Wild and Untamed vs Neat and Trimmed

[U_NICED_ME]

My home course in Zebulon has to be one of the most difficult courses I have ever played and I'm getting close to playing around 40 different courses now. I think part of what makes it so difficult is that if you get off the fairway, it's nearly impossible to recover for par. It's not so thick that you can't find your disc, but, you're left with few options out once you do.

I've noticed that at almost every other course, if your disc strays off the fairway, it's not all that difficult to play a different route or make enough progress to still get up and down in three.

I've tried to think of a few advantages to always practicing this course:
(1) I am forced to learn every throw possible: rollers, OH's, forehands
(2) I am getting better at making good decisions and looking at all lines
(3) I am learning how important placement/accuracy is versus distance

The problem that I see with the last one is that there are no holes less than 250 ft and most DG'ers will tend to go for too much and wind up in jail somewhere just off the fairway; especially if you get a big skip when using a driver.

I know ultimately the course designer probably wanted it this way, but lately, my impulse to hack down some of this cabbage is starting to get the best of me. I am on the club's board so I could get permission to do some of this. However, would I be detracting from the essence of the course by doing so?

I am attaching two images the first one is Hole 8, it is a long hyzer line. If you kick early to the left. You are basically screwed. It has taken me two strokes to even get back on the fairway before. The second is Hole 18, a long anhyzer. Same thing, if you go left or right of fairway, it's almost impossible to get a 3. To be safe, you must get past a creek that runs across the fairway at the 240 ft line or weaker arms just lay up in the middle.

TY in advance!

[billnchristy]

Ohhhh this is about disc golf....

Nevermind...

;)


I like it trimmed, either way. Maybe clean up the first 5' or so.

[bcr123psu]

Ohhhh this is about disc golf....

Nevermind...

;)


I like it trimmed, either way. Maybe clean up the first 5' or so.

Yeah, I was wondering where this thread was going too...

I like it in between...where recovery is possible after a bad throw, but you have to fight for it.

[jkdisc]

so this isnt about beards?

[optidiscic]

u niced me is onew of the few ladies who plays DG......lets not scare her off.........My rule is undergrowth bad/trees good........some random bushes are ok but you should be able to throw over and be able to get into the bush w/o too much trouble to get your plastic back.....Again....trees are good underbrush is bad.

[BogeyNoMore]

Disc Golf - I like a course that penalizes you for a bad throw, but only if you get a decent distance off the fairway. If you have to pay too much for a not so bad shot, or not at all for a bad one, that takes away from it a bit, at least in my mind.

But as to the question: neat 'n' trimmed ...makes for a much more enjoyable time and is usually an indication of decent grooming habits and at least some consideration for appearances, if not a willingness to be at least a bit playful. :thmbup: :D


u niced me is onew of the few ladies who plays DG......lets not scare her off.........
too late! :o

[AdamH]

So there isn't much of a problem finding your disc and getting off the fairway usually costs you strokes? Sounds like good risk/reward to me, please don't change a thing!

As you've already noticed, there are plenty of courses where it's easy to throw a bad shot and still get a 3. Courses with good risk/reward are much less common. Zebulon is the highest rated course for about 40 miles exactly for that reason; its challenge makes it stand out among the other courses.

...there are no holes less than 250 ft and most DG'ers will tend to go for too much and wind up in jail somewhere just off the fairway; especially if you get a big skip when using a driver.

I wish this problem was more common. Seriously, discs has evolved rather quickly so the 4500ft course with lots of holes under 250 that used to be challenging 8 years ago is today's deuce or die course. There's nothing wrong with these courses, they're a great place for people to learn the game and improve their skill. But the future of the sport is courses like Zebulon.

Neat and trimmed is good for a fun round, but you said it yourself, the other courses don't encourage you to become a better player:

I've tried to think of a few advantages to always practicing this course:
(1) I am forced to learn every throw possible: rollers, OH's, forehands
(2) I am getting better at making good decisions and looking at all lines
(3) I am learning how important placement/accuracy is versus distance

[optidiscic]

costing strokes is fine....trees/trees/rocks/hillsides.....but losing plastic, time, blood, and ruining a good time is the issue here.I will never understand the thrill of losing plastic.....I like my scorecard to be destroyed by a course not my good time or my bag.

[AdamH]

costing strokes is fine....trees/trees/rocks/hillsides.....but losing plastic, time, blood, and ruining a good time is the issue here.I will never understand the thrill of losing plastic.....I like my scorecard to be destroyed by a course not my good time or my bag.

That's why not all courses are the same. Most don't cost you plastic, time, blood and ruin a good time...

but occasionally I want to play Idlewild :D

[optidiscic]

That's why not all courses are the same. Most don't cost you plastic, time, blood and ruin a good time...

but occasionally I want to play Idlewild :D

Idlewild doesnt cost you time, money or blood...I thought it was hard but well maintained.......I didnt see a thorn all day there.

[DavidSauls]

If the fairway is fair, them I'm fine with off-the-fairway being punishing, score-wise.

Shouldn't be brutal as far as difficult to find discs or get to your disc (briars, very thick brush, 4' grass, etc.)

Pictures in the original post seem perfectly fine to me.

[AdamH]

Idlewild doesnt cost you time, money or blood...I thought it was hard but well maintained.......I didnt see a thorn all day there.

Good point, I don't seem to remember any thorns there either. But you can spend time looking for discs when you get off the fairway and I lost two in the water during a tournament but was lucky enough to recover them afterward.

[chrishysell]

Zebulon isn't that tough compared to Buckhorn, which isn't that tough either. Check out Sontag. It's a true test.

I like tough rough, it sure beats that artificial golden rope. I learned to get myself out of the rough, it's a valuable skill.

[billnchristy]

Sue won't get scared off by you guys...err...us guys since I started it...

I guess my bias comes in the fact that everything here will overgrow with kudzu if you don't keep it clean...kudzu eats discs mercilessly and is just annoying...hell I have seen kudzu mounds that look like there is solid earth underneath but if you step wrong you will fall 10'. There should be no reason to have to put up with that.

Then again those fairways looked pretty fair to me so I would play smart and throw fairways or mids...the old Navy adage really works best here "The stupid shall be punished". If you want to try to park your boss on a 400' hole with a 10' fairway pay the damn price.

[Noill Golf]

I'd say nvr cut down a tree, young or old... however, wack out some of the shule crap.. I can't stand thorn bushes and overgrown crap.. That is just beyond the rough its downright annoying... Trees are good and you should have to work to get out but you shouldn't have to work too hard to walk in and out to get your disc and throw it...

I was at Lemon Lake and playing Gold... everytime someone in the group shanked it was an expedition to hunt it down... way too much for me... I don't mind shule or trees but overgrown areas that are supposed to be the 'rough' (I don't think 'rough' should mean nearly impossible to get into and out of) is just out of control and not worth a repeat visit

[jkdisc]

Zebulon isn't that tough compared to Buckhorn, which isn't that tough either. Check out Sontag. It's a true test.

I like tough rough, it sure beats that artificial golden rope. I learned to get myself out of the rough, it's a valuable skill.

i was wondering if anyone else got out to sontag

[superberry]

I like 'em both. Don't much mind what's on the ground since my disc is either in the air or in the chains! J/K - as long as a defined fairway of reasonable width is kept manicured enough to not lose discs in plain site, that's good by me. The rough is supposed to be rough - they don't call it the nice. And this isn't pansy bolf where there is a fringe area around the green as well. I also prefer obstacles and bushes to block off wide open greens.

Being forced to learn new throws - disc, throwing arm styles, and throwing stance styles - is a GOOD thing indeed.

Being punished for a bad drive is also a good thing. Being able to make it up and down a hole in 3, after you've shanked a drive, isn't something that should come easy, it should take tremendous skill and make you feel good about "saving par".

I am a bit more on the sadistic side in general, but still believe off fairway punishment is necessary. As people play through more, open up lanes, and unfortunately actually break trees and branches, the rough will open up. And also unfortunate, it will eventually open up too much and you'll be left with a less than stellar course, but at least the local worthless vandals will like it and come play it more often.

[DavidSauls]

One of my course design mottos is that there should be a right place to land and a wrong place to land....and when you land in the wrong place, you should know it.

[fairweather_fan]

One of my course design mottos is that there should be a right place to land and a wrong place to land....and when you land in the wrong place, you should know it.

http://i64.photobucket.com/albums/h185/revrec/word3rp.gif

[Porkchop]

One of my course design mottos is that there should be a right place to land and a wrong place to land....and when you land in the wrong place, you should know it.

QFT

Big Creek in Des Moines is carved out of a nasty thicket. The name of the game is to keep it in the fairway (which are more than fair). Those that bitch about losing discs, the poison ivy, and searching on almost every hole are playing the course wrong. THIS IS THE CHALLENGE AT BIG CREEK. Its called playing smart and strategic golf. Sure there are a ton of opportunities for go got the gusto, but that's why there called risk reward. If you miss the line by a touch you won't get rewarded. Most that bitch are the ones who go for the gusto but don't execute the shot. They blame there lack of skill or strategy on the course not themselves. At Big Creek you have to play within your game or you will get punished = Solid Course.

[CwAlbino]

Undergrowth is a good thing, and is good risk/reward. I think though you should remove any dead trees that have fallen over if that's the case. As long as it is growth(living) then leave it there. Removing trees that have fallen down (especially over gaps) can make the course look better and also be safer, so people aren't climbing on them (although it is fun...). Another thing you could do is trim fairways. One thing I really hate is the luck factor.

The local club is adding in a pro pad at carroll marty (Ames,Iowa) on hole 4. The route is tight with a 10ft wide fairway, and reduces to about a 4 ft gap 3/4 the way down. It's a short hole of about 200'. We went down and trimmed off all the low hanging branches that just stuck out to swat down discs. The line is hard enough to hit without 1 twig hitting it and screwing up an otherwise beautiful shot. That's the type of trimming that should take place, not removing rough.

[bennyb]

It is always nice to play a well groomed course. Fairways that are defined are great. every course should have some rough.
Dead branches if they are with in reach should be taken down.
pine tree trimmed so they can grow.
tress that have no chance of growing sould come down, some times you need to thin in order for the rest of the course to grow.

[AdamH]

Don't much mind what's on the ground since my disc is either in the air or in the chains! J/K
The rough is supposed to be rough - they don't call it the nice.

You're on a roll today :clap:

[Noill Golf]

Rough is a good thing but Brutally Rough is altogether an unattractive feature of DG.

How many of you have played with a group and one guy shanks into the Brutal Rough...? Etiquette dictates that you must help him find his disc for a reasonable amount of time (3 min in tourny)... I for one do not like getting down into the jungle looking for a disc only to come out with a fair amount of that jungle still clinging to me...

Rough is needed...sure
Brutal Rough is not needed and I will not return to courses that are that punishing...
Think about it... do you really need all that undergrowth to make shots harder? no, you don't.. discs generally fly through the air so the trees take care of the punishment for you... I don't think you should come out with sh.it sticking to you all over the place.

Clear out the shule a bit... it's a good thing.. let those here who think that kind of shule is good show just how good it is when hunting for their or their buddies discs... they won't have any good thing to say then I'm thinking..
this is just my opinion but I prefer courses with tough wooded rough and reasonably cleared out shule (undergrowth).

[optidiscic]

Rough is a good thing but Brutally Rough is altogether an unattractive feature of DG.

How many of you have played with a group and one guy shanks into the Brutal Rough...? Etiquette dictates that you must help him find his disc for a reasonable amount of time (3 min in tourny)... I for one do not like getting down into the jungle looking for a disc only to come out with a fair amount of that jungle still clinging to me...

Rough is needed...sure
Brutal Rough is not needed and I will not return to courses that are that punishing...
Think about it... do you really need all that undergrowth to make shots harder? no, you don't.. discs generally fly through the air so the trees take care of the punishment for you... I don't think you should come out with sh.it sticking to you all over the place.



Clear out the shule a bit... it's a good thing.. let those here who think that kind of shule is good show just how good it is when hunting for their or their buddies discs... they won't have any good thing to say then I'm thinking..
this is just my opinion but I prefer courses with tough wooded rough and reasonably cleared out shule (undergrowth).

Amen....who are these guys who like to stand in thorns and Ivy and spend 30 minutes searching for discs....who are these guys....Ive played with 1000 rated guys and everyone ends up in the shule sometimes......a 1000 rated will end up in different mess than a lower rated guy but everyone ends up in the so-called rough. So these guys preaching to keep it on the fairways must play some pansy courses and not realize what many of us are referring to when we mention schule off the fairways.

[WillACarpenter]

U_NICED_ME...you know we love you right?

I mean... I like you, I give you a lot of props for your determination towards learning and growing in this sport (same as I do all the other throwers on here looking to work at it)

...but you just CANNOT LEAD US ON LIKE THIS.

That being said... I like to see a little bit of effort towards keeping the elements at bay...but I don't want bald sand dunes either.

\/\/

[solomon.trenton]

i dont like it, but it is going to happen up here. its something I have grown accustomed to and just wear long socks.

[billnchristy]

Has anyone else realized how ridiculously popular shule has become?

[optidiscic]

Again trees good
thorns. grass, weeds, are bad

deep woods are usually better for DG as undergrowth is minimal....immature forrest is the worst and these are actually unhealthy for the forrest to have all that nasty undergrowth.

[billnchristy]

That reminds me of my buddy Dan. His wife was a graphic artist so he made a framed Off! ad that had a picture of a tent set up in the woods and read "You can't beat Off! in the deep woods"

[AJ_86]

Anyone here played Tuscawilla in Daytona Beach? Before Hurricane Charley, the place was nothing but brutality. Afterward, they cleaned it out and made it look very nice. It's still got some punishing features, like the deep trench ditches and thick brush islands, but it's more playable than before.

[optidiscic]

Anyone here played Tuscawilla in Daytona Beach? Before Hurricane Charley, the place was nothing but brutality. Afterward, they cleaned it out and made it look very nice. It's still got some punishing features, like the deep trench ditches and thick brush islands, but it's more playable than before.

I really wanna play this one...it looks awesome!:thmbup:

[U_NICED_ME]

Will...sorry to mislead you, but there are some topics worth discussion...I have to get the attention of the group anyway I can!!! :p

I love this site because most of the time, you can get some thoughtful and helpful responses to queries! Everyone made good arguments for and against cleaning things up.

I'm so lucky to have a premiere course like this within a 10 minute drive and I don't take it forgranted. Today I saw no fewer than 5 deer while playing a couple of rounds. While my life would be made easier by taking down some of the cabbage...I think I have to give equal proprietership to the animals that call the park home. The blackberry bushes that cut my legs up are the same ones that provide sustinence to many animals in the park.

And like some of you argued....I get better everytime I play there. It is a course of high risk/high reward. It's hard to chew on that principle when you see other courses that just don't require as much out of you!!!

[billnchristy]

Anyone here played Tuscawilla in Daytona Beach? Before Hurricane Charley, the place was nothing but brutality. Afterward, they cleaned it out and made it look very nice. It's still got some punishing features, like the deep trench ditches and thick brush islands, but it's more playable than before.

We played the front 9, it was 102 that day and we said f' that we are going to the beach! But yeah, it was a sweet little course...I can't believe I drove by it a million times before and didn't know it was a course.

[Rip Van]

deep woods are usually better for DG as undergrowth is minimal....immature forrest is the worst and these are actually unhealthy for the forrest to have all that nasty undergrowth.

The point is, are we trying to punish the golfer or the shot?

Having your skin flayed by thorns and then pasted with poison ivy, while ticks hop onto your legs, as you prepare for an easy upside-down lay-up (and par), is just stupid. Contemplating the impossibility of getting out of a clean bamboo thicket, with a million tiny trees in every direction, would be a better experience and a better punishment.

[optidiscic]

yeah I will never understand guys who think thorns, brambles, kudzu and deep grass add to the risk/reward...wtf!

[eegor]

yeah I will never understand guys who think thorns, brambles, kudzu and deep grass add to the risk/reward...wtf!

There are some courses you have to play to understand... I really like a course to have a few very difficult holes, that cost you big time if you make a mistake... it separates players on the score card...

So for disc golf... I like a course to have a few wild and untamed holes and the rest be neat and trimmed.

[optidiscic]

There are some courses you have to play to understand... I really like a course to have a few very difficult holes, that cost you big time if you make a mistake... it separates players on the score card...

So for disc golf... I like a course to have a few wild and untamed holes and the rest be neat and trimmed.

I dont mind difficult woods and some brush.....I am more perplexed by the use of thorns, Ivy, Kudzu, and underbrush to make a course difficult.....they dont affect the scorecard as they are primarily ground level nuisances that merely chew up your legs, lose you discs and add nothing to the actual playing experience

Hole 14 at Deer Lakes is a long wooded nasty hole that many hate but its mostly absent of thorns and nasty shule...but the path to the basket is not easy to figure out/trees and smallish trees abound...even from the fairway I like this hole

Many holes at a certain course id Delaware utilize thorns and high grass as an obstacle....you will get your 3s no matter what but you may or not get scratched up and destroyed by the thorns and nastiness....how is that adding to the difficulty of the hole?

[U_NICED_ME]

yeah I will never understand guys who think thorns, brambles, kudzu and deep grass add to the risk/reward...wtf!

See, Opti, now you pull me in the direction of cleaning out more of the underbrush. It isn't pleasant and I've had more than one scare of Lyme disease, a round of Doxycyline is miserable in most forms!!

[U_NICED_ME]

But...I think I just got what you are saying!

There are definitely holes where the trees alone are obstacle enough without getting scratched up by the underbrush. But damn...it's such a deterrant from landing in there in the first place.

[optidiscic]

NP U Niced Me...btw those deer you love will eat anything edible up to 6-8 feet so chances are if its not being eaten by Mother Nature then you can take it out....most of the out of control weeds thorns and shule are not native and should be removed anyway to aid mother nature.

I always am astounded that when this country was discovered it was entirely hardwoods with no underbrush from the Atlantic to the great Plains and that a squirrel could theoretically run from the ocean to the Mississippi w/o hitting the ground

[eegor]

I play a couple of courses in west Texas that would be boring a repetitious without the native mesquites, cactus and honey locusts... will you bleed? Probably. Would the course be as boring as playing with baskets on a soccer field if you cleared them? Definitely!

There are no native hardwoods in the Permian Basin... just desert, oil, high school football and a bunch of very tough people. You have to use what you can to make the holes interesting... even when it's honey locust trees...

http://smalltownandrurallife.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/IMGP5741.jpg

[optidiscic]

Been to west Texas once. Ouch. This thread was referring to eastern hardwood courses. 2 different beasts altogether. Wind would be the best obstacle out there I'd guess

[AJ_86]

I really wanna play this one...it looks awesome!:thmbup:

We played the front 9, it was 102 that day and we said f' that we are going to the beach! But yeah, it was a sweet little course...I can't believe I drove by it a million times before and didn't know it was a course.

Personally, I don't care for the course... I find the more open Reed Canal to be better looking and better playing. Even if you do have to watch for non-golfers in areas.

I actually think that Tuscawilla and Reed Canal are good examples of this thread topic in one city. The first is a heavily brushed course with a wild feel about it and the second is a much more trimmed and carefully maintained feel. I know people who think Tuscawilla is the best course in the area and Reed Canal is only so-so, while I think the opposite.

To each their own.

[U_NICED_ME]

Holy Cow Eegor...now that's one hell of a bush!

[magictenor1]

The closest 9 holer to me has extremely heavy underbrush but it needs it. The course is an older one and quite short although there is a lot of elevation change. If you cleared the underbrush the course would be way too easy. As it is now if you can hit your lines (narrow) there are lots of birdies to be had but if you are off line bogey or worse is possible and likely. Every hole can be birdied but I make doubles and even triples occasionally.

[AJ_86]

I just played a course that, surprisingly, was both wild and untamed and neat and trimmed.

Strong Arm DGC (link in my signature) is 24 holes and the two halves are very different. The front twelve is long field grass, heavy brush islands and is a nice wilderness course. The back twelve is the opposite. It's in well manicured fields and is almost devoid of brush. A very nice looking course.

Never seen a combination like that, before. Though, from speaking to one of the designers, the wild and woolly side will be tamed eventually. For now it's a wonderful combo.

I took a bunch of photos and will be reviewing it fully sometime this weekend, after I get some info from the course designers about questions I have.

[eegor]

Holy Cow Eegor...now that's one hell of a bush!

Honey Locust trees... they're everywhere out west... from Fort Worth to the Pacific northwest. In the desert, they are just a tree of thorns... in wetter climates, just the trunk of the tree has thorns.

[U_NICED_ME]

Thank god we don't have those here! My sticker bushes look weak up next to that thing. That's a freaking Blackberry bush on steroids!

[DavidSauls]

yeah I will never understand guys who think thorns, brambles, kudzu and deep grass add to the risk/reward...wtf!

At Stoney Hill we used to have a hole that required about a 250' shot to clear a huge area of old logging debris covered in blackberries and other nasties. It was, at the very least, exciting. Like throwing over a 250' pond except, in the pond, you know you've lost your disc; here you felt obligated to give blood and try to find it.

It wasn't a design feature---it just took us a few years to clear that mess up.
Now just a smooth grassy area to glide over.

[andrewkh]

i like a challenge and the whole risk and reward apsect of playing a course like your describing, but i have played a few courses that were basically baskets placed on slim walking trails in the jungle and if your not shooting pro caliber, your screwed. I would say some trimming is ok for the sake of keeping things reasonably playable, but don't over do it.

[jppbkm]

If you think Sontag is tough you need to get down to Charlotte and play Nevin :popcorn:

[Disc Dog]

I like some of both. New Quarter Park in Williamsburg VA is like this. Some of the throws are very forgiving with a decent chance to still par if you do not doink your up shot. But there are a few if you get off of the fairway you will be lucky to come out alive. The tough ones make me a better player and the workable ones keep me from getting overly frustrated.

[deBebbler]

Ohhhh this is about disc golf....

Nevermind...

;)


I like it trimmed, either way. Maybe clean up the first 5' or so.

Five Feet!?!?!?!? Oh wait, disc golf... right.

Yeah, I agree.