Jump Putt Questions

[milow369]

I am thinking about incorporating a jump putt into my game but I've got some questions related to the rules. Would really like to hear from pros or advanced players who regularly use a jump putt in their game.

1) I assume that I can use a jump putt outside of 30'. Inside of 30' would be considered a "falling putt" and is a penalty - correct?. I also assume (because I've never seen anyone whip out a tape measure) that distances are estimated and can be challenged by a fellow player during a tournament. I don't ask because I want to try and work the system, I would just rather not commit a penalty. I really want to be confident in my understanding of the rules when it comes to this putt.

What is your rule of thumb for you when deciding whether to go ahead and green light on the jump putt in a tournament? i.e., do you make sure that you're out at least 40' so there's no question?, do you ask fellow players what they think before you take your shot?, etc.

2) Consider a scenario: My marker is at least 50' out from the basket. I want to try a jump putt. I assume that I take a couple steps back behind my mini, size up the shot, take the shot ensuring that my jump comes to rest behind my mini at the conclusion of the shot. I assume that if my jump goes past the mini it's a foot fault and a penalty - is that right? or, because it's outside of the 30' ring is it like a tee shot where as long as the disc crosses the front plane of the teebox before your feet it's clean?

3) I played with a rather impressive prodigy at a tournament last fall. This kid had one hell of a jump putt. On one hole I remember he took a shot at a basket. He was shooting downhill and I assume was out 30'+. I remember that it was close, but whatever, let's say he was 31' out. He takes this jump shot, flings the disc almost straight up into it's S turn. His momentum takes him forward and due to the downhill, he sort of runs down following after the shot. By the time the putt gently floats into the chains, he is less than 15' from the basket and running at it at a pretty good pace right at it - It was like some Tiger Woods thing. It was very impressive but I always wondered if it was legal. I assume that because he was outside of 30' and the disc got off clean with him trailing, this was perfectly legal.

Sorry for the book but I've been noodling the above for a while. Thanks for your comments. BTW - feel free to call out any of the above if I am not on the mark.

The main thing I am concerned about is when I can and can't legally use the jump putt and what I need to be concerned with prior to taking the shot - Thanks!

[tamahawk]

Ref Item 1):
As defined by the PDGA rules handbook:
Putt: Any throw from 10 meters (32.8ft) or less as
measured from the rear of the marker disc
to the base of the hole is considered a putt.

Ref Item 2):
Stepping past the marker disc is
permitted after the disc is released, except
when putting within 10 meters.

There is a pdf file of the rules on the PDGA website, here is a link:
http://www.pdga.com/documents/pdga-rules-of-play

I have found the jump putt to be very useful in the right situation, it would be a good addition to your game.

[33tango]

My local course painted a 10M circle around each basket for the last tourney they had. Don't know how prevalent that is.

[DiscJunkie]

I'm not very experienced as far as tourneys go, but some do the painted circle, some dont. It would be difficult to mandate the circle (you can't paint dirt), but it would be nice.

[Roc1Time]

First thing, its not 30 feet, its 32.8. That seems to be a big mistake that most people make and yes that 2 and half feet can make a big difference. But I do jump alot and what I have seen and done over time is if its close, get a decision from the group. If they say your out, then your good to go. Most of the time from what I have seen is if its close then well give it to you. Our new course we have in town has put in 8 bricks around each basket so all you have to do is look for a second. Hope this helps

[zenbot]

I think that it's always best to get a consensus before the shot. That way there's no argument after the fact.

[zenbot]

I always have my Fat Max Extreme tape measure (http://www.stanleytools.com/default.asp?CATEGORY=XTREME&TYPE=PRODUCT&PARTNUMBER=33-900&SDesc=35%26%2339%3B+FatMax%26%23174%3B+Xtreme%26%2 3153%3B+Tape+Rule+with+BladeArmor%26%238482%3B+Coa ting) just in case there is a dispute. You can measure things out and it's great for getting discs out of trees or the water.

How's that for product placement?

[Roc1Time]

Nice plug

[zenbot]

Nice plug
They should send me Fat Max T-shirt, at least.

People would probably just think my name is Max. Maybe I should start losing this beer belly.

[A.Mutt]

so here's a related question ...

why have the courses measured out in feet but then have a putt defined with meters? Same deal with the resting above the playing surface rule being 2 meters. Why would a sport developed in America use the metric system and then not completly across the board?
I'm more curious than anything else ... with a meter being so close to a yard which we are all far more familiar with here in the States, why go metric?

[garublador]

All the PDGA rules are in metric. I'd assume it's because the goal is for it to be a world wide sport rather than just an American sport. I don't know if that's the reason for sure, though.

Marking distances on courses is not regulated by the PDGA so how it's done is left up to whomever installs the course.

[A.Mutt]

Makes sense. I still wish it was in yards or that the public education system here had taken teaching us the metric system more seriously.

[zud00]

The PDGA is trying to influence the rest of the US to convert to the metric!!!:D:D:D

[A.Mutt]

lol its kind of funny... I don't know for sure how popular a sport DG is world wide but I doubt that international play comes close to the amount domestically. So we have rules that the majority of the users don't fully grasp because of measurements in a system they don't use, and those that use that measurement system don't typically play. Brilliant.

[scarpfish]

If we want our sport to have worldwide appeal, we should use a measurement system that most of the world uses. (Do you realize its just the U.S., Myanmar, and Liberia where the metric system isn't official?). That being said, I think its okay to use the local standard for hole distance measurement. There really is no good metric standard that equivalates to 1 ft. very well. Would you rather play a 500' hole or a 152.4 meter hole? How about a 1524 decimeter hole?

Aside from our typical American means of being stubborn, I suspect some of the reasons that the metric system hasn't caught on is the alliteration of the terms. Millimeter, centimeter, decimeter, meter, decameter, hectometer, kilometer. They all sound the same. Millimeters, centimeters, and meters have caught on in some contexts because we've found an practical application for them that works better than inches, feet or yards do. But when was the last time you used a hectometer for anything?

[A.Mutt]

If we want our sport to have worldwide appeal, we should use a measurement system that most of the world uses. (Do you realize its just the U.S., Myanmar, and Liberia where the metric system isn't official?). That being said, I think its okay to use the local standard for hole distance measurement. There really is no good metric standard that equivalates to 1 ft. very well. Would you rather play a 500' hole or a 152.4 meter hole? How about a 1524 decimeter hole?


Just playing devil's advocate here a bit, but don't we have enough problems with disc golf gaining sport legitamacy here in its home country without making some of the rules difficult for the average user to understand when they aren't sure what a meter visually looks like?

[scarpfish]

Just playing devil's advocate here a bit, but don't we have enough problems with disc golf gaining sport legitamacy here in its home country without making some of the rules difficult for the average user to understand when they aren't sure what a meter visually looks like?
Nah, I don't think any of our legitimacy problems have to do with using metric measurement. A meter really isn't that hard to visualize considering its just 3 1/2 inches longer than a yard. Any kind who has ran in a high school track meet should have that down pat.

[A.Mutt]

true, true. for meters I just visualize a yard and then a touch more since when I do that I don't need to be too accurate. But not everyone ran track. I never did, nor do I personally know any disc golfers that did ... actually I'm having a hard time thinking of anyone I know that ran track. I've competitively played a lot of different sports over the years and never did I need to know how long a meter was until now. I will certainly agree it not a major issue of any kind, just nitpicky of me.

[zenbot]

Who's going to start using metric time?

[garublador]

Who's going to start using metric time?It could have been worse, they could have written the whole thing using the metric alphabet.

[milow369]

Some really great stuff here all, glad I asked. Thanks as always for your insight.

Reading through, and attempting to interpret the PDGA rules can give me a headache. No excuse for not reading regularly. Your comments help reinforce my understanding of the rules.

Ok, some takeaways

The circle 32.8 feet (30 meters) is the magic distance. If your mini is inside that ring, no forward movement is allowed (i.e., falling putt - I have been called on that before)

Outside the ring - usually a group consensus prior to the shot can confirm if it's close) you are ok to let your momentum carry you over your mark providing the disc is released first.

Thanks again all, that about answers all of my questions

MLow

[trifocal]

Tee measurements will go metric when pot starts being sold in tenths of kilos. Meanwhile, 10 long paces usually settles the jump putt distance for most situations.

[zenbot]

It could have been worse, they could have written the whole thing using the metric alphabet.
4.6 DECIHOURS BEFORE START!!!

[zenbot]

Some really great stuff here all, glad I asked. Thanks as always for your insight.

Reading through, and attempting to interpret the PDGA rules can give me a headache. No excuse for not reading regularly. Your comments help reinforce my understanding of the rules.

Ok, some takeaways

The circle 32.8 feet (30 meters) is the magic distance. If your mini is inside that ring, no forward movement is allowed (i.e., falling putt - I have been called on that before)

Outside the ring - usually a group consensus prior to the shot can confirm if it's close) you are ok to let your momentum carry you over your mark providing the disc is released first.

Thanks again all, that about answers all of my questions

MLow
So if you don't mark the disc that could be the difference between a jump putt or not.

[A.Mutt]

It could have been worse, they could have written the whole thing using the metric alphabet.

"... And finally, the so-called "trash letters", or P, Q, R, S, T, U, V, W, X, Y, and Z, will be condensed to this easily recognizable dark character."

[zenbot]

"... And finally, the so-called "trash letters", or P, Q, R, S, T, U, V, W, X, Y, and Z, will be condensed to this easily recognizable dark character."
Does this dark character look like this?

http://happyvalleynews.files.wordpress.com/2009/03/prince_symbol2.jpg

[A.Mutt]

ROFL

[dpennycuff]

First things first, there is no metric time. Both the metric system and english system use seconds, minutes, hours, days, etc for measuring time; however, some countries will write the date as 27 April 2009 instead of April 27 2009. This is not to say that you couldn't write 1000 seconds as a kilosecond if you wanted to, but you could also write it as 1 thousand seconds. kilo is just the metric way to say thousand, like deci is the metric way to say tenths.

I agree that the reason the rules use metric is to make it more internation, and a good point was made, that there is nothing in the rules as to which units to use for measuring the length of a hole. I would surmize that in europe the hole length is measured in meters.

I have not seen a good use for hectometers, but hectaacre is used by the Department of Agriculture to measure to amount of corn, hay, wheat, etc that we have in the united states (i.e. there 14,000 hectaacres of wheat in the US). I made the number up; I don't know how many hectaacres of wheat are in the US, since winter wheat has not been planted yet.

Another good point was made that 1 meter is 3.2808 feet or 39.37 inches or 1.0936 yards, so we have a habit or rounding off to the nicer numbers like 3 feet for the 1 meter ob rule, and 10 feet for the 3 meter hight rule, or 30 feet for the 10 meter putting rule.

[zenbot]

First things first, there is no metric time. Both the metric system and english system use seconds, minutes, hours, days, etc for measuring time; however, some countries will write the date as 27 April 2009 instead of April 27 2009. This is not to say that you couldn't write 1000 seconds as a kilosecond if you wanted to, but you could also write it as 1 thousand seconds. kilo is just the metric way to say thousand, like deci is the metric way to say tenths.



I really was just kidding but I'm afraid there is a system of metric time...actually it's known as Decimal Time (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decimal_time).

[scarpfish]

I really was just kidding but I'm afraid there is a system of metric time...actually it's known as Decimal Time (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decimal_time).
A lot of workplaces (mine included) use decimal time with regards to payroll hours, at least within each hour. Each "minute" at my job is actually 36 seconds in standard time since there are 3600 seconds in standard hour.

[Keokuk Discer]

Since no one has answered all the questions here's my take:


1)What is your rule of thumb for you when deciding whether to go ahead and green light on the jump putt in a tournament? i.e., do you make sure that you're out at least 40' so there's no question?, do you ask fellow players what they think before you take your shot?, etc.

I carry a tape measure with me but if it looks to be over 32 feet then I go for it and whip out the tape measure if it's called for a foot fault. After a lot of putting practice you start to know how far away 32 feet is without the tape.


2) Consider a scenario: My marker is at least 50' out from the basket. I want to try a jump putt. I assume that I take a couple steps back behind my mini, size up the shot, take the shot ensuring that my jump comes to rest behind my mini at the conclusion of the shot. I assume that if my jump goes past the mini it's a foot fault and a penalty - is that right? or, because it's outside of the 30' ring is it like a tee shot where as long as the disc crosses the front plane of the teebox before your feet it's clean?

Your supporting point must be within 30 cm (or about 11 inches) when you release the disk. This means the scenario above is not good and will give you a foot fault.

To correctly jump putt, you place your foot within 30 cm behind the marker along the line of play, size up the shot, bend your knees, spring foward, releasing the disc before your feet leave the ground and follow through with the jump. You will be jumping past your mini if done right.


3) I played with a rather impressive prodigy at a tournament last fall. This kid had one hell of a jump putt. On one hole I remember he took a shot at a basket. He was shooting downhill and I assume was out 30'+. I remember that it was close, but whatever, let's say he was 31' out. He takes this jump shot, flings the disc almost straight up into it's S turn. His momentum takes him forward and due to the downhill, he sort of runs down following after the shot. By the time the putt gently floats into the chains, he is less than 15' from the basket and running at it at a pretty good pace right at it - It was like some Tiger Woods thing. It was very impressive but I always wondered if it was legal. I assume that because he was outside of 30' and the disc got off clean with him trailing, this was perfectly legal.

Yes, it's legal as long as he's past 32 feet and the disc leaves his hand before his feet leave the ground.

[dpennycuff]

I really was just kidding but I'm afraid there is a system of metric time...actually it's known as Decimal Time (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decimal_time).

From the same wikipedia, under metric time

History
When the metric system was introduced in France in 1795, it included units for length, area, dry volume, liquid capacity, weight or mass, and even currency, but not for time. Decimal time of day had been introduced in France two years earlier, but was set aside at the same time the metric system was inaugurated, and did not follow the metric pattern of a base unit and prefixed units.

so this means that for the metric system time is defined as

Metric time is the measure of time interval using the metric system, which defines the second as the base unit of time, and multiple and submultiple units formed with metric prefixes, such as kiloseconds and milliseconds. It does not define the time of day, as this is defined by various time scales, which may be based upon the metric definition of the second. Other units of time, the minute, hour, and day, are accepted for use with the modern metric system, but are not part of it.

I understand that the metric system is base ten and that decimal time is base ten, but that does not mean that it is part of the metric system. All decimal time does is convert our normal time which is a mixture of bases 24, 60, and 365, and convert it into base 10, which is what our number system is based on (0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9). For example, there are 12 inches for each foot and 3 feet for each yard and 1760 yards for each mile. In a metric system it would be 10 inches for dekafoot and 10 dekafoot for each hectafoot and 10 hectafoot for each kilofoot and 1000 kilofoot for each megafoot and 1000 megafoot for each gigafoot and 1000 gigafoot for each terafoot, and so on.

[zenbot]

From the same wikipedia, under metric time

History
When the metric system was introduced in France in 1795, it included units for length, area, dry volume, liquid capacity, weight or mass, and even currency, but not for time. Decimal time of day had been introduced in France two years earlier, but was set aside at the same time the metric system was inaugurated, and did not follow the metric pattern of a base unit and prefixed units.

so this means that for the metric system time is defined as

Metric time is the measure of time interval using the metric system, which defines the second as the base unit of time, and multiple and submultiple units formed with metric prefixes, such as kiloseconds and milliseconds. It does not define the time of day, as this is defined by various time scales, which may be based upon the metric definition of the second. Other units of time, the minute, hour, and day, are accepted for use with the modern metric system, but are not part of it.

I understand that the metric system is base ten and that decimal time is base ten, but that does not mean that it is part of the metric system. All decimal time does is convert our normal time which is a mixture of bases 24, 60, and 365, and convert it into base 10, which is what our number system is based on (0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9). For example, there are 12 inches for each foot and 3 feet for each yard and 1760 yards for each mile. In a metric system it would be 10 inches for dekafoot and 10 dekafoot for each hectafoot and 10 hectafoot for each kilofoot and 1000 kilofoot for each megafoot and 1000 megafoot for each gigafoot and 1000 gigafoot for each terafoot, and so on.
So you're suggesting that we make the bold switch to binary?

"Hey man! Does this look like I'm 11110 out?"

[A.Mutt]

I always chuckle when I see the tshirts that say;
"There are 10 kind of people in the world. Those that understand binary, and those that don't"

[Neophyte]

Speaking of systems for keeping time I would be interested in having the U.S. convert to International or Military time. Instead of writing 11:00 pm you can just right 2300 easier right?

[scarpfish]

I carry a tape measure with me but if it looks to be over 32 feet then I go for it and whip out the tape measure if it's called for a foot fault. After a lot of putting practice you start to know how far away 32 feet is without the tape.

Yes, it's legal as long as he's past 32 feet and the disc leaves his hand before his feet leave the ground.
If you're jump putting from 32', or even 32' 6", that's a no-no. You're not safe until about 32' 10".

[Keokuk Discer]

If you're jump putting from 32', or even 32' 6", that's a no-no. You're not safe until about 32' 10".

My mistake. I was just trying to actually answer the questions and correct some wrong ideas rather than enter into the metric debate.

I should have said 33 feet which would be the safe distance.

[zenbot]

I always chuckle when I see the tshirts that say;
"There are 10 kind of people in the world. Those that understand binary, and those that don't"
If you like that check out thinkgeek.com. They have tons of great nerdy gear.

[zenbot]

Speaking of systems for keeping time I would be interested in having the U.S. convert to International or Military time. Instead of writing 11:00 pm you can just right 2300 easier right?
I have to use it at work for payroll. I'm down.