Two drives

[Lost in the Brambles]

What's the rule if your first drive is "unplayable"... can you re-drive and do you take a stroke penalty+the 2nd drive?

[ERicJ]

"Unplayable Lie" is not limited to just a tee shot. You may call any shot "unplayable", count its stroke plus a penalty stroke, and rethrow (counting the rethrow as a third stroke).

PDGA Rule 803.06 Unplayable Lie

A. A player may declare his or her lie to be an unplayable lie. The player is the sole judge as to whether the lie is unplayable. The unplayable lie may be relocated to a new lie that is: (1) No closer to the hole, on the line of play and within five meters of the unplayable lie; or (2) The previous lie as evidenced by the marker disc or, if the marker disc has been moved, from an approximate lie as agreed to by the majority of the group or an official. The original throw plus one penalty throw are counted in the player's score.

--http://www.pdga.com/rules/80306

[Lost in the Brambles]

Yeah, I did a little research and found the same info... had some drama on the course today this clears it up:)

[ERicJ]

I think you have to have a particularly bad throw to warrant calling "unplayable" to your advantage.

Consider a tee shot that goes 200' then gets caught in some nasty shrubbery. If your second shot pitches out to a decent lie and your third shot goes 300' then you're 500' down the fairway, lying three. If you call the first drive unplayable you'd have to throw an accurate 500' drive to be lying three in the same position.

That being said there are certainly situations where it would be advantageous to call a disc "unplayable".

ERic

[Midnightbiker]

I think you have to have a particularly bad throw to warrant calling "unplayable" to your advantage.

Consider a tee shot that goes 200' then gets caught in some nasty shrubbery. If your second shot pitches out to a decent lie and your third shot goes 300' then you're 500' down the fairway, lying three. If you call the first drive unplayable you'd have to throw an accurate 500' drive to be lying three in the same position.

That being said there are certainly situations where it would be advantageous to call a disc "unplayable".

ERic

You know, thats not a bad way to play that. I like that idea.

[skurf]

I think you have to have a particularly bad throw to warrant calling "unplayable" to your advantage.

Consider a tee shot that goes 200' then gets caught in some nasty shrubbery. If your second shot pitches out to a decent lie and your third shot goes 300' then you're 500' down the fairway, lying three. If you call the first drive unplayable you'd have to throw an accurate 500' drive to be lying three in the same position.

That being said there are certainly situations where it would be advantageous to call a disc "unplayable".

ERic
That's using rule (2) that you posted above, but couldn't you use rule (1), place it within 5 meters of your spot, throw a 300' drive from there and be 500' after 3 shots?

[80playedin10states]

a lawyer(and disc golfer) would eat the rule book alive...many loopholes

[scarpfish]

That's using rule (2) that you posted above, but couldn't you use rule (1), place it within 5 meters of your spot, throw a 300' drive from there and be 500' after 3 shots?
Thing is, the spot on the line of play 5 meters back could be every bit as bad as the lie. If I can get myself a better spot for that third shot without taking a stroke, its always better to do so.

[Brokensaint]

play it where it lays

[sidewinder22]

Isn't a stroke penatly to go 5 meters back?

[Omega SuperSloth]

play it where it laysamen brother :)

[Omega SuperSloth]

unless it goes o.b. just play it dude if it takes two rollers to get out or a vertical widowmaker into the nether regions thats what makes this game fun(tossin into the unknown)

[_.-Dut-._]

What's the rule if your first drive is "unplayable"... can you re-drive and do you take a stroke penalty+the 2nd drive?

Yuppers, add a penalty stroke and rethrow.

[Omega SuperSloth]

a tee-off is not a lie shot there for you can not re-tee a un-playable lie thrown from the tee only a lost disc drive can be re-teed and just because you know your disc is in that tree if you cant see it its lost

[ERicJ]

a tee-off is not a lie shot there for you can not re-tee a un-playable lie thrown from the tee only a lost disc drive can be re-teed and just because you know your disc is in that tree if you cant see it its lost
No sir. Any shot thrown at any time may be declared "unplayable" at the sole discretion of the thrower. A tee shot that is declared "unplayable" is rethrown (with penalty) from the tee.

[Omega SuperSloth]

PDGA Rule 803.06 Unplayable Lie[/B]

A. A player may declare his or her lie to be an unplayable lie. The player is the sole judge as to whether the lie is unplayable. The unplayable lie may be relocated to a new lie that is: (1) No closer to the hole, on the line of play and within five meters of the unplayable lie; or (2) The previous lie as evidenced by the marker disc or, if the marker disc has been moved, from an approximate lie as agreed to by the majority of the group or an official. The original throw plus one penalty throw are counted in the player's score.

--http://www.pdga.com/rules/80306[/QUOTE]

is there another rule that states that beacause unless your 5 meters from the tee this rule dosnt support that claim

[Omega SuperSloth]

(1) No closer to the hole, on the line of play and within five meters of the unplayable lie; or (2) The previous lie as evidenced by the marker disc or, if the marker disc has been moved, from an approximate lie as agreed to by the majority of the group or an official. The original throw plus one penalty throw are counted in the player's score.

--http://www.pdga.com/rules/80306

pretty murky

[ERicJ]

It's really easy... after you throw from the tee and your disc lands you have a lie. If you declare that lie "unplayable" you can return to your previous lie which is obviously the teebox.

There are probably a zillion instances of this being discussed on the PDGA board but here's the first one I found with a response from PDGA Chuck "Rules" Kennedy:

I hope I have read this thread correctly and not glossed over it to quickly. I think I could have used this rule last year when I was playing a round at IOS #7 with Bruce's youngest daughter. I threw in the middle of an enchanted forest right off the tee on #7. On finding my disc it was clear it would take numerous throws to get it anywhere. I wound up taking a 7 on the hole. On seeing my disc surrounded by Ents could I have simply replayed my tee shot with that shot being 4?A retee would only have been your third throw. One shot into the enchanted forest and 1-shot penalty to come back to the tee for a do-over.
--http://discussion.pdga.com/msgboard/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=668878&page=0&fpart=2&vc=1

[Omega SuperSloth]

" or (2) The previous lie as evidenced by the marker disc or, if the marker disc has been moved, from an approximate lie as agreed to by the majority of the group or an official.

--http://www.pdga.com/rules/80306

where do you see that you might be right but where is your proof show me

[Omega SuperSloth]

maybe next year the pdga can be more specific. if a t.d. tried to pull that with me he better be prepared to give my money back

[ERicJ]

Dude are you serious...?

In the inconceivable event that a majority of your card did not agree that your last lie was on the tee pad after throwing a tee shot, then any TD who knows what they're doing will allow the call for the player wanting an unplayable lie call after a tee shot based on rule 803.01.F (http://www.pdga.com/rules/80301-general) if nothing else.

I've talked to Chuck about when the next revision of the Rules book will be and it's not likely to happen before 2010.

[Omega SuperSloth]

you still havnt answered my question where does it say in writing anything about re-teeing an unplayable lie and btw your disc can only lie after its thrown so if there is know previous lie then youd have to throw whithin 5 meters. or be a man and throw your shot if you dont like throwin from unplayable lies learn some control (if it feels like cheating when your doing it imagine how the other guy feels

[Omega SuperSloth]

i deal with contracts all the time if it aint in writing it dont meen sh**, in court they call that hear say which is a legal word for bullsh**

[ERicJ]

you still havnt answered my question where does it say in writing anything about re-teeing an unplayable lie and btw your disc can only lie after its thrown so if there is know previous lie then youd have to throw whithin 5 meters. or be a man and throw your shot if you dont like throwin from unplayable lies learn some control (if it feels like cheating when your doing it imagine how the other guy feels

Incorrect again. The teebox is your lie for the first throw on a hole.

PDGA Rule 800 Definitions:

"Lie: The spot on the playing surface upon which the player takes his or her stance in accordance with the rules."

--http://www.pdga.com/rules/800-definitions

[cc0049]

I agree with Eric on this one. It seems pretty black and white to me.
Here's a question I have that is related to this discussion: If you tee off and your drive lands OB, I know that you have to shoot 3 from the spot where your disc last crossed into OB territory. Do you also have the option to retee shooting three?

[giles]

When OB you allways have the option of previouse lie. In this case, retee. A good rule to know if you are close to the basket, miss and roll 80' away ob. You have the option of previouse lie.

[Omega SuperSloth]

if the language is so black and white cut and dry crystal clear then why was this thread posted in the first place, go look at the pga unplayable rule thats crystal clear.

[80playedin10states]

the pdga rule book has never been crystal clear...there are many ways to bend the rules and find loopholes..i suggest everyone carry a rule book in their bag

[_.-Dut-._]

a tee-off is not a lie shot there for you can not re-tee a un-playable lie thrown from the tee only a lost disc drive can be re-teed and just because you know your disc is in that tree if you cant see it its lost

You can re-tee on an unplayable lie. The teebox is considered the previous lie.

[craigg]

Sorry Omega,
Re-Tee is allowable.
A lie by definition is the place where a throw is taken FROM. Which means that everyone has a lie, every time they throw.

[Omega SuperSloth]

implied,considered,assummed, maybe websters will change the definition of lie to throw or maybe the previous lie is where i put my bag down before my tee shot

[Omega SuperSloth]

Sorry Omega,

Which means that everyone has a lie, every time they throw.

thats true they do have a lie after everytime they throw then you can mark your lie, you cant mark a lie when you havnt thrown.

[80playedin10states]

your lie is the tee box if you haven't thrown...do you really need 5 more people to tell you this?

[solomon.trenton]

your lie is the tee box if you haven't thrown...do you really need 5 more people to tell you this?

but maybe someone will tell me what i want to hear mommy:(:D

[80playedin10states]

??????.... your first post in this topic, so doesn't make any sense to me..

[cc0049]

When OB you allways have the option of previouse lie. In this case, retee. A good rule to know if you are close to the basket, miss and roll 80' away ob. You have the option of previouse lie.

Dude, that is right. Thanks.

[craigg]

thats true they do have a lie after everytime they throw then you can mark your lie, you cant mark a lie when you havnt thrown.

In the case of teeing off, the course designer was gracious enough to mark everyone's lie for them. When you choose to claim an unplayable lie after executing a tee shot - by default, your previous lie is the tee. It really doesn't need to be specifically written that way to understand.

I know it's hard to change the way you think about something once you've adopted a certain mode of thinking, or understanding about something. In this case, you need to make an adjustment my friend.

[cc0049]

In the case of teeing off, the course designer was gracious enough to mark everyone's lie for them. When you choose to claim an unplayable lie after executing a tee shot - by default, your previous lie is the tee. It really doesn't need to be specifically written that way to understand.

I know it's hard to change the way you think about something once you've adopted a certain mode of thinking, or understanding about something. In this case, you need to make an adjustment my friend.

I'll second that.

[sidewinding]

Incorrect again. The teebox is your lie for the first throw on a hole.

PDGA Rule 800 Definitions:

"Lie: The spot on the playing surface upon which the player takes his or her stance in accordance with the rules."

--http://www.pdga.com/rules/800-definitions

We need an official interpretation of "playing surface". It could be legitimately argued that the tee pad is before the playing surface.

[biscoe]

while i am in agreement with craigg and others that the intent of the rule is for the tee area to be treated as the previous "lie" (and would treat it as such were i asked to officiate on such a question), i don't believe that to be how the rule is written.

rulebook defines "playing surface" as: The area below where the disc came to rest from which the stance for the next shot is taken. The playing surface is generally the ground but can be any surface deemed suitable for play by the tournament director or course official.

ain't no discs coming to rest on or above the tee- just another example of poorly worded generalities in our rules "pamphlet".


i was recently arguing with CK about the same thing (defining the tee as a lie) with respect to casual relief from puddled water on another forum. my position was that casual relief beyond the tee area was not allowed as there is no specified lie therefore no line of play on which to take said relief. also the rules on that specifically address players being required to tee from the tee area unless the td allows otherwise for safety.

funny thing is- if asked to officiate on that i would rule the player had to remain in the 3 meter tee area (or on the pad whichever the case may be) which is in contradiction to how i would rule on the unplayable lie question. (essentially i would call the tee a "lie" in the case of unplayable but not in the case of casual relief)

bottom line is that the rules of (ball) golf are like a thousand pages long for a reason- our "book" cannot address all instances and it is often left to officials to interpret it to the best of our ability.

[sidewinding]

rulebook defines "playing surface" as: The area below where the disc came to rest from which the stance for the next shot is taken. The playing surface is generally the ground but can be any surface deemed suitable for play by the tournament director or course official.

ain't no discs coming to rest on or above the tee- just another example of poorly worded generalities in our rules "pamphlet".

So everyone owes Omegasupersloth an apology because he was right all along.

[biscoe]

everyone was right one way or the other...

[sidewinding]

everyone was right one way or the other...

That makes absolutely no sense. The rule is very clear and the definitions were added to cover the only two things that may be open to interpretation (Lie and Playing surface).

[80playedin10states]

it makes plenty of sense...most of the rules can be interpreted in many ways..

[craigg]

Individual rules are not all inclusive.
When a relief rule is invoked, it sometimes is suppported by (in this case) stance, and order of play rules. Interpreting and understanding the rules requires us to know both the individual rules and how they are related.

[craigg]

ain't no discs coming to rest on or above the tee- just another example of poorly worded generalities in our rules "pamphlet".

Cmon John,
You telling me you've never seen someone whack the first tree and end up back on the tee?:)

[sidewinding]

...most of the rules can be interpreted in many ways..

I know you're just playing devil's advocate and don't care one way or the other but It's hard not to argue with one of the broadest claims I have ever heard.

"Most of the rules can be interpreted in many ways."

Can you give even one example of a rule that can be interpreted in many ways?...and don't say the one we're talking about (unplayable lie) because once you look at the rulebook as a whole you must conclude that it is in no way open to interpretation.

[scarpfish]

For whatever ambiguities supposedly exist in the PDGA rulebook, the fact is I've seen people re-tee unplayable lies at tournaments a handful of times and not once did anybody bother to lawyer over this point, although I'm sure it has happened.

Aren't discussion boards wonderful? :D

[sidewinding]

For whatever ambiguities supposedly exist in the PDGA rulebook, the fact is I've seen people re-tee unplayable lies at tournaments a handful of times and not once did anybody bother to lawyer over this point, although I'm sure it has happened.

Aren't discussion boards wonderful? :D

How many foot faults have you seen go uncalled? Noone wants a confrontation.

My wife plays rec but oftentimes gets grouped with Pro's in tourneys due to low female turnout and she said it's often a very tense situation because the pro women are very confrontational and call everything...or it could just be a female thing.

[80playedin10states]

get a rule book and read it...last time i read one i found several rules that were "open to interpretation"...i personally don't have the latest but if you like i can list some from the book i have..801.03..A(1-3)excessive time...you have 30 seconds to play....but that is AFTER you mark your lie and the playing area is free of distractions...this is only 2 pages in..i have personally seen people take well over a minute but if he hasn't marked his lie and waiting for a group on another hole to "get out of his line of sight....blah blah blah...i am just saying you can bend this rule to your convenience and many others in the rule book...i found a few others but im not into typing that much...i suggest you read the rulebook and find them for yourself..

[ERicJ]

rulebook defines "playing surface" as: The area below where the disc came to rest from which the stance for the next shot is taken. The playing surface is generally the ground but can be any surface deemed suitable for play by the tournament director or course official.
The top of the basket, i.e. D.R.O.T., is considered the "playing surface" with respect to discs moving after coming to rest.

E.g. if your disc comes to rest on top of the basket and another player's discs or the wind subsequently knocks it in, you are not considered holed out on the previous throw. You must replace your disc to where it was a rest and take another stroke (hopefully just one) to hole out.

It's obvious that there are a couple areas in which the rule book could/should be updated. It's also obvious, if you've read some PDGA forum threads, there are areas they've intentionally left vague and do not plan to clarify. E.g. how long a disc must be motionless to be considered "at rest".

ERic

[Omega SuperSloth]

if the wind blew it in before someone else threw then the disc would still be live and the basket would count if someone threw and hit that would not.

[biscoe]

negative- at rest is at rest.

[craigg]

biscoe is right
Omega - if your scenario were true, the wind could take a DROT and blow it 400' away down hill and into the lake and you'd be taking penalty strokes - at rest is at rest. The only exception I know of is in regards to the 2m rule which allows for determining the position of the lie once arrived at. So - if you stick in a tree, and it blows out before you get there to figure out how high it is - no penalty.

[ERicJ]

What's the opposite term for "insta-punk disc golfer"? You know, the term for guys who've been playing a long time and think they know everything, like rules, but don't?

[Omega SuperSloth]

i dont know lets meet up and ill tell you

[80playedin10states]

online gangstas..how sweet

[Omega SuperSloth]

sarcasm? huh ive read the rulebook many times and alot of the stuff eric says comes from pdga blogs, unless steady ed himself comes on the website i think ill stick to the written rules. you want to know the #1 rule of dg 803.01(F.Rules of Fairness) if that dosnt cover you the #2 rule 803.01(D. Appeals(1) is that airtight or whhhhhat

[ERicJ]

After the Rules Q&A, which just got posted back on the website, the PDGA forum is the closest thing to official for rules that are not so clear cut... until a revision to the "written" rule book is released.

I can't believe the guy who was arguing that the tee box is not your previous lie is now busting out 803.01.F... "Fair" is obviously a matter of opinion but that one seals the deal in my mind as to the tee box being your previous lie.

Anyway... I'm curious, have you taken (and passed) the PDGA Officials Exam?

[ShaZaun]

I usually throw casually with friends so if the first shot is super crappy take another my brother.....;)