Who Has Ruined Concrete Tee Pads?

[esdubya]

Has anyone used the 'wrong' kind of salt and had a teepad crack or erode because of it?

After doing some research it appears that ANY type of salt (Sodium, Calcium, Potassium, Magnesium) should be OK to use IF (and in DG this is a big IF) the concrete was installed correctly. Installed correctly meaning it was formulated, mixed, installed and finished correctly (no air bubbles) and given the proper time to cure before a thaw/freeze cycle.

So who has damaged a tee pad from salt? How do I know if the teepads at my course were installed correctly. Should I pay for the 'safe' salt even though it costs about 3 times as much as the regular?

[esdubya]

I just re-read my original post and I should probably add this clarification. The salting would be done to help eliminate snow and ice buildup for winter golf..

[craigg]

Yes

Virtually any kind of salt will corrode concrete if it's left there and not thoroughly washed off. (Think what happens to the precast sound walls along the highway)

The end result is that the teepads end up losing whatever rough texture you might have put on them, making them very slippery when wet.

Avoid using salt at all costs!! Use sand or kitty litter, or whatever - but never use salt on concrete.

The original teepads at Seneca Creek were ruined by using salt in the winter time. Want to play winter golf? Get out there with some muscle right after the storm and get them cleared off. Then throw down a bit of sand and call it a day.

[esdubya]

Thanks for the feedback Craig. Unfortunately we have people play off the pads before we can get out and clear them off. The footprints compact the snow, turn to ice and make it almost impossible to shovel off the pads without some kind of chemical aid. Things are in pretty bad shape right now in Ann Arbor with the recent storm. About a foot of warm wet snow fell then the temperature dropped to the single digits.

[craigg]

Sand is still a better alternative and actually will help break up the compacted snow/ice in an unexpected way. If you get playground sand - the fact that it is a little brown helps retain heat from the sun and helps create little pits in the compacted snow, making it easier to remove.

I know you gotts do what you gotta do - but salt will have a significant negative impact on the life of your tee pads.

[Jukeshoe]

Like Craig said, DON'T USE SALT!!!!

Sounds like you already try and get out there and shovel before others compact the snow (good for you!! :thmbup:), but if shoveling doesn't do the trick, sand works pretty well. The other option is just taking casual relief and throwing to the side of the pads (if they are really icy).

[1Roy]

I heard salt was ok after several years of curing.

[Jukeshoe]

I heard salt was ok after several years of curing.

Why risk it?

[1Roy]

Why risk it?

To prevent broken limbs? I dont know, I'm just repeating what I was told.

Here's an intersting study. http://www.ctre.iastate.edu/pubs/semisesq/session1/cody/index.htm

[Jukeshoe]

To prevent broken limbs? I dont know, I'm just repeating what I was told.

Here's an intersting study. http://www.ctre.iastate.edu/pubs/semisesq/session1/cody/index.htm

No, no, I understand why you'd want to salt. My feeling is, unless you have the explicit permission of the park department (or whoever is the owner of the course) you shouldn't engage in an activity (spreading salt) that may or may not damage the tee pads.

If you think that it's okay to spread salt, but are unsure, you run the risk ruining the teepads, and that's just not cool. ;)

[Spatula Cornroll]

Like it has already been said, step off to the side of the tee pad. Do you think a PDGA official is going to come out of the woods and make you take a stroke?

[Jukeshoe]

Like it has already been said, step off to the side of the tee pad. Do you think a PDGA official is going to come out of the woods and make you take a stroke?

They're lurking everywhere. :|

[elevated plastic]

We get a lot of snow in Tahoe and when the time comes to shovel the tees I just pour dirt(if there is any exposed) and pine needles on the tee and let nature do the work. The store bought ice melt(usually blue or pink) doesn't harm concrete.

[DGtourist]

Like it has already been said, step off to the side of the tee pad. Do you think a PDGA official is going to come out of the woods and make you take a stroke?

Hilarous.

If I know I'm gonna be there first, I'll bring a shovel.

[bhoov]

You can use calcium chloride pellets (most common brand name around here is qik joe), but do not use rock salt. And as previously mentioned, it depends on how the long the concrete has cured. Do not use ANYTHING if it is fresh concrete, which I would consider anything up to a year old. After a year, the calcium chloride pellets would be safe to use. I've used the stuff for years, works perfect and doesnt affect the concrete.

[Jukeshoe]

You can use calcium chloride pellets (most common brand name around here is qik joe), but do not use rock salt. And as previously mentioned, it depends on how the long the concrete has cured. Do not use ANYTHING if it is fresh concrete, which I would consider anything up to a year old. After a year, the calcium chloride pellets would be safe to use. I've used the stuff for years, works perfect and doesnt affect the concrete.

Do you guys use it on the concrete tees out at Rogers Lakewood?

[bhoov]

Do you guys use it on the concrete tees out at Rogers Lakewood?

No I've never used it on the tees out there. I can't remember if anything beyond a shovel was used last year, because unfortunately, calcium chloride pellets are expensive versus anything else, but if you need to clear concrete of ice and light snow, it does the job with awesome results.

To get an idea of cost, you can get 40-50lbs worth for probably $25 or so. In comparison sand or cheap rock salt is $25 for around 225-250lbs worth. Around this region anyway

[Spatula Cornroll]

What if you had a heating element embedded in the pad that ran off of a solar cell which would also be embedded in the pad???:wall:

[bhoov]

What if you had a heating element embedded in the pad that ran off of a solar cell which would also be embedded in the pad???:wall:

Believe it or not something like this actually exists. I don't remember exactly what its powered by but the concept is there.

[Troy Jan]

As a concrete professional, i will tell you the same thing i tell my customers "never use salt". Kitty litter , sand , calcium are better bets. IF you must use salt or salt is going to be tracked onto the pads , seal them on a warm day with concrete sealer every year to try and protect them.If you are sealing them i would definitely add a non slip additive like shark grip.All concrete tee pads poured outside should have air bubbles in the concrete(airentrained from the plant) for the freeze thaw cycle, another reason to use ready mix off a truck versus job site or self mixing.

[Jukeshoe]

As a concrete professional, i will tell you the same thing i tell my customers "never use salt". Kitty litter , sand , calcium are better bets. IF you must use salt or salt is going to be tracked onto the pads , seal them on a warm day with concrete sealer every year to try and protect them.If you are sealing them i would definitely add a non slip additive like shark grip.All concrete tee pads poured outside should have air bubbles in the concrete(airentrained from the plant) for the freeze thaw cycle, another reason to use ready mix off a truck versus job site or self mixing.

Thank you for the information! :thmbup:

[great white buffalo]

Believe it or not something like this actually exists. I don't remember exactly what its powered by but the concept is there.
Most convenience stores around here have forced hot water tubing inside the concrete walkways in front of their stores. Is this what you are thinking of?

[REDARMY]

Most convenience stores around here have forced hot water tubing inside the concrete walkways in front of their stores. Is this what you are thinking of?

feasible, but who's gonna crown the pads so the water has somewhere to go???

expensive, and not realistic on a park and rec budget.

[esdubya]

As a concrete professional, i will tell you the same thing i tell my customers "never use salt". Kitty litter , sand , calcium are better bets. IF you must use salt or salt is going to be tracked onto the pads , seal them on a warm day with concrete sealer every year to try and protect them.If you are sealing them i would definitely add a non slip additive like shark grip.All concrete tee pads poured outside should have air bubbles in the concrete(airentrained from the plant) for the freeze thaw cycle, another reason to use ready mix off a truck versus job site or self mixing.

Thanks for the info!! This is the kind of stuff I was hoping to hear by starting this thread. Most of the players around here (including me) don't know any better. Now I just want to get the word out locally so our course conditions will be optimal for the long term.

[esdubya]

feasible, but who's gonna crown the pads so the water has somewhere to go???


If you follow the DGA recommended guidelines for pads they should already have a crown..

http://www.discgolfassoc.com/installation/images/tee-pad-installation-profile.png

But yea, don't think ice on teepads is a big enough problem to justify the expense of an active heating system. Would be kind of cool though.

[discpicable]

I've had porch steps disintegrated by salt.

[HCD Studios]

Being a tour official I will give you one stroke for teeing from the side and 5 strokes for salt. Take your pic. I don't use salt I use and ice breaker. It looks like a big blade on a stick and it works great with no negative environmental impact.

[NothinButChing]

hope the salt isnt ruining the pads at the crick


buddy said he loved it but sure that was because he wasnt slipping and not thinking about the future of those pads...

[Jabanger]

Wow Es I figured you should know this answer living in Michigan with our roads lol. One of the problems with salt or any additive is that it causes the snow to melt which the water can then be absorbed into the ground and seams of the pad. As the temp drops and the salts gets washed away the water then turns to ice and starts to expand. As it expands it can cause the concrete to crack.

[esdubya]

Wow Es I figured you should know this answer living in Michigan with our roads lol. One of the problems with salt or any additive is that it causes the snow to melt which the water can then be absorbed into the ground and seams of the pad. As the temp drops and the salts gets washed away the water then turns to ice and starts to expand. As it expands it can cause the concrete to crack.

The roads suck here, yes, but I don't think that is an apples to apples comparison with disc golf pads.

I've heard conflicting things in my search for information on this topic. Still don't have a definitive yes or no to salting as it appears to depend highly on the quality of the mix and installation of the teepads. Since we (disc golfers) don't know the quality of the installation then is it best to err on safe side which is in general: "Don't salt unless absolutely necessary"

Here is an excerpt from interesting article I found on this topic. Full text here:
http://www.askthebuilder.com/251_Deicing_Salts_and_Concrete.shtml

"Deicing salts can cause severe damage to concrete that has not been formulated, mixed, installed and finished properly. That is a fact. The good news is that it is easy to install concrete
so that deicing salts can be used with confidence knowing that little or no damage will occur over the years. If you come to my city, I can show you city sidewalks and roadways that have had repeated treatments of deicing salts for years. These strong concrete surfaces have experienced none of the spalling or surface erosion that you have heard about.

The damage to concrete most people fear is actually caused by the freezing and thawing of water that soaks into the upper surface of the concrete. The use of deicing salts increases the amount of freeze-thaw cycles that a concrete sidewalk or driveway experiences. The volume of water increases by 9 percent when it freezes. This expansion creates internal pressures that can blast apart weak concrete. "

[Jabanger]

It's not apples to apples considering the type of traffic but the final paragraph in your statement just said the same thing I did. Water soaks in, freezes, expands, and cracks the concrete.

[bthoma1]

Michigan roads suck..oh yeah don't use ice :)

[Razor]

10-10-10 fertilizer is used on the concrete sidewalks were I work. I saw Maint. spreading it today on ice. semed to work Ok while walking on it and the fertilizer ends up washing down to the grass. win-win......or time will tell.

[CFH-mn]

10-10-10 fertilizer is illegal here!
it destroys lakes with algea n milfoil
land of 10,000 lakes and soon disc courses!