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View Full Version : Questions on hyzer-flip and flext shots

fireborne
04-05-2009, 03:17 PM
Okay, I'm trying to understand how to throw these shots, but have a few questions about the varied results I get. Hopefully you guys & gals will be able to help me out with these problems.

Hyzer-flip:
As I understand it, a hyzer-flip consists of throwing an understable disc with a hyzer angle to make the hyzer flight characteristics of the release fight the understable tendency the disc imparts.

Q: When throwing hyzer-flip, do you impart some OAT to make this happen? For example, do you hold & release the disc with a hyzer angle, but not use a hyzer angle pull back & follow through? (ie: hold the disc with some hyzer angle, reach straight back, pull straight through, and finish straight across.) Or do you hold, release and follow through with a hyzer angle with an understable disc?

Flex shots:
Again, as I understand it, a flex shot is using an overstable disc that is released with an anhyzer angle, which makes the overstable disc overpower the anhyzer flight path to come back and finish to the left (RHBH thrower).

Q: Essentially the same question as the hyzer-flip. Do you use OAT to perform this shot correctly? Or do you use a pure throw to make the disc anhyzer and just put enough power behind it so the flight is long enough to give the overstable disc enough time to overpower the anhyzer flight path?

I have read everything I can find about these topics, but I just need some clarification on which is the correct way to throw them. If someone could point me to a video which demonstrates these throws in detail, I would appreciate it. I have seen the distance competition video where the guy in yellow is obviously throwing a hyzer-flip, but you can't really see how he throws it. I have also seen the Discraft video where they are throwing flex shots towards the uphill hole as well. That video does help, but it doesn't show enough slow motion to be much help.

So, if someone could describe in detail how they throw their hyzer-flip shots and flex shots, I would be most grateful.

Thanks again guys & gals and I look forward to reading your replies!

skottyb
04-05-2009, 03:53 PM
all the hyzer flips I can throw require a really beat in disc.. kc pro teebirds & gazelles... so stable discs that are really understable due too there condition.. one of my favorite shots to throw..

zensuit
04-05-2009, 04:02 PM
Flex is my favorite shot. I throw either a Surge SS, which is pretty much in the middle of overstable or an Avenger and just snap it hard with Anny. It does a beautiful mini S and ends up pretty much in the middle.

As for Hyzer Flex, try throwing a mid like a Meteor. I release pretty much like I'm throwing straight but with plenty of snap and a Hyzer angle. get much more than mid-range distance with that shot!

Z

fireborne
04-05-2009, 06:53 PM
all the hyzer flips I can throw require a really beat in disc.. kc pro teebirds & gazelles... so stable discs that are really understable due too there condition.. one of my favorite shots to throw..

So if I understand you, using a naturally understable disc won't achieve the same flight path? It seems to me that an overstable disc that is beat enough to be understable would have a similar (though not exactly the same) flight path as an understable disc. Is this incorrect? Can you not throw a hyzer-flip with a rated understable disc? :confused:

fireborne
04-05-2009, 06:57 PM
Flex is my favorite shot. I throw either a Surge SS, which is pretty much in the middle of overstable or an Avenger and just snap it hard with Anny. It does a beautiful mini S and ends up pretty much in the middle.

But when you say you throw with anny, do you mean just an anhyzer angle, or with an anhyzer reach back, pull through and follow through?

As for Hyzer Flex, try throwing a mid like a Meteor. I release pretty much like I'm throwing straight but with plenty of snap and a Hyzer angle. get much more than mid-range distance with that shot!

Z

This is how I've been throwing my hyzer flip shots, just holding the disc at a hyzer angle and reaching back, pulling through and following through flat and straight. I never see the disc "flip up to flat" but instead it just seems to come out straight, and fade back out to the left. I don't know if I'm doing it right, or not putting enough power behind it. Which is why I'm asking these questions.

Anyone else care to comment on how they throw these shots, what you method is and how the disc flies from the beginning all the way through to the end? I'd love to be able to pull these shots out when I need them, but I guess I need to know how to throw them first! :p

Thanks again, and keep the answers coming!

Ryan P.
04-05-2009, 07:44 PM
to answer the original questions fireborne, i would say that you should never throw a shot with OAT. OAT kills distance like mongooses kill snakes. however, i have never seen an official answer to this question before. But from throwing both of these shots, I would say that you should throw a flex shot just like a regular anhyzer shot, but the disc's natural overstability will pull the flight path back to level, and then down to finish left (RHBH). and the same with a hyzer-flip. if you throw an understable disc just like a regular hyzer shot, then it should flip up totally by itself into a nice, straight (sometimes a beautifully S-curving) shot, without you throwing it any differently. if you have any more questions about it, just remember, OAT is bad. period.

zensuit
04-05-2009, 08:49 PM
This is how I've been throwing my hyzer flip shots, just holding the disc at a hyzer angle and reaching back, pulling through and following through flat and straight. I never see the disc "flip up to flat" but instead it just seems to come out straight, and fade back out to the left. I don't know if I'm doing it right, or not putting enough power behind it. Which is why I'm asking these questions.

It does take a lot of snap and works best on a lower speed disc like a Discraft Xpress

TalbotTrojan
04-05-2009, 09:19 PM
I would agree with those who have said that you should not throw these shots with OAT if you can help it. I just recently got a very overstable TeeRex and have really enjoyed learning the flex shot. As far as hyzer-flips go, everything I am doing is to get it out at the angle that I want. If you are having trouble getting the high speed turn probably means that you are not getting enough snap so I would try focusing on that. The Beato video is the best one that I have seen as far as that is concerned.

skottyb
04-05-2009, 09:57 PM
So if I understand you, using a naturally understable disc won't achieve the same flight path? It seems to me that an overstable disc that is beat enough to be understable would have a similar (though not exactly the same) flight path as an understable disc. Is this incorrect? Can you not throw a hyzer-flip with a rated understable disc? :confused:

Sure you can, you must have misunderstood me, I said that's how "I" throw a hyzer flip.. old beatup plastic.. you could do this with a beat up disc of or an understable disc... I just like too see the disc go from a straight hyzer, to flip up, and then go anhyzer... killer distance for me.. and nice for those controlled wooded shots that i can't reach with my forehand... hope that helps the confusion..

fireborne
04-06-2009, 01:23 AM
Thank you all for your input on this topic. It would seem that there isn't a general consensus about how to properly throw these shots, at least for the hyzer-flip.

The reason why I was asking if OAT had anything to do with the throw was because of the article Blake_T posted on www.discgolfreview.com under the articles section and topic of "Understanding Nose Angles and Trajectory" (http://www.discgolfreview.com/resources/articles/angles.shtml). He states that you would use wrist roll over or under, depending on the shot, to achieve the desired flight. It is my understanding that wrist roll over or under would be a form of OAT. Is this a correct definition of one of the forms of OAT? Does anyone here agree that is how the throw should be executed? It seems that Blake knows a hell of a lot about the different ways to throw, so I'm taking his word at face value.

I have tried to throw an understable disc (a beat champion road runner, which when new is a -3 stability disc) on a hyzer-flip, by just holding the disc at a hyzer angle and releasing and following through straight. It seems to fly straight for a pretty decent distance for my level (around 200-250') with a slight fade to the left at the end (RHBH throw). If I release it with a hyzer angle (have been experimenting with different angles) with a low to high release at an angle, not just throwing straight, it just seems to fly hyzer and depending on the height it will flip back to the right at the end.

Same thing with flex shots. If I just hold the disc at an anhyzer angle and release it flat/straight, it does what I've read what a flex shot should. Maybe I just don't have enough power to make these discs fly like they should. :confused:

But if anyone can confirm/deny what I've posted about Blake's method in the article above, I'd certainly appreciate any insight you could offer!

Again, thanks to all who have replied & hope to continue to learn more about these shots!

</novel> :rolleyes:

Ryan P.
04-06-2009, 02:03 AM
as far as what blake said, wrist roll doesn't necessarily create OAT. OAT does come from wrist roll, as well as other things, but wrist roll doesn't necessarily cause OAT. You can tell if you have OAT if the disc flutters as it leaves. i've thrown shots with wrist roll and no OAT (although they were pretty lucky).

zensuit
04-06-2009, 07:17 AM
The bad news is that you're correct, you don't have enough power yet.

The good news is that you will develop more power just by playing.

I agree with the above poster about OAT.

Z

craigg
04-06-2009, 08:57 AM
You may be able to achieve the hyzer flip using OAT, but it's not a good way to do it. If you are not getting your disc to perform as you think it should - it's probably not unstable enough. Hyzer flip, and flex shots both require a clean release to yield optimum results. The flight characteristic you seek is a function of what the disc will do given a clean throw w/the proper amount of spin. If your Roadrunner isn't finishing right, try releasing it with a little less hyzer - or find a disc that's a little more beat.
Whoever said OAT kills distance was right on. OAT forces a disc to spend it's initial flight time correcting itself - which means any success you get will be moderate, and uncontrolled. Both the hyzer flip and flex shots are all about controlling the natural flight characteristics of the disc.

garublador
04-06-2009, 11:47 AM
I wholeheartedly disagree with the idea that OAT should never be used. It's necessary for shaping shots. Blake is talking about purposely imparting OAT to get the disc to perform as desired. Wrist roll causes OAT.

Whether or not it should be used depends on the shot. What's bad is when you can't control how much OAT you impart. That happens when you try to throw discs that are too fast and/or overstable for you to throw straight with a clean throw, but try to force them to fly straight anyway.

I do agree that the Roadrunner is too fast of a disc. Stable putters, stable mids and a driver like a Polaris LS, DX Ace or DX Cheetah will give you better results, will be easier to control and will help you learn faster than a fast, understable disc like the Roadrunner.

FWIW, distance throwers will many times purposely impart OAT on their distance throws to guarantee they get the flight they want. Hyzer flip throws will have roll over to make sure the disc turns after the apex and anhyzer throws will have roll under to make sure the disc comes out of the turn. The little bit of power lost is much more than offset by the improved line.

dpennycuff
04-07-2009, 07:58 PM
Just like you, fireborne, I have not had much luck getting a Champion Roadrunner to perform a hyzer flip. The first thing I would like to tell you is that it takes a lot of power to perform a hyzer flip (as you get more power this will change), with a distance driver. My average drives are in the 320 foot range and I have to put a lot behind my disc to perform a hyzer flip. The second thing I want to tell you is that there are 3 shots you can perform from a hyzer flip.

The first type of hyzer flip is to take a disc that always turns right for you (i.e. a discraft meteor or xtreme, an innova monarch or roadrunner), and throw it normally but with the disc slightly tilted at a hyzer angle. The disc will fly straight for a long period of time before turning right. This is useful if your shot needs to make it through an alley way before heading to the right. I typically use a discraft meteor or innova leopard for these shots.

The second type of hyzer flip is to take a disc that likes to turn right when thrown really hard, and throw it normally but with more of a hyzer angle than the first type of shot. If done right, this will almost completely cancell out the "rightness" of the disc and give you a very straight shot, with either a slight drift to the left or right at the end. This is what is happening with your roadrunner when it goes very straight.

The third type of hyzer flip is to take a disc that likes to turn right when thrown really hard, and throw it like you would a sweeping hyzer shot (i.e. with a lot of hyzer angle and your arm releasing on an upward trajectory). This will cause the disc to come out heading to the left, then the "rightness" of the disc will cause it to bend straight, if not slightly to the right, before finally fading back to the left. The turning in the middle of the disc's flight allows the disc to stay in the air for a longer period of time, which translates into big distance. I use either a pro leopard or really beat in pro wraith for this shot, and I use it on a 340 foot dogleg left hole at one of the local courses, and I usually land within a 30 foot circle of the basket. Just be warned that this type of shot takes a lot of power and room to make it work.

If you really want to add the hyzer flip shot to your bag. I would go out and get a pro leopard, and just start experimenting with it. As long as you have the power to make your roadrunner go to the right, then you will be able to make the leopard go to the right. Because it is a slower disc it will be easier to "turn" it, so it lowers the power requirements for hyzer flip shots with it. Granted, it won't have the distance that a hyzer flip shot made with a faster driver would, but you have to work up to those discs. Once your drives start to go beyond the 300 foot mark, you will begin to appreciate discs like the leopard for those shorter shots that your drivers are just too long for. So, even if you move past the leopard as your hyzer flip disc, it will still be very usefull to you.

garublador
04-08-2009, 09:52 AM
The first type of hyzer flip is to take a disc that always turns right for you (i.e. a discraft meteor or xtreme, an innova monarch or roadrunner), You must have had one f'd up Xtreme. It's known as one of the most overstable molds ever.

zensuit
04-08-2009, 02:34 PM
You must have had one f'd up Xtreme. It's known as one of the most overstable molds ever.

Thanks for this. I was thinking the same thing!

dpennycuff
04-08-2009, 03:52 PM
The discraft Xtreme is rated as -1 stability on both the disc and discraft's webpage, which means that it is very understable. Which means that for me (a right hand back hand thrower), it tends to go to the right.

garublador
04-08-2009, 04:03 PM
The discraft Xtreme is rated as -1 stability on both the disc and discraft's webpage, which means that it is very understable. Which means that for me (a right hand back hand thrower), it tends to go to the right.Are you sure you aren't thinking of the Xpress? The Xtreme has been discontinued and isn't even on the Discraft site anymore.

Ryan P.
04-08-2009, 04:53 PM
hey garublador, for what shots would you purposely put OAT into your throw? I've never understood using OAT, because it seems that I can get most any like without using it, and using it makes the throw more unpredictable.

dpennycuff
04-08-2009, 05:30 PM
It is the xpress, since I picked it up only a couple of months ago. My mistake, there is no excuss for forgetting the correct name. I would look for sure, but it is loaned out to a beginner buddy of mine for his main driver.

garublador
04-09-2009, 10:29 AM
hey garublador, for what shots would you purposely put OAT into your throw? I've never understood using OAT, because it seems that I can get most any like without using it, and using it makes the throw more unpredictable.I can't think of a less smart-alek way to put it, but you put OAT on a drive any time you want a flight that you wouldn't get if you didn't put OAT on the disc. Being able to control how much OAT is imparted allows you to control if, when and by how much a disc turns over. Being able to have one disc that can turn over at 200', 250' or 300' depending on how much roll over you use (usually in the form of finishing on a different plane than the throw) is super useful. Need the same flight with a fade? Throw a less beat version of the disc with less hyzer angle. Need a sweeping hyzer that doesn't bite into the hyzer at the end? Throw a beat disc with some roll under. Being able to control OAT like this allows you to throw a limitless number of lines with one mold in a couple stages of beatness rather than requring a limitless number of molds all being thrown the same way.

craigg
04-09-2009, 11:03 AM
I think you don't really understand what OAT is Garublador.
Off Axis Torque by nature causes a disc to flutter out of the hand.
There is a difference between forcing a disc to turn in different ways based on angle of release, and Off Axis Torque.
The descriptions of throws you are giving have everything to do with mung (or the angle of the nose of the disc in relation to the ground + the application of spin), and nothing to do with Off Axis Torque.
OAT (again by nature) is not something you can really control. It is an indicator of poor form and an "unclean" or off axis release.

garublador
04-09-2009, 01:04 PM
I think you don't really understand what OAT is Garublador.
Off Axis Torque by nature causes a disc to flutter out of the hand.
There is a difference between forcing a disc to turn in different ways based on angle of release, and Off Axis Torque.
The descriptions of throws you are giving have everything to do with mung (or the angle of the nose of the disc in relation to the ground + the application of spin), and nothing to do with Off Axis Torque.
OAT (again by nature) is not something you can really control. It is an indicator of poor form and an "unclean" or off axis release.While changing the attitude of the disc is another way to control the disc:

http://www.discgolfreview.com/resources/articles/angles.shtml

OAT is definitely another way to control your shots, too. OAT does cause flutter, but it requires a lot of it to get that flutter. My understanding is that the flutter is the OAT "fighting" with the angular momentum of the spinning disc. I'm talking about much less OAT, enough to affect the flight of the disc without causing that flutter. OAT can be caused by grip problems at the release, but that's not the source of the controlled OAT I'm talking about. You're basically "pushing" (torque is a force) the disc in the hyzer or anhzyer direction at the hit to get a more or less overstable flight.

volmed10
04-09-2009, 01:34 PM
Another question about throwing a drive with "hyzer".

If I am throwing a regular RHBH drive and I want to have the disc release with a hyzer angle, do I need to adjust my grip to rotate the wing down, or rotate at my wrist so that the wing has a hyzer angle.

If I need to adjust my grip, what modifications do I need to make?

Thanks in advance.

garublador
04-09-2009, 02:38 PM
You shouldn't need to adjust your grip to get different hyzer angles. You may need to adjust your wrist orientation to change the attitude of the disc depending on the shot you want to make, though. Here's an article that talks about that some:

http://www.discgolfreview.com/resources/articles/angles.shtml

Something else that will help understand how to achieve different angles is telegraphing your throw. Here's an article about that:

http://www.discgolfreview.com/resources/articles/telegraphing.shtml

craigg
04-09-2009, 02:56 PM
While changing the attitude of the disc is another way to control the disc:

http://www.discgolfreview.com/resources/articles/angles.shtml

OAT is definitely another way to control your shots, too. OAT does cause flutter, but it requires a lot of it to get that flutter. My understanding is that the flutter is the OAT "fighting" with the angular momentum of the spinning disc. I'm talking about much less OAT, enough to affect the flight of the disc without causing that flutter. OAT can be caused by grip problems at the release, but that's not the source of the controlled OAT I'm talking about. You're basically "pushing" (torque is a force) the disc in the hyzer or anhzyer direction at the hit to get a more or less overstable flight.

It doesn't take much Off Axis Torque at all to cause flutter - I think this is a misconception on your part. Flutter is caused by the application of torque at an angle other than parallel to the plane of the flight plate. This is most frequently the result of wrist roll during or just before the "hit" or release point. It is not uncommon to see players that are trying to develop arm speed or power go through a period where they equate that wrist roll movement to one or both - and their results are not very good. It's not until they learn to apply that force cleanly and on axis - that they start to get better distance results, and a better understanding of a discs true flight characteristics.

While wrist roll can be utilized to adjust release angle, and yield differing flight patterns, that is not the same as OAT. You can adjust those angles in your motion and still release the disc cleanly - applying all the force in a gyroscopic/on axis fashion. Any off axis torque will cause your disc to flutter - and it will then spend some portion of its flight - fighting its way back to a gyroscopic equilibrium. Pretending that you can develop any sort of control over that is just that......pretending :)

garublador
04-09-2009, 04:22 PM
Why can't you control OAT? It's just another force on the disc.

If you don't belive me, how about I reference Blake T:

http://www.discgolfreview.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=11578&p=157944&hilit=oat#p157944
http://www.discgolfreview.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=11123&p=151588&hilit=oat#p151588
http://www.discgolfreview.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=9869&p=132895&hilit=oat&sid=0365a3ea0e876670202f8a57d26dedab#p132895
http://www.discgolfreview.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=9647&p=129632&hilit=oat&sid=35f67778aac3fb1503108a2f5a3e3630#p129632
http://www.discgolfreview.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=9448&p=128691&hilit=oat#p128691
http://www.discgolfreview.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=9496&p=126950&hilit=oat#p126950

Flutter is caused by OAT, but you don't always get flutter with OAT. I agree with most of what you're saying, except that it's very possible and very useful to learn to control it.

craigg
04-10-2009, 07:48 AM
There are so many dimensions to controlling every aspect of disc flght, adding OAT as a controllable dimension is both unnecessary and unpredictable. The correction period of the flight pattern is affected by wind, release angle, nose angle, etc. There's simply no useful or consistent way to apply it. The references I see in some of the links you posted by Blake T are similar to the way you referenced it - and it seems as if its just a more convenient explanation for the use of wrist roll (not necessarily a more correct one). I just don't find it plausible.

I'll take my 30 years of experience, and ~ half a million throws over Blake T's prolific writing. You believe what you want. :)

craigg
04-10-2009, 10:28 AM
Having now gone through ALL your post references, it's apparent why it's so confusing. Blake T is just plain wrong in his explanation of the use of OAT. The subtleties he is trying to describe are absolutely NOT Off Axis Torque. You don't control the nose angle by applying Off Axis Torque, you SACRIFICE IT!!!
The wrist roll over, roll under stuff he references are confusing enough by themselves - trying to call them varying forms of Off Axis Torque just increases that confusion.

So while I appreciate the amount of time that Blake has put into his teaching of various throwing techniques, I think he missed the mark on this one.

OAT is or should be a relatively simple concept. The disc is a (largely) planar object. To make it fly, you apply torque to the edge of that plane (the rim). That torque is applied parallel to the plane of the flight plate, and perpendicular to the axis of rotation. ANY torque that is applied off axis, or off plane, will result in flutter - it's really just that simple. That flutter will compromise control, distance, and accuracy, and is something to be avoided if you have any interest in having any of those qualities in the flight of your disc.
Learning varying techniques for angle of release that effect a discs flight patterns are most successful when Off Axis Torque is left out of the equation.

garublador
04-10-2009, 11:10 AM
I'll take my 30 years of experience, and ~ half a million throws over Blake T's prolific writing. You believe what you want. :)I'll take the advice of guys like Dave Dunipace, Dave McCormack, Avery Jenkins, Jon Drummond, Timmy Gill, Lightning Lyle (a Twin Cities local with a similar amount of experience as yourself) among others over one guy's contradictory advice any day. That's where Blake got his information, he didn't make it up himself. Check out the videos here:

http://www.discgolfreview.com/resources/throwanalysis.shtml

and think about how many of those people he got to talk to when making the videos.

Here's an article about distance throwing (which you claim OAT is not a part of) where he spoke with Avery Jenkins and Jon Drummond:

http://www.discgolfreview.com/resources/articles/distancelines.shtml

I supppose they don't know what they're taking about, either?

That's one heck of a bibliography.

I'd suggest anyone reading these posts to believe whomever they want as well. ;)

I understand we're both saying roll over and under can be used to shape a disc's flight, and whether or not it's OAT is largely irrelevant when it comes to actually playing, but it is incorrect to say OAT can not be controlled or used to shape flights. In fact, wrist extension can cause OAT that actually forces the nose down more. That's how guys (like Steve Brinster, IIRC) can use grips where the disc does not have a nose down orientaion, but they can get a nose down flight. I really don't understand what seems impossible about using a force to control how a disc flies.

craigg
04-10-2009, 11:46 AM
I'll take the advice of guys like Dave Dunipace, Dave McCormack, Avery Jenkins, Jon Drummond, Timmy Gill, Lightning Lyle (a Twin Cities local with a similar amount of experience as yourself) among others over one guy's contradictory advice any day. That's where Blake got his information, he didn't make it up himself. Check out the videos here:

http://www.discgolfreview.com/resources/throwanalysis.shtml

and think about how many of those people he got to talk to when making the videos.

Here's an article about distance throwing (which you claim OAT is not a part of) where he spoke with Avery Jenkins and Jon Drummond:

http://www.discgolfreview.com/resources/articles/distancelines.shtml

I supppose they don't know what they're taking about, either?

That's one heck of a bibliography.

I'd suggest anyone reading these posts to believe whomever they want as well. ;)

I understand we're both saying roll over and under can be used to shape a disc's flight, and whether or not it's OAT is largely irrelevant when it comes to actually playing, but it is incorrect to say OAT can not be controlled or used to shape flights. In fact, wrist extension can cause OAT that actually forces the nose down more. That's how guys (like Steve Brinster, IIRC) can use grips where the disc does not have a nose down orientaion, but they can get a nose down flight. I really don't understand what seems impossible about using a force to control how a disc flies.

I didn't see Avery or Jon say anything about Off Axis Torque in that interview. They were talking about the flight characteristics of the various discs they use for distance. They are talking about forcing a disc to go through its natural range of motion based on the flight characteristics - which are tied to the shape of the disc and the distribution of mass around the rim. They didn't mention OAT once that I saw (granted I went through it sort of quickly).

So.......... if you want to think I'm just some random guy spouting off - that's ok too. But I was throwing over 500' distance shots when Avery was in diapers dude. Your best bet in learning control over golf plastic is to learn to throw clean, and teach yourself the true charcteristics of the discs you have chosen to throw. Whether OAT is a usable method or not is pretty much irelevant until you have a very advanced skill set. As such - it's something that should be discouraged when teaching new players. I don't think Blake, Dave D, Avery, Jon, or Timmy G would disagree with that.

biscoe
04-10-2009, 12:37 PM
avery was probably only throwing 450 or so when in diapers:)

craig knows as much about getting a disc to fly in a variety of different ways as anyone i have seen in my 15 years or so of experience.

garublador
04-10-2009, 01:12 PM
craig knows as much about getting a disc to fly in a variety of different ways as anyone i have seen in my 15 years or so of experience.I'm not doubting that, but I do doubt his grasp on the physics behind it.

As for the interviews, I don't think they were completely transcribed, but I could be wrong. Blake lives in MPLS and was (I don't know if he is now) active in the Sundog League, so he's had the chance to spend time with guys like Jon Drummond and Timmy Gill on more than a really short interview basis.

My point is he's talked with several big guns and many people with lots and lots of experience. If he were coming to the wrong conclusion you'd think they would have pointed it out by now.

craigg
04-10-2009, 02:36 PM
I'm not doubting that, but I do doubt his grasp on the physics behind it.

The main reason I post on this board is to share my experience with those who have less of it. Not sure what your experience level is, based on your profile it's hard to tell. It appears though, as if you rely a lot on what other people have written and said, and less so on your own experience.

Look again at the interview on distance you posted. Take away your pre conceptions on OAT, and look at what Avery and Jon are describing. They are describing facets of a flight pattern. Those facets are functions of the type of discs they are using (less stable for hyzer flip shots, more over stable for anhyzer shots) - and they describe how to best take advantage of those facets using height, speed and wind factors. Any implications of the use of Off Axis Torque - are ones you put there.

I cut my teeth on this game playing with the likes of Climo, Stokely, Valencia, Brooks, Greenwell, Voakes, Tannock, Schack, Leyva, Ahart, Wisecup, etc etc. I think I might have a grasp on the physics - just maybe :rolleyes:

zensuit
04-10-2009, 03:05 PM
What's up with all the antler bashing around here? I shot 6 under the other day on a technical course by throwing the disc the way I visualized the shot.

Never once even thought about OAT, etc...

Maybe all you guys are right and we are all still going to get beat by some noob with the natural snap needed to throw 500 feet at the age of 17!

Z

DRKPRNC
04-11-2009, 06:56 PM
I myself have only been playing with the hyzer-flip for a few days. I've been holding somewhat of a hyzer angly from start to finish, which works great with my Archangel and Roadrunner. My Sidewinder on the other hand, will flatten out when I do this and then fade to the left without really heading to the right.

So, I've been just using a three finger grip and then pulling straight back and at the moment I snap my wrist I try to let the disc sag a bit. This has helped a great deal with the Sidewinder hyzer-flip, for me. For only being a 165g Champion Sidewinder in great condition, I didn't expect to have to do this. If I turn it anhyzer style at the snap, and only use two or three fingers, it will go right and stay right until it fades. I'm RHBH btw.

I'm learning this too Fireborne, so good luck!

fireborne
04-17-2009, 03:15 AM
Been a while since I replied to my own topic, so shame on me...

So I realized I made a mistake in my earlier posts about which disc I was throwing. It was not a Roadrunner, but in fact a Sidewinder. The speed of the disc is the same, but the stability (-4 vs -3) was different.

In the mean time I did go pick up a DX Cheetah and it is certainly easier for me to turn over. Don't get me wrong, when I throw the Sidewinder flat, it most certainly turns right for me (RHBH). But I can throw the Cheetah with a hyzer angle, and either release flat or release with hyzer and they both wind up going to the right, just at different points in the flight. I'm guessing this is what should be happening.

I do have to put a LOT of hyzer on the Cheetah to get it to fade back to the left, but this usually winds up getting rather high up in the air and I'm pretty sure this is due to a nose flat or nose up orientation.

Which brings me to my next question(s)...

When YOU throw a hyzer flip, how high does the disc fly and what kind of distance do you get out of it? I realize there will be a number of different answers, but I'm looking for all of them, so I can get an idea of the height to distance ratio for a hyzer flip. On some courses you have no ceiling to speak of and can launch it as high as you need. On others, the trees will limit how high you can put it, and I'm wondering if there is a significant decrease in the distance you can get because of this.

On the flip side (pun intended), the flex shots I've been throwing have been getting further and further out. However, I am experiencing a problem in that some times when I don't get enough height or distance, the disc will drop out of the air on an anhyzer angle and hit the ground with nose down, and just start to roll back and to the left, and usually will start to come back towards me. Is this just a symptom of not getting enough height on the throw, or using too much of an anhyzer angle? If anyone could give me some suggestions, I'd love to hear them.

Anyway, I do appreciate the advice everyone so freely offers here, and I look forward to getting more feedback from anyone who would care to share it!

tamahawk
04-19-2009, 07:55 AM
Let me preface my comments by saying that I am merely a recreational player. I don't know much about OAT and all of that stuff, but I will share my experiences with the hyzer-flips and flex shots, and you can take it for what it's worth.

When YOU throw a hyzer flip, how high does the disc fly and what kind of distance do you get out of it?

I have just started throwing this shot in the last couple of months. I use the RoadRunner for this type of shot, but am trying to experiment with a few others as well. Depending on how much hyzer angle the disc is released with, it will either flip flat or flip up and actually turn over (RHBH). I only throw around 280-300ft, and I get the same amount of distance out of this shot as a standard flex shot. Spin seems to be the key factor in me being able to flip the disc. When I get a good, clean release, the disc does what it is suppose to do.

On the flip side (pun intended), the flex shots I've been throwing have been getting further and further out. However, I am experiencing a problem in that some times when I don't get enough height or distance, the disc will drop out of the air on an anhyzer angle and hit the ground with nose down, and just start to roll back and to the left, and usually will start to come back towards me. Is this just a symptom of not getting enough height on the throw, or using too much of an anhyzer angle?

This is my favorite type of shot. I definitely get more distance throwing a flex shot than a flat, hyzer type throw. I experience similar issues as mentioned above. For me, it's like this. If I really want to put some anhyzer on the disc, then I have to throw with a higher trajectory in order to give the disc enough time to flatten out and come back. If I throw to low, the disc never has a chance. So the more you turn it over, the more room the disc needs to finish it's flight path.

There is a Hole at my local course (#3, Freeman Lake) that requires a flex shot, but it has a low canopy. I really struggle with this hole to get the right amont of turnover to hit my line without the disc turning into the ground and rolling off into the woods on the left. I've recently started trying the hyzer flip, and seems to work better, but with the low canopy, it is difficult to pull this shot off.

BrotherDave
05-18-2009, 11:14 PM
When YOU throw a hyzer flip, how high does the disc fly and what kind of distance do you get out of it? I realize there will be a number of different answers, but I'm looking for all of them, so I can get an idea of the height to distance ratio for a hyzer flip. On some courses you have no ceiling to speak of and can launch it as high as you need. On others, the trees will limit how high you can put it, and I'm wondering if there is a significant decrease in the distance you can get because of this.

From what I understand, the older discs will require more height to get out there whereas the newer distance drivers don't need as much. I usually flip a champ Valk (175) and it usually climbs no higher than 25-30 ft and I generally get 325-350 ft out of it. Old thread but what the hell, it is an excuse to pad my post count.

Donald Smith
12-16-2009, 02:16 PM
I'm a newbe so please forgive my ignorance, but what is OAT?

I've thrown my Viking with a really cool hyzer flip, but I didn't know it was called that. It was about 30 to 45 degree down angle, and a good strong throw. It went out, leveled off, went nice and straight, then faded left. I paced it off at about 300', so it was one of my better throws. Unfortunately it hit a tree, tacoed and it changed it's flight characteristics... :(

Thanks,
Donald
PS: I have thrown discs only to watch them wobble about 1/3 of their flight. I've figured it was killing my "D" since it was expending energy trying to stablize. IF I can get rid of my OAT (what ever that is), I might get more "D".

Fleshgordon
12-16-2009, 02:30 PM
Here is a nifty little link you can check out
http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.discgolfreview.com/resources/images/hyzer-flip.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.discgolfreview.com/resources/articles/angles.shtml&h=200&w=308&sz=10&tbnid=hn6YSt8hmX1ZaM:&tbnh=76&tbnw=117&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dhyzer&usg=__e4irQcdGZrs3DCz2T3fF53YWhjY=&ei=HCYpS8eDMM-jnQfRhOGeDQ&sa=X&oi=image_result&resnum=4&ct=image&ved=0CBMQ9QEwAw

and I see you have already seen this article =P mybad

Donald Smith
12-16-2009, 10:51 PM
I found the answer to my question. OAT = Off Axis Torque. It is easy to spot if your disc is fluttering for 50' or so after your throw, then you're putting some wrist twist into it. OAT will shorten your throws.

Donald

stevep
12-18-2009, 03:04 AM
Okay, I'm trying to understand how to throw these shots, but have a few questions about the varied results I get. Hopefully you guys & gals will be able to help me out with these problems.

Hyzer-flip:
As I understand it, a hyzer-flip consists of throwing an understable disc with a hyzer angle to make the hyzer flight characteristics of the release fight the understable tendency the disc imparts.

Q: When throwing hyzer-flip, do you impart some OAT to make this happen? For example, do you hold & release the disc with a hyzer angle, but not use a hyzer angle pull back & follow through? (ie: hold the disc with some hyzer angle, reach straight back, pull straight through, and finish straight across.) Or do you hold, release and follow through with a hyzer angle with an understable disc?

Flex shots:
Again, as I understand it, a flex shot is using an overstable disc that is released with an anhyzer angle, which makes the overstable disc overpower the anhyzer flight path to come back and finish to the left (RHBH thrower).

Q: Essentially the same question as the hyzer-flip. Do you use OAT to perform this shot correctly? Or do you use a pure throw to make the disc anhyzer and just put enough power behind it so the flight is long enough to give the overstable disc enough time to overpower the anhyzer flight path?

I have read everything I can find about these topics, but I just need some clarification on which is the correct way to throw them. If someone could point me to a video which demonstrates these throws in detail, I would appreciate it. I have seen the distance competition video where the guy in yellow is obviously throwing a hyzer-flip, but you can't really see how he throws it. I have also seen the Discraft video where they are throwing flex shots towards the uphill hole as well. That video does help, but it doesn't show enough slow motion to be much help.

So, if someone could describe in detail how they throw their hyzer-flip shots and flex shots, I would be most grateful.

Thanks again guys & gals and I look forward to reading your replies!

This is an article that I wrote a while ago that explains how to throw both shots in a easy to understand way.

click here (http://hubpages.com/hub/Get-more-distance-on-your-disc-golf-drives)

Beable
12-18-2009, 11:00 AM
Thanks to whoever bumped this. Very interesting discussion.

sidewinding
12-18-2009, 01:05 PM
Let me rephrase the original questions because no one really seemed to answer it.

1. When throwing a flex shot do you follow through low?

2. When throwing a hyzer flip do follow through high?

I say yes and yes.

jdggna
12-18-2009, 03:18 PM
Let me rephrase the original questions because no one really seemed to answer it.

1. When throwing a flex shot do you follow through low?

2. When throwing a hyzer flip do follow through high?

I say yes and yes.

hyzer flip: I follow through higher. It really depends on how strong your flip is. My putter I follow through extremely high. My leopard, not as much, because it won't flip as much so I don't hyzer as much.

Flex shot: I finish lower in the sense of what the question was asking. However, when I throw these I'm usually throwing them pretty high so my final arm position isn't too far below a normal release.

Technohic
12-18-2009, 03:28 PM
Let me rephrase the original questions because no one really seemed to answer it.

1. When throwing a flex shot do you follow through low?

2. When throwing a hyzer flip do follow through high?

I say yes and yes.

Ideally, probably continue on the same axis that you throw it, in a continued motion.

biscoe
12-18-2009, 03:42 PM
1. yes, a little
2. yes to an even greater degree

captain jack
12-29-2009, 09:02 PM
I threw the most beautiful hyzer flip today, I was stunned.

It was an amazing thing to watch, probably since I've never done it properly before.

I've been trying to push my drives out farther. I have been playing for more than 20 years , and, due to a shoulder dislocation when I was kid, I really dont throw very far, I max out on a good day at 300' on flat ground.

So during this winter " off season " I have been going out to the local wide open course and trying to extend my range.

The backhand flex shot came easy to me, I throw overstable flex forehand drives all the time, its how I learned, so backhand with the right overstable disc was easy, its just a matter of correct nose up angle.
Too high and it comes back, too low and it turns into an anny roller, but still not too bad to master.
So I think I have the Flex shot down.

The hyzer flip is a little more tricky. Without alot of arm speed, its hard to get enough rotation on the disc to get it to perform properly, plus it requires the right disc.

I threw my beat Dx Beast. I started with the disc hyzered, and followed through with a low hyzer snap release, the disc was never close to flat until long after it left my hand.
I usually turn this disc over because I grip lock it and pull it back behind my shoulder, but today, with the correct hyzer release and follow through, I watched it flip to flat, then go past flat to the anny side, then gracefully work its way back.

Friggin' awesome.
And long.

Why the hell do we buy all these spendy, trendy, special formula drivers when the dirty little truth is a 6 dollar disc flies the farthest. :doh:

ChainMan
12-30-2009, 12:53 AM
I threw the most beautiful hyzer flip today, I was stunned.

It was an amazing thing to watch, probably since I've never done it properly before.

I've been trying to push my drives out farther. I have been playing for more than 20 years , and, due to a shoulder dislocation when I was kid, I really dont throw very far, I max out on a good day at 300' on flat ground.

So during this winter " off season " I have been going out to the local wide open course and trying to extend my range.

The backhand flex shot came easy to me, I throw overstable flex forehand drives all the time, its how I learned, so backhand with the right overstable disc was easy, its just a matter of correct nose up angle.
Too high and it comes back, too low and it turns into an anny roller, but still not too bad to master.
So I think I have the Flex shot down.

The hyzer flip is a little more tricky. Without alot of arm speed, its hard to get enough rotation on the disc to get it to perform properly, plus it requires the right disc.

I threw my beat Dx Beast. I started with the disc hyzered, and followed through with a low hyzer snap release, the disc was never close to flat until long after it left my hand.
I usually turn this disc over because I grip lock it and pull it back behind my shoulder, but today, with the correct hyzer release and follow through, I watched it flip to flat, then go past flat to the anny side, then gracefully work its way back.

Friggin' awesome.
And long.

Why the hell do we buy all these spendy, trendy, special formula drivers when the dirty little truth is a 6 dollar disc flies the farthest. :doh:

Isn't that the sickest feeling when that hyzer flip kicks up flat and holds! Keep doing that and your game might be light a few strokes :clap:

Apothecary
12-30-2009, 01:05 AM
Why the hell do we buy all these spendy, trendy, special formula drivers when the dirty little truth is a 6 dollar disc flies the farthest. :doh:

pick up some gold line discs and you will understand. :p