New Tee Signs*opinons wanted*

[PA_Disc]

Hi guys, I am working installing a new course here in PA. I am nearing completion and have started working up ideas for tee signs. These are the current layouts that I have. I am leaving space below the first distance mark for future pin placements/distances. Please give me some feedback on what you think so far. I have thick skin, let me have it. :D

http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk121/Unami_Creek_Park/Hole2.jpg

http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk121/Unami_Creek_Park/Hole5_1.jpg

http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk121/Unami_Creek_Park/SIGN3.jpg

[Donovan]

I liked the bottom one the best. Also, if you have some OB areas, It would be nice if you mark those either in the different color with OB on it or maybe a light XXXX black hash marks over the area with OB on top of that.

I know it is a little over kill, but I love it when the signs have some intermediate distances marked on them. Like if there is a single tree in the middle and on the tree it has a small number representing the feet to that tree from the tee. You see this on GPS units for Ball Golf. It would be cool to see that on disc golf signs. Just a thought.

[timg]

I actually like the styling of the first one the best. I like the styling of the map more than the third one and I also like that the hole # and distances have their own section rather than being merged with the map like #2. If you could mix #1's map with #5's layout, that would be my vote.

Donovan's ideas about marking certain course features that stand out is a good one too.

Overall, all 3 look really nice. Good job :)

[mobster]

The first one is my favorite. And either marking out-of-bounds on the map or listing what is out-of-bounds would be a big help.

[PA_Disc]

Donovan- I was planning on putting intermediate distances... I was thinking ball golf too :) OB- will be on there as well. However, there is only one OB that I can think of.

timg- You like the map on the first one, but would like it with the 3rd signs layout and colors?

Thanks for the help.

[PA_Disc]

Mob, I like the first one myself. OB will be marked. Again, right now I think that there is only one OB for the entire course.

**I will probably be sticking with the Burgandy color for something as it is part of the park's color scheme**

[timg]

timg- You like the map on the first one, but would like it with the 3rd signs layout and colors?

I like that the third sign has the distances in color although it was the only one with multiple pins so perhaps you'd do the same on sign #1.

You could also try losing the purple bar on the bottom, moving the par over by the distances somewhere and making the map bigger on the sign.

[PA_Disc]

Alright, I will see what I can do. All of the signs would end up having the multi color distance markers once the alternates are installed, as shown in the third layout.

The signs are currently planned to be 12"x12" square alum.

[JR Stengele]

Sign three looks the best

[PA_Disc]

Since we are talking about the new course, I figured I post up a course map.
-Note- some of the distances are not accutrate. Many of the hole have been lengthened since this map was done.
http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk121/Unami_Creek_Park/illustrator_layout.jpg

And a shot from the course. #4
http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk121/Unami_Creek_Park/UCP007.jpg

[tomschillin]

I like sign 1 the best. but a "next tee" arrow would be a great addition

[timg]

I like sign 1 the best. but a "next tee" arrow would be a great addition

Seconded!

[magictenor1]

all the signs look good and hole #4 looks great too.

[nexanimal]

I like #3 the best. Reasoning:
- I think the fine lines in the maps on #1 and #2 (especially the blue line on #1) would fade more quickly or be harder to see through plexiglass covers that are losing their transparency
- both maps #1-2 include more geography that is not a part of the course

#3 is visually simple, made from large shapes likely to stay readable after fade/wear, and provides basic information. I would add lines showing the preferred flight path from the tee to the holes, this would also aid in keeping the signs understandable as they age.

#3 is also a lot like the signs on my home course, El Dorado Park in Long Beach, CA. They are easy to understand and provide basic information. Agree a "next tee" arrow would be a nice addition.

- nex :o

[WillA]

I liked the first one best. I think a good addition to signs is an indication of where the next tee is.

[PA_Disc]

Thanks for all the input guys. I will add next tee arrows to the signs. I was actually planning on having directional signage at the baskets to indicate the next tee. Do you think I should show it on both the sign and by the baskets? The preferred line... Is it really all that helpful to have this on the sign? Really, 90% of the time the fairways are visible... I will give it a try to see what it looks like.

Keep the comments coming. Thanks.

[timg]

Both would be cool as often times I'll forget to look for the next tee on the tee sign since I'm used to that info not being included a lot of the time.

[Olorin]

http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk121/Unami_Creek_Park/Hole2.jpg



http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk121/Unami_Creek_Park/SIGN3.jpg

I'd like a mix of signs 1 and 3.
On #1 I like:


plum colored header with course name
map layout

On #3 I like:


*Best feature- Hole lengths color coded by level!
Hole number- bold and black
Par- black and clear
No footer

The map on #3 isn't distinct enough.

[PA_Disc]

Here is a hybrid sign from the comments I have gotten so far.
Please continue with the opinons, thanks.
http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk121/Unami_Creek_Park/Hole2_ALT2-1.jpg

[timg]

Very nice.. my only suggestion would be to see how white text in the dark areas (ie. the OB line) to make it easier to read.

[Olorin]

Awesome!

I like the maroon colored header too. You even list some of the mid-way lengths.

A few more nit-picky suggestions:


Par is basically meaningless in DG (don't get me started on that one! :mad:) so I'd put the par down in the lower right corner (as in the original #3), instead of in a prominent place.
You might want to label the basket layouts as A, B, C and put those letters by the lengths.
I agree with Tim on using a light color for the OB lines. Also applies to anything on dark background (like the length in the trees).

All very minor, though. Keep in mind that I'm an overly detailed perfectionist too.

[PA_Disc]

Thanks for the suggestions. Olorin. I am planning on lightening up the dark text in the dark areas and going with white.

Par- I was thinking about foregoing par altogether, I too liked the "par" in the lower right corner.

Labels- Was thinking about doing that as well. Instead of color coordinating the placements. I was was just tired of looking at black and green... Do you think it would be cool to get rid of the "dots" for the baskets and just place a letter there instead?
-The only problem I can see with that is all of my current pin placements will need to be "A" position... If I decide to have a shorter placement, then I would need to redo the signs.

[timg]

I wouldn't remove par altogether but moving it back down wouldn't hurt anything. Also, you can definitely replace the dots with just letters. I've seen quite a few courses that do that.

[Olorin]

-The only problem I can see with that is all of my current pin placements will need to be "A" position... If I decide to have a shorter placement, then I would need to redo the signs.

Good idea to think ahead, especially if all of the basket positions aren't currently planned.

At a course in Gastonia NC they have a great system for being able to change signs. Hard to describe, but they built boxes with plexiglass fronts (like mini message boards) and the signs are printed on card stock and can be easily changed. I thought it was a good idea.

While the design is in progress another temporary idea is to just print the signs on card stock and laminate them.

BTW, I think that a letter inside of a circle may be the best way to represent a basket and layout.

[ERicJ]

The preferred line... Is it really all that helpful to have this on the sign? Really, 90% of the time the fairways are visible... I will give it a try to see what it looks like.Personal opinion, but I prefer not to have that on a tee sign. Besides cluttering the layout I think that part of the challenge of a course is determining the best route to a basket. Not every player will agree on the same "preferred" route....

[Olorin]

Personal opinion, but I prefer not to have that on a tee sign. Besides cluttering the layout I think that part of the challenge of a course is determining the best route to a basket. Not every player will agree on the same "preferred" route....

agreed...

[ERicJ]

BTW, I think that a letter inside of a circle may be the best way to represent a basket and layout.Ditto. Colors will fade and eventually look similar or identical.

The only problem I can see with that is all of my current pin placements will need to be "A" position... If I decide to have a shorter placement, then I would need to redo the signs.Later, if you're adding shorter baskets aren't you going to have to redo the signs to add the new basket anyway?

[PA_Disc]

Good point Eric, I never really liked the lines for the shots on there anyway, so I decided to keep them off. Below is yet another revised sign. I think each round it gets a little better. How about this one. Thanks for all the help.
http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk121/Unami_Creek_Park/Hole2_ALT3.jpg

[ERicJ]

One other thing that's always good to know is how the distances are measured.

Are they line-of-sight, i.e. GPS distance?
Are they "recommended flight path" distance, taking turns into account?
Are they adjusted for elevation?

This info need not go on each individual tee sign unless there's an exception to the general rule. But ideally this info would be posted on the main course map at the entrance.

[timg]

I think including how it was measured on each tee sign might be slight overkill, you don't want to clutter it with too much unessential info. Having it at the kiosk for those interested couldn't hurt although I have yet to see any course that has done that.

[PA_Disc]

10-4. You think I should put that info on the "rules" sign or just post it somewhere with course map? I plan on doing the line of sight distances i.e. Laser range finder.

[Olorin]

http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk121/Unami_Creek_Park/Hole2_ALT3.jpg

Getting very close (and this is certainly already good enough). My suggestions:


Change the font of the hole number from italic to regular
Put the A, B, C layouts in colors (as in the 1:12 version)
Put the circled A, B, C markers in the same color. It may only because the screen is small but on the map the circled A, B, C are a little hard to read.

It's really fine as is, but with these minor tweaks it'll be perfect.

[Donovan]

Getting very close (and this is certainly already good enough).

It's really fine as is, but with these minor tweaks it'll be perfect.

I'm with Olorin. I think with those few changes This would be the best sign I have seen thus far. AND kudos, for asking others to chime in.....it shows that you are willing to listen the people who use them and heck, it makes your job easier too.

Love the signs! You just modeled the way for others.

[ERicJ]

I would also increase the font size of the hole number. (Maybe lose the border around it too.) Think about when you're on a new/unknown course and you're looking for the next tee from a distance. The most important information to be big, bold, and easy to see is the hole number.

This is a pet peeve I inherited from my Mom when she's out looking for garage sales. They'll be a sign posted on the street with huge letters for "Yard Sale"... and then a little tiny address. People know it's obviously a Yard Sale sign, the relevant information you need to convey to drivers at a distance is the address.

[ERicJ]

I plan on doing the line of sight distances i.e. Laser range finder.
If you don't have one already I highly recommend the Nikon Monarch Laser 800 (http://www.nikonsportoptics.com/product.php?group=16&subgroup=13&product=8356). Super easy to use, waterproof, fogproof, and +/- 1yd accuracy. I'm continually amazed at how well it picks up a reading off a basket.

When I was measuring distances (http://www.dgcoursereview.com/course_files/2576/ef4cb696.pdf) for the two additional temp courses we put in for TX States (http://texasstates.org/) next to the-LINKS (http://www.dgcoursereview.com/course.php?id=2576) I was rather easily getting measurements off a 3/4" PVC pipe stuck in the ground at 400+ feet, marking basket locations (pre-basket install) using the Monarch 800 on a Targus TG-MP6710 Monopod (http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2850678) ($10 at Radio Shack).

My only complaint is that it only gives readings in yards or meters, no feet... so you have to multiply by three.

[Donovan]

My only complaint is that it only gives readings in yards or meters, no feet... so you have to multiply by three.

what is that a, gps unit?

[Olorin]

I plan on doing the line of sight distances i.e. Laser range finder.

On hole lengths-- I think it's probably best to list the lengths rounded to the nearest 5 ft. (or even 10 ft.) When players are driving knowing that it's 285 (or even 290) is good enough. It doesn't help to know that it's 286 because no one throws that precisely. When I read 313 ft then I translate it in my head to throw something 310. Also, there are too many variables with measuring distance to make measuring to the foot meaningless. e.g.- it's fine to use line of site with a laser, but on curved holes the length is longer because a disc follows the curve. Elevation changes also affect the measurement line. To me, just having the lengths rounded to 10s is sufficient. Actually I chuckle when I see signs that aren't rounded because I know they're not that accurate.

[ERicJ]

what is that a, gps unit?I was talking about my laser range finder (http://www.nikonsportoptics.com/product.php?group=16&subgroup=13&product=8356).

But I do have a Garmin eTrex Vista HCx (https://buy.garmin.com/shop/shop.do?cID=145&pID=8703) GPSr for making course maps and for those holes where a laser just can't see the basket.

[ERicJ]

On hole lengths-- I think it's probably best to list the lengths rounded to the nearest 5 ft. (or even 10 ft.) When players are driving knowing that it's 285 (or even 290) is good enough. It doesn't help to know that it's 286 because no one throws that precisely. When I read 313 ft then I translate it in my head to throw something 310. Also, there are too many variables with measuring distance to make measuring to the foot meaningless. e.g.- it's fine to use line of site with a laser, but on curved holes the length is longer because a disc follows the curve. Elevation changes also affect the measurement line. To me, just having the lengths rounded to 10s is sufficient. Actually I chuckle when I see signs that aren't rounded because I know they're not that accurate.

I had this debate with a guy in town here too a while back. I've only been playing this sport for six months now so I'm more than willing to listen and learn from those more experienced than I, but... I've been making new maps for all the Houston area courses and I'm doing almost exclusively line-of-site measurements.

When I did the laser accurate measurements for TX States people loved them. There were lots of comments how nice it was to have super accurate values, especially on water holes where "wheeling" the distance is always a problem.

Whether they really can or not, there are pros that will tell you they'll throw differently on a 282' hole vs. a 287' hole.

You're correct that curves and elevation do add significant distance to line-of-sight values. However, my opinion on that is similar to the "recommended flight path" line on tee signs. If you measure a distance along a "recommended flight path" around some trees and a player decides to go over the trees instead the posted distance isn't valid for him.

My ideal preference would be for every hole to list the GPS, or line-of-sight distance to the hole and let the player make the appropriate adjustments for changes in elevation or desired flight path. You can't know how a player will approach a basket, so don't make assumptions on distance for him, just give him the raw information and let him make his own decisions.

Anyway that's just my $0.02.


Actually I chuckle when I see signs that aren't rounded because I know they're not that accurate.Funny, I do the same thing with signs that are rounded for the same reason.

[PA_Disc]

Wow, I missed l a lot yesterday after I left "work". :) Thanks for all the good input guys. I enjoy hearing everyones opinion, while I know I cannot please everyone, its much more comforting to know that most people will enjoy the signs.

This is the way I went about designing the course too. The more input people were able to provide, the more the course was able to change in their favor.

As far as changing the colors of the alternates, Im not sold either way on that. I hear alot about fading from the DG guys and then I hear from the sign guy that the vinyl has a 9 year warranty from fading ect. In reality, it does not really matter since I wont have alternates in right away. I have time to decide.

I agree about the hole number. I want to change it back to standard text too. I was toying with the idea of the italic, but the more I looked at it the less I liked it.

For ease, I am going to just do line of sight measurements. If as a disc golfer you wish to calculate the angle of deflection to measure the chord of the ark to establish the point of tangency, then I will leave that up to you. :) I feel that with the incremental distances, line of sight measurements are more than "fair".

[PhattD]

Looks cool! When's it gonna be done? I wanna come play!

[PA_Disc]

Hopefully soon. I just measured up last night.

[Donovan]

Hopefully soon. I just measured up last night.

Don't forget, we do expect to see your final version. ;)

[PA_Disc]

No problem. I dont know if I will get to it today or not, but I should have it done by sometime next week.

[PA_Disc]

Here is the final sign for Hole #2.
The colors are messed up on this for some reason? I guess the colors are out of the web gamut. You get the idea though. I will post actual pitcures of the signs once I get them back from the sign maker guy.

http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk121/Unami_Creek_Park/Hole2-1.jpg

[Donovan]

Clean and easy to read. Great Job!!!!

[Olorin]

http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk121/Unami_Creek_Park/Hole2-1.jpg

Awesome!

You could put "Par 4" in regular not italics, though. You know I've got to nit pick about something. Great job!

[Olorin]

I just found a file on installing tee signs and I posted it at DG Resources (http://sports.groups.yahoo.com/group/DGResources/files/Course%20Design/). Look in Files/ Course Design.