Altitude and Climatic effects on flight

[Jungle Tim]

Does

location altitude (meters/feet above sea level)
temperature
humidity

discernibly affect disc flight and if so how?

[srm_520]

Ball golfers have gone in depth in this subject. I don't know how similar this can be related to disc golf, but the general physics behind it are the same. The basic ideas if you were to explain it to a kindergartener are that there is less air the higher you are, so that means less drag and further distance plus more overstability. I'm sure this is neglagble in the recreational disc golfer, but you'll get some extra feet. Of course the question is are you consistent enough to know that is was the altitude and not a better stance, harder throw, or better technique that made it go father.

The general humidity is the same idea, and temperature affects the actual give and stability of the disc, so all have an effect, but your observations and results may vary, since there are just so many varibles to consider in a throw.

Step 3 deals with temperture in this link:
http://www.ehow.com/how_4501421_judge-stability-disc-disc-golf.html

Here is a good article on altitude and the effect on the stability of the disc:
http://www.marshallstreetdiscgolf.com/images/torque_0506.pdf

Also, (if your interested) some general info on ball golf flight, which shows some similar ideas:
http://image.guardian.co.uk/sys-files/Guardian/documents/2008/02/14/SPORT.golfballflight.pdf
http://www.madsci.org/posts/archives/2000-07/962413045.Ph.r.html

[Hamilton]

i have consistently found that i throw quite a bit shorter (30-50 feet) in cold weather than warm weather...whether or not that is due directly to the density of the air and it's effect on the disc's flight, or whether it makes me throw differently i cannot say for sure...but i would assume it is due to the former more than the latter...

[sidewinder22]

I'm confused about the link stating that flexible plastics are less stable. Discraft typically rates their FLX molds as more stable than the rest.

I'm also confused about the link stating that headwinds make the disc more stable, where I find it makes it less stable. And it states tailwinds make discs less stable, but I find it makes them more stable.

[Hamilton]

I'm also confused about the link stating that headwinds make the disc more stable, where I find it makes it less stable. And it states tailwinds make discs less stable, but I find it makes them more stable.

yeah i think you have it right...headwind makes a disc less stable...

[_.-Dut-._]

I'm confused about the link stating that flexible plastics are less stable. Discraft typically rates their FLX molds as more stable than the rest.

I'm also confused about the link stating that headwinds make the disc more stable, where I find it makes it less stable. And it states tailwinds make discs less stable, but I find it makes them more stable.

Headwinds make your disc understable, hence you throw overstable discs as headwind drivers (Predator, Firebird, etc)

Tailwinds make your disc more stable, hence throwing Wraiths and Sidewinders into those.

I also throw shorter in winter then summer, though I am not sure that the reason may have less to do with the temp and more to do with my muscles being cold and typically heavier clothing.

[sidewinder22]

Alrighty...I'm not going crazy! Note to self, the credibility of that link has been compromised.

[sidewinder22]

So is it true what is says about crosswinds? A wind going across RHBH from the left to right would make it less stable, and a wind going right to left will make the disc more stable. I think its true now that I think about it that way. I've always had trouble figuring out crosswinds. And knowing is half the battle.

[zud00]

When I'm throwing with crosswinds, I try to throw a disc that will fight the wind rather than take off with it. So for RHBH crosswind from left to right, I try to throw an overstable disc and understable for crosswinds right to left.

[Geoffro]

I think srm 520's post pretty much covers this. I will only add that baseballs hit at Mile-High stadium (now Coors Field) go a lot farther than at other baseball parks - due to the altitude. A good article and video on this here:

http://www.sciencedaily.com/videos/2006/1201-home_runs_amp_holeinone.htm

[ShaZaun]

It makes sense to me that air conditions would indeed make a difference to the flight of the disc...... mile high stadium is a perfect example of this.......

[sidewinder22]

But do discs actually go further in altitude? Less drag, but more stable. Baseballs and Footballs are not using lift, spin, and aerodynamics to go further, only less air resistance/drag.

[ShaZaun]

I am not a master of physics but with less air resistance it should go futher..... that's why some people's drive goes farther is because they throw harder thus overcoming some of that resistance....certain disc are made to cut thru the air (resistance)... that is why they have different speed,glide,fade ratings.......

[Hamilton]

speaking of aerodynamics and lift, don't planes have to go faster at higher altitudes to achieve the same amount of lift?

[swellerdiscgolf]

Sooo.... RHBH
head wind and left to right crosswind = throw overstable disc

tail wind and right to left crosswind = throw understable disc

is that right?
Also nobody has said anything about humidity. I would think it would have the opposite affect on a disc as going to Denver to throw.

[srm_520]

Here's the thing about humidity - its works in relation to the altitude so it's really a non issue. Go to Denver and you don't attribute the lack of humidity - you look at the altitude. Likewise at sea level. The biggest things that could possibly be said about humidity are that it is possible to slow down the disc based on the moisture in the air. Creates more drag on the disc.

Also, it would be hard to compare a football or baseball, so this is why a person looks at golf ball flight. It's no where near perfect, but the ideas and physics of spin and flight are similar.

[AdamH]

Discraft has a really useful, 3 page article about playing in the wind. They talk about headwinds, tailwinds, crosswinds, quarterwinds and all sorts of good stuff.

http://www.discraft.com/res_wind06_p1.html

[Jungle Tim]

So from what i have read here and else where the long and the short of it is

location altitude
the further you go above sea level - reduced air density, reduced drag, more overstable flight.

temperature
Cold air is more dense, increasing drag and reducing disc stability, more clothes needed, greater arm resitance.
Hot days may produce thermals and more turbulent air.

humidity
With more air replace by water molecules, the air density decreases, the water molecules however increase drag. Discs will travel less far and more overstable.


NB*
1. Air is not consistently dense, resulting in rising and dropping of discs in flight though density and draft patches. However a cold still day should yield the most consistent air.

2. Ground affect (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ground_effect_in_aircraft) comes into play whatever the conditions and will give consistent air close to the ground.

[sidewinding]

Tailwinds make your disc more stable, hence throwing Wraiths and Sidewinders into those.

I do not reccommend throwing into a tailwind with anything except maybe a boomerang. ;)

[trifocal]

Tailwinds make your disc more stable, hence throwing Wraiths and Sidewinders into those

I nominate this for Best Advice of The Year. I couldn't wait to try this out. It gets tricky though. I found that when my x-step puts my back to the basket, then the tail wind is in my face...a head wind now... and in mid throw I have to switch discs to a Roadrunner.

Wind can be confusing.

[Lewis]

As a native of Atlanta, one of the worst-5 allergy cities in the country, I want a study on how air pollutants, such as pollen, affect the flight of balls and discs.

[High Flyer]

speaking of aerodynamics and lift, don't planes have to go faster at higher altitudes to achieve the same amount of lift?

In a way of speaking, yes. A rule of thumb is that your true airspeed (at a given indicated airspeed) increases 1 percent for every thousand feet above sea level. Hot and dry climates can also thin out the air.

Basically, it means less hang time, more speed at high, hot and dry courses. I've played from 5000 ft to sea level, and I really don't think I throw hard enough for this to make a difference. Even at 10000 feet, if you threw 50 mph, the difference between the discs ground speed (in a no wind situation) and what it would comparatively "feel like" at sea level, is only 5 mph.

[Lewis]

5mph is ~7.3 feet per second. That's a significant distance increase over a several second flight. But that's also at 10000'.

[harr0140]

If its anythig like Golf I could expect 25% more distance. I moved to Colorado for a summer and worked at a golf resort ( where Kobe Bryant had his little excapade). While playing there I noticed I was able to hit the ball about 25% further. Normally I had been hitting the ball like 250 yards with my driver, and out there I had brought that up to about 290-300. Some of this might have been more confidence I was going to hit it further and some of it may have been actual climatic change. We were at about 9000' and it was considered high desert.

[High Flyer]

5mph is ~7.3 feet per second. That's a significant distance increase over a several second flight. But that's also at 10000'.

Faster yes, but again less "hang time," because the disc "feels like" it's going slower than it actually is, and loses lift sooner.

The disc at lower altitude may be going 10 percent slower, but if it "hangs" in the air longer, it might compensate for the lower speed to get the longer distance.

Factor in winds and it's a whole new discussion. Your ratio hang time to speed for best distance varies. With a headwind, speed is more important than hang time. With a tail wind, hang time more than speed.

[MikePinchico]

This thread has still not answered the altitude issue. Do overstable discs become less stable and understable discs become ridiculously understable? I need to know for this weekend.
When I played in Weed, CA I found that my eagle was a go to disc and my others were very unpredictable. Any of you mountain folks can set me straight?

[notBOB]

i hadnt found much of a difference the 3 times i was in colorado. i treated everything the same and it seemed like the flight paths and stability were the same..

[BENFTS]

I have notices when I play above 4000' all my plastic gets much more stable and goes about 25'-50' less.

[MikePinchico]

What was the elevation you were at? I'll be at 6100'

[notBOB]

i was at courses around 6000' going all the way over 10000' which were literally on top of the mtns. granted i didnt put a lot of thought to the altitude effecting my discs, they seemed normal to me. i wouldnt change your bag up unless you really notice a difference after throwing a round..

[scarpfish]

This thread has still not answered the altitude issue. Do overstable discs become less stable and understable discs become ridiculously understable? I need to know for this weekend.
No, quite the opposite. We've had some Colorado folks head this way for tournaments and I've heard a number of them state their discs were were going flippier than usual at the lower altitude.

[jrawk]

From talking with Kachtz after his experience in the competition there is a valid reason the Big D in the Desert is held where it's held elevation/humidity wise. The constant wind is obvious, but the location is supposedly the elevation, humidity, wind trifecta.

[MikePinchico]

I see, I will have to just see when I get there. This happens every time I go to Tahoe. Thanks for the responses.