan on playing Lake Lewisville, The vet, Alex and Towne, Z boaz, North Park, Lester Beaver and any other upper rated 18 holers around DFW. Then make my way to East Metro, Cameron East and other highly rated courses that do not require driving all the way across Texas to play. I have already played Lester Coyote, H Meyers and Lindsey Gold. Those are the only highly rated Texas courses that I have played, although I loved the back 9 at U.T. Tyler. Tight and wooded.



Nothing wrong with bagging new courses . . . I have made a career out of it . . . oh wait do I need to get paid to call it a career?

[Scoot_er]

Now see, it's personal slams like that makes some people come of as douche-ay (is that a word).
just saying.


..I will be the very first in line to admit my ignorance and list everything I don't know, which by the way is 100000000000x's more than I do know.

Starting a thread because your course didn't get a 5 is also douchey........especially when act as if you are all knowing when it comes to rating courses.

If you had played 20 courses that are considered to be the best in the country I wouldn't give you crap but you have played mostly average courses and that is what you base your 5 rating for Flip on.

For someone playing only 2 years Flip probably does rate higher than a par 60 course but that doesn't give you the right to tell someone they are wrong when they rate Flip a 4.

If I ever go back to MI (trying not to) and play Flip I am not expecting to play a 5 and will likely rate it a 4 just like Dave. The course just isn't as good as Manor, Ingleside, and Centrallia when it comes to design even though I'm sure it is much prettier.

[Scoot_er]

Scoot, we all can't be like you...godlike I mean.

Let's see, 1000 rated, 10+ years, lives in a city called "Ace"...I'm thinking you represent maybe .05% of the people who might actually find reviews helpful at all. You seem jaded and already bent on your opinions...SOOOOO, who should reviews be aimed at again?

I write reviews based on what I feel is important and that doesn't mean it will only help 1000 rated players as there are quite a few people on the site who would like to see this perspective when looking at reviews.

Also I really do live in Ace, Tx.....70 miles from a course.

[Scoot_er]

I see a lot of trashing Flip because its all par 3's. There are several holes at Flip that should be par 4 or 5's. My best score at Flip of the ten or so times Ive played it was +5 and I was very happy with that. Flip is definitely not an easy course, and its not overbaringly hard either which makes it fun and exciting to play for good players as well as newer players. I remember Bill from Flip telling me that Barry Schultz, Mark Ellis, Dave Feldberg and Avery Jenkins end up around -10 to -15 when they drop by, but those scores are definitely not typical. You need atleast a 450-500 foot drive and mad putting skills to get that kind of score at Flip. (can you imagine the best pros just showing up at your house!!)


So the course is pretty easy for a gold level or Pro player......

The courses I enjoy and rate the highest are the ones Davery would shoot 56-60 on.

[Dave242]

I said I would defend Rogers Lakewood/Valpo to the hilt, so I will (and remember, I am pretty sure I will be adjusting my rating for Valpo to 4.5 discs):

1) Holes with good risk/reward. Fair, but harsh punishment for bad decisions or execution.
Flip = B
Valpo = A
Valpo has much more demanding shots and much more punishment on your score for not executing.

2) Holes that have rewarding birdie opportunities for me. I throw 300' accurately, 360' max.
Flip = B-
Valpo = A+
Valpo fits my length a perfectly as any course I have played. Very rewarding to score well here. Honestly, my B- for Flip was generous (with only about 3 of 24 holes yeilding rewarding birdies to someone of my skill and D). This is by far the biggest differentiator of what Valpo does incredibly well as far as luring me back to itself over and over and over again.

3) More wooded than open - lots of variety of shots required caused by hole shape and topography.
Flip = B+
Valpo = A+
Again, Valpo has lots of "tunnel" shots that force you into having to throw the line the designer wants you to throw. Flip does not do this on the vast majority of holes.

4) Natural beauty (Appalachian beauty preferred) and seclusion.
Flip = A-
Valpo = A
I think I missed-fired here....I would say they are a wash at best (Flip might even be incrementally better) as far what they do for me in "recharging my batteries". Remember, Valpo has a lake and a pond going for it and none of the erosion/bare dirt of Flip.

5) Bonus points for multi-throw holes with defined landing zones, good risk/reward and multiple options to play them.
Flip = C
Valpo = C
A wash - two 2-throw holes each (for someone of my D). The perfect challenge of 2A for me is offset by the perfect fun of the huge downhill throw off the sledding hill at Valpo.

Of course, you mileage may vary with what you prefer in a course. :hfive:

[tomjulio]

Starting a thread because your course didn't get a 5 is also douchey........especially when act as if you are all knowing when it comes to rating courses.


...misinterpreting the initial post as anything other as humorous fodder for the likes of disc golfers that GET IT then getting personal is being a douche. Period. I could go on and on about how you're only 21 years old and I was banging hot chicks well before the better part of you dripped down the leg of your momma and into her shoes.

If I ever go back to MI (trying not to) and play Flip I am not expecting to play a 5 and will likely rate it a 4 just like Dave. The course just isn't as good as Manor, Ingleside, and Centrallia when it comes to design even though I'm sure it is much prettier.

...good WE don't want you there. You would probably try to rewrite our text books with giberish about how it was Davy Crocket at the Alamo who threw the first TeeBird at those dirty stinkin' Mexicans trying to cross the border in a sneak attack during the Civil War in 1941.

[zenbot]

Does somebody come here to find the most beautiful disc golf course or the most challenging disc golf course?

The answer is both. If I'm vacationing with the family I may have different wants than if I'm planning a roadtrip with hardcore DG buddies.

[optidiscic]

I still wanna play flip as I enjoy fun low par courses especially after getting killed by a champ course and it seems flip might be the funnest course out there I look for a course that penaalizes my errors and rewards my execution. Only these courses r worthy of high scores IMO I quizically tilted my head doggy style at daves 5 rating of less than epic schenley in Pitt. Then I rethought it. Tight off the tees punishing woods attainable birdies So bogeys and birdies r always possible. Beautiful natural scenery. Risk reward even if much of it is derived from an access road. A few multi shot holes sprinkled in. I thought the course had flaws but using daves method it made sense. I value what Dave values and I trust him even if I might include safety aesthetics and intangibles more than him. Addiction requires a desire to gain satisfaction u don't really get that thrill from a forgiving albeit fun course. I'd rather score a date with a supermodel than the girl next door. Sentimental thoughts mean nothing to me. I want conquest baby. Lol

[Scoot_er]

...misinterpreting the initial post as anything other as humorous fodder for the likes of disc golfers that GET IT then getting personal is being a douche. Period. I could go on and on about how you're only 21 years old and I was banging hot chicks well before the better part of you dripped down the leg of your momma and into her shoes.



...good WE don't want you there. You would probably try to rewrite our text books with giberish about how it was Davy Crocket at the Alamo who threw the first TeeBird at those dirty stinkin' Mexicans trying to cross the border in a sneak attack during the Civil War in 1941.

I realize the 1st post was humorous but it isn't the only time you have freaked out over a sub-5 review of Flip.....

LOL Actually Michigan traffic sucks during the summer and you have to pay a 15 cent deposit on sodas.....besides that MI was pretty cool and the courses were nice.

Des Moines it still the best DG town when it comes to courses.

[jhgonzo]

I remember Bill from Flip telling me that Barry Schultz, Mark Ellis, Dave Feldberg and Avery Jenkins end up around -10 to -15 when they drop by, but those scores are definitely not typical. You need atleast a 450-500 foot drive and mad putting skills to get that kind of score at Flip. (can you imagine the best pros just showing up at your house!!)

I remember Bill from Flip telling me that he personally has never shot under par there, and did so with a big ol' grin. Made me feel good, knowing he was "one of us," (i.e. average-level players who are obviously very passionate about DG).

Then there's John at Highbridge, who's never played a round. He knows he'll be hooked instantly, and then "sh*t'll never get done out here."

[DirtyMittenDG]

I can see both sides to this. I really don't mind too much about the 4 rating for Flip at all. I've actually been considering downsizing both my Flip and Idlewild reviews to 4.5's. I'm starting to feel like a 5 rating needs to be "Perfect". And as much as I like Flip and Idlewild, no one can really say they wouldn't change about them.

With that said, how can you give Leviathan a 5 rating? I have no idea, there are many aspects about that course that have room for improvement.

But what i'm really trying to figure out is.....whats worse. Giving Leviathan (http://www.dgcoursereview.com/course.php?id=1476&mode=ci) an ultimate rating, or giving The Farm (http://www.dgcoursereview.com/course.php?id=3448) an ultimate rating. LMAO




I am not going to rate an easy course anything more than a 3.5-4.

Also if you notice I have only rated harder courses and plan to only rate these in the future since it seems my ratings of easy courses would bring me some :thmbdown: .

Just because everything at Flip City is a par 3 doesn't mean its an easy course. In turn, every hole being a par 3 makes it harder than if it had a "true" par listed. There are some pretty challenging holes with distances of 400-600+ on moderately wooded terrain. And i've never played any Texas courses, but i'm gonna guess that the term "moderately wooded" varies from Michigan to Texas. In other words, there are a couple holes I would like to see you "par" at Flip City.

[tomjulio]

http://tomjulio.com/flameon.jpg

[prerube]

Maybe now is a good time to shoot this one into the watercooler, ZENBOT!
If feels funny not calling out for threeputt to move a thread :)

[Scoot_er]

Just because everything at Flip City is a par 3 doesn't mean its an easy course. In turn, every hole being a par 3 makes it harder than if it had a "true" par listed. There are some pretty challenging holes with distances of 400-600+ on moderately wooded terrain. And i've never played any Texas courses, but i'm gonna guess that the term "moderately wooded" varies from Michigan to Texas. In other words, there are a couple holes I would like to see you "par" at Flip City.

According to Barry, Davery, and Mark Ellis shooting -10 to -15 it seems easy for a high level player.......esp since Mark isn't a top pro.

Also Texas is not open fields like some think and I have played in many states and personally love tight wooded courses and because of this I am really looking forward to playing Vibram at Maple Hill as it looks pretty sweet on vid with quite a few tight holes.

[zenbot]

Maybe now is a good time to shoot this one into the watercooler, ZENBOT!
If feels funny not calling out for threeputt to move a thread :)
Watercooler? Why? It seems like a mostly well behaved discussion on two different styles of rating. If it were only personal attacks I would shut it down but I think all parties (except for myself) have done a good job of defending their POV.

[prerube]

I assumed it was going to turn into a thread of 100 pictures of thread wars, beating a dead horse, ect.

[harr0140]

One of the most interesting things about this entire thing, is the long term ramifications of this. Things are going as I saw they would; and will continue to....i.e. Right now, some of the most hard core reviewers and courses played guys are located in the midwest. Some of the courses in the top ten are also in the midwest. This means; that when some of these reviewers get down to nuts and bolts; some of these courses are going to get four ratings (for various reasons; perhaps the biggest of which, is personal preference). It is bound to happen. You will have noticed that quite a number of persons from here (both new and old), have made the trip to either High Bridge and/or to the Flip grouping.... this year.

Then, west coast courses; which seem to be the least seen/played group on this site at the present; will rise to the top (as has been happening in the past year). This will then encourage persons who may not otherwise have been planning to make the trip west; to go, and play those top courses. At that point, those will be reviewed more; and some reviewers will also give them 4 ratings.

At that point, Optidisc will become happy; because some of the east coast courses that are not ranked as highly as he believes they should (and from what I've seen; so do I); will then fall in place with the others in the top @50.

From day one; I understood that this site would take a few years to get to the point where overall course ratings would get zeroed in. In another couple of years, the top 50/100 will all be zeroed in pretty well (though it will take a few more years after that, for this to get completely solidified).

At that point, there will be a whole new class of top courses based on the most modern design (see Nevin Park in Charlotte; and probably a bunch of the courses in the New England area that I have not seen yet), that will come and take the top positions.

Course design is ever changing. What was considered a top flight course, even five years ago, quickly falls into the "old school" designation. Flip is kind of in this category. By modern toughness standards, Flip is a course to score well on; compared to many others; Leviathan being on of them. I try to give course with great "amenities" their due respect. However, top advanced, and gold level players, will be after more challenge. And, there are more and more of these skilled players coming on the scene every day. (me sheds a tear for the old days when we all played with cobras :))

It is out of enormous, and due, respect to Bill at Flip; that many continue to give his course a five rating. Anyone reading this; if you have not already figured it out; YOU SHOULD BE AWARE THAT THE OVERALL ENJOYMENT FACTOR AT FLIP IS OUT OF THIS WORLD, and will be hard to beat.

There will come a time (and we will all be pining for "the old days" then) when it is the cost of playing a course that will allow you to play a secluded layout like Flip. At the present, Bill is the perfect host and allows us all to play his course for little cost. Get there, while the getting is good; and enjoy yourselves immensely. If a bit more challenge is up your alley, play Leviathan. 'Nough said.

Remember the "OLD DAYS" when we had this long 36 hour discussion about Kops Park!!!!!

I can't wait ti play Flip, Idlewild, Highbridge in the next 12 months so I can weigh in on this discussion.

While I am all for someone reviewing courses however "they" feel they want to, sometimes someone may have an "out there" mentality that might keep them from seeing the big picture. Tom has it right that Dave is not reviewing for 80% of dg'ers out there, but that is ok I guess he is revieiwing for himself. He isnt taking into account ever single DGER out there he is only looking at how the course was for him. While that is ok and fair . . . it does ignore what the rest of the world is thinking. However, should he review a course for 100% of DGER's . . . probably not . . . because if he and all the other reviewers on here said the same thing about all the courses why do we need to have more reviews.

I am a little torn however only because Winter Park is now his #1 course . . . I have played it and I did not consider it a 5 overall because of a number of things. It is close don't get me wrong . . . but I don't think that should be the #1 course in America and right now Dave242 has it ranked there (for what he has played). He has even played a lot of the CHarlotte courses which I considered some of the best courses I have played. He has played Idlewild and I assume Lincoln Ridge. He has played Flip City and many other great courses and yet he still thinks Winter Park is #1. He must have been blind to the loose pea gravel tees which took a big chunk out of my overall perception of the course. DOn't get me wrong Winter Park has it all in terms of course features and challenge and shot shaping, but without good footing on the teepads I cannot rate it a 5.

I think Tomjulio, me (harr0140), Dave242, and superberry, need to play some of these courses together. I would invite along Terry Miller (aka discglfr), tallpaul, and a few others too just for laughs. I would love to hear the verbal sparring and the conversations that would come out of this event. I also think people would understand where each other is coming from better and we would be one big harmonious group afterwards! I'll bring the Tanqueray and Tonics!!!!

Set it up!!!

[tomjulio]

I assumed it was going to turn into a thread of 100 pictures of thread wars, beating a dead horse, ect.

...it's still early. give it time.

[optidiscic]

Maybe now is a good time to shoot this one into the watercooler, ZENBOT!
If feels funny not calling out for threeputt to move a thread :)
Makes no sense there's an actual discussion here

[prerube]

I am reading a bunch of arguments, but read my previous post. I thought this was going to turn into one of those threads where people posted up stupid pictures...I jumped the gun a bit, but just wait flames will take this thread to the landfill.

[harr0140]

Also why does Tomjulio think he knows everything when he has only been playing 2 years????

With that said I totally understand why he would like Flip and its par 3 setup.

No offense but why because you have been playing longer make you think you know everything. And I realize you are a top tier professional too . . . but why do you think you know everything.

Tom has his opinions, you have yours, Dave242 has his, and I have mine . . . lets all understand that!!

[tomjulio]

Remember the "OLD DAYS" when we had this long 36 hour discussion about Kops Park!!!!!

I can't wait ti play Flip, Idlewild, Highbridge in the next 12 months so I can weigh in on this discussion.

While I am all for someone reviewing courses however "they" feel they want to, sometimes someone may have an "out there" mentality that might keep them from seeing the big picture. Tom has it right that Dave is not reviewing for 80% of dg'ers out there, but that is ok I guess he is revieiwing for himself. He isnt taking into account ever single DGER out there he is only looking at how the course was for him. While that is ok and fair . . . it does ignore what the rest of the world is thinking. However, should he review a course for 100% of DGER's . . . probably not . . . because if he and all the other reviewers on here said the same thing about all the courses why do we need to have more reviews.

I am a little torn however only because Winter Park is now his #1 course . . . I have played it and I did not consider it a 5 overall because of a number of things. It is close don't get me wrong . . . but I don't think that should be the #1 course in America and right now Dave242 has it ranked there (for what he has played). He has even played a lot of the CHarlotte courses which I considered some of the best courses I have played. He has played Idlewild and I assume Lincoln Ridge. He has played Flip City and many other great courses and yet he still thinks Winter Park is #1. He must have been blind to the loose pea gravel tees which took a big chunk out of my overall perception of the course. DOn't get me wrong Winter Park has it all in terms of course features and challenge and shot shaping, but without good footing on the teepads I cannot rate it a 5.

I think Tomjulio, me (harr0140), Dave242, and superberry, need to play some of these courses together. I would invite along Terry Miller (aka discglfr), tallpaul, and a few others too just for laughs. I would love to hear the verbal sparring and the conversations that would come out of this event. I also think people would understand where each other is coming from better and we would be one big harmonious group afterwards! I'll bring the Tanqueray and Tonics!!!!

Set it up!!!

AH-MEN brother!
...except for the group hug thing.I hear Terry Miller has a huge...um... collection of discs.

P...f**king S...

I will be in Michigan for the ENTIRE month of August to the first week of September. I have an open invite to one and all to come over and play with me at the Ludington courses(Beauty.Beast, Goliat, Leviathan) and Flip any time. I can set you up with camping and personal tours.

[zenbot]

I assumed it was going to turn into a thread of 100 pictures of thread wars, beating a dead horse, ect.
That may very well happen but I think this thread illustrates that DGCR caters to many kinds of players ranging from casual to professional. We all have different things we look for in a course. If we all agreed there would be nothing to talk about.

[Jukeshoe]

I don't see a problem with "really rough roughs" on a course. If it isn't penalizing you for throwing it there in what sense is it the rough?

Dave: Agreed on 5 and 10 from the pictures (I've never played it myself). 17 looks similar, but I probably wouldn't call it the same shot. Its hard to for me to say from just a picture, so I'll concede that I can definitely see how it could be possible to come to that conclusion from actually being there.

The picture for 17 is incorrect. The basket is more to the right than the left.

[harr0140]

He has played 44 courses in 4 states. He is a gold level trusted reviewer.

And although his rating may only be like 920 he is a solid player who is still developing his skills. I played with him last night and for a guy who has played 2 years he is pretty darn good . . . and he still could get way better!

Just because I have played 18 months does that mean my opinion is garbage . . . heck no, my opinion is highly regarded by some on here because I have played almost 200 courses in 14 states, in just over 18 months, all the while raising my PDGA rating from 791 to 904, and maintaining almost 18 holes per day since I started playing the game.

While my potential may be limited to a 950 rating or so, my intelligence and my eye for detail in design is keener than many I would guess. I am not saying I know everything abou dg or dg design but I have valuable input as a landscape designer and a horticulturist. So why shouldn't my reviews count for something too.

Just something to think about. We couldnt all know everyones story on this site it is the friggin internet. We dont know everything about everyone so lets not dismiss anyone. That why I love this site it takes the big picture into play. While I hate the drive by reviewers who rip a course with no justification and rate them low or high just because . . . their input is important to the overall picture.

Lets try and remember that!

[Scoot_er]

No offense but why because you have been playing longer make you think you know everything. And I realize you are a top tier professional too . . . but why do you think you know everything.

Tom has his opinions, you have yours, Dave242 has his, and I have mine . . . lets all understand that!!

I don't claim to know everything......but when a person has been playing 2 years I assume they have a lot still to learn about courses and design.........heck I have a lot more to learn and am avidly trying to do so.

I am not necessarily knocking Tomjulio himself but instead his cheerleader mentality of a course that isn't on any Pro's top 5 list. Flip is probably a really cool course and although I would love to play a tournament there I highly doubt it is better than some courses outside of the top 10.

Like I said earlier I don't weight into the reviews here as most are from a different perspective and although that doesn'tmake them wrong they just aren't right for me. On the same note many players wouldn't give much thought to my reviews but there are some (like me) who look at things differently and they can find use of my reviews.

No hate at all guys........I just disagree with many reviews here, including Blueberry, which probably isn't even in my top 10.

[harr0140]

...misinterpreting the initial post as anything other as humorous fodder for the likes of disc golfers that GET IT then getting personal is being a douche. Period. I could go on and on about how you're only 21 years old and I was banging hot chicks well before the better part of you dripped down the leg of your momma and into her shoes.



...good WE don't want you there. You would probably try to rewrite our text books with giberish about how it was Davy Crocket at the Alamo who threw the first TeeBird at those dirty stinkin' Mexicans trying to cross the border in a sneak attack during the Civil War in 1941.

That might be the straw that sent this thread to the landfill!!!

[Scoot_er]

That may very well happen but I think this thread illustrates that DGCR caters to many kinds of players ranging from casual to professional. We all have different things we look for in a course. If we all agreed there would be nothing to talk about.

This......and I am used to being the bad guy because I am usually the minority is discussions but that doesn't mean I wouldn't play a round with any of you guys....I especially want to see Nate rock that Stalker and Destroyer at Flip.

[prerube]

I have said this numerous times. pros see courses at their finest, then when regular joes go to courses like Winthrop it is no where near the same. DGCR top 10 does not mirror the pros top 10 in any way.

[Scoot_er]

I have said this numerous times. pros see courses at their finest, then when regular joes go to courses like Winthrop it is no where near the same. DGCR top 10 does not mirror the pros top 10 in any way.

Winthrop isn't even close to my top 10.......artificial OB is one of my pet peeves and the course isn't much without all the rope.

I agree with the last sentence which is why I don't put much weight into reviews from a different perspective and usually stick to the ones from reviewers with similar likes and dislikes.

Granite used to be my favorite in 05' with the gold at #3 but at Worlds in 07' Granite became my least favorite with the Gold jumping to #1. Blueberry remained in the middle and while it is a very good course there were a few holes I don't like at all.

I am still bummed about the changes to Granite........

[harr0140]

Also I don't really care what you think.......I am a lot different in person than on the internetz and unfortunately this is where my DB side comes out. All that matters to me is how I act face to face and I am very comfortable with my demeanor.

That is all that should matter . . . not even what anyone else thinks of you!!!

[prerube]

Personally I think Dave242 should be honored that this is not the first thread to bear his name and this thread is over 150 posts.
4 Dave242 threads (http://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/search.php?searchid=755900)

[Scoot_er]

That is all that should matter . . . not even what anyone else thinks of you!!!

I do care what people think of me....everyone does/should....but on the internet ir is a whole "nother" ball-game.

At least I am not a DB on the course like most the Pros everyone loves.........I save my DB-erry for the Message boards where I piss people off enough to change things......LIKE ADDING MONEY TO WORLDS....which is supposedly going to happen and my "whining" was cited as one of the main reasons the ball started rolling.

[Scoot_er]

So the question remains; what is it we need to look for when reviewing courses?

Fun, Challenge, aesthetics, elevation?

Everyone is different and when reading reviews you need to realize that.........even when someone rates a 4.5 course a .5 like Manor.

[harr0140]

So the question remains; what is it we need to look for when reviewing courses?

Fun, Challenge, aesthetics, elevation?

Everyone is different and when reading reviews you need to realize that.........even when someone rates a 4.5 course a .5 like Manor.

In my opinion whatever you view as important. Don't rate courses for other people . . . rate them as you felt about them no matter who you are from a 2 disc DB to a top touring pro. It doesnt matter this site is all about the average of the whole lot of people!
You cant view a course through others eyes necessarily unless you have played tons of courses all through your development in the game. If you were to play some short courses now and have a 500' throw with a midrange ou liekly wont look at it the same if you played it when you started and couldnt throw a driver 250'.

[BrotherDave]

..with Dave's recent reviews of Flip, and Leviathan:

Leviathan:
http://www.dgcoursereview.com/reviews.php?id=1476&mode=rev#23320

Flip City:
http://www.dgcoursereview.com/reviews.php?id=468&mode=rev#23321

I am finally able to solidly state that he is out of his friggin' mind when it comes to ratings and probably not helping out the "other" 80% of disc golfers coming to this site for solid advice and course ratings.

Both these courses are my "home" courses, with Leviathan TRULY being my home course as I grew up across the street before it was a disc golf course. Flip a four and Leviathan a five? Please....

let's discuss shall we? :)
(we knew this was coming)

http://i696.photobucket.com/albums/vv325/tybirous/youmad.jpg

[Dave242]

I am a little torn however only because Winter Park is now his #1 course . . . I have played it and I did not consider it a 5 overall because of a number of things. It is close don't get me wrong . . . but I don't think that should be the #1 course in America and right now Dave242 has it ranked there (for what he has played).

Fear not........Winter Park is my number #1 course.....which almost guarantees it will not be in the top 10 here. :D
(Sorry Superberry for putting Mr :thmbdown:'s stamp of approval on your course!)

He has even played a lot of the CHarlotte courses which I considered some of the best courses I have played. He has played Idlewild and I assume Lincoln Ridge. He has played Flip City and many other great courses and yet he still thinks Winter Park is #1. He must have been blind to the loose pea gravel tees which took a big chunk out of my overall perception of the course. DOn't get me wrong Winter Park has it all in terms of course features and challenge and shot shaping, but without good footing on the teepads I cannot rate it a 5.

Other than wiping out on the teepad on D and wrenching my back, nope.....the tees did not bother me. While I prefer concrete tees any day of the week and would make every effort to install them on any course I was involved in (as would Superberry I believe), it is what it is. It is part of the risk reward. I know that I put a long to forward stress on my plant foot when throwing a power anny (340' R to L hole for LHBH me).....and I went for it and paid (I did recover for a 3), but my back hurt for a few holes and hurt my accuracy in the narrowed woods that followed.

I think Tomjulio, me (harr0140), Dave242, and superberry, need to play some of these courses together. I would invite along Terry Miller (aka discglfr), tallpaul, and a few others too just for laughs. I would love to hear the verbal sparring and the conversations that would come out of this event. I also think people would understand where each other is coming from better and we would be one big harmonious group afterwards! I'll bring the Tanqueray and Tonics!!!! Set it up!!!

Sounds like that would be a blast! I would prefer Mark Peterson over Terry though.....but both would work better!

[jhgonzo]

Dammit, don't drag this whole thread down. There was some solid discussion that I, at least, thought was valuable to the forum.

I too was enjoying the banter regarding reviewers' criteria for rating a course, and the fact that different people judge by different features was obvious to me when I first started reviewing here (and even before I joined DGCR, when I stumbled across reviews for the course I designed).

Flip's a 5 to me, but I have nothing against someone giving it a 3-4 based on their standards.

[prerube]

Flip's a 5 to me, but I have nothing against someone giving it a 3-4 based on their standards.

yeah, I don't have a problem Dave's 4 rating. Maybe he played the 5 course on the day it was mowed and right after a clean up, but someone else played it the day before when the grass was long and it was crowded with a large group of people throwing beer cans everywhere. same course 1 day apart can hypothetically get a far different rating from 2 different people and both be justified.

a more simple explanation is Dave has a different preference that a majority of people, I may think the same thing if I play those 2 courses, so I can't say he is wrong. I just read the review and make sure he justified the 4, which he did in his own way.

[jhgonzo]

I've always enjoyed Dave's reviews. For a while, I thought his style was so unorthodox and unique that it provided a welcome change from the style of most other reviews, but his often lacked in real info about the course, just those blasted grades! :p Watching his reviews evolve, yet maintain the same basic framework he's always used, has been fun to watch, and certainly a lot of other members agree since I think he's getting a lot more thumbs up than he used to.

I'm still anxiously awaiting his review of LTC Cleveland. There's certainly no Appalachian beauty out there (until the school gives us permission to use those woods, which feature some of the best elevation change on the campus!), but I feel confident (and know with some certainty) that using his grading scale he'll give us a 3.

Keep it up, Dave, and let me know the next time you roll through my town, dammit!

[stsren]

To the OP...
It's one guy's opinion. No, he's not out of his mind...but you obviously are. Out of his mind, I mean...in that you disagree with him. There are lots of things in the world that people will not agree 100% on. Add this to your list, dry your eyes, and move on.

[optidiscic]

Must be a slow day in the landfill.
I think a par 3 course is a wonderful thing if it consists of holes that penalize playing conservatively and punishes risky shots as well. Impossible? No it's possible to create holes that leave u with a risky putt or a tough approach if you don't go for it off the tee. Think throwing over a short pond and leaving a long come back putt with watter as backdrop or a basket atop a cliff or steep hill and the conservative deep throw leaves a risky comeback putt. Also pinch trees or windows where laying up leaves a long approach Punishing conservative play is what makes a great challenging par 3 course. It comes down to executing tough shots. I'm a believer that all 3s should be aceable as this encourages risky play. There should be imminent danger for such risk taking however. An open basket with a bank behind screams easy birdie possible ace. I prefer the basket atop the bank so ace runs can float past by a hundred feet into woods or water and garner bogies. Sorry to bore anyone who doesn't think about design. My fav topic. I bring it up cause a good par 3 course can be the most fun and difficult if it plays fair and punishes both conservative and risky play but rewards precise execution. It sounds like flip is pretty forgiving and gets a lot of ambience points but I've never played it

[Jukeshoe]

Good points. Yes, a large part of Flip City is the atmospherics, so to speak, but there are definitely some holes that will punish you for getting too greedy. Several holes even incorporate what you're talking about re: risky ace runs with drop offs directly behind the pin. And many holes are definitely par 4's for most players in practice, if not on the score sheet.

[optidiscic]

quickest way to kill a thread on DGCR actually talk about Disc Golf Course Design and what makes for a good course

[superberry]

BZZZZZZZZZZ... wrong answer.

It isn't about Flip getting a four. It deserves a four from anyone if that's what they want to give it. BUT Valpo a 5 and then Leviathan a 5? Out of his frickin' mind. Let's break it down between my two fave courses: Leviathan vs Flip in every category and tell me how you get Leviathan over Flip. Ok lets go...

CHALLENGE: Leviathan. Without a doubt one of the toughest courses I know of.

MAINTENANCE: Flip. Second to none

RISK REWARD. TIE, with the edge going to Flips basket placements on many slopes

SIGNAGE: Flip. Great new tee number signs and a map at the beginning of the course. Leviathan has neither.

TEE PADS: Flip. Consistent oblong cement tees to very inconsistent shape ones at Leviathan

BEAUTY: Flip. Stand on hole 7 and tell me you have seen a prettier hole...anywhere.

CAMPING ONSITE: Flip. Leviathan...none.

NUANCES: Flip, OVERWHELMINGLY

WINNER....FLIP CITY


soooo...Dave in effect should state, "Hey, I like challenging courses and that's all I am rating these courses on. I will neglect all other aspects that make for a whole package." Yeap, that's what he should say.

...and Valpo a 5? Good course but some of the lamest and inconsistent tees ever. Same with his rating Winter Park a 5. NO tees there. Loose gravel.

OUT-OF-HIS-MIND!

Nuances - second time I've seen the word in this post and numerous times in other. Anyone want to elaborate? Or is it simply the fact that the course is private and stoners can sit on the table at the bowl hole and not worry about much?

Or, purely personal preference?? i.e. Appalachian beauty, tight woods, punishing rough, and amazing variety.

[Apothecary]

this thread has so much less going for it now that all the fun stuff has been pulled.:thmbdown:

people rate for different reasons. there is no "correct" rating/reviewing system. to each their own. this topic has been in an insurmountable number of times. thanks for beating a dead horse.

[jhgonzo]

Dead-horse-beating threads wind up dying here.
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_bLuK4t9Rcug/SUw0FtUk9eI/AAAAAAAAA9M/Rd8ny7oZbJc/s400/Dead+Horse+Parking+Lot,+Topanga.jpg

[optidiscic]

Sorry subtle design topics and actual discussions about courses that revolve around what makes for interesting holes and what qualifies as a good hole seem to be rare and foreign topics these days.....bullying and mocking people who want to discuss these topics seems to be the dead horse IMO.

[superberry]

I am a little torn however only because Winter Park is now his #1 course . . . I have played it and I did not consider it a 5 overall because of a number of things. It is close don't get me wrong . . . but I don't think that should be the #1 course in America and right now Dave242 has it ranked there (for what he has played). He has even played a lot of the CHarlotte courses which I considered some of the best courses I have played. He has played Idlewild and I assume Lincoln Ridge. He has played Flip City and many other great courses and yet he still thinks Winter Park is #1. He must have been blind to the loose pea gravel tees which took a big chunk out of my overall perception of the course. DOn't get me wrong Winter Park has it all in terms of course features and challenge and shot shaping, but without good footing on the teepads I cannot rate it a 5.


How can I resist? They are not pea gravel pads, but crusher dust. Your discussions of pad preference have mainly centered around getting solid enough footing to be able to throw well and consistently. I equate that to you wanting to throw WELL on a course. Not everyone is like that. Many people can have tons of fun on a great course despite not having the best footing to yield the best round of their career. I do what I can. I except the trade-off of reign over a fantastic piece of property to use for disc golf, but not being allowed (or maybe even capable) of installing good 12' long concreet tees. You could also look at it is just another obstacle - everyone must avoid the trees, and everyone must throw from the crusher dust tee.

[Jukeshoe]

Nuances - second time I've seen the word in this post and numerous times in other. Anyone want to elaborate? Or is it simply the fact that the course is private and stoners can sit on the table at the bowl hole and not worry about much?

I guess you either get it or you don't. Flip City has a special feeling to it that is increasingly difficult to find in this nation. I'm not just talking about disc golf. But I am most certainly NOT simply talking about FC's relaxed attitude towards mind-altering substances.

[Apothecary]

"what makes an interesting hole" and "how can this courses design be improved upon" are valid topics.

"your analysis of the course i rated differently is invalid because x, y and z (this thread)" and "dave242 is lame because i dont like his review criteria" are dead horse material.

[optidiscic]

"what makes an interesting hole" and "how can this courses design be improved upon" are valid topics.

"your analysis of the course i rated differently is invalid because x, y and z (this thread)" and "dave242 is lame because i dont like his review criteria" are dead horse material.

gotcha but I guess I was hoping the lightning rod that is Dave242 might spark some actual discussion...

[BrotherDave]

I guess you either get it or you don't. Flip City has a special feeling to it that is increasingly difficult to find in this nation. I'm not just talking about disc golf. But I am most certainly NOT simply talking about FC's relaxed attitude towards mind-altering substances.

I guess nuances makes you feel like singing this:

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[Jukeshoe]

:eek:

I paused it at 0:35, cuz Gene Wilder is dreamy...:|

[harr0140]

How can I resist? They are not pea gravel pads, but crusher dust. Your discussions of pad preference have mainly centered around getting solid enough footing to be able to throw well and consistently. I equate that to you wanting to throw WELL on a course. Not everyone is like that. Many people can have tons of fun on a great course despite not having the best footing to yield the best round of their career. I do what I can. I except the trade-off of reign over a fantastic piece of property to use for disc golf, but not being allowed (or maybe even capable) of installing good 12' long concreet tees. You could also look at it is just another obstacle - everyone must avoid the trees, and everyone must throw from the crusher dust tee.

I used the words pea gravel to describe what I remember as loose teepads that is all. Trust me I do know the difference . . . I just remember them to be loose and pea gravel is a better description than saying it is traffic bond (which is typically compacted and tight).


I wouldnt disagree with you abour preferring to have a course on a great property than great teepads on crappy property, but at the same time I would rather have those pads so I have every right to rate accordingly . . . as does Dave242, as does tomjulio.

I do appreciate you course and all you do for it, so please don't take my words as criticism of your course, they are just criticism of someone thingking it is THE best course.

That is all.

[optidiscic]

How can I resist? They are not pea gravel pads, but crusher dust. Your discussions of pad preference have mainly centered around getting solid enough footing to be able to throw well and consistently. I equate that to you wanting to throw WELL on a course. Not everyone is like that. Many people can have tons of fun on a great course despite not having the best footing to yield the best round of their career. I do what I can. I except the trade-off of reign over a fantastic piece of property to use for disc golf, but not being allowed (or maybe even capable) of installing good 12' long concreet tees. You could also look at it is just another obstacle - everyone must avoid the trees, and everyone must throw from the crusher dust tee.

Tees affect 1/3 to 1/4 of your round and tee shots are also affected equally by fairway design so essentially 1/2 of 1/3 or 1/4 equates to 17% or 13% of the playing experience. Tees are incredibly overrated on most reviews. They should be serviceable enough to not detract from the experience but to rate up or down dramatically on a course based on tees is silly to me....tees are a marginal factor at most. If I don't notice a problem I think the tees do their job

[harr0140]

Tees affect 1/3 to 1/4 of your round and tee shots are also affected equally by fairway design so essentially 1/2 of 1/3 or 1/4 equates to 17% or 13% of the playing experience. Tees are incredibly overrated on most reviews. They should be serviceable enough to not detract from the experience but to rate up or down dramatically on a course based on tees is silly to me....tees are a marginal factor at most. If I don't notice a problem I think the tees do their job

In my opinion the tees at Winter Park were enough for me to not give a 5 rating. If I could ignore the tees I might give it a 5, but because I need good footing to thoroughly enjoy a course it is worth a 1/2 point to me. Other than that, Winter Park is awesome!

[optidiscic]

In my opinion the tees at Winter Park were enough for me to not give a 5 rating. If I could ignore the tees I might give it a 5, but because I need good footing to thoroughly enjoy a course it is worth a 1/2 point to me. Other than that, Winter Park is awesome!

.5 disc seems fair to me I know of a few who seem to inspect for tees, tee signs, basket types and Kiosks and ignore design and challenge altogether:wall:

[jhgonzo]

In my opinion the tees at Winter Park were enough for me to not give a 5 rating. If I could ignore the tees I might give it a 5, but because I need good footing to thoroughly enjoy a course it is worth a 1/2 point to me. Other than that, Winter Park is awesome!

Tim's done a great job recently with leveling some problem tees, especially #15, so if you haven't been back up there recently I'd highly recommend it. I try to play there at least once a month (been slacking this year), and I immediately noticed the improved footing this year. Winter's a 5 in my books, and I've never had any major issues teeing off (of course, my home course was woodchip tees, then dirt, and now improperly installed but still pretty level rubber, so day after day that's what I've been teeing off from for the past 4+ years), but if there were something noticeable I would mention it in my review--and knock the score down if I felt it appropriate, as I've done for many courses. Some might accuse me of some HBB rating Winter Park a 5 with those tees, but again I think they're perfectly fine and have really been leveled recently, so anyone who's knocked down their Winter Park rating with a review from last year should get back out and play this season, see if the improvements are worthy of bumping their rating 1/2 a disc.

[tomjulio]

I am not necessarily knocking Tomjulio himself but instead his cheerleader mentality of a course that isn't on any Pro's top 5 list.

This is an ABSOLUTELY false statement without any merit.

My state doubles champion partner is Liz Carr and it is def in her top 5 list. I also know of many more top rated pros (both male, female, and masters) who give Flip an easy passage into their top five.

[Scoot_er]

This is an ABSOLUTELY false statement without any merit.

My state doubles champion partner is Liz Carr and it is def in her top 5 list. I also know of many more top rated pros (both male, female, and masters) who give Flip an easy passage into their top five.

Post them then!

How many are from outside of Michigan?

This is what I get for checking the boards late at night.

[Scoot_er]

Mike Henry- "A great disc golf atmosphere."

Bill Themm- "The most charming course I have ever played."

Liz Carr-" It's like walking into a disc golf country club with mowed fairways, flower beds, rock formations, elevation changes, well maintained rough and some of the most kind people I have ever met - not to mention the spectacular shots that will challenge anyone's game. Thank you Bill McKenzie."

Mark Ellis- "This private course is the labor of love of Bill McKenzie and his family. Beautifully manicured rolling hills belie how nasty the course treats errant shots. "


None of those guys included it based mainly on design and it seems the character of the course is what gains the most appeal.

Also a few MI players have Levaithan in their top 5 and not Flip.

[tomjulio]

Post them then!

How many are from outside of Michigan?

This is what I get for checking the boards late at night.

typical from a 21 year old "prove it", yet you were the one with initial inaccurate statement...but yes, I will post what I know that can be found easily online...

Let's start with Greg Hosfiled,who has more course design and experience in his left pinky finger nail than 99.999% of us on this site ever will attain:

http://www.onegranddiscgolftour.com/?p=115
http://www.innovadiscs.com/team/the-masters/gregg-hosfeld.html

...coincidentally, Leviathan is also in his top five. Hmmmm.

[Scoot_er]

Wouldn't it be nice to list the players without Flip in their top 5?

Geoff, Ziggy, and Shack stick out in my mind from Michigan.

Also I would like to see Hos' reasoning......it may be mainly aesthetics as well since it seems to be one of the prettiest courses in the country. BTW it only made his "top 6" lol

[tomjulio]

Wouldn't it be nice to list the players without Flip in their top 5?

Geoff, Ziggy, and Shack stick out in my mind from Michigan.

Also I would like to see Hos' reasoning......it may be mainly aesthetics as well since it seems to be one of the prettiest courses in the country. Also it only made his "top 6" lol

I'm thinking that if you believed the sky was orange, I yanked you outside, held your face up to the light, and spelled out the word..B-L-U-E, you would still think the sky was orange...

giving up.
Stay in Texas...us midwesterners prefer it that way. ;)

[Scoot_er]

I'm thinking that if you believed the sky was orange, I yanked you outside, held your face up to the light, and spelled out the word..B-L-U-E, you would still think the sky was orange...

giving up.
Stay in Texas...us midwesterners prefer it that way. ;)


I'm also thinking the same about you!

I just mentioned 3 of Michigan's top players who don't have it listed.......Geoff and Shack have played a lot of courses too!

Not to mention the fact there are very few from outside the state that have it listed.....although I only looked at players from nearby states.

[Scoot_er]

I'm thinking that if you believed the sky was orange, I yanked you outside, held your face up to the light, and spelled out the word..B-L-U-E, you would still think the sky was orange...

giving up.
Stay in Texas...us midwesterners prefer it that way. ;)

What do you want me to say? Flip is the best course ever? Will you not be happy until I say it?

Well from what I have seen the players who list it do so because of the fact it is so pretty and that isn't the biggest factor in making a great course to me so I doubt it would be my favorite! I'm not saying Flip is bad or anything just that I doubt it is the best course in the country.

[BucketBonanza]

the only things that comes from texas are...

[Scoot_er]

The Best DG designers???

[BucketBonanza]

have you played the course in question?

[tomjulio]

have you played the course in question?

B.I.N.G.O

[Scoot_er]

have you played the course in question?

No but I have heard about it from more than one friend.......they like it but it isn't on their top 5 as mentioned earlier. If the course record is -14 or something I will stand by my assumption that the course is not #1 in the US.

While looking through the profiles I was happy too see a lot of people listing Pickard since it is still in my top 5!

From what I have heard, seen, and read Flip is an awesome DG experience but not the best design around. I also don't see how Blueberry is #1 but like stated earlier everyone has their own likes/dislikes.

[Scoot_er]

B.I.N.G.O

Have you played any of the courses that may be better than your beloved Flip?

Seriously I expect Flip to be really cool but when I talk to MI guys they talk about the experience and not the design....geez

[Scoot_er]

have you played the course in question?

Have you played outside of Michigan?

[CwAlbino]

beauty =/= 5 star rating.

[grodney]

I know many disagree with me, but I think aesthetics have VERY LITTLE to do with how good a course is.

This belief is partly driven by my philosophy that course quality can be objective (despite what other reviewers think), while aesthetics are not as objective.

[1978]

I know many disagree with me, but I think aesthetics have VERY LITTLE to do with how good a course is.

This belief is partly driven by my philosophy that course quality can be objective (despite what other reviewers think), while aesthetics are not as objective.

Potentially, but a course can have a really good design, but if there are tree limbs in the fairways and tripper stumps, etc. Well, I would put those in the asthetics category. Don't stop you from playing but can take away from your experience or even effect your throw.

[mashnut]

I know many disagree with me, but I think aesthetics have VERY LITTLE to do with how good a course is.

This belief is partly driven by my philosophy that course quality can be objective (despite what other reviewers think), while aesthetics are not as objective.

Fair enough, that gets into the discussion of whether we're trying to pick the 'best' course or the 'favorite' course with our ratings here. I don't think we're ever going to have the entire population of dgcr using only objective standards to review and rate courses, and I don't think that would be as interesting of information anyway.

[Apothecary]

have you played the course in question?

lol good call.

scoot talks a lot of crap on flip based on what his brokeback buddies tell him. dude will believe anything. he needs to design a course somewhere and put his money where his mouth is.

[grodney]

Fair enough, that gets into the discussion of whether we're trying to pick the 'best' course or the 'favorite' course with our ratings here. I don't think we're ever going to have the entire population of dgcr using only objective standards to review and rate courses, and I don't think that would be as interesting of information anyway.

Very true. I'd love to see more "best" and less "favorite". But I get it, and it's cool.

And 1978, branches in fairways and tree stumps aren't aesthetics (to me), they are a maintenance issue (and possibly design issue with the branches).

[skinner21]

but where do you draw the line with "aesthetics"? Litter is really just how the place looks. And isn't how the hole looks from the tee pad just more aesthetics? I think everyone's reviews have to have a certain element of judging it on how it looks. Having fun unique hole are why people go to new courses.

[Cgkdisc]

For example, blind par 3 holes IMO are not as good as ones where you can see the pin (other elements equal) even if it just has a corridor to see but not throw to the pin. Design? Aesthetics? or both?

[DiscChucker]

How can I resist? They are not pea gravel pads, but crusher dust. Your discussions of pad preference have mainly centered around getting solid enough footing to be able to throw well and consistently. I equate that to you wanting to throw WELL on a course. Not everyone is like that. Many people can have tons of fun on a great course despite not having the best footing to yield the best round of their career. I do what I can. I except the trade-off of reign over a fantastic piece of property to use for disc golf, but not being allowed (or maybe even capable) of installing good 12' long concreet tees. You could also look at it is just another obstacle - everyone must avoid the trees, and everyone must throw from the crusher dust tee.

BRAVO!!! :clap: That last line is a great way to look at it and it's certainly opened my eyes to a different perspective.

[iloqutiss1]

My 2 cents, Dave 242 IS out of his mind, but in a very good way. I hold high respect for him because he sticks to his guns and continues to write reviews even with the haters hating. I personally prefer more traditional review methods but I still make a point to read his reviews because of the consistent benchmarks from one course to the next. With regards to Winter Park, if Dave thinks it's the best course he's ever played, then simply put in his opinion it is, plain and simple. A man is entitled to his opinion and should not be criticized for it.

[Dave242]

I know many disagree with me, but I think aesthetics have VERY LITTLE to do with how good a course is.

This belief is partly driven by my philosophy that course quality can be objective (despite what other reviewers think), while aesthetics are not as objective.

I agree with this caveat (and this applies to any discussion of good/bad/best): You need to define "for what?", and "for whom?"

You can mathematically do course design for scoring and scoring spread purposed (the " for what") with no consideration for aesthetics, but you still need to know what intended skill level (the "whom") the course will be good for.

Whether people intentionally know do this, they do. Otherwise every course would get the same rating.....or totally arbitrary/meaningless ratings.

Some people I have read here say in their reviews like, "for beginners this course is perfect" and give it a high mark......and then in another review say, "advanced level players who can throw far and accurately will love this" and give it a high mark. IMO, this person's rating is meaningless.

Likewise, someone who keys in an great amenities (parking, tee pads, signs, bathrooms) and great maintenance and gives courses like that marks is making the assumption that all/most people care about those things.

[Dave242]

Very true. I'd love to see more "best" and less "favorite". But I get it, and it's cool.

I think that is an unrealistic expectation.....and I think you get that. :) Like I just posted, if the "for what's" and the "for whom's" vary all over the place, you can not have a list made up by a random bunch of different people that will result in any meaning. I would say that Pink Floyd is the best music made, but it certainly would not be the best for my wedding when my bride is walking down the aisle! :D

he sticks to his guns and continues to write reviews even with the haters hating. I personally prefer more traditional review methods but I still make a point to read his reviews because of the consistent benchmarks from one course to the next. With regards to Winter Park, if Dave thinks it's the best course he's ever played, then simply put in his opinion it is, plain and simple.

IMO, if you want "best", find a reviewer who states exactly who is the "for whom's" and what is the "for what's" that is like-minded to you. Then, his/her favorites list become your best-to-worst list.

Therefore, Winter Park is my favorite, and should be (one of) the "best" for those like-minded to me (with the huge caveat that I have only played a small fraction of the courses in the world). This is the the essence of what I think is "helpful" :thmbup: on any review site (of subjective subject matter) and is what I try to do.

Oh, and I do not think I have many haters (maybe a couple since there are always exceptions), but many just misunderstand.....or understand and chose to disagree.

[GoodDriveBadPutt]

Some people I have read here say in their reviews like, "for beginners this course is perfect" and give it a high mark......and then in another review say, "advanced level players who can throw far and accurately will love this" and give it a high mark. IMO, this person's rating is meaningless.


So there you go. You hate his reviews, and he hates yours. :hfive:

[Dave242]

Not exactly. I am taking to Rodney's points about ratings. I might still love his review and he may still not hate mine. And, just because I think someone's rating is "meaningless" does not mean I "hate" it.......I just ignore it (and "ignore" not "hate" is actually the opposite of "love" :) ).

[tomjulio]

My 2 cents, Dave 242 IS out of his mind, but in a very good way. I hold high respect for him because he sticks to his guns and continues to write reviews even with the haters hating. I personally prefer more traditional review methods but I still make a point to read his reviews because of the consistent benchmarks from one course to the next. With regards to Winter Park, if Dave thinks it's the best course he's ever played, then simply put in his opinion it is, plain and simple. A man is entitled to his opinion and should not be criticized for it.

Another brilliant point and one I agree with completely.

Out of his mind, but tons of respect for him. Hell, I wouldn't start a whole thread for someone of lesser importance, like, say, someone like scooter. ;)

[superberry]

Tim's done a great job recently with leveling some problem tees, especially #15, so if you haven't been back up there recently I'd highly recommend it. I try to play there at least once a month (been slacking this year), and I immediately noticed the improved footing this year. Winter's a 5 in my books, and I've never had any major issues teeing off (of course, my home course was woodchip tees, then dirt, and now improperly installed but still pretty level rubber, so day after day that's what I've been teeing off from for the past 4+ years), but if there were something noticeable I would mention it in my review--and knock the score down if I felt it appropriate, as I've done for many courses. Some might accuse me of some HBB rating Winter Park a 5 with those tees, but again I think they're perfectly fine and have really been leveled recently, so anyone who's knocked down their Winter Park rating with a review from last year should get back out and play this season, see if the improvements are worthy of bumping their rating 1/2 a disc.

It is still the opinion of some that they will never give a 5 to a course without concrete pads. I fully agree all are entitled to their opinions, I just offer my counterpoint in return.

I'm of the school of thought that the tee is just something to deal with (on an occasional basis - I like the "percent of time spent on the tee" analogy that was posted earlier). I prefer to play on an amazing piece of property with unique features and terrain. That is what Winter Park offers, along with some HUGE variety of hole shapes, types, and natural surroudnings. That is the essence of my endless self promotion of the course. I don't feel I have gotten the same amount of variety ANYWHERE in the 107 courses I've played to date. I'm just spreading the word for all to come out and experience the uniqueness as well. Throw in the harsh punishment for errant shots, and the tons of risky greens, with the addition of 9 new Gold tees out there, and 9 more to come by October, I really thing Winter has stepped it up a notch in terms of balance and variety by offering shot placement thought processes and par 4s from the much longer Gold Tees.

Despite the fact that I WOULD install concrete out there if we COULD, I'm not sold on concrete anyway. They would have to be HUGE (6x12 or 6x15 on some longer holes and Gold Tees). They'd have to have all kinds of filler material off the front to avoid that infamous lip that develops and twists people's ankles!

I actually prefer the crusher dust as well for a few reasons. I do admit I could have more CONSISTENT footing off a concrete pad, and maybe some better throws. But, after playing all day long on concrete pads, my right hip hurts - Why? from planting hard on concrete (RHBH throw) with little to no give. My hips are fine after playing all day at Winter, and that includes the 100' elevation change hike on multiple occasions, and the 3 mile long trek from parking lot to parking lot per round (if I don't shank off into the woods too much, or don't spend too much time wandering around to pick up litter). Another huge bonus on the crusher dust tees is not slipping! We play rounds in all kinds of weather, even downpours, and I have never slipped on these tees. I have slipped on wet concrete MANY times! So I feel the best all weather pad is NOT concrete.

What we focused on this year was leveling the uneven tees and bringing out more crusher dust where it has worn thin. If we didn't have to be mindful of winter skiing, we could do a little more elevated tee box style landscaping with timbers and boulders (Standing Rocks style). But we have to be unnoticeable coem winter time on the ski hill, and also allow the mountain bikers to stay along their routes. We've done a bunch of levelling and are still in the process of more, and more beatification around those elevated style tees.

[superberry]

^^^^^ Is that self promotion??

[GoodDriveBadPutt]

Not exactly. I am taking to Rodney's points about ratings. I might still love his review and he may still not hate mine. And, just because I think someone's rating is "meaningless" does not mean I "hate" it.......I just ignore it (and "ignore" not "hate" is actually the opposite of "love" :) ).

Good point, I guess I didn't read that correctly. The review might be great, but the rating is meaningless.

And you make a great point about rating a "beginner's" course and a "pro" course the same... My review titles are all beginner, or intermediate/expert, or the like, but the overall rating of the course doesn't account for any of that fluff.

I know I will cap a very easy course to 3 discs simply because of the easiness of it, but others won't. :|

[cydisc]

In my opinion, the review feature of the site is really two different things.

The first thing is the disc rating. It's the first indication to the reader the subjective quality of the course. To me, this is merely a simple representation of the impact the course had on the reviewer. It's what gets the reader interested in finding out more about the course.

The second thing is the narrative. This is where the reviewer gets a chance to explain what makes or breaks this course. This is the only thing I look at when I decide to give a "helpful" or "unhelpful" vote. This is where Dave is good. He puts forth is his preferences and explains in detail how the course provides.

We may disagree about the rating part of the review, but, like everything in life, not everyone likes exactly the same things.

[iloqutiss1]

Although I prefer properly installed and textured concrete I also agree with Superberry. Concrete is not the end all/ be all of tee material. It does get slick and can be hard on bones and joints( heh heh, I said joints;) ) When I played Winter Park the tee pads seemed just fine for me and I certainly don't recall any safety issues because of them. Wet concrete can be really slick and dangerous.

[cydisc]

On the tangential subject of tee material, I think poured concrete, when installed correctly, is the best possible material for tees. While prepared soil can be a quite good teeing surface, it does require constant maintenance to ensure good, safe footing.

[superberry]

In my opinion, the review feature of the site is really two different things.

The first thing is the disc rating. It's the first indication to the reader the subjective quality of the course. To me, this is merely a simple representation of the impact the course had on the reviewer. It's what gets the reader interested in finding out more about the course.

The second thing is the narrative. This is where the reviewer gets a chance to explain what makes or breaks this course. This is the only thing I look at when I decide to give a "helpful" or "unhelpful" vote. This is where Dave is good. He puts forth is his preferences and explains in detail how the course provides.

We may disagree about the rating part of the review, but, like everything in life, not everyone likes exactly the same things.

Yeah, that cydisc is out of his mind!!!!! He gave Winter Park a 3.5 - CRAZINESS! I question his subjectivity and the impact the course had on him - must've been raining or something so his impression was faded. :p

[BucketBonanza]

no i haven't, but i am not claiming knowledge of anything outside of michigan nor am i making assumptions about courses i haven't played. i can only speak from what i know. you wouldn't find me arguing with you about a course in texas because i couldn't even point to it on a map. and the whole thing is completely subjective to begin with. hard, fun, technical, open, easy, or hard to each his own. it is all apples and oranges in the end. plenty of people from other states have been up there and it would appear most like it. it is almost cliche at this point to favorite the place cuz it is a given :P

[cydisc]

Yeah, that cydisc is out of his mind!!!!! He gave Winter Park a 3.5 - CRAZINESS! I question his subjectivity and the impact the course had on him - must've been raining or something so his impression was faded. :p

For the record, I really like Winter Park. I'm just a harder grader than most. For perspective, I gave Stable Run in Ames, a course that I designed, a 3.5.

[superberry]

I've just got all kinds of sand in my 'gina about the two 3.5-disc ratings that it has. They're keeping it out of the range of flirtation with Top 10 (in and out as #10). Just giving you a hard time, and also taking your comments to heart as one reason we pushed forward with our plans for some Gold tees.

[grodney]

if the "for what's" and the "for whom's" vary all over the place, you can not have a list made up by a random bunch of different people that will result in any meaning.

As pointed out previously, that's why we need this:
http://charlottedgc.com/files/course_selector.xls

Each USER specifies his own likes/dislikes, then the system does the math in the background and applies those likes/dislikes to the aggregate/average ratings/grades as supplied by the masses.

You crowdsource the ratings/grading of a bunch of criteria, but you don't ASSESS the ratings/grades. Instead, each USER applies their own preferences, and gets extremely useful information.

[drickanderson]

On the tangential subject of tee material, I think poured concrete, when installed correctly, is the best possible material for tees. While prepared soil can be a quite good teeing surface, it does require constant maintenance to ensure good, safe footing.
TEXTURED, poured concrete. Red Ridge has straight concrete tee's, and even some dew from the grass on your shoe, and you can end up flat on your butt.

[martinb]

For the record, I really like Winter Park. I'm just a harder grader than most. For perspective, I gave Stable Run in Ames, a course that I designed, a 3.5.

no your not wrong giving winter park a 3.5. if i thought i wouldnt get a gazillion negative votes from the locals who self promote that course, i would review it and only give it a 3 myself.

[cydisc]

no your not wrong giving winter park a 3.5. if i thought i wouldnt get a gazillion negative votes from the locals who self promote that course, i would review it and only give it a 3 myself.

THAT'S CRAZY!!

[grodney]

no your not wrong giving winter park a 3.5. if i thought i wouldnt get a gazillion negative votes from the locals who self promote that course, i would review it and only give it a 3 myself.

MARTINB, OUT OF HIS MIND!

[tallpaul]

Can't trust anyone from Utah! :)

[Emoney]

im a 924 rated player and have 2 and half years experience but i caught on quick.i played a tourney at flip(first time playing the course) and my first round i shot even,(i had a sinus infection also that got worse for the second round). I realistically could have shot 3-6 down my first time playin. every hole is reachable for a par 3 reguardless of what everyones sayin.Its not the hardest course but its the most unique i have seen.Also the short lenghth is voided by the sidehill,dropoff,guarded pin placements.My first round at leviathan(no tourney) was 6 over,it was a grind,and this is also a course that is epic and challenging but didnt have the little things like flip.Thats why flip is 5 and leviathan is 4.5.Flip is just special,i guess u see it or u dont

[martinb]

Can't trust anyone from Utah! :)

nope not crazy ones like me. ;) And no offense to the people who made that course happen, and all the other locals, it is a unique course for that area of the country. BUT comparing it to nationwide courses and design thereof, it has some issues. There, I said it. let the bashing begin. :gross:

[Scoot_er]

no i haven't, but i am not claiming knowledge of anything outside of michigan nor am i making assumptions about courses i haven't played. i can only speak from what i know. you wouldn't find me arguing with you about a course in texas because i couldn't even point to it on a map. and the whole thing is completely subjective to begin with. hard, fun, technical, open, easy, or hard to each his own. it is all apples and oranges in the end. plenty of people from other states have been up there and it would appear most like it. it is almost cliche at this point to favorite the place cuz it is a given :P

The fact still remains that if a course plays with an SSA below par 3 it won't make it to #1 in my mind! At the last tournament at Flip a 970 player shot a -5 followed by a -6 and while that is moderately difficult for a 24 hole course it still isn't "hard".

I'm sorry but I don't have to play a course to know it doesn't have all the things I look for when determining my top courses.

[NDABRUSH]

I've just got all kinds of sand in my 'gina about the two 3.5-disc ratings that it has. They're keeping it out of the range of flirtation with Top 10 (in and out as #10). Just giving you a hard time, and also taking your comments to heart as one reason we pushed forward with our plans for some Gold tees.

The only reason 11th place isn't as prestigious is that it isn't on the front page. If your course is in the top 50 or even 100 out of over 3000 in the states, then that's something to be proud of and all of the hard work was well worth it.:thmbup:

[NDABRUSH]

The fact still remains that if a course plays with an SSA below par 3 it won't make it to #1 in my mind! At the last tournament at Flip a 970 player shot a -5 followed by a -6 and while that is moderately difficult for a 24 hole course it still isn't "hard".

I'm sorry but I don't have to play a course to know it doesn't have all the things I look for when determining my top courses.

Do you think that the higher the player is rated, the more they would consider the challenge level of the course when rating it? To me, that seems to be the case, but I am not good enough to have a problem finding challenging courses to play.

[Dave242]

BUT comparing it to nationwide courses and design thereof, it has some issues. There, I said it. let the bashing begin. :gross:

I won't bash you, or pretend to know your complete criteria you base your 3.0 rating on for Winter Park, but does it have something to do with the "f-luck" factor we discussed while playing Brown Deer? If so, I can see where some of your issues come from. Honestly, I am surprised to here you would rate it that low given that you and I are pretty similar players - rating, D and accuracy.

My expectations for what is good/appropriate/challenging are rooted in my DG upbringing (in NC) where narrow fairways are common. We both agreed on hole 5 at Brown Deer (but when we ran into and spoke to course designer Mark, he disagreed with both of us). You had a bunch more holes you thought were not appropriate based on shape and length:width ratios (where i was fine with them). I do not remember what you told me, but what is the nature of the courses you were brought up on?

Am I onto something here?

[Scoot_er]

Do you think that the higher the player is rated, the more they would consider the challenge level of the course when rating it? To me, that seems to be the case, but I am not good enough to have a problem finding challenging courses to play.

In general yes! Most touring Pros list hard courses as their favorites with maybe a few local "fun" courses sprinkled in.

[tallpaul]

This thread is essentially the debate I've been having with myself in the last month or so (and really, since I began reviewing on here). How much rating % is given for amenities and how much for course toughness. Design is really a combo of both; and toughness depends on the level of the player playing; and the level of the player the course was designed for.... to a large extent. I, personally, attempt to take the gold level player's skill set into account; while still looking at it from the newer player's standpoint. This is one reason why a number of months ago, I began a thread that asked in triple sets of tees; for all skill levels; were necessary for a 5 rated course. We are all going to look at these issues in a slightly different manner.

[Dave242]

In general yes! Most touring Pros list hard courses as their favorites with maybe a few local "fun" courses sprinkled in.

.....and usually a shoutout to their local friends and the course they grew up on.

[martinb]

I won't bash you, or pretend to know your complete criteria you base your 3.0 rating on for Winter Park, but does it have something to do with the "f-luck" factor we discussed while playing Brown Deer? If so, I can see where some of your issues come from. Honestly, I am surprised to here you would rate it that low given that you and I are pretty similar players - rating, D and accuracy.

My expectations for what is good/appropriate/challenging are rooted in my DG upbringing (in NC) where narrow fairways are common. We both agreed on hole 5 at Brown Deer (but when we ran into and spoke to course designer Mark, he disagreed with both of us). You had a bunch more holes you thought were not appropriate based on shape and length:width ratios (where i was fine with them). I do not remember what you told me, but what is the nature of the courses you were brought up on?

Am I onto something here?

California, north south and central. but no, where i was playing back in the eighties doesnt have anything to do with my perception of proper course design.
yeah i remember hole 5 at brown deer. that hole and several at winter park are pinbally, f-luck holes that dont allow proper execution of a disc golf shot. aerodynamics and the physics of disc golf all play a role as far as im concerned, and a 5 foot-wide fairway 200 feet long, or at any length, doesnt even begin to allow a thrower no matter how much skill he/she has to execute a fair shot. actually hole 5 at brown deer at least had a semi-opening to aim for.
heres what i propose, the one hole at winter park that has a five foot fairway which is either hole 8 or 9, if anyone in the world, ANYONE, can put 10 shots in a row down that fairway without hitting anything, i will take back everything i am saying about "f-luck", and "fairness". heck, i would even take it back it someone can do it 5 times in a row.

[superberry]

heres what i propose, the one hole at winter park that has a five foot fairway which is either hole 8 or 9, if anyone in the world, ANYONE, can put 10 shots in a row down that fairway without hitting anything, i will take back everything i am saying about "f-luck", and "fairness". heck, i would even take it back it someone can do it 5 times in a row.

I can. 5 or 10 times in a row. It will be a thumber, thrown low and straight such that it will pancake upside down and slide down the pine needles, leaving me with a very makable 20-40' putt depending on the amount of slide (my beat up Z crush slides better than a putter thrown this way). I could probably do it 20 times in a row if you want (and if you had a beer to offer me and celebrate with me).

THAT is what it's all about baby! FORCING players to make and execute all types of shots from their bag. I can pick up any disc out of my bag and make it do just about whatever I want because I can RHBH, RHFH, tomahawk, thumber, roller, etc. Winter park awards this multi-skill type of player and rewards such creativity and risk taking. Get it, risk versus reward is not just about "going for it" but "how" you go for it.

However, I enjoy the challenge and I have a first run Z Buzzz that I REALLY want to get an ace with. I throw in down the fairway at about 75% power RHBH, make sure to turn it up for straight release, a bit of a right turn anny through the middle half of the fairway, and then the 75% throw allows it to slow down and fade back left at the end. I make this throw 75% of the time for an easy deuce and have slammed chains numerous times.

The only thing unfair about the hole is that I left the one tree right in front of the basket, middle of the fairway, 20' from the pin. This in my mind just forces that slow S-curve throw out of you though instead of gunning straight at it. Gunning at it still allows you an ace run or leaves you with a 30' putt even if you hit the tree in front of the pin. But that 30' putt may or may not be easy because the greens are nowhere near wide open here. I suppose the fact that there are LOTS of trees near the pins at Winter will also discourage many of the old school designers who wanted to leave a 50' clear radius around the pin (I read this in a course design guide published by DGA at one point!!!!!!).

If you don't have the throw, or some other throw that gets you there, then you're a hater. It must be the hole, not your lack of skills. I'm not referring specifically to you, but most disc golfers are pansies and whine like this, and the same majority are also jerk punks who then break down trees that they always hit because they SUCK!

Hole 8, 200'
http://www.dgcoursereview.com/course_pics/2030/eb5f6dad.jpg

You can walk down the entire fairway with your arms outstretched and make it through over 75% of the distance without hitting trees on either side. It is 7-8' wide minimum and 10-20' wide for a majority. The problem is the tree midfairway on the right that makes the "airway" require a slight bend in your flight. The perpendicular width right there is 10' wide, but because of the line of trees prior to it, it squeezes down the allowable airspace for the flight.

Short tee right before that mid-airway flight bending tree
http://www.dgcoursereview.com/course_pics/2030/6ee9e728.jpg

Green with surrounding trees and the basket guardian tree
http://www.dgcoursereview.com/course_pics/2030/1843004c.jpg

Pin to tee reverse view
http://www.dgcoursereview.com/course_pics/2030/2051767f.jpg

[JTacoma03]

hey, how's everyone doing? I haven't read this thread but there seem to be lots of people talking on it so thought I'd mosey on over and say hi.

Is it Dave's birthday or something?

[martinb]

good chance i will get back up there on business within the year. i will be getting in touch with you. and you can lay 5-10 discs up past that tree for me..... :) btw most of the course i enjoyed playing.

[superberry]

good chance i will get back up there on business within the year. i will be getting in touch with you. and you can lay 5-10 discs up past that tree for me..... :) btw most of the course i enjoyed playing.

Well then I'll have to use my Crush so it will slide up a bit futher and get me past that tree (but it's a bit more finnicky in flight). Aren't you gonna give me credit that I can nail the putts from discs that land behind the tree too??? Deuce is a deuce.

[GoodDriveBadPutt]

If you don't have the throw, or some other throw that gets you there, then you're a hater. It must be the hole, not your lack of skills. I'm not referring specifically to you, but most disc golfers are pansies and whine like this, and the same majority are also jerk punks who then break down trees that they always hit because they SUCK!

:thmbup::thmbup:

I fall into that category, and will admit it. But, it just makes me want to learn more and get better.

[landon77]

Wow what a thread!
Since this thread is about my two favorite courses I figured I would chime in.
As of now Flip is a great course that deserves a very high rating due to the atmosphere and nuances it provides. Levithan is awesome and if given proper attention like Flip would easily be rated a 5.0 and in my opinion the best in the state. Levithan is raw and rough and as stated it is more challenging. Flip provides something most other courses can not and that is the superb upkeep as well as the great scenery. In 5 years with more work I see Levithan as the course that people will be talking about only because 4/5's of the holes are extraordinary. If someone asked me which they should play if they could only play one course and they were casual players play Flip, if they were more seasoned players hands down Levithan.

[jhgonzo]

:thmbup::thmbup:

I fall into that category, and will admit it. But, it just makes me want to learn more and get better.

I hope you don't mean you're in the category that breaks trees and branches...:thmbdown::mad:

I assume you meant the "whine 'cause I don't have that shot" category; just givin' you crap because of how you quoted that!

[martinb]

Well then I'll have to use my Crush so it will slide up a bit futher and get me past that tree (but it's a bit more finnicky in flight). Aren't you gonna give me credit that I can nail the putts from discs that land behind the tree too??? Deuce is a deuce.

dont have a problem with the trees near the basket. that comes down to course knowledge and where you place your upshot, in other words course management which everyone needs to pay attention to....my issue is with the fairway, or lack of....

[prerube]

Lets get off dave and talk about this guy: Leafylinks (http://www.dgcoursereview.com/profile.php?id=8236) He's only played 2 courses and rated them both 5's. (both are about 3 disc level courses, not 5's)

[Dave242]

The picture for 17 is incorrect. The basket is more to the right than the left.

Can someone with good knowledge of Flip, please correct me on this (I just don't quite trust a player who is not a local on this - sorry Juke).

In looking at it, I do think I made the Arrow too far left - I think the basket is actually just short/right of the arrowhead. But, the pertinent thing is, where is the basket in relation to the line of play (white dotted line)?

FWIW, I way exaggerated how severe an S-shot you need to throw.

http://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=6128&stc=1&d=1279143357

[Scoot_er]

Lets get off dave and talk about this guy: Leafylinks (http://www.dgcoursereview.com/profile.php?id=8236) He's only played 2 courses and rated them both 5's. (both are about 3 disc level courses, not 5's)

I know the guy.....he's from Houston

Mozola is only a 9 hole and if they had their own scale I would rate it at a 3.5 ad 9 holers go.

Idk about the other one but I have never heard of it so it probably doesn't deserve a 5.


Also I was once told that when designing you need to keep tress farther than 25ft from the basket...........so you can just hit a tree by the basket and drop with a no-so-good shot. Granted this isn't always the case but I think it is good for 75% of the holes around.

[Dave242]

Also I was once told that when designing you need to keep tress farther than 25ft from the basket...........so you can just hit a tree by the basket and drop with a no-so-good shot. Granted this isn't always the case but I think it is good for 75% of the holes around.

I think a lot of people think that this is conventional logic and the "right" way to design a course. But, in reality it does not really make sense. If you are off line and hit the tree this happens around 33% of the time, 33% the disc hits pretty squarely and drops right down and about 33% you hit the other side of the tree and your not-so-good shot is even worse.

Plus, trees on or on the side of the fairway have the same effect.....so why make the putting green different in the error:punishment department than the rest of the course?

Cases for trees within 25':
- Large trees within a few feet of the basket can mask off whole areas where you do not want to land. This can add challenge and reward accuracy on otherwise ho-hum holes.
- Small trees force straddle putts or awkward stances....which test real DG skills (which is what good courses are supposed to do - right?)

What I think is much worse practice in course design that I see an awful lot (most recently a lot of it at Oshtemo), is trees with small-ish gaps 40-60' from the basket. There is no way from the teepad 250-350' away you can chose the gap you want to hit.....and then hit it with regularity. That leaves things to luck. And, at 40-60' the percentage of putting is too low to be a valid reward for hitting it after being knocked down.

[tallpaul]

Whether or not to put obstacles near the basket was a major topic of discussion for the course designers group for some time. I know some of those guys and they were on both sides of the argument; with my most vocal, local (and the guys who tended to be more PDGA orientated), guys championing the "don't have obstacles that near to pins," choice.
However, the future I see, is stuff located very near to pins; perhaps on one side or another; to force a choice as to where you need to be, to make a putt. Shuie (from this site) has a pretty short home made course on his land. One of the ways he helps add excitement to these short holes is by putting pins right next to rough. Try to get at the target on that side, and you will have an awkward putt through the schule. Land on the open side; and it's a wide open putt.
I did, however, play a course in Minnesota, that had the pin for hole #1 surrounded on three sides by thick rough; with only one side open. You literally had no shot at the pin if you did not land in that specific area. Not sure I liked that one....:)

[wolito]

I've heard other people mention that they thought Leviathan was better than Flip, after playing both in the same weekend. I think it totally depends on what rubric you use to review. As long as he provides solid reasoning for his rating, I don't see any problem with it.

Yep, it's his opinion. Remember you rate the quality of the review, thumbs up or down, not specifically on how they rate the course.

[zenbot]

www.dgcourseratingreview.com

[Lewis]

He's within a disc of the average rating for both courses. What's the big deal? :confused:

[Scoot_er]

I think a lot of people think that this is conventional logic and the "right" way to design a course. But, in reality it does not really make sense. If you are off line and hit the tree this happens around 33% of the time, 33% the disc hits pretty squarely and drops right down and about 33% you hit the other side of the tree and your not-so-good shot is even worse.

Plus, trees on or on the side of the fairway have the same effect.....so why make the putting green different in the error:punishment department than the rest of the course?

Cases for trees within 25':
- Large trees within a few feet of the basket can mask off whole areas where you do not want to land. This can add challenge and reward accuracy on otherwise ho-hum holes.
- Small trees force straddle putts or awkward stances....which test real DG skills (which is what good courses are supposed to do - right?)

What I think is much worse practice in course design that I see an awful lot (most recently a lot of it at Oshtemo), is trees with small-ish gaps 40-60' from the basket. There is no way from the teepad 250-350' away you can chose the gap you want to hit.....and then hit it with regularity. That leaves things to luck. And, at 40-60' the percentage of putting is too low to be a valid reward for hitting it after being knocked down.

I agree but will still hold strong in saying it is a good rule for 75% of holes.

[DirtyMittenDG]

Can someone with good knowledge of Flip, please correct me on this (I just don't quite trust a player who is not a local on this - sorry Juke).

In looking at it, I do think I made the Arrow too far left - I think the basket is actually just short/right of the arrowhead. But, the pertinent thing is, where is the basket in relation to the line of play (white dotted line)?

FWIW, I way exaggerated how severe an S-shot you need to throw.

http://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=6128&stc=1&d=1279143357

I might not be a "local", but I can tell you the basket is where the white line is leading to (maybe just a tiny bit more to the right). It's straight ahead, over, and just on the back slant of the hill.

[Dave242]

In general, I agree that this sort of "creativity" should not be used on more than 4-5 holes per 18 (25%). Same as a lot of other creative challenge elements should not be over-used (the postage-stamp-green-with-moat is overused at Idlewild as is the 175' up-n-over-fade-to-the-left holes at Flip, IMO).

Of course, there are exceptions.....but those are outliers.

[Dave242]

I might not be a "local", but I can tell you that the basket is where the white line is leading to. Straight ahead, over, and just on the back slant of the hill.

Cool! Thanks. Someone finally answered.

I find it odd that for all the Flip review thumbers that are out there, no local yet has chimed in on a simple question (that will help knock down the cred of why my 4.0 rating as valid).

I sorta stand corrected then.....but it is still the case that all 3 holes (5, 10, 17) are the same length and that the obvious and lowest risk choice of routes favors a low speed fade/stall to the left at the end of the flight path......equals repetitive use of great creativity.

[tomjulio]

Cool! Thanks. Someone finally answered.

I find it odd that for all the Flip review thumbers that are out there, no local yet has chimed in on a simple question (that will help knock down the cred of why my 4.0 rating as valid).

I sorta stand corrected then.....but it is still the case that all 3 holes (5, 10, 17) are the same length and that the obvious and lowest risk choice of routes favors a low speed fade/stall to the left at the end of the flight path......equals repetitive use of great creativity.

This is wrong, IMHO, and with what I have seen. I have at least 40+ rounds at Flip. All these holes are blind shots with the baskets in precarious positions. Only 17 gives you a full 10m circle, and that is on a steep incline. Pic below...

hole 17
http://tomjulio.com/FC17.jpg

The pin is almost impossible to hit with an exact "straight" shot as you are flirting with the tree dead on top. righties have to slighty anny a shot in, or forehand a skip shot with luck. Once again the big thing is finese. The risk/reward is TREMENDOUS as this is one of the steepest and farthest rollaway possibilities on the course. I have seen drives (and putts) roll down 60 feet, through the trees, and sit next to Bills house. So is this an easy shot?

Hole 5 has a similar rick/reward. A righty throwing a shot with fade to the basket also has to worry about the 50ft almost straight dropoff to the left that falls within the circle. I have seen many come in from the left to take out that risk.

Hole 10, once again, for a simple shot makes the risk/reward pretty high. Short and you are in a valley with no sight of the pin. To far right you are in a bomb shell of a hole with no line of sight. Too far, another drop off within the circle.

Yes, all birdie-able, but I have seen more 3's, 4's, and 5's on these holes due to one of the risk/reward failures rearing it's head.

[Scoot_er]

In general, I agree that this sort of "creativity" should not be used on more than 4-5 holes per 18 (25%). Same as a lot of other creative challenge elements should not be over-used (the postage-stamp-green-with-moat is overused at Idlewild as is the 175' up-n-over-fade-to-the-left holes at Flip, IMO).

Of course, there are exceptions.....but those are outliers.

The greens at Renny.........

4 would be perfect and 6 would be the most but it seems like they had 8 or so.