Giant Downhill or shorter, less steep wooded holes?

[Peterb]

Hi, I was having a design meditation on this new potential course. I found this one hilltop that has an amazing view/setting, and the possibility of having a huge downhill shot (800-1100ft) with a very large drop in elevation (300ft). While the disc golf geek in me would love to launch some plastic from that spot, I'm not sure that it is the best solution for a permanent course.

The alternative would be to set up two or maybe three holes that slope downward less steeply and play in the woods (there are also some nice meadows to play in).

My question for you is what you'd prefer to play? This course would be a bit out of the way, but there's a nice campground right at the course, so it could be a bit of a destination.

Keep in mind that the wow factor often comes with lots of lost discs due to spray area, a tough hike downhill, etc. While wooded holes may actually be more difficult to carve a line.

[UnitedPuppySlayer]

What kind of players would be playing this course for the most part? More experienced players or newer ones? If it's going to be mostly experienced players i say go with the long downhill hole, or at least a longer hole than usual.

[surgeflx87]

Long downhill rips are just pure fun. They get my vote. Although I do love a nice technical course too.

[Peterb]

What kind of players would be playing this course for the most part? More experienced players or newer ones? If it's going to be mostly experienced players i say go with the long downhill hole, or at least a longer hole than usual.

Hard to say. What I'd like to do is have white and gold tees for each hole, thereby accommodating differing skill levels. But this would be such a huge downhill blast that I'm not sure that it would be possible to have a white tee that wouldn't require a long downhill walk.

[TxDiscGolfBoy]

Who wouldn't prefer the open downhill rip?!?!?!

[Danger]

Regulars course....shorter technical holes
Destination course....big downhill rip.

[Peterb]

Regulars course....shorter technical holes
Destination course....big downhill rip.

How do you differentiate? I could envision it being a destination course for sure, but it is close enough to civilization and there isn't another course around that there will undoubtedly be some regulars.

[dudiablo]

I love the excitement of a possible ace on a technical wooded hole, but there is just something to be said for a downhill rip that sticks with you. I have played some really fun holes with great tunnels, and very tricky lines but my favorite hole has to be Ewing hole 10 in Des Monies Iowa. I have only had a chance to play there 2 times, but I get excited about that hole every time I cross the state boarder between MO to IA. Makes getting a bird on a nearly 600 foot par 3 possible. Unforgettable.

http://www.dgcoursereview.com/view_image.php?id=65&p=08063845

[Peterb]

Let me add a little more perspective here. We're talking about a 300 foot elevation drop. Hard to see what I'm talking about but here's a pic of the spot:

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/_gjjz3cui3x4/TXxTHJZS9RI/AAAAAAAABKk/mT9G7ksnQI4/s512/IMG_0273.JPG

[dudiablo]

Let me add a little more perspective here. We're talking about a 300 foot elevation drop. Hard to see what I'm talking about but here's a pic of the spot:

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/_gjjz3cui3x4/TXxTHJZS9RI/AAAAAAAABKk/mT9G7ksnQI4/s512/IMG_0273.JPG

:eek:

[McLeod]

Bombs Away!

[pchitti]

Can I tie a rock to my roc...
I would love both. Maybe set up 3 course layouts for course healing you can rotate holes that are out...
Add another 6 -12 pins and use rubber tee pads. Thats what makes a great course to me. A course thought out for healing from constant flying plastic. Hell for the first year run it as a 24 or more course to beat the holes in. For tourneys you can then make it 2 15 hole courses with a couple of temps and be able to hold a good size tourney.

LOL im the only one wanting more tech... Couldnt pick both.

[Danger]

How do you differentiate? I could envision it being a destination course for sure, but it is close enough to civilization and there isn't another course around that there will undoubtedly be some regulars.

Here is what I mean: Disc Finding.

If this is a course that will likely be played by a steady regular crowd, they may grow weary of chuckin plastic on a hole that always results in a half hour search for a disc you swore you saw land.

On the other hand, that same hole that is annoying locals can be the main reason people travel to the course from all around.

If I was building a course to cater to a mostly local crowd, I would probably keep the holes shorter purely for speed-of-play. Maybe keep the long hole around for tournament or organized use. Heck, try either way and see how it works out in the end!

[mashnut]

If possible, you could include the downhill bomb on a loop of holes that people could skip if they want, especially if you get more than 18 holes in. Rogers Lakewood has a fun downhill hole and two more that play back around and up the hill, and many locals just skip that loop of 3 turning it into a 21 hole round instead of the full 24.

[DavidSauls]

.....or create a safariable shot.....a series of shorter downhill holes, which can be combined for one bomb when desired.

One factor in favor of the big bomb is that it's a much rarer hole, in fact unique for many players.

One countervailing factor is that if you've got a great section of property that could produce a number of excellent holes, why use it up for a single hole?

[DSCJNKY]

How do you differentiate?

Golden Gate = regulars course
Stafford Lake = destination course.

Which type of land do you have?
DSCJNKY

[biscoe]

real question is not merely a choice between one hole and a "few others"... it's a question between the one hole plus whatever other holes in another section get added versus the "few others"...

which creates a more complete, varied, fun, fair course?

[superberry]

BOTH! See Winter Park in Kewaunee, WI

Use the wooded holes to transition to the bomber, OR long walks are fine if they are to get atop a 300' hill and rip a disc 1000'!

[Dave242]

.....or create a safariable shot.....a series of shorter downhill holes, which can be combined for one bomb when desired.

One factor in favor of the big bomb is that it's a much rarer hole, in fact unique for many players.

One countervailing factor is that if you've got a great section of property that could produce a number of excellent holes, why use it up for a single hole?

Even though I don't know what "countervailing" is, this is what I was going to write. If you had 2-3 holes playing down along side the bomber hole with the last basket being shared, you could give a choice.

Safety, time of play, inability to clear those trees by some (from the looks of the picture). The amount of area where disc can potentially land on the full power bomb down a huge is is enormous.....especially if it is breezy (let alone windy).

[Stan McDaniel]

I am getting "assistance" here in Charlotte from our park's environmental department on downhill and uphill holes. Seems that they have had new training in trail building and erosion control. They do not like holes that play directly down or up the fall line of a hill. They would prefer us to transverse the hill at something less than a 45 degree angle and do trails that shed water every 6-10' or so.

This is probably meaningless to you unless you have an environmental group looking over your shoulder and walking and GPS'ing every hole that you are proposing to build.

Still, the point of their concern is erosion and how to best mitigate designs that invite erosion and to encourage designs that minimize future maintenance.

Just a thought for your consideration in case you have as much government to please as I do while designing a course.

[Peterb]

Golden Gate = regulars course
Stafford Lake = destination course.

Which type of land do you have?
DSCJNKY

Much more like stafford than GGP. Its like stafford minus the walk to the first tee. In fact, there's an awesome group campground right by tee 1. So yeah, I'd guess this would be a destination course.

Thank you all for your input so far. It helps tremendously to conceptualize the potential disc golf desires and issues out there. A likely solution would be to create holes 3, 3a, and 3b for the course where 3 and 3a are the less steep holes and 3b is the bomb. Play it when you feel like launching. My guess is that most who come to visit will at least try it once. Those that may become regulars will get over it and try the other holes.

[Peterb]

here are some more views of the area.

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/_gjjz3cui3x4/TXxTG2BUOEI/AAAAAAAABKc/-3rWMCx_K9Y/s512/IMG_0275.JPG

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/_gjjz3cui3x4/TXxTHrF7EZI/AAAAAAAABK0/ri3xlXSZAMY/IMG_0279.JPG

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/_gjjz3cui3x4/TXxTJeNJYVI/AAAAAAAABLQ/05IoRTHVRnQ/IMG_0287.JPG

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/_gjjz3cui3x4/TXxTJ38N9rI/AAAAAAAABLg/nyclGKWYTSE/IMG_0291.JPG

[joegraham]

Freaking sweet! Is this Serra Park? Definitely have a long downhill bomber. Put a couple benches up at the tee. It'll keep the noobs away when they lose their only disc (beat up Cyclone).

[Peterb]

Freaking sweet! Is this Serra Park? Definitely have a long downhill bomber. Put a couple benches up at the tee. It'll keep the noobs away when they lose their only disc (beat up Cyclone).

Hey joe...this is NOT J.Serra. J Serra is awesome but will not feature giant downhill holes for a number of reasons. It will be much more of a regulars course (if we can get approval of course!).

[superberry]

here are some more views of the area.

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/_gjjz3cui3x4/TXxTG2BUOEI/AAAAAAAABKc/-3rWMCx_K9Y/s512/IMG_0275.JPG

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/_gjjz3cui3x4/TXxTHrF7EZI/AAAAAAAABK0/ri3xlXSZAMY/IMG_0279.JPG

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/_gjjz3cui3x4/TXxTJeNJYVI/AAAAAAAABLQ/05IoRTHVRnQ/IMG_0287.JPG

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/_gjjz3cui3x4/TXxTJ38N9rI/AAAAAAAABLg/nyclGKWYTSE/IMG_0291.JPG

I'm gonna HAVE to play that course!

[joegraham]

Hey joe...this is NOT J.Serra. J Serra is awesome but will not feature giant downhill holes for a number of reasons. It will be much more of a regulars course (if we can get approval of course!).

Pete, I played Sunday with Eric Leaf and he's a land surveyor and will offer his help in any project.

[Mando]

I am getting "assistance" here in Charlotte from our park's environmental department on downhill and uphill holes. Seems that they have had new training in trail building and erosion control. They do not like holes that play directly down or up the fall line of a hill. They would prefer us to transverse the hill at something less than a 45 degree angle and do trails that shed water every 6-10' or so.

This is probably meaningless to you unless you have an environmental group looking over your shoulder and walking and GPS'ing every hole that you are proposing to build.

Still, the point of their concern is erosion and how to best mitigate designs that invite erosion and to encourage designs that minimize future maintenance.

Just a thought for your consideration in case you have as much government to please as I do while designing a course.
Great advice. I'm in the camp of working with the contour of the land, even if it means passing up a more spectacular/dramatic hole. Looks like a tremendous piece of property for dg. I would go out of my way to minimize the erosion potential whether someone is looking over your shoulder, or not.

[Peterb]

I am getting "assistance" here in Charlotte from our park's environmental department on downhill and uphill holes. Seems that they have had new training in trail building and erosion control. They do not like holes that play directly down or up the fall line of a hill. They would prefer us to transverse the hill at something less than a 45 degree angle and do trails that shed water every 6-10' or so.

This is probably meaningless to you unless you have an environmental group looking over your shoulder and walking and GPS'ing every hole that you are proposing to build.

Still, the point of their concern is erosion and how to best mitigate designs that invite erosion and to encourage designs that minimize future maintenance.

Just a thought for your consideration in case you have as much government to please as I do while designing a course.

Yeah trail science is calling for trail humps every 20ft so that runoff goes off trail not down it. In this case I do not have a real concern because it will be easy to use the already existing trail to the bottom that switchbacks and follows the hill's contours. On the other course I'm working on, this is most definitely the case, and since I believe it will be much more heavily used, it makes a lot of sense to design holes that follow the contours of the hills.

[Stan McDaniel]

For some reason, our park folks do not embrace switchbacks. I guess because they assume that the runoff from an upper level will eventually get to a lower level, or that people will simply take the shortest path to their destination which would be walking the fall line. Every day can be a learning experience when working with park departments. What it does is give me the opportunity to do a lot of redesigns as they change their standards. They pointed out the "bowling" or rounding out and deeping of the trails that expose roots and such. To build the trails in an environmentally friendly manner that helps to prevent that will surely take a lot of extra time and effort. Perhaps though, in the long run it will mean less trail and erosion maintenance.

[Stan McDaniel]

By the way, WOW !!!, that is some awesome looking property for disc golf.

[Peterb]

By the way, WOW !!!, that is some awesome looking property for disc golf.

There's no doubt about that. There's no excuse to not make this an amazing course.

[Jaysus]

.....or create a safariable shot.....a series of shorter downhill holes, which can be combined for one bomb when desired.


This!

[DavidSauls]

There's another thread running on most beautiful courses....based on those pictures, this one has to be included, even if it doesn't exist yet!

[Peterb]

There's another thread running on most beautiful courses....based on those pictures, this one has to be included, even if it doesn't exist yet!

The problem is that once our dry season hits the hills become golden brown with the grass. This part of California is kind of the opposite of places east of say the 90th meridian in that you have a nice wet summer and consequently a lot of green during the peak DG parts of the year (though autumn is damn nice too!). Inland California summers are hot and dry, and much of the vegetation goes dormant. So places like Stafford Lake and Black Butte Lake look amazing in march and april but by July are brown...which I personally think is the quintissential california look but I can understand why some may not think its all that nice.

The good thing about this potential course is that there are lots of trees about, which will provide the player shade during the hot times of the year. In fact, the park rangers offered us a large area in which to put a course, but because of the heat I will try to utilize shade as much as possible in the design.

[DavidSauls]

I'm an easterner who finds it exotic, lush or dry. Amazing hills, amazing trees, amazing boulders----you're starting this project with some great ingredients. (Don't blow it!)

[Dave242]

They pointed out the "bowling" or rounding out and deeping of the trails that expose roots and such. To build the trails in an environmentally friendly manner that helps to prevent that will surely take a lot of extra time and effort. Perhaps though, in the long run it will mean less trail and erosion maintenance.

Or you could do like they do with ball golf, soccer, and softball regarding erosion control and just cut all the frickin trees down, plant grass and dump lots of fertilizer on it.....that gets washed off into creeks. No exposed roots anymore!

If the purpose of the park is nature preservation and disc golf is being considered to be allowed in there "as a guest"; that is one thing. If the mission statement for the park is recreation, then some higher-up needs to get the environmentalists some perspective!

Sarcasm was intended. I have had a big issue with a park that I am working on where they claim an important area I want to use is tagged as nature preservation, but the understory is choked out by non-indigenous/evasive buckthorn trees (is that what they are trying to preserve??!!). Disc golf would do wonders in preserving real nature and making it accessible to the community.

[Stan McDaniel]

Or you could do like they do with ball golf, soccer, and softball regarding erosion control and just cut all the frickin trees down, plant grass and dump lots of fertilizer on it.....that gets washed off into creeks. No exposed roots anymore!

If the purpose of the park is nature preservation and disc golf is being considered to be allowed in there "as a guest"; that is one thing. If the mission statement for the park is recreation, then some higher-up needs to get the environmentalists some perspective!

Sarcasm was intended. I have had a big issue with a park that I am working on where they claim an important area I want to use is tagged as nature preservation, but the understory is choked out by non-indigenous/evasive buckthorn trees (is that what they are trying to preserve??!!). Disc golf would do wonders in preserving real nature and making it accessible to the community.



I hear you loud and clear, except rather than evasive I think you meant invasive. I am told to stay away now from larger boulders because the lichens on them are likely over 100 years old! Wow, a small whitish flake on a rock means that we cant walk there? Another hole has some small bushes that only grow on the north side of hills. Okay, so, I must take great care not to disturb any if possible, on this one hole, so the hole must change. There are lots of other north side of hills in this and other parks with those smae bushes. I want to build a footbridge over a small creek and they inspect the creek for hundreds of feet and say you can't cross here, go up there 200' to cross because we are afraid that people might want to bypass the bridge and walk on the rocks. We want to reclaim land in electric power line right of ways from kudzuh and plant with grass but they say no, because fescue is not indigenous. Oh, so just let the invasive kudzuh creep on and kill more trees. I get it,,,,,,,,,,,,not.

Still, I bite my tongue and nod my head and listen and angle for the best I can get with the parameters that are set for me. Probably that is the best you can do also. Sometimes it just makes you want to drink four or five beers. That is a big part of course design and working the system. It all leads to more beer.

[humchris85]

You've got to go with the big downhill Peter!!

[humchris85]

P.S. Where in the bay is this? Up by Pescadero?

Let me know when you get this up and running, I'll definatly make a trip down to check it out.

[optidiscic]

Or you could do like they do with ball golf, soccer, and softball regarding erosion control and just cut all the frickin trees down, plant grass and dump lots of fertilizer on it.....that gets washed off into creeks. No exposed roots anymore!

If the purpose of the park is nature preservation and disc golf is being considered to be allowed in there "as a guest"; that is one thing. If the mission statement for the park is recreation, then some higher-up needs to get the environmentalists some perspective!

Sarcasm was intended. I have had a big issue with a park that I am working on where they claim an important area I want to use is tagged as nature preservation, but the understory is choked out by non-indigenous/evasive buckthorn trees (is that what they are trying to preserve??!!). Disc golf would do wonders in preserving real nature and making it accessible to the community.

I am dealing with a bunch of local opposition as well...they seem to think clearing multi-flora rosa thorns and ivy vines is bad for the environment.....damn thorn huggers

[optidiscic]

PeterB I concur go with the best overall 18 holes...so if one massive huck leaves you a handful of duds its not worth it....this is my beef with many courses......I'd rather throw downhill for half the holes and up or across for the other half then go uphill for 17 and down for 1......its about the overall portrait and not that one centerpiece hole.

However youve seen enough great disc golf across the nation to know better.......and without being there what do I know...good luck!

[hipster]

Make 2 holes. One short and technical, the other one longer. If the course is not going to be crowded, design the holes to allow the long downhill bomb option from the top of the hill from the pad for the shorter hole. Is that dangerous or what?

[Dave242]

I hear you loud and clear, except rather than evasive I think you meant invasive.
.....
That is a big part of course design and working the system. It all leads to more beer.

haha....

I also meant perverse and I said preserve.

Guess I need another beer.

Hope things in CLT are good. Miss you guys and the courses. I'll need to visit for a week to catch up with all the new stuff! Wow.

[Peterb]

PeterB I concur go with the best overall 18 holes...so if one massive huck leaves you a handful of duds its not worth it....this is my beef with many courses......I'd rather throw downhill for half the holes and up or across for the other half then go uphill for 17 and down for 1......its about the overall portrait and not that one centerpiece hole.

However youve seen enough great disc golf across the nation to know better.......and without being there what do I know...good luck!

There shall be no dud holes. I totally get what you're saying...some designer falls in love with one centerpiece hole and designs the whole course around that. Well I don't believe in that as a design concept. Each hole should present a unique set of challenges that make the golfer think before throwing. If this course becomes a reality, I will ensure that is the case...

[Peterb]

Make 2 holes. One short and technical, the other one longer. If the course is not going to be crowded, design the holes to allow the long downhill bomb option from the top of the hill from the pad for the shorter hole. Is that dangerous or what?

It could be. But that might not be a horrible idea in this case...

[mashnut]

The Fun Farm in southern Indiana has two holes at the end that can be played as a safari hole (21s pad to 22s basket) making a long downhill bomb rather than two shorter downhill holes. It actually works out pretty well, not too bad a safety issue as long as you can see the other tee and both fairways from the top tee to make sure everyone is clear.

[biscoe]

I am dealing with a bunch of local opposition as well...they seem to think clearing multi-flora rosa thorns and ivy vines is bad for the environment.....damn thorn huggers

i'd like to go back in time and shoot the idiot that introduced the multi-flora rose to this country...

[optidiscic]

i'd like to go back in time and shoot the idiot that introduced the multi-flora rose to this country...

This Asian species was introduced from Japan to the eastern U.S. in the mid-1860s as rootstock for less-hardy ornamental roses. Not long afterwards it escaped cultivation, creeping its way up and down the Eastern Seaboard and points west. In the 1930s, its advance accelerated when the Soil Conservation Service began advising farmers to plant Multiflora Rose to retard erosion and even to serve as a "living fence" whose sharp thorns could contain animals as large as cattle and horses.

Ahhhh 1850's disc golf....those were the good ole days!

[optidiscic]

as far as the OP........for all the people who want the big rip......think of your typical spray zone x times that by 1,000,000 this is the = spray zone of your hole with a 300 foot drop

Now take the longest search you ever searched for a disc and x times that by infiniti this = equals the amount of time you will spend searching for your disc

I will be busy having a blast on three fun crafty downhill shots down the mountainside while you are hiking/rappeling downward to a fruitless search

If you want the thrill of the big chuck off the mountain just do it anyway from the top and then play the 3 creative holes

[Kwick]

Make 2 holes. One short and technical, the other one longer. If the course is not going to be crowded, design the holes to allow the long downhill bomb option from the top of the hill from the pad for the shorter hole. Is that dangerous or what?

this.

that way you have the option of how you want to play it as long as there isn't a group ahead.


plenty of courses have great techinical wooded holes, but you don't get to bomb it downhill. many people can't even throw 300'. what a thrill to be able to unleash a 400 foot beaut of a shot.

[yawpstang64]

If theres a ton of brush around and finding a disc after the giant rip would just be a hassle to nearly everyone, break it up. If not, it sounds like a ton of fun.

Heres one of my favorite local (well.. used to be :() holes:
Tee is up at the top of the hill a little ways behind the wooden support structures; I think the long basket is a bit over 600'
While a lot of people fade out before even crossing the road (kids and their bosses), and others turn over to the left past the parking lot, the fairway is easily manageable.
http://www.dgcoursereview.com/course_pics/763/8f05af1a.jpg

[optidiscic]

I am trying to wrap my mind around a 300 foot drop.....not sure amost understand how much of a drop that is....2 washington monuments! Thats like dropping a disc out of an airplane.......insane

[Chiefstang]

I am trying to wrap my mind around a 300 foot drop.....not sure amost understand how much of a drop that is....2 washington monuments! Thats like dropping a disc out of an airplane.......insane

The Washington Monument is 164 meters tall, or 555 feet.

[optidiscic]

The Washington Monument is 164 meters tall, or 555 feet.

:doh:

ok but ummmm thats still 100 feet more of drop than any hole Ive ever thrown

Campgaw has a 200 foot drop

and blue mtn has several 100 foot of drop holes that are crazy wonders themselves

300 feet is just crazy and unprecedented in disc golf I was at Diamond X I dont think that was over 300 ft

[jimbosprint]

Toney's Mountain Golf has a 250ft drop on hole 4. Come check it out at the NorCal DGCR meet this June!

[joegraham]

If theres a ton of brush around and finding a disc after the giant rip would just be a hassle to nearly everyone, break it up. If not, it sounds like a ton of fun.

Heres one of my favorite local (well.. used to be :() holes:
Tee is up at the top of the hill a little ways behind the wooden support structures; I think the long basket is a bit over 600'
While a lot of people fade out before even crossing the road (kids and their bosses), and others turn over to the left past the parking lot, the fairway is easily manageable.
http://www.dgcoursereview.com/course_pics/763/8f05af1a.jpg

Where is this hole? Is the tee on the top of the hill looking back? Are you throwing towards the parking lot? That is dumb in my opinion. Lots of potential for hit cars or people (kids) and problems with the city.

[Peterb]

I am trying to wrap my mind around a 300 foot drop.....not sure amost understand how much of a drop that is....2 washington monuments! Thats like dropping a disc out of an airplane.......insane

no...the washington monument is 555' tall. So take 60% of the washington monument and you get about a 300' drop. It's a crazy shot for certain, but there are two very makeable lines: one is the gunsight right down the middle. The other would be a hyzer (RHBH). Lefties would have it a bit harder but there's a hyzer line for them around the tree on the left.

I also like the way the shot finishes: in a sparsely wooded oak forest. This makes it a bit more technical than a simple bomb off the top of a large hill.

[Peterb]

Solitude # 18 has approximately a 300' elevation loss.

[Peterb]

Where is this hole? Is the tee on the top of the hill looking back? Are you throwing towards the parking lot? That is dumb in my opinion. Lots of potential for hit cars or people (kids) and problems with the city.

That would be hole 17 at bryant lake park minneapolis. Yeah its dumb. But so is hole 27 at dela. "PARKING LOT!!!!"

How many times a day do you think they hear that at dela?

[joegraham]

You really have to crank a disc far to reach the DeLa parking lot. At least the basket is in front of the road in front of the lot!! Gives you something to aim for. I have hit the lot once (with a Viper) when I didn't know the hole. Now it's a ROC straight at it. Long Hole 5 at Stafford is a ROC, even a putter!

[BrotherDave]

This is my NC bias coming through but if the technical holes are going to go through scrub brush and little trees like that, I say axe them and go for the downhill bomb. Technical holes that don't have a nice canopy overhead tend to be too technical in order to make them challenging, otherwise they're easily played with OH and spike hyzers (especially if it's not windy). I don't know, technical holes that aren't in a mature, wooded area with tall trees just bug me and my NC roots.

That's beautiful country there, without a doubt.

[Dave242]

You really have to crank a disc far to reach the DeLa parking lot.

Not for me apparently. I threw an Orc at it LHBH since that disc was always had a nice reliable hyzer finish for me (it is actually a relatively easy lefty hole....but as fun as they come!). I thought I threw it really well, but the wind had other plans for it - flipped it and that thing sailed over the parking lot and almost half way down #23. I failed to recover for my deuce.

[Peterb]

shoot, most dg'ers i know have been to dela's parking lot at least once. and it only takes a poorly thrown midrange to get there (though i agree...midrange down the middle.)

[chuckdisc]

Long downhill rips are just pure fun. They get my vote. Although I do love a nice technical course too.

Same Here...:thmbup:

[wolito]

Give me the tight technical shot any day. Downhill shots add a lot of confidence, "oh look, I just threw 700 feet!" but what is the challenge in that?

[superberry]

The challenge is in controlling the flight in the weird downhill flight characteristics. And like Dave242 was eluding to before, the landing zone due to error is immense on this prospective hole, and all the trees are still present on much the hole even in the landing zones. Despite the HUGE errrors that can come during downhill rips, I LOVE THEM! I think the control you must learn, and the extra consideration you need to give to discs that will have much more high speed turn as well as low speed fade due to the length of the flight and the speed due to the added acceleration of gravity is something the true disc golfer wants to master and conquer.

[Stan McDaniel]

The thing that has always attracted me to disc sports is the pure beauty of a disc in flight. You get a supersized portion of visual bliss when you have the opportunity to have a hole like this on a course. I played 2 private courses in the mountains of NC yesterday and both were great. One of them had a few big booming downhill shots. They are truly "the bomb".

[Peterb]

You know, this site truly is great to establish best management practices. In fact, there should probably be a separate sub forum (or at least a sticky) in this course design forum that deals with BMPs for course design. What we have here is basically a 60-40 split on this specific question, which leads me to believe that the BMP when confronted with this design decision is to establish both types of holes giving players a choice: climb the hill (and down it) for the big ol' bombing run, or play with less slope but still downhill on shorter more technical holes. Will it make determining par difficult? Perhaps. But I'm more interested in delivering a fun experience for players and this solution puts the ball directly in their court on any given day. The only true issue I'd see from having alternate holes are the disagreements that could occur in a group if they're playing for tags or cash: they'd have to agree to play a certain set of holes prior to starting out.

Again, thank you all for your input...It is truly valuable!!!

[Dave242]

The only true issue I'd see from having alternate holes are the disagreements that could occur in a group if they're playing for tags or cash: they'd have to agree to play a certain set of holes prior to starting out.

I was thinking that if you made an either/or scenario with 3 down/sidehill holes OR one bomber hole to the 3rd's basket, you could also put a 2 hole "loop" somewhere in the course as make-up holes for the ones you would miss if you chose the bomber hole. This would keep things to 18 holes - good for tournament play.

Or if 2 holes along side the bomber hole you would add one extra hole somewhere by backtracking to the tee and then from basket to next tee.

[superberry]

One set of tees on the top...

Option 1 - play to the long basket, the BOMBER hole
Option 2 - play sidehill to a basket at a midpoint, then install a set of tees that would introduce a second hole that plays to the long basket from the bomber hole.

Then to make up the extra hole if you play the bomber, put a set of tees near teh bomber basket and play a different route up to the sidehill basket (a route different than that second hole which plays from the sidehill basket to the long basket).

[Peterb]

UPDATE: I had a great day out there today designing. The big bomber is still a crazy, 900 ft shot with at least 300 elevation drop. But because of speed of play and the number of holes we want, we opted to drop it for now in favor of two more wooded shots and nice bombing 400' downhill (that you can probably play with your putter). It just seems like the right choice and the holes we have are going to be a lot of fun, but treacherous if you don't hit your lines.

[humchris85]

:( Too bad I love a big bomber.

[Peterb]

:( Too bad I love a big bomber.

You'll love it anyways. There will be plenty of big shots to be had. The extreme downhill on the huge bomb makes it difficult to actually walk down the hill. The shorter technical route is three holes, one of which is a very technical shot around 260' with a nasty ravine on the left. The second shot is also technical (but more open with several possible routes) but downhill at 340'. And the last shot is the most open but with a nice 450' downhill bomb that you could get there with a well thrown putter or mid. Sounds like fun to me!

[fretgod321]

You'll love it anyways. There will be plenty of big shots to be had. The extreme downhill on the huge bomb makes it difficult to actually walk down the hill. The shorter technical route is three holes, one of which is a very technical shot around 260' with a nasty ravine on the left. The second shot is also technical (but more open with several possible routes) but downhill at 340'. And the last shot is the most open but with a nice 450' downhill bomb that you could get there with a well thrown putter or mid. Sounds like fun to me!

still sounds like fun. as cool as the downhill bomb would have been, the technical holes should be great.

[Lewis]

Good decision. Do make sure you do what it takes to protect the natural beauty at this park from erosion and the ravages of foot traffic. It would be a terrible shame for the disc golf course to become a bad spot in such beautiful -- and to us Easterners, exotic -- land.

Now if only God will spawn the Great North American Kudzu Blight and exterminate that monstrosity from the face of the continent...

[joegraham]

Is this Tarwater?

[Peterb]

Is this Tarwater?

no. Its another course that I'm not quite ready to announce on the 'courses in development' department.

[AcesandChains]

It almost looks like you could put the gold/blue tees at the top of this hill, and the white tees on that next hill below it. Those that can't make it past that first line of trees can shoot from the white tees. You could even encourage the use of the white tees by making the main trail lead to them, and a less traveled trail lead to the gold tees. That might help speed of play during casual play.

And it also looks like there are a lot of premade landing areas down that hill. The "big rip" would be an insane hole. But it's so hard to judge distances from a picture.

I'm sure your three "technical" holes will be fantastic too. Looks like a beautiful piece of land for a course. The absolute best of luck with it!

[steven2361]

Why cant i have both? :(

[medicinalfunk]

51 people have something to compensate for

[AcesandChains]

Yeah, my ARM is too small! (What were YOU thinking?)

[Danger]

Someone mentioned multiple tees, which sounds like a great idea...but it brings up a thought:

Many beginners don't have the humility to tee off from anything but the biggest baddest and best, so when designing pro tees, you still have to think about where the disc will go if a beginner is throwing it. I had this issue for a while before I finally gave in and started taking the easy option when provided a choice (not that ANY of our courses have reliable multiple tees).

[Stacie]

Wow...tough call.

We play a lot of wooded holes, which are great fun...but when we get a nice open downhill...it's great fun, too...can't decide.

I guess if the course is mostly open downhills, might not be as fun, but if the course is mostly open and you get a technical wooded hole...pretty fun, too.

Oho, now my brain hurts...

[Easy Tigur]

Idea: place a basket at the bottom of the hill in the same position that it would have been at if you had the bomber hole. If you really want to throw the hole, climb up to the top of the hill and tee off anyways. Kind of a secret easter egg hole that the environmentalists can't get mad about.

[magictenor1]

generally I would vote for the most unique hole which would probably be the long downhill one. It might depend on what the rest of the course looks like. you might compare not just those 2 options but what each decision would mean for the rest of the course design.