Season of mud

[Mando]

The next two months are the worst ones for muddy conditions in the WNC mountains. Lots of precipitation with the freeze/thaw variable piled on. In terms of minimizing the soil degradation that is accelerated with foot traffic on waterlogged soils, what are some cost-effective preventative measures.
Also curious if there is any code of ethics amongst disc golfers to stay off courses when they are wet ? I know that mountain biking trails are periodically closed when they get too wet.

[tallpaul]

Beginning around five years ago; our area simply closed courses in Nov.; until May. This effort related more to spring conditions than winter. As a long time winter player (though, evidently I'm getting too old for such things; and have not played near as much the past few winters), it hurt to have most of the near courses shut down. However, from a land sustainability standpoint, it was a good move. If the baskets are in; and sometimes even when not (as players will show up and play tee post to tee post); players will play. Popularity of the sport; combined with lack of etiquette from the masses; has made this inevitable.

[Apothecary]

the really (regularly) muddy courses ive played use some sort of poles, logs, railroad ties or 2x4s as paths to walk on. ive also seen gravel out there to harden things up a bit.

[tallpaul]

The only long term solution is to use materials suggested by Apoth and then fill over the top of them; with some sort of edge containment. In other words, to have walking fairways elevated; so water drains off the sides. This, of course, is lots of work; and therefore the efforts of the boy scouts or some other donating time agency is really needed to help out. Mountainous conditions, of course, add to difficulty.

[Mando]

players will play. Popularity of the sport; combined with lack of etiquette from the masses; has made this inevitable.
This is really what I want to discuss. When will disc golf get to the point where people can see past their next round ?
Pipedream; " you know, I'd really like to play today, but I don't want to contribute to the soil compaction/erosion"
In ball golf the course is closed or you stick to the cart path.

[1978]

When will they see that bending over 1 more time in the round to pick up a fallen limb and throwing it off the fairway or throwing their trash in the trash can is in the best interest for all. The answer is no, people will not listen or be curtious. We just poured concrete...and I put up 15 signs saying to stay off the pads for 3-4 days or play would ruin the texturing. We covered them with plastic and straw. Did this stop people NO and about 15 of them tried to scratch their names into the concrete. I had to go back and rub it out before the pads dried. The key is to understand that players will break limbs and track mud around. You need as a good course designer or maintenance person to plan for the worst. So erosion control, wood chips, gravel, what ever you can do to stop the flow of water or collection of water is all you can do.

[1978]

Same in ball golf...how many people slam their clubs in the green, dont repair divots, or ball marks on the green? Or when they do, do it incorrectly and kill the grass on the green. How many people refuse to rake after they are in the sand traps... Its not all or even many. The ones that do mess that stuff up, however ruin the greens, sand traps for everyone.

[hognosesucker]

We move pin placements in the spring to the flatter positions to avoid hillside erosion, we are planning on making a winter placement on a particularly bad hillside so that we can help alleviate problems, although folks still sled on that hill. I play pretty often in the winter/spring mud season, although I play shorter, flatter courses generally during this period. Personally, I think it is a lack of communication between the players and the people that know the causes and consequences of playing hillsides in the mud season, or at all. We all love hilly courses, but it comes with a price to the land, esp. at heavily used courses.

Another cool idea is happening in WI at standing rocks with different loops (12 hole loops and a 9 hole loop), a loop can be closed at any time to let the land rest periodically.

[Mando]

Same in ball golf...how many people slam their clubs in the green, dont repair divots, or ball marks on the green? Or when they do, do it incorrectly and kill the grass on the green. How many people refuse to rake after they are in the sand traps... Its not all or even many. The ones that do mess that stuff up, however ruin the greens, sand traps for everyone.
I hope you are not comparing ball golf ettiquette to dg ettiquitee cuz we don't even know ho to spell it.

[Apothecary]

hee hee...

idk dg uses more rugged land and doesnt require $10,000 greens. the courses are, therefore, always changing and more like living entities.

cant handle muddy courses? dont play them.

[lokirising]

Greenway Park in Oregon is on wetlands, so this time of year it's a marsh.

[Mando]

cant handle muddy courses? dont play them.
Good answer. I didn't know Arnold Schwarzengger played disc golf.

[Apothecary]

what?:confused:

[Longliveguitar]

my home course is a swamp of sorrow this time of year, its a bummer

[Mando]

Players will play...

[Spatula Cornroll]

Bring an extra towel motha truckas!

[tallpaul]

^^^^Mando is asking from a course designer/owner's perspective.

[Mando]

^^^^Mando is asking from a course designer/owner's perspective.
Actually, not. More from the long-term-keep-a-course-in-the ground perspective...

[Mando]

Regarding wet weather play, I really have to question whether disc golf is the ultimate instant gratification game/sport/outdoor activity...who is looking past tomorrow ?

[tallpaul]

As mentioned by hognose; the rotating loops, where parts of the course can be shut down for a year or two is the ultimate answer for long term; but few have this option.

[Mando]

As mentioned by hognose; the rotating loops, where parts of the course can be shut down for a year or two is the ultimate answer for long term; but few have this option.
So,the answer is tear it up and shut it down ?

[sloppydisc]

It may not be a conservation decision, but me and my friends avoid courses that don't handle weather well this time of year. For us it is due to heavy clay, type mud. If a course owner, park manager or other person with course responsibility has concerns about erosion they should just shut it down. Don't leave it up to the players if you fear for the course. Players are going to play in ALL conditions. Even if they have surf in the mud.

[Mando]

It may not be a conservation decision, but me and my friends avoid courses that don't handle weather well this time of year. For us it is due to heavy clay, type mud. If a course owner, park manager or other person with course responsibility has concerns about erosion they should just shut it down. Don't leave it up to the players if you fear for the course. Players are going to play in ALL conditions. Even if they have surf in the mud.
That's a good,honest answer in that we are all are governed more by our footing issues than how we are impacting the course. When you see the level of wear at Kentwood or Reedy Creek, it should be a wake-up call. Not sure that most park managers have the option of shutting it down.

[tallpaul]

So,the answer is tear it up and shut it down ?

I don't know what to tell ya Mando. Simply too many players these days. And; I must admit; I played during sloppy conditions; but, weren't near as many players then; so impact wasn't that bad. After a long, cold, hard, winter; in parts of the country that this applies; getting out for some wet, spring disc is the cat's meow. Ball golf is not usually played in heavy wet conditions; due to the nature of the game. Plus, golf courses have much larger budgets than we do. My local park's response, was yes, shut it down. Rotating pins, another hognose observation, is another helpful option. I have had a special interest in just such areas; and have provided all the answers I have. Are you just hoping players will stay off the course because it's wet? Well, what about snow? What about too much heat? In parts of the country; soil will get heavily impacted under conditions that are too dry. Should radio stations begin issuing daily play or not play condition updates? Ultimately it's the too much or too little usage issue that parks sometimes have to consider. My opinion has been that the more persons using a park the better; but there are some systems that also like to leave some land for "natural/undisturbed" usage. If the land is getting tons of use; it's going to get damaged. This is again, one of the reasons why private courses have options that can make for a wonderful experience. At the same time; as a player; usage limit seems restrictive. Thus, rotating loops seems the ultimate answer.

[harr0140]

This is really what I want to discuss. When will disc golf get to the point where people can see past their next round ?
Pipedream; " you know, I'd really like to play today, but I don't want to contribute to the soil compaction/erosion"
In ball golf the course is closed or you stick to the cart path.

That will happen when all disc golf courses are private and people are told to leave the property.

FOr what it is worth, when our local course was installed for the winter (involving a dozen or more holes on a golf course) and we experienced some decent weather (no snow on the ground and 50 degree temps) there were actually golfers going out to play. The gol course was closed but they found a secret way to get onto the golf course. They probably felt it was a public course they pay taxes so it should be open for them.

It happens in all instances when on county or city property, people feel they have the "right" to make that decision on their own. Until people have privvate courses where they can dictate that the damages will far outweigh the income potential, people will always play when they shouldn't.

[Mando]

Are you just hoping players will stay off the course because it's wet? Well, what about snow? What about too much heat? In parts of the country; soil will get heavily impacted under conditions that are too dry.
I'm fairly sure that you can play on a layer of snow or in all kinds of heat without having a sustantial impact on the soil profile. Soil compaction/loss of the organic layer is accelerated in wet, waterlogged soils and once the soil profile is altered, the chance of a natural groundcover getting established is reduced. The next step is erosion. No, I don't expect ot hear it on WKRP.
What I do expect is some dialogue.

[tallpaul]

Sorry Mando; that post got a little carried away. I've given all I have. Will leave this thread for others to contribute.

[harr0140]

I'm fairly sure that you can play on a layer of snow or in all kinds of heat without having a sustantial impact on the soil profile. Soil compaction/loss of the organic layer is accelerated in wet, waterlogged soils and once the soil profile is altered, the chance of a natural groundcover getting established is reduced. The next step is erosion. No, I don't expect ot hear it on WKRP.
What I do expect is some dialogue.

Playing on bare frozen soil is worse than playing on snow covered turf although this may seem obvious.

Playing on soft mushy soil is as bad as it comes, so if there is a thaw in the fall or in mid winter, those are the most important times to avoid disc golf courses.

[Mando]

If all the ball golf courses around here are closed and foregoing the $25.00+ greens fees, why are disc golfers oblivious to the damage they are causing ?

[harr0140]

If all the ball golf courses around here are closed and foregoing the $25.00+ greens fees, why are disc golfers oblivious to the damage they are causing ?

Because we do not have a forum to discuss the problem. If it was all private pay to play courses, people would know and would not be playing, but the fact is we are not, we are run by public entities who do not want to spend the funds to remove the baskets, or who do not want to deal with the hassle of telling people to not play.

Truthfully though, the damage from the few people (DGers) who would play in horrible weather is far less than the damage caused by a bunch of golfers intent on playing . . . trust me, I was in charge of fixing the problems caused by golfers on half frozen ground for more than a couple years. The financials didnt add up, but for some reason the golf course owners still insisted upon income in January!

[harr0140]

If all the ball golf courses around here are closed and foregoing the $25.00+ greens fees, why are disc golfers oblivious to the damage they are causing ?

The other answer is that they had golf course superintendents (responsible for the repair and damage of such circumstances) telling them it wasn't worth it. The problem is to find that breaking point where the actual damage incurred costs more to repair than the income brought in. In my world at $25 a round it would take a hundred or so golfers to make being open worthwhile, and in that case there were never 100 golfers interested in playing, we were talking more about 25 or so players . . . so why stay open. It is situations like this that make me glad to not be a golf course superintendent anymore!

[Mando]

Let's face it, the "free" nature that attracts us to disc golf is also an impediment to maintaining it for the long term. Free=disposable.

[harr0140]

Let's face it, the "free" nature that attracts us to disc golf is also an impediment to maintaining it for the long term. Free=disposable.

Agreed that is why I am pushing for people to
maintain" these course. Parks departments have a hands off philosophy when they need to be actice in terms of what is allowed and what isn't. Why can't the counties decide to charge a nominal fee in exchange for some more regular maintenance? Hopefully the do or course will continue to deteriorate as time goes on!!!

[1978]

That's a good,honest answer in that we are all are governed more by our footing issues than how we are impacting the course. When you see the level of wear at Kentwood or Reedy Creek, it should be a wake-up call. Not sure that most park managers have the option of shutting it down.

I don't believe it is a function of muddy or playing during rain that made these courses (Cedar Hills, Raleigh too) like they are. When you walk on the course in the summe , you remove the leaves, also creating fairways removes trees and their roots. General wear lossens up the gravel. I've spent a lot of time at Nevin and other courses that I've built putting cedars, PVC pipe, pressure treated lumber, etc across areas of erosion. Spreading gravel also helps. Most course builders are so elated that the course is "done" that this is neglected. They dont do the finishing touches. I HATE seeing the roots 3" out of the ground. You are just going to lose more trees that way.

For about 6 months, every time it was going to rain hard, i walked Nevin or Bailey. I saw where water was now flowing and I diverted it or built retaining walls. Its hard work but well worth it in the long run.

You arent going to stop people from playing, so its up to you and your club/friends to stake in erosion control and in extreme places backfill those areas with dirt. Simple water diverters works well too to make the water flow off the fairways and into the woods. Wood chip or gravel muddy areas, rotate pin placements, create retaining walls around the bases of baskets and vulnerable downhill edges of tee pads. The only answer is hard work and regular maintenance. It is amazing what "free" materials you can find if you are just looking around for them. Recently I just picked up about 20 concrete parking space stops. Just pried them up off the rebar with a mattock. They were in a parking lot scheduled to be dug up and turned into something else. Those can be rebarred anywhere and will last basically for the life of the course.

Saving your local course should be a really cheap project but it takes the time and effort to do it.

[judson]

Austin had it right with Zilker with two 9 hole courses on sight with only 9 baskets. north course and south course. The baskets moved when one course needed a rest.

[Mando]

I don't believe it is a function of muddy or playing during rain that made these courses (Cedar Hills, Raleigh too) like they are. When you walk on the course in the summe , you remove the leaves, also creating fairways removes trees and their roots. General wear lossens up the gravel.
I would have thought that it is obvious that more damage is occurring when it's wet. When you take a step and your foot slides with a layer of mud, that would seem to be damaging the organic layer far more than 20 passes in dry weather.

[1978]

Except, you only then have a 9 hole course...and people didnt just play from tee to green on the "other" course?

[Mando]

I get the impression that most folks like that "worn-in" condition when all that pesky groundcover is eliminated from new courses, and discs are easy to find.
The only problem is without groundcover, the organic layer/topsoil is vulnerable if a course has grade change and sees alot of traffic. If the course is in a deciduous forest with no leaves to intercept the rainfall in the winter, Feb/March is the perfect storm for soil damage.
Should courses be designed with a trail from tee to basket ?

[DavidSauls]

Among the reasons most disc golfers don't care---beyond the tendency of most disc golfers not to care---are that smooth ground affects the play a lot more to ball golfers than disc golfers. Some disc golfers have no interest in aesthetics (some like Owens Field, one of the ugliest courses ever created), so what's a little erosion. Some just don't know---I'd never heard of soil compaction until a few years ago.

"Playing when soggy" affects different courses very differently. Earlewood, for example, is so hilly that there's only one place where the soil gets soggy or muddy. Much more damage is done by the cummulative use during all seasons....what can do you do about that?

And a lot of it is the same as all kinds of environmental issues---"I'm just one person, my walking here will have an insignificant impact."