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View Full Version : [Innova] INNOVA Naming mistakes/mold change without a name change


elnino
10-17-2010, 03:45 PM
Okay so i would like to make a master list of the mold change/ones that haven't changed or got new name. and that way we can find/create a history of mold changes and try to make a list full of info...i'll update this list daily if people contribute.

First the Bad---correct me at anytime and i'll update the list at the top with info
Eagle X and L but no way to tell from stamps
Boss pro/r pro different mold than champ star xg
Roc R plus, ontario, SM, Rancho, 11x, 10x, 8x
Beast old mold new mold
Aviar way too many molds/types to have the same name
Firebirds- 11x to 12x def changed it
Starfire- i think pro starfires made a big fu nad went L mold
Teerex- X, and i think it may have had about 3 molds at least
teebird-11x, L mold for TL, 12x
FL see firebird or pro firebird newer ones are fl
SL see starfire the pro change
TL see teebird, CE teebirds are tls sometimes
Whippet has X mold too right?
teebird plus groan!
Rhyno i hear there are two molds of this but don't know if it changed
Gator with and without bead right
Classic Roc it is named roc so confusing to people

The good molds-one name one mold
xcaliber
Destroyer
Groove hahahaha
Katana
Monarch
Sidewinder
Valkyrie
Orc
Monster
Max
Viking
Rdrunner
Archangel...is there another mold of this
Dragon
Banshee
Gazelle
Cheetah
Leopard
Cobra
Stingray
Viper
Spider
Cro
Skeeter
Mako
Panther
Kite
Shark
Pig
Hydra
Aero
Dart

solomon.trenton
10-17-2010, 03:52 PM
the dart is the gremlin, just renamed

jrawk
10-17-2010, 04:11 PM
Star Destroyers between 165 and 169 grams have different blend star plastic that drastically increases stability. I'd personally be inclined to name them Destroyer-X's.

gcr_russell
10-17-2010, 04:18 PM
the dart is the gremlin, just renamed
I thought the Dart was a retooled Goblin?

agent_peebody
10-17-2010, 04:22 PM
definitely NOT a gremlin

solomon.trenton
10-17-2010, 05:06 PM
I thought the Dart was a retooled Goblin?

thats it. i always mix up those names

rusch_bag
10-17-2010, 05:44 PM
There is a monster x and l.

Marmoset
10-17-2010, 05:59 PM
Gazelle
Cheetah
Cobra
Stingray


all of these have multiple molds.

eegor
10-17-2010, 06:04 PM
Star Destroyers between 165 and 169 grams have different blend star plastic that drastically increases stability. I'd personally be inclined to name them Destroyer-X's.

I have one of the 168gm star Destroyers and also a 175gm...

The 168gm has a big domed flight plate and is severely overstable.

The 175gm has a flat flight plate and is not nearly as overstable.

I can't tell any difference in the feel of the plastic.

garublador
10-17-2010, 06:42 PM
Firebirds- 11x to 12x def changed itIs that confirmed or just speculation? The Firebird and FL are definitely different, but has anyone actually confirmed different FB molds?
Starfire- i think pro starfires made a big fu nad went L moldAFAIK there has been three Starfire molds. The original CRF only, the Starfire-X and the SL. I thought it was the other way with the Pro's also. They started out SL's and went to Starfire-X's.
teebird-11x, L mold for TL, 12xHas it been confirmed that there's more than the TB and TL? I know the engraving has changed but did the mold shape change or did they just replace part of it with a newer piece that has different engraving but the same shape?

gcr_russell
10-17-2010, 06:48 PM
My understanding with 11x and 12x firebirds is that there was no mold change but thE plastic itself was slightly different. For some reason or other it didn't come out as flat and overstable, but it was the plastic itself, as opposed to the mold.

Apothecary
10-17-2010, 07:15 PM
Star Destroyers between 165 and 169 grams have different blend star plastic that drastically increases stability. I'd personally be inclined to name them Destroyer-X's.

+1

the most recent line of champ beasts is a LOT more overstable than previous runs as well.

eegor
10-17-2010, 07:20 PM
My understanding with 11x and 12x firebirds is that there was no mold change but thE plastic itself was slightly different. For some reason or other it didn't come out as flat and overstable, but it was the plastic itself, as opposed to the mold.

Agreed. I don't know the reason for it, but the 11X has a flat flight plate, whereas the 12X has a noticeable dome.

tbird888
10-17-2010, 07:56 PM
If I'm not mistaken, the original TeeBird mold was the modern day TL.

With what we currently know as the TeeBird, you have two different wings (that I don't think are truly different aside from the tooling), the 'I'nnova CA tooled (11X KC Pro, later 11X, and 12X) and the 'l'nnova CAL (CE, 9 & 10X KC Pro, and early 11X). TLs also have this wing tooling variation, but I'm not sure what runs comprised each wing. There is also the TeeBird+ which unfortunately is part of the same family despite being completely different as well.

That's about all I know. If there's anything I missed or have wrong, please correct me.

optidiscic
10-17-2010, 08:11 PM
(I nominate this thread for best concept and best thread ever)

A few questions re Innova

With the different plastics does Innova tinker with the mold to attempt to keep the flight characteristics or does the plastic cool differently and cause variations in the mold...I just tend to notice subtle differences in molds across plastics.

The 11x firebird is not as beefy as the 12 x? Is there a way to flatten a 12x firebird?

gcr_russell
10-17-2010, 08:21 PM
The 11x is the beefier Firebird mold. It just has to do with the plastic, the way it cools and sets primarily. Dave Dunipace has said recently in the "Ask Dave Dunipace" thread on the PDGA boards that the current runs of Firebirds are back to being a lot beefier and flatter more similar to the 11x, due to a better run of plastic. He is unsure, however, of when they will be making it to various retailers, so there may be future issues of distinguishing between the new beefier and less beefy Firebirds.

McLeod
10-17-2010, 08:36 PM
New Panthers have more dome. Also, some say "midrange" and others say "multi-puropse".

solomon.trenton
10-17-2010, 09:20 PM
the newer ones say mid range i believe

elnino
10-17-2010, 09:37 PM
Okay so i would like to make a master list of the mold change/ones that haven't changed or got new name. and that way we can find/create a history of mold changes and try to make a list full of info...i'll update this list daily if people contribute.

First the Bad---correct me at anytime and i'll update the list at the top with info
Eagle X and L but no way to tell from stamps
Boss pro/r pro different mold than champ star xg
Roc R plus, ontario, SM, Rancho, 11x, 10x, 8x
Beast old mold new mold
Aviar way too many molds/types to have the same name
Firebirds- okay the plastic made the disc mold up different but now the tooling on the firebirds(ie asian opens are different) www.com now
Starfire- i think pro starfires made a big fu nad went L mold
Teerex- X, and i think it may have had about 3 molds at least
teebird-With what we currently know as the TeeBird, you have two different wings (that I don't think are truly different aside from the tooling), the 'I'nnova CA tooled (11X KC Pro, later 11X, and 12X) and the 'l'nnova CAL (CE, 9 & 10X KC Pro, and early 11X). TLs also have this wing tooling variation, but I'm not sure what runs comprised each wing. There is also the TeeBird+ which unfortunately is part of the same family despite being completely different as well.
FL see firebird or pro firebird newer ones are fl
SL see starfire the pro change
TL see teebird, CE teebirds are tls sometimes
Whippet has X mold too right?
teebird plus groan!
Rhyno i hear there are two molds of this but don't know if it changed
Gator with and without bead right
Classic Roc it is named roc so confusing to people
Monster There is a monster x and l.
Gazelle
Cheetah
Cobra
Stingray

The good molds-one name one mold
xcaliber
Destroyer molds up different but
Groove hahahaha
Katana
Monarch
Sidewinder
Valkyrie
Orc
Max
Viking
Rdrunner
Archangel...is there another mold of this
Dragon
Banshee
Leopard
Viper
Spider
Cro
Skeeter
Mako
Panther
Kite
Shark
Pig
Hydra
Aero
Dart- retooled goblin but they changed the name so it is okay.

agent_peebody
10-17-2010, 09:38 PM
are pearly orcs the same mold as normal ones? they sure as hell fly better

elnino
10-17-2010, 09:39 PM
yeah i'll have to make a master list and keep listing it until we are finished and then i'll have a mod update the first post so keep coming with this great info and i'll try to get all the info updated on each mold/disc until we have enough for a wiki or something like that.

HeartlessCynic
10-17-2010, 09:46 PM
Can't forget the mislabeled Valk/Viking shenanigans.

agent_peebody
10-17-2010, 09:55 PM
i have two pro destroyers i got from booter. one says "P D" on the back, the other says "P DS"

elnino
10-17-2010, 11:13 PM
yeah i think that was an honest mistake not a mold change without a name change...so valkings aren't on the list?

i wonder why editing your posts is not allowed..... sometimes this site is frustrating!

Marmoset
10-17-2010, 11:19 PM
Along the same lines as the Valkings...
The Orion LS is a Sidewinder with an added nose spacer.
But the Champ Sidewinders I have bought and seen in stores have the nose spacer also. So they are OLSs misstamped as Sidewinders. But it is so prevalent that I'm wondering if Dave has decided to make this the standard configuration for the Sidewinder.

The one or two Star Sidewinders I looked at also had the spacer.
None of the 10 DX Sidewinders had the spacer.

FWIW I like the OLS better than the Sidewinder so I think it is a good move. But you should still tell your customers that you are changing something.

Frank Delicious
10-17-2010, 11:29 PM
This thread is gonna generate a lot of incorrect information.

weeman
10-17-2010, 11:51 PM
This thread is gonna generate a lot of incorrect information.

Agreed. Its funny reading a lot of this stuff though.

mattdabbs
10-17-2010, 11:52 PM
Let me get this straight from the comments so far, flatter destroyers are less stable than domier ones and domier firebirds are more stable than flatter ones? Is that really the case and if it is how would you make sense of it?

Marmoset
10-17-2010, 11:57 PM
Let me get this straight from the comments so far, flatter destroyers are less stable than domier ones and domier firebirds are more stable than flatter ones? Is that really the case and if it is how would you make sense of it?

Plastic cooling and internal stresses and their effect on disc geometry.
No, it doesn't make things easy.

Frank Delicious
10-18-2010, 12:02 AM
Let me get this straight from the comments so far, flatter destroyers are less stable than domier ones and domier firebirds are more stable than flatter ones? Is that really the case and if it is how would you make sense of it?

The best way to find out how stable a disc is, is to look at PLH. Gotta give props to Marmoset for figuring that one out.

Noill Golf
10-18-2010, 12:05 AM
from my understanding (correct me if I'm wrong) but domey discs tend to be less stable but have more glide. So a flat 11x Firebird is more stable than a domey 12x Firebird.

What is PLH?

psudgc17
10-18-2010, 12:17 AM
PLH is "Parting Line Height." Look at the side of the disc and you'll see there's a line that runs along the outer rim of the disc; usually it's a slightly different color or raised just a little bit. It's basically the "seam" that develops due to the molding of plastic. I don't remember the details, but Marmoset did a great job explaining and developing an understanding of its effects.

Noill Golf
10-18-2010, 12:30 AM
ahh.. OK.. Yes, I remember that now and did read that right up on it.

leppard
10-18-2010, 12:57 AM
Old mold and new mold Coyote.

bikinjack
10-18-2010, 01:08 AM
If I'm not mistaken, the original TeeBird mold was the modern day TL.


This is incorrect. I started a thread, which I'm having trouble finding, asking the question of which came first, and Three Putt said not the TL. The L mold of the T-Bird wasn't produced until after Innova started making plastics other than DX. The T-Bird (X mold) was already in production at this point.

Dfwdscglfr
10-18-2010, 01:31 AM
the teebird and tl is easy to tell the difference you can noticeably see and feel the bead on the end

McLeod
10-18-2010, 03:27 AM
Old mold and new mold Coyote.

Is there a run of old mold Coyotes that aren't DX?

garublador
10-18-2010, 10:04 AM
You may want to define what "different mold" really means. If it's just a change in the engraving but the shape is the same is that really a mold change or is it just a way to identify different runs? Different blends of plastic might cool differently and fly different, but is that really a mold change?

cfair
10-18-2010, 10:16 AM
different plastics don't constitute different molds. Otherwise every run of gateway putters would be a new mold.

However in the case of Firebirds there is a noticable difference in dome shape between runs and plastic. However dome shape is largely an uncontrollable factor in most processes. Granted certain things can be done to encourage doming or discourage it in the cooling process. When it comes to Innova though I don't think they do anything for or against it.

solomon.trenton
10-18-2010, 10:33 AM
You may want to define what "different mold" really means. If it's just a change in the engraving but the shape is the same is that really a mold change or is it just a way to identify different runs? Different blends of plastic might cool differently and fly different, but is that really a mold change?

i wouldnt count is as a mold change, I was thinking adding/deleting a bead would count

billnchristy
10-18-2010, 10:39 AM
Valk did change when the viking came out. It went from being labeled as a VK to a VL and the wing changed as well. I strongly believe the old valk is what the viking is now and maybe they had an "L" version that became the new valk.

booter
10-18-2010, 11:31 AM
ok so just to clarify for any confusion
the 11xfb and 12xfb are the same mold, the 12x's just cooled different and domed up. Those 12x's are less overstable than the 11xfbs. 11xfbs are flat and beefy. However I noticed after I bought some asia open fbs that they made a new core. So the fb has a new core as of recently. But the new molds havnt made it to retailers yet according to dave d. So I'd say if ur counting ce fbs too,theres more molds.
ce fx
ce f
ce fl
fl
x
and the new cored fbs. W/ the www tooling

but for making it easy. There's only x molds and l molds.

cefx,fx,new www tooled fbs are the same,just different abbreviations. The ce f,cefl,and fl are the same as well,just different abbreviations again.
rhynos,theres 2. Ranchos and ontarios. No difference other than the change in tooling.

as far as the labeling on the destroyers,as I've said time andtime again,thats just a specific persons wayof abbreviating them. No hange really. Now when you tlk eagle l and eagle x yes.the abreviation hange has a purpose then

confusing? Yes indeed.

booter
10-18-2010, 11:47 AM
oh. Almost forgot. The whole beefier bosses in light weights. Those are referred to as starlite . Not a mold change but confusing still because all it refers to is the boss in lighter weight star material. If they continue the starlite moniker,itll just confuse people even more.

ZBoazMobster
10-18-2010, 12:13 PM
Threads like these give me ammo for shyt-talk at the course. Also, they put my monies anywhere but there.

Just a couple days ago, a guy pulled two Eagles out of his bag and said: "Oh but they're so different." They were nothing alike. I assume one was an Eagle-X... I don't know which is which, and I don't care. For a company that 'pioneered' this sport... they really don't have an ounce of care these days. I feel for every one new to the sport, and have a desire to learn what is what. Because it's impossible if Innova is what they have to judge by. Industries should have standards. It's called Industry Standards. I just recieved the 'Universal Disc Chart' from Marshall Street. Thank god there are some third parties to clean up this mess.

cfair
10-18-2010, 12:21 PM
Yeah, industry standards. Like Gateway is any better. Even discraft has issues. I guess thats what happens when you make more discs than anyone else. Just wait till Lat 64 is able to push out a few more runs, then there will be all kinds of differences for them as well. The only people I don't see as having run issues is Vibram, however so much of their tester stuff changes if you liked it and didn't know it changed you'd be a little sad (dgdave loved the untooled first test of the VP's...).

ZBoazMobster
10-18-2010, 12:31 PM
Yeah, industry standards. Like Gateway is any better. Even discraft has issues. I guess thats what happens when you make more discs than anyone else. Just wait till Lat 64 is able to push out a few more runs, then there will be all kinds of differences for them as well. The only people I don't see as having run issues is Vibram, however so much of their tester stuff changes if you liked it and didn't know it changed you'd be a little sad (dgdave loved the untooled first test of the VP's...).

I hope you're wrong. I have high hopes for L64. As for Discraft: atleast when a change is made intentionally... you know about it. Prototype this; prototype that. For instance, the Nuke Plus. Vibram is awesome tho. I was impressed to see they pressed putters from a slug. I'll bet pressing is less inclined to be effected by atmospheric changes. Not that I know this to be fact... just an educated assumtion.

prerube
10-18-2010, 01:12 PM
First run birdies did not have thumbtrak, they were very domey too.

Frank Delicious
10-18-2010, 01:18 PM
Industries should have standards. It's called Industry Standards.

Industries only follow standards that are enforced by a regulatory agency. Companies are constantly trying to skirt industry standards and regulations because they usually mean more work/money. The way Innova does it is to tweak molds and release them under the same name to avoid getting a disc reapproved and to keep name recognition.

You should probably hate less on the company that does what every company out there does and hate more on the lack of a real regulatory agency. Innova has no incentive to not exploit loopholes or bend the rules the PDGA sets down. It's not like they will get punished for their actions.

ZBoazMobster
10-18-2010, 01:22 PM
hate more on the lack of a real regulatory agency.

So, Obama needs a Disc Czar...

Seriously Frank: Point taken.

ian.
10-18-2010, 01:24 PM
i saw in borgs bag the other day he has a nightshift sidewinder..anyone know anything bout these? sure would love to get my hands on one or at least know what to look for

Frank Delicious
10-18-2010, 01:26 PM
i saw in borgs bag the other day he has a nightshift sidewinder..anyone know anything bout these? sure would love to get my hands on one or at least know what to look for

Yeah I have one, it's called a QOLS

deBebbler
10-18-2010, 08:20 PM
So, Obama needs a Disc Czar...


I've been saying this for years. :|

houser
10-19-2010, 12:24 AM
ive got 3 side winders one dx, star (both 175 g) and a 170g champ. and the star/champ are very different from the dx. dx is real flippy like it should be but the star and champ fly considerably more stable. think its cause the flight plate has more of a dome shape to it instead of being flat like the dx. weird.

elnino
10-19-2010, 12:37 AM
different plastics don't constitute different molds nor tooling only changes...i mean changing the mold and not clearly changing the names.

First the Bad---correct me at anytime and i'll update the list at the top with info
Valkyrie-i didn't know but the early ones might have been VK and now they are L molded or VL
Eagle X and L but no way to tell from stamps
Boss pro/r pro different mold than champ star xg
Roc R plus, ontario, SM, Rancho, 11x, 10x, 8x
Beast old mold new mold
Aviar way too many molds/types to have the same name
Firebirds- okay the plastic made the disc mold up different but now the tooling on the firebirds(ie asian opens are different) www.com now
Starfire- i think pro starfires made a big fu nad went L mold
Teerex- X, and i think it may have had about 3 molds at least
teebird-With what we currently know as the TeeBird, you have two different wings (that I don't think are truly different aside from the tooling), the 'I'nnova CA tooled (11X KC Pro, later 11X, and 12X) and the 'l'nnova CAL (CE, 9 & 10X KC Pro, and early 11X). TLs also have this wing tooling variation, but I'm not sure what runs comprised each wing. There is also the TeeBird+ which unfortunately is part of the same family despite being completely different as well.
FL see firebird or pro firebird newer ones are fl
SL see starfire the pro change
TL see teebird, CE teebirds are tls sometimes
Whippet has X mold too right?
teebird plus groan!
Rhyno two different toolings but the mold didn't change.
Gator with and without bead right
Classic Roc it is named roc so confusing to people
Monster There is a monster x and l.
Gazelle
Cheetah
Cobra
Stingray
Sidewinder appears the star champs changed with spacer added to copy LS
Coyote- old mold and new mold
The good molds-one name one mold
xcaliber
Destroyer molds up different but
Groove hahahaha
Katana
Monarch
Orc
Max
Viking
Rdrunner
Archangel...is there another mold of this
Dragon
Banshee
Leopard
Viper
Spider
Cro
Skeeter
Mako
Panther
Kite
Shark
Pig
Hydra
Aero
Dart- retooled goblin but they changed the name so it is okay.

Stevo
10-19-2010, 12:49 AM
arent the new Discmania Gremlins a beadless Gremlin - which was a Ching Sniper?

My friend throws Gremlins but I'm not too familiar with them. Could be mistaken...

djjeremiahj
10-19-2010, 05:12 AM
maybe Discraft can start making Reapers again...
with or without a name change i'd be happy.

agent_peebody
10-22-2010, 02:12 PM
did anybody mention monsters and monster-x's

apdrvya
10-22-2010, 02:13 PM
stevo, just bought a new discmania gremlin.
huge bead duder

agent_peebody
10-22-2010, 02:16 PM
oh yeah, massive bead on those things. they're surprisingly neutral in flight for such a huge bead.

booter
10-22-2010, 02:33 PM
there is a run of beadless gremlins but theyre cfr and only in star plastic. i believe vr said there are dx beadless gremlins too

solomon.trenton
10-22-2010, 03:27 PM
there is a run of beadless gremlins but theyre cfr and only in star plastic. i believe vr said there are dx beadless gremlins too

im pretty sure i have one

captain jack
10-22-2010, 11:11 PM
What about the VM ?
Its a Valkyrie top with a Monarch bottom.

toothyfish
10-22-2010, 11:56 PM
Add the Viper...the DX Viper is the normal mold, but the CFR (Champion) Viper is an X-mold. The wing is thicker at the very edge.

Also, the Gazelle, which you have listed, you could add the original mold was the Ontario and the current is a Rancho. They are different, though it's slight.

agent_peebody
10-23-2010, 12:01 AM
i like this thread, i learn something new here erry day

toothyfish
10-23-2010, 12:01 AM
The point earlier about the Teebird is interesting...there is the CAL (lnnova) engraving and the CA (Innova) engraving but I don't see any differences. the CAL mold ones are flatter and more overstable but that could also be an affect of the cooling, plastic, etc. not a difference in the mold itself.

bettsjc
10-25-2010, 07:18 PM
Alright. My addition.

Yes, the Beast has an "old mold" and "new mold".

The regular beast(no endorsement) and the Barry 1x is what we know today as the ORC.

The new "Beast" is an L mold of the old mold/ORC

agent_peebody
10-25-2010, 07:19 PM
old mold beasts are NOT the same as orcs. similar, yes. but the same, no.

bettsjc
10-25-2010, 07:29 PM
How are they different? they are identical in measurements and in flight.

agent_peebody
10-25-2010, 07:29 PM
mine aren't shaped the same at all. the beasts have a beefier wing

bettsjc
10-25-2010, 07:34 PM
Beefier meaning what? The old Beasts and Orcs I've had all have the same top, same rim depth, same rim width and same curviture on the wing. They throw the same. I wish I could find flight specs, but all I've ever been able to find is specs for the new mold. Its unclear why the Beast mold was ever changed, but might have something to do with Barry Shultz, so maybe we could ask him.

Anyways, to me, the Orc is the Beast X and the 2xBeast is a Beast L

agent_peebody
10-25-2010, 07:36 PM
my orcs are more curved, where my beasts are flatter with a clear bevel on the rim towards the center of the disc.

personally, i think the valk rim is similar to the old mold beasts, just a little thinner

bettsjc
10-25-2010, 07:41 PM
my orcs are more curved, where my beasts are flatter with a clear bevel on the rim towards the center of the disc.

personally, i think the valk rim is similar to the old mold beasts, just a little thinner

This is where it gets a little scetchy...

We all know that "domeyness" can differ significantly between molds of any disc, which makes that hard to be definitive.

Frank Delicious
10-25-2010, 08:30 PM
old most beasts and Orcs are not the same, they are very close but not the same. The beast was retooled b/c of how close it was to the orc.

agent_peebody
10-25-2010, 08:34 PM
word. the orc is more curved and the very edge of the disc isn't as beefy

mabraddock
10-25-2010, 09:46 PM
i have two champ orcs, one that's a couple years old and is real flat, i got an other one (cause i thought i lost the first one) and domey as hell.... doesn't fly nearly the same but does seem to glide a little more (and fade a lot more)...

bettsjc
10-25-2010, 10:14 PM
I guess the Orc/Beast can be left up for debate.

It just doesnt make sense to me that they would create a new mold that does the same and is "almost" identical the same disc, then retool the existing name? Why not just retool the mold and make the retooled disc a different name?

ThreePutt?

Frank Delicious
10-25-2010, 10:41 PM
It's not really a debate. The old mold beast was less stable than an orc and from what I remember Dave D didn't plan for the orc to turn out close as close to the beast as it did. They were kinda in uncharted territory with the rim width of the beast/orc at the time.

Three Putt
10-25-2010, 10:52 PM
I guess the Orc/Beast can be left up for debate.

It just doesnt make sense to me that they would create a new mold that does the same and is "almost" identical the same disc, then retool the existing name? Why not just retool the mold and make the retooled disc a different name?

ThreePutt?The Orc is not the old mold Beast.

The Orc turned out to be very close to the old mold Beast, so Innova retooled the Beast. Bad move? I think so. To me it would have made more sense to retool the new Orc into something more stable than to turn the established Beast into something less stable, but Dave D didn't call and ask me what I thought.

Marmoset
10-25-2010, 10:54 PM
Not that Frank needs it but I'll back him on the Orc/Beast story.

This info is patched together from the Dave D thread on the PDGA forums.

Dave D made the Beast in December of 2002. It was the awesomest disc ever. Then the Orc came out in January of 2004. It was supposed to be more overstable than it turned out to be but it was still the awesomest thing ever... for 2004. Even more awesome than the Beast. The only problem was that it was very similar to the Beast. So Dave D elled the wing of Beast a little bit to make it less overstable and to justify keeping both molds in the Innova stable. The Orc was hot stuff and Dave D didn't want to modify his hottest seller and leave the Beast unscathed. And Dave D worked on "fixing" the Orc and came up with the Wraith in August of 2005. I think Dave's "misfire" with the Orc was rectified by the Wraith.

Coincidentally, the Wraith wing is 0.1cm wider than the Orc. So even if there was significant overlap he could more easily justify keeping a "speed 10" disc and a "speed 11" disc even if they had the same flight numbers.

garublador
10-26-2010, 10:00 AM
The Orc is not the old mold Beast.

The Orc turned out to be very close to the old mold Beast, so Innova retooled the Beast. Bad move? I think so. To me it would have made more sense to retool the new Orc into something more stable than to turn the established Beast into something less stable, but Dave D didn't call and ask me what I thought.I agree with that. Now the new Beast is similar to the Sidewinder, which IMO isn't a good mold at all. I think the biggest logical problem I have with it is that the old mold Beast was awesome in DX plastic and the Orc sucks in DX plastic. I have always thought Champ Orcs and Beasts were both good, but not great but the DX Beast was pretty much perfect for rotating and got really good and longer as it wore in.

I suppose I understand that the Orc outsold the Beast so it made more sense to keep it around, but I think their lineup would be better had they done it my way. ;)

gkeberhart
10-26-2010, 10:25 AM
I am with Three Putt and garublador, the old mold beast IMO was/is better than the new Beast and Orc. People always say that the Orc is easy distance but the Old Mold Beast was much easier distance. It was effortlessly straight and long; that being said from a commercial stand point retooling the beast was a more economically sound decision. in business money talks

Frank Delicious
10-26-2010, 11:46 AM
oh, look, everyone confirmed I was right.

*smug as hell look*

Three Putt
10-26-2010, 12:28 PM
I suppose I understand that the Orc outsold the Beast so it made more sense to keep it around, but I think their lineup would be better had they done it my way. ;)The Orc was probably outselling the Beast at that point, but the Beast was a few years old at that point and the Orc was the Soup of the Day. You would think a company like Innova would have understood that someday neither of these discs would be the newest/fastest/longest/bestest driver and make a decision based on what was the best disc. IMO that disc was the old mold Beast. So I see what you are saying, but I'm not as understanding of the decision. I just think they got it wrong.

DSmith
10-26-2010, 12:59 PM
and guess which version of the Beast Barry throws.......

DSmith
10-26-2010, 01:21 PM
Also as far as the Roc molds being confusing, it's stamped on the bottom of the disc what mold it is. :doh:

Hmmm what else....

Wraiths;
They were retooled then retooled back when the Champ version was released due to differences in stability between the plastics.
This also coincided with the Teerex retooling (broken mold). So in order to get 2 completely different molds they tweaked the molds for a few pressings which is where the Wraith X and Teerex X molds came from.
Teerex;
The first Teerex retooling flew too similar to the Wraith at the time. (this is the mold that about killed the Teerex) So they made the Teerex X (which also flew nothing like the original) The first pressing of the DX Teerex's were the X Mold and these were actually money but are the hardest to find now as they were Tournament stamped. After that they pretty much sucked.
As far as I know they got the current mold back to what the First/Proto mold was but by the time they did this it was too little too late due to the Destroyer coming out.

So to add to your list
Wraith X's
Teerex X's

PanicKJ
10-26-2010, 01:58 PM
The 11x is the beefier Firebird mold. It just has to do with the plastic, the way it cools and sets primarily. Dave Dunipace has said recently in the "Ask Dave Dunipace" thread on the PDGA boards that the current runs of Firebirds are back to being a lot beefier and flatter more similar to the 11x, due to a better run of plastic. He is unsure, however, of when they will be making it to various retailers, so there may be future issues of distinguishing between the new beefier and less beefy Firebirds.

I picked up a Super Flat 12x firebird at the usdgc pro shop. If I put it side be side with my 11x you can not tell a differance. It was pearly blue and slightly gummy and I only had to pay 13 bucks!

Also with the Rhyno's
There are
Rancho's
San Marino's
and Ontario's

Don't really know what the differance is, but I have seen all three.

elnino
10-26-2010, 03:19 PM
First the Bad---correct me at anytime and i'll update the list at the top with info
Valkyrie-i didn't know but the early ones might have been VK and now they are L molded or VL
Eagle X and L but no way to tell from stamps
Boss pro/r pro different mold than champ star xg
Roc R plus, ontario, SM, Rancho, 11x, 10x, 8x
Beast old mold new mold
Aviar way too many molds/types to have the same name
Firebirds- okay the plastic made the disc mold up different but now the tooling on the firebirds(ie asian opens are different) www.com now
Starfire- i think pro starfires made a big fu nad went L mold
Teerex- so this has several molds, tooling all the same but mold different X is current mold.
teebird-With what we currently know as the TeeBird, you have two different wings (that I don't think are truly different aside from the tooling), the 'I'nnova CA tooled (11X KC Pro, later 11X, and 12X) and the 'l'nnova CAL (CE, 9 & 10X KC Pro, and early 11X). TLs also have this wing tooling variation, but I'm not sure what runs comprised each wing. There is also the TeeBird+ which unfortunately is part of the same family despite being completely different as well.
FL see firebird or pro firebird newer ones are fl
SL see starfire the pro change
TL see teebird, CE teebirds are tls sometimes
Whippet has X mold too right?
teebird plus groan!
Rhyno Rancho's, San Marino's, and Ontario's but the mold didn't change.
Gator with and without bead right
Classic Roc it is named roc so confusing to people
Monster There is a monster x and l.
Gazelle
Cheetah
Cobra
Stingray
Sidewinder appears the star champs changed with spacer added to copy LS
Coyote- old mold and new mold
gremlins but theyre cfr and only in star plastic maybe Dx no beads too.
Viper...the DX Viper is the normal mold, but the CFR (Champion) Viper is an X-mold. The wing is thicker at the very edge.
Wraith and the wraithX assume they are augusta wraiths
The good molds-one name one mold
xcaliber
Destroyer molds up different but
Groove hahahaha
Katana
Monarch
Orc
Max
Viking
Rdrunner
Archangel...is there another mold of this
Dragon
Banshee
Leopard
Spider
Cro
Skeeter
Mako
Panther
Kite
Shark
Pig
Hydra
Aero
Dart- retooled goblin but they changed the name so it is okay.

elnino
10-26-2010, 03:21 PM
I'm trying to get good info here. I'm working on figuring out Rocs first and then i'll tackle the beast questions and try to find out teebirds too.

thanks everyone for the input.

Frank Delicious
10-26-2010, 03:34 PM
Wraith and the wraithX assume they are augusta wraiths.

Don't assume, it's not good.

DSmith
10-26-2010, 03:57 PM
Classic Rocs were the first "Roc"

Totally different mold than the "Roc"

Don't understand why they used the "Classic" moniker when they could have just come up with a different name for what became the Roc.

There's also Classic Cobra (The Ontario mold) and the Classic Aviar or Brick Aviar(has the bead on the rim).

As far as Rocs go the difference is the stability out of the box.
From most stable to least;
Rancho-San Marino-Ontario

The abridged history was that the first mold was pressed at their San Marino plant. That mold broke or something similar. As an attempt to recreate the mold at their New Ontario plant the Ontario Rocs were born (less stable than the original). In order to fix it once again, at the Rancho Cucamonga plant they made the disc more stable. Until recently there was no more "San Marino" mold as it was broken until they did another retooling which became a "Neo-San Marino" mold.
I believe most of that story is correct. I'm sure a Roc purest will jump on here and correct me.
Also I'm not really sure about any retooling on the KC Pro's. I think any differences are mainly plastic types which accounts for slight variations between Kenny's World's wins (9x,10x,11x,12x) As far as I have seen the 12x's are a bit domier which makes them a touch less straight than 11x's.

Frank Delicious
10-26-2010, 04:01 PM
Also instead of a random post with no formatting to it, this should be on a website or a doc somewhere.

DSmith
10-26-2010, 04:09 PM
Don't assume, it's not good.

Augusta and Highbridge Wraiths are not Wraith X's. They are just 1st run Champ Wraiths before the tweaking for the production run (another reason they go for so much on ebay etc.). I think the Wraith X's were mostly test runs I don't remember them being used for CFR's except the DGV west coast tournaments. This was about the time a bunch of us raised a stink about test runs only being available for CFR to Innova West and those that had to order through Innova East got the shaft and had to wait a month or 2 on new releases.
Of course now we can order from either. :thmbup:

bdodson
10-26-2010, 04:14 PM
Monster x - Champion (new monsters)
Monster L - star plastic
Monster - old pearly champion plastic, stability between the L and X mold

agent_peebody
10-26-2010, 04:16 PM
^i have a pearly X and a pearl L.

DSmith
10-26-2010, 04:26 PM
Monsters

I'm probably the only one who still throws them.

Pro Line was the first mold then Champion. Both were the "Pearly Plastic".
Pro Line was their first run at Champion plastic after CE plastic. The pearlyness came from a weight additive to make up for mass to get the discs up to weight in that plastic. Which is why they are grippier. That and I'm sure Innova thought they looked cool. All of the Champion plastic during this time was either in this plastic or the gummy non pearl plastic. (@2003-2005)

Not sure but I think both the Pro Line and the Champion Line were the same mold. Then for some oddball reasoning Innova decided to retool it to make it less HSS in order to give it more distance (@2007?). Maybe they thought it would increase sales. After alot of bitching about the new "L" mold they went back to pressing it in the current or old "X" mold.

Of course its in the current champ plastic which just ain't as good as the Pearly stuff.

DSmith
10-26-2010, 04:30 PM
Also instead of a random post with no formatting to it, this should be on a website or a doc somewhere.


Or just sticky the thread.

Three Putt
10-26-2010, 04:34 PM
Classic Rocs were the first "Roc"

Totally different mold than the "Roc"

Don't understand why they used the "Classic" moniker when they could have just come up with a different name for what became the Roc.

There's also Classic Cobra (The Ontario mold) and the Classic Aviar or Brick Aviar(has the bead on the rim).

As far as Rocs go the difference is the stability out of the box.
From most stable to least;
Rancho-San Marino-Ontario

The abridged history was that the first mold was pressed at their San Marino plant. That mold broke or something similar. As an attempt to recreate the mold at their New Ontario plant the Ontario Rocs were born (less stable than the original). In order to fix it once again, at the Rancho Cucamonga plant they made the disc more stable. Until recently there was no more "San Marino" mold as it was broken until they did another retooling which became a "Neo-San Marino" mold.
I believe most of that story is correct. I'm sure a Roc purest will jump on here and correct me.
Also I'm not really sure about any retooling on the KC Pro's. I think any differences are mainly plastic types which accounts for slight variations between Kenny's World's wins (9x,10x,11x,12x) As far as I have seen the 12x's are a bit domier which makes them a touch less straight than 11x's.There is a lot of information in this post that is just wrong.

The Classic Cobra came out in '95-'96 when the Ontario mold was the Cobra. The Classic Cobra was the original Cobra mold that used the Stingray top and had San Marino tooling. The disc that was the Classic Cobra is just the Cobra again as they have stopped using the Ontario mold and gone back to the original mold. The Ontario mold was never the Classic Cobra.

I have no idea what you are talking about with the Classic Aviars. There are still Aviars with a bead. Classic Aviars are just whatever they put the old grid stamp on; I've seen small bead and beadless Classic Aviars.

There was no San Marino Innova plant; they outsourced the injection molding in the early days. They had a P. O. Box in San Marino, that was about it. The first Innova plant was the Ontario plant.

Probably because they outsourced and had no real control over the conditions their molds were used in, a lot of the early Innova molds wore out. The San Marino Roc mold was never broken, it just wore out and started making deformed, unusable discs.

I'm pretty sure if we keep going with this stuff we will come up with a lot more information that is just plain old wrong.

bdodson
10-26-2010, 04:44 PM
My next post was going to be about GUMMY plastic which DSMITH mentioned. The GUMMY discs, which i believe you are correct DSMITH about them being from 2003-2005. I am not sure they will qualify as different molds but the plastic is frickin sweet. My dad threw a gummy beast for a long time and I prefer gummy monsters to champ and star and the old pro line/pearly stuff. The pro line flies most similar to the GUMMY but it gets beat up where the GUMMY is indestructible.

To the best of my knowledge the following 2003-2005 molds could be found in gummy plastic:

Monster
Beast
Valkyrie
Leopard
150 Class Teebird
Viking
Orc (very light weights)
Spiders
Arcangels
150 class sidewinder
Rhyno.

Obviously they put out some gummy rocs and katanas since then and the XG (extra grippy) bosses are close, but not the same.

Many people think the soft pearly runs of discs are gummy, and i would disagree


DSMITH: i obviously still throw the monster and would love to find more gummy plastic

Frank Delicious
10-26-2010, 05:06 PM
I'm pretty sure if we keep going with this stuff we will come up with a lot more information that is just plain old wrong.

This is so true.

Technohic
10-26-2010, 05:14 PM
This thread doesnt make any sense to me at all. Theres a lot of conflicting info being put off as fact.

I think I will just live with discs as they are now and updated flight charts. Not like you can go back and change anything anyway.

Three Putt
10-26-2010, 05:18 PM
This is so true.If Dave Dunipace or even somebody like Mark Molner wanted to do a write up on this, it would be worth it. Otherwise it's a bunch of "I heard" rumors that we really don't know for sure.

I heard and repeated the "broke the San Marino Roc mold moving into the Ontario plant" story a bunch of times until I stopped and thought about it one day a realized that the Ontario tooling discs started showing up in '89-'90ish and they made San Marino Rocs until about '94. That right there clued me in that the story made no sense and maybe I had no idea what I was talking about. Brian Mace said on a USDGC broadcast a few years ago that Dave D told him the mold just wore out from years of shooting hot plastic into it. That is the version I tend to believe now, but I don't know if that is true either. It's just something I heard Maceman say one day.

Pretty much I've come to believe that I don't know 1/2 of what I think I know, and what I think I know is just a tiny fraction of what really goes on. I don't work there, so I don't really know.

Frank Delicious
10-26-2010, 05:20 PM
Brian Mace said on a USDGC broadcast a few years ago that Dave D told him the mold just wore out from years of shooting hot plastic into it. That is the version I tend to believe now, but I don't know if that is true either.

This seems truer anyway since Innova has to get other molds remade sometimes because they wear out*.

*see the big deal with CAL and CA tooled teebirds now.

elnino
10-26-2010, 11:48 PM
i am trying to talk to Innova directly to find out the info.

seems like alot of the info is correct also seems like molds do get old and when they are remade they have different tooling but are the same disc.

I think this thread really just points out some:
Real love of certain molds
Real love of certain plastic
Real love of pearly discs(rolleyes)
QC issues are actually very rare for Innova
Name issues
Tweaking mold without renaming(this here was my goal in the beginning)

so i will contact the makers and ask for this info. maybe we can get the correct info from them. They do seem willing to help solve this confusion so this will make everybody super happy.

NateDiscFlip
10-26-2010, 11:58 PM
I advocate for the Thick Edged Champion FrankenValk's...better mold, as it is still the valkyrie, but holds up to a more aggressive thrower.

Frank Delicious
10-27-2010, 12:29 AM
QC issues are actually very rare for Innova

lol, what?

NateDiscFlip
10-27-2010, 12:35 AM
Valk did change when the viking came out. It went from being labeled as a VK to a VL and the wing changed as well. I strongly believe the old valk is what the viking is now and maybe they had an "L" version that became the new valk.

Totally true Bill. Just checked, and the VL is what's on my disc. Love 'em. Truly a goto disc if you like fast, str8, and understable/ with added stability for bigger arms or more aggressive str8 shots.

Frank Delicious
10-27-2010, 12:42 AM
Truly a goto disc if you like fast, str8, and understable/ with added stability for bigger arms or more aggressive str8 shots.

This sentence literally makes no sense and contradicts itself.

Maybe I am just misunderstanding you, I mean you did type "str8" a couple of times and I'm not down with the Sk8 Boi talk. What disc are you talking about?

The dude on the bike
10-27-2010, 12:49 AM
Maybe he's a baller.

Bubbajoe
10-27-2010, 09:39 AM
This seems as good a place as any to bring this up. Concening DX Gators, has there been any changes made to the top recently? Compare the two in the photo below:
8095
Notice how square the top of the wing (or sholder I call it) is compaired to the one on the left. It's essentially the same shape as the star gators I've held.
Does any one know if this is the result of a mold change? or just how one run came out for what ever reason.

sorry for the photo quality. My iphone is the only digital camera I own.

Thanks in advance for the help!

elnino
09-24-2011, 03:06 PM
i'm updating this anyhow
First the Bad---correct me at anytime and i'll update the list at the top with info
Valkyrie-i didn't know but the early ones might have been VK and now they are L molded or VL
Eagle X and L but no way to tell from stamps
Boss pro/r pro different mold than champ star xg
Roc R plus, ontario, SM, Rancho, 11x, 10x, 8x
Beast old mold new mold
Aviar way too many molds/types to have the same name
Firebirds- okay the plastic made the disc mold up different but now the tooling on the firebirds(ie asian opens are different) www.com now
Starfire- i think pro starfires made a big fu nad went L mold
Teerex- so this has several molds, tooling all the same but mold different X is current mold.
teebird-With what we currently know as the TeeBird, you have two different wings (that I don't think are truly different aside from the tooling), the 'I'nnova CA tooled (11X KC Pro, later 11X, and 12X) and the 'l'nnova CAL (CE, 9 & 10X KC Pro, and early 11X). TLs also have this wing tooling variation, but I'm not sure what runs comprised each wing. There is also the TeeBird+ which unfortunately is part of the same family despite being completely different as well.
FL see firebird or pro firebird newer ones are fl
SL see starfire the pro change
TL see teebird, CE teebirds are tls sometimes
Whippet has X mold too right?
teebird plus groan!
Rhyno Rancho's, San Marino's, and Ontario's but the mold didn't change.
Gator with and without bead right
Classic Roc it is named roc so confusing to people
Monster There is a monster x and l.
Gazelle
Cheetah
Cobra
Stingray
Sidewinder appears the star champs changed with spacer added to copy LS
Coyote- old mold and new mold
gremlins but theyre cfr and only in star plastic maybe Dx no beads too.
Viper...the DX Viper is the normal mold, but the CFR (Champion) Viper is an X-mold. The wing is thicker at the very edge.
Wraith and the wraithX assume they are augusta wraiths
Destroyer NEW TO THE LIST!!!!


The good molds-one name one mold
xcaliber
Groove hahahaha
Katana
Monarch
Orc
Max
Viking
Rdrunner
Archangel...is there another mold of this
Dragon
Banshee
Leopard
Spider
Cro
Skeeter
Mako
Panther
Kite
Shark
Pig
Hydra
Aero
Dart- retooled goblin but they changed the name so it is okay.

LeewayeDiscGolf
09-24-2011, 06:54 PM
There are Valks in plus molds.

nickc
09-25-2011, 01:34 AM
My friend swears his Star TL Distance driver that he bought new is better than my Star TL Fairway Driver. I tell him it's just a misprint, but god forbid...

I think that's a little bizarre, but that's the only weird Innova mistake I've seen for myself.

DESTRO
09-25-2011, 03:53 AM
(I nominate this thread for best concept and best thread ever)

A few questions re Innova

With the different plastics does Innova tinker with the mold to attempt to keep the flight characteristics or does the plastic cool differently and cause variations in the mold...I just tend to notice subtle differences in molds across plastics.

The 11x firebird is not as beefy as the 12 x? Is there a way to flatten a 12x firebird?

c'mon opti... quit stallin' and start the official innova disillusionment thread.

you've got peeps chompin' at the bits to start dumpin' on the king of the hill...

elnino
02-26-2012, 09:58 PM
Necrobump this because of glow gators!!!

First the Bad---correct me at anytime and i'll update the list at the top with info
Valkyrie-i didn't know but the early ones might have been VK and now they are L molded or VL
Eagle X and L but no way to tell from stamps
Boss pro/r pro different mold than champ star xg
Roc R plus, ontario, SM, Rancho, 11x, 10x, 8x
Beast old mold new mold
Aviar way too many molds/types to have the same name
Firebirds- okay the plastic made the disc mold up different but now the tooling on the firebirds(ie asian opens are different) www.com now
Starfire- i think pro starfires made a big fu nad went L mold
Teerex- so this has several molds, tooling all the same but mold different X is current mold.
teebird-With what we currently know as the TeeBird, you have two different wings (that I don't think are truly different aside from the tooling), the 'I'nnova CA tooled (11X KC Pro, later 11X, and 12X) and the 'l'nnova CAL (CE, 9 & 10X KC Pro, and early 11X). TLs also have this wing tooling variation, but I'm not sure what runs comprised each wing. There is also the TeeBird+ which unfortunately is part of the same family despite being completely different as well.
FL see firebird or pro firebird newer ones are fl
SL see starfire the pro change
TL see teebird, CE teebirds are tls sometimes
Whippet has X mold too right?
teebird plus groan!
Rhyno Rancho's, San Marino's, and Ontario's but the mold didn't change.
Gator with and without bead right
Classic Roc it is named roc so confusing to people
Monster There is a monster x and l.
Gazelle
Cheetah
Cobra
Stingray
Sidewinder appears the star champs changed with spacer added to copy LS
Coyote- old mold and new mold
gremlins but theyre cfr and only in star plastic maybe Dx no beads too.
Viper...the DX Viper is the normal mold, but the CFR (Champion) Viper is an X-mold. The wing is thicker at the very edge.
Wraith and the wraithX assume they are augusta wraiths
The good molds-one name one mold
xcaliber
Destroyer molds up different but
Groove hahahaha
Katana
Monarch
Orc
Max
Viking
Rdrunner
Archangel...is there another mold of this
Dragon
Banshee
Leopard
Spider
Cro
Skeeter
Mako
Panther
Kite
Shark
Pig
Hydra
Aero
Dart- retooled goblin but they changed the name so it is okay.

DiscJunkie
02-26-2012, 10:34 PM
Necrobump this because of glow gators!!!

First the Bad---correct me at anytime and i'll update the list at the top with info
Valkyrie-i didn't know but the early ones might have been VK and now they are L molded or VL
Eagle X and L but no way to tell from stamps Different mold from the original Eagle - first beveled disc
Boss pro/r pro different mold than champ star xg
Roc R plus, ontario, SM, Rancho, 11x, 10x, 8x
Beast old mold new mold
Aviar way too many molds/types to have the same name
Firebirds- okay the plastic made the disc mold up different but now the tooling on the firebirds(ie asian opens are different) www.com now
Starfire- i think pro starfires made a big fu nad went L mold
Starfire, SL's and Pros in L mold, Stars and Champs in X mold
Teerex- so this has several molds, tooling all the same but mold different X is current mold.
teebird-With what we currently know as the TeeBird, you have two different wings (that I don't think are truly different aside from the tooling), the 'I'nnova CA tooled (11X KC Pro, later 11X, and 12X) and the 'l'nnova CAL (CE, 9 & 10X KC Pro, and early 11X). TLs also have this wing tooling variation, but I'm not sure what runs comprised each wing. There is also the TeeBird+ which unfortunately is part of the same family despite being completely different as well.
FL see firebird or pro firebird newer ones are fl
SL see starfire the pro change
TL see teebird, CE teebirds are tls sometimes
Whippet has X mold too right?Yes
teebird plus groan!
Rhyno Rancho's, San Marino's, and Ontario's but the mold didn't change.
Gator with and without bead right
Classic Roc it is named roc so confusing to people
Monster There is a monster x and l.
Gazelle
Cheetah, I have seen three distinct toolings; Old CAL + Patent#, new CAL + WWW, and CA + WWW
Cobra, Old mold "Classic" Cobras re-issued in Star only, but there are two distinct Cobra molds - old and new
Stingray, These have three molds, San Marino, Ontario and WWW - long story
Sidewinder appears the star champs changed with spacer added to copy LS
Coyote- old mold and new mold
gremlins but theyre cfr and only in star plastic maybe Dx no beads too.
Viper...the DX Viper is the normal mold, but the CFR (Champion) Viper is an X-mold. The wing is thicker at the very edge.
Wraith and the wraithX assume they are augusta wraiths
The good molds-one name one mold
xcaliber
Destroyer molds up different but
Groove hahahaha
Katana
Monarch
Orc
Max
Viking
Rdrunner
Archangel...is there another mold of this
Dragon
Banshee
Leopard
Spider
Cro
Skeeter
Mako
Panther
Kite
Shark
Pig
Hydra
Aero, I believe that this was the original Eagle mold - first beveled disc
Dart- retooled goblin but they changed the name so it is okay.

Some additions FWIW

elnino
02-26-2012, 10:40 PM
yeah i also heard the 2003 starfires are called the starfire old mold....as in there are three of them.

First the Bad---correct me at anytime and i'll update the list at the top with info
Valkyrie-i didn't know but the early ones might have been VK and now they are L molded or VL
Eagle X and L but no way to tell from stamps Different mold from the original Eagle - first beveled disc
Boss pro/r pro different mold than champ star xg
Roc R plus, ontario, SM, Rancho, 11x, 10x, 8x
Beast old mold new mold
Aviar way too many molds/types to have the same name
Firebirds- okay the plastic made the disc mold up different but now the tooling on the firebirds(ie asian opens are different) www.com now
Starfire- i think pro starfires made a big fu nad went L mold
Starfire, SL's and Pros in L mold, Stars and Champs in X mold
Teerex- so this has several molds, tooling all the same but mold different X is current mold.
teebird-With what we currently know as the TeeBird, you have two different wings (that I don't think are truly different aside from the tooling), the 'I'nnova CA tooled (11X KC Pro, later 11X, and 12X) and the 'l'nnova CAL (CE, 9 & 10X KC Pro, and early 11X). TLs also have this wing tooling variation, but I'm not sure what runs comprised each wing. There is also the TeeBird+ which unfortunately is part of the same family despite being completely different as well.
FL see firebird or pro firebird newer ones are fl
SL see starfire the pro change
TL see teebird, CE teebirds are tls sometimes
Whippet has X mold too right?Yes
teebird plus groan!
Rhyno Rancho's, San Marino's, and Ontario's but the mold didn't change.
Gator with and without bead right
Classic Roc it is named roc so confusing to people
Monster There is a monster x and l.
Gazelle
Cheetah, I have seen three distinct toolings; Old CAL + Patent#, new CAL + WWW, and CA + WWW
Cobra, Old mold "Classic" Cobras re-issued in Star only, but there are two distinct Cobra molds - old and new
Stingray, These have three molds, San Marino, Ontario and WWW - long story
Sidewinder appears the star champs changed with spacer added to copy LS
Coyote- old mold and new mold
gremlins but theyre cfr and only in star plastic maybe Dx no beads too.
Viper...the DX Viper is the normal mold, but the CFR (Champion) Viper is an X-mold. The wing is thicker at the very edge.
Wraith and the wraithX assume they are augusta wraiths
The good molds-one name one mold
xcaliber
Destroyer molds up different but
Groove hahahaha
Katana
Monarch
Orc
Max
Viking
Rdrunner
Archangel...is there another mold of this
Dragon
Banshee
Leopard
Spider
Cro
Skeeter
Mako
Panther
Kite
Shark
Pig
Hydra
Aero, I believe that this was the original Eagle mold - first beveled disc
Dart- retooled goblin but they changed the name so it is okay.

prerube
02-26-2012, 10:59 PM
the dart is the gremlin, just renamed

I was told it was a goblin, not gremlin, but you are the new Marshall Street expert.

WOW I was late to the game here..ooops

codyroberts18
02-26-2012, 11:08 PM
I thought Goblin too...

Plankeye
02-26-2012, 11:39 PM
the dart is the goblin

`cjc
02-26-2012, 11:44 PM
There is a monster x and l.

..yep

elnino
02-27-2012, 04:33 PM
so any dart throwers throw goblins too? i'm just thinking this might be two different discs that are just a copy....

since innova changed the name it is kinda okay for it since you would know what you are getting even if the dart was 100 percent the same as a goblin they are just copies not mislabled.

dazedconfuzed1
02-27-2012, 08:35 PM
I have two DX Viper-X's.
Classic Roc has a couple of different molds.
Might have been posted..Valkyrie+,VK,VL
Wraith, Wraith-X

elnino
02-08-2014, 07:39 PM
necro bump!!!

i just heard they changed the sidewinder to plus mold!!!

tylernale
02-08-2014, 08:00 PM
I do believe that the pole cat is now the star destroyer correct me if I'm worng.

elmexdela
02-08-2014, 08:05 PM
sidewinder indeed has slanted rims. there is a thread about it somewhere. im at work and cant copypastas but it shouldnt be too hard to find

ndole
02-09-2014, 02:52 PM
The max mold has been changed.

kyledstauffer
02-09-2014, 05:34 PM
I'm not sure darts are goblins...I love goblins been throwing em for years.

chambers
02-10-2014, 09:37 AM
necro bump!!!

i just heard they changed the sidewinder to plus mold!!!


Ugh. Just recently, or have they been doing this for a while? All plastic types?

Dang it, now I have to go down to my disc stash check the Sidewinders I bought a few months ago...


________________________

elmexdela
02-10-2014, 12:11 PM
Ugh. Just recently, or have they been doing this for a while? All plastic types?

Dang it, now I have to go down to my disc stash check the Sidewinders I bought a few months ago...


________________________

been a decent while. i have 5 new ones and only one is the regular rimmed one.

i also have a disc marked SW that is a speed 10+ disc. im currently talking to their customer service about it but they stopped responding. :thmbdown: and i was talking to two different people

blackcatsmith
02-10-2014, 01:06 PM
Holy Moses INNOVA has a lot of molds! Does anyone own one of every mold put out by INNOVA? How many discs would that even be?

mf100forever
02-11-2014, 06:19 AM
Holy Moses INNOVA has a lot of molds! Does anyone own one of every mold put out by INNOVA? How many discs would that even be?

In the PDGA list there are 111 different molds listed. But looking at all the main molds and mold variations existing (For ex plus molds, Ontario, Rancho, San M) it should be close 200?

BirdieMachine
02-11-2014, 09:16 AM
Has it been confirmed that there's more than the TB and TL? I know the engraving has changed but did the mold shape change or did they just replace part of it with a newer piece that has different engraving but the same shape?

The Brinster mold is different and more stable. Not sure if anyone covered this but I don't feel like reading.

kevdiv48
02-11-2014, 11:39 AM
FWIW discgolfsweden has a lot of this information covered.
Enjoy (http://discgolfsweden.se/discar/discar_sokres_eng.aspx?Purpose=-1&Manufacturer=Innova/%20Champion&DiscLine=-1&Type=-1).