The mythical Innova ROC

[bikedoctor]

Going into my second month of this new hobby and I keep hearing about the ROC. Usually in a low respectful tone with everyone nodding their heads in agreement at this sacred flyer. Please educate me.

What is your experience with this disc and what are the different variations (ontario vs classic)? What is your favorite plastic and weigth.

I also can't help but notice Innovas love of R-O-C (CRO, ORC).

Thanks for the education.

Kev.

[Three Putt]

Rocs seem confusing, but it's not really all that bad to understand.

The first Roc came out about '87. It was a small diameter 21.2 cm diameter disc based off the XD. In '89 that disc was replaced with the first version of what we consider a Roc today-the 21.7 cm diameter San Marino Roc. This disc quickly became the most popular disc on the market. At the time the Stingray was about as long a disc as you could get, so the Roc was used by many players for almost every shot.

In '94 or '95, something happened to the Roc mold and the disc was replaced with a new version. Innova's mailing address had changed, so the tooling on the new disc said "Ontario." Thus the old disc became the "San Marino" or "Sanny" Roc and the new disc was called the "Ontario" Roc. The Ontario Roc has a higher dome and flips easier than the San Marino's. Because of this they were not very popular and they were replaced in 1997 by the current "Rancho" Roc, so named because Innova moved from Ontario to Rancho Cucamonga and the tooling once again changed. The Rancho Roc is the most overstable Roc yet, and has been hugely popular.

So, there are really only three molds: San Marino, Ontario and Rancho. If you go to the store and buy a DX Roc or a KC Pro Roc, it is a Rancho mold. From most overstable to least overstable they go Rancho-San Marino-Ontario.

When San Marino's and Ontario's were in production, there was only DX plastic. All plastic variations of the Roc such as KC Pro Rocs, Super Rocs and USDGC Roc are Ranchos. The exception are a few collectors USDGC Rocs that have been run in the Ontario and San Marino molds the last two years, but if you don't understand Rocs and you are paying collector USDGC Roc money for a disc...well, you need more help than a post on a message board can give you.

Last year the DX Ontario mold was brought back as a CFR disc. This year they have re-created the DX San Marino Roc in the CFR program and added an Ontario Roc in Star to the CFR program. So you can find some new San Marino's and Ontario's now with tournament stamps. Any Roc you find with he standard factory stamp is still a Rancho. You can still tell the difference by flipping them over and reading the tooling on the underside.

The original 21.2 cm diameter disc came back in '95 as the "Classic Roc." It has the "Roc" name, but it should be considered a completely different unrelated disc to the other Roc's. It is nothing like a Roc.

That's about it. Actually, it is not...but basically that is it.

Edit: This thread came back from the dead, and the saga of the Roc continues. In 2009 they put the recreated San Marino mold into regular production in Star plastic. In 2010 they introduced the Roc+ mold, which features a slanted inner rim. The original PR for it made the Roc+ seem like a disc they were going to sell in Champ and Star, but other than some fundraiser Star's the only plastic I've seen it in is R-Pro.

[Three Putt]

Oh, you asked about plastic & weight. DX is the best plastic for Rocs, because as they beat in they become super predictable across the whole spectrum of shots. I carry a new DX Roc for slightly overstable shots, a nicely worn in one for straight shots and a beat up one for turnovers. I use weights between 172-175g. A new KC Roc will start out more stable than a DX. I carry one of those but usually I only throw it on windy days. Since I want this disc to be more stable, my KC's are more in the 177-178g range.

[nosajeel99]

Wow. I learned a whole heck of a lot in that post. Thanks, Three Putt.

The Roc is my favorite disc because it does exactly what I want. It holds the line on which it is thrown really well for me (anhyzer, hyzer, or straight). It is my most predictable disc and if I had to play an entire round with only one disc, a Roc would be it.

[garublador]

Oh, you asked about plastic & weight. DX is the best plastic for Rocs, because as they beat in they become super predictable across the whole spectrum of shots. I carry a new DX Roc for slightly overstable shots, a nicely worn in one for straight shots and a beat up one for turnovers. I use weights between 172-175g. A new KC Roc will start out more stable than a DX. I carry one of those but usually I only throw it on windy days. Since I want this disc to be more stable, my KC's are more in the 177-178g range.My opinion is that this is very accurate. If you want to get in on the Roc thing just buy a 172-175g DX Roc and use the crap out of it.

[bikedoctor]

Thank you....

I bow down to your knowledge. :)

[joshdarkstar]

i can't say anything that hasn't already been said... wow. thanks Three-Putt. i agree with the DX and mid 170's weight range. once your Roc gets worn in nicely there is no disc out there that you can control as well as them. if you can become very skilled with a Roc, you won't need any other disc for shorter courses.

[Doktor John]

I'm now motivated to start using the Roc I have and whip it into shape....thanks guys....

[bikedoctor]

What have the other disc makers done to replicate the success of the ROC?

Or have other disc's reached the same legendary status but without the spotlight or fame of the ROC?

I just dont hear other people gooing over their other disc's like the ROC. It just seems one sided and odd.

kev

[Three Putt]

Disc golf is still very regional, so what discs are big changes from place to place. Most of the discs with a really big following are made by Innova as they have the biggest distribution by far.

Here would be my "Hall of Fame" for golf discs.

Innova Aviar: Easily the best-selling disc of all time.
Gateway Wizard: The longest putter on the market. Sales of this one disc keep Gateway afloat.
Millennium Omega Supersoft:Original "putter" plastic wasn't really all that soft, but the Omega Supersoft set the standard for the floppy, sticky putter plastic that is so popular today.
Innova Roc: See above.
Discraft Buzzz: Finally, a mid-range from Discraft that flies like a Roc. It will hold any line you put on it.
Innova Stingray: Anybody else remember when the Stingray was the Max-D disc on the market? It has evolved from distance driver to turnover mid over the years, but it has remained a useful disc in many players bags over the years.
Innova Viper: People forget that this was the best-selling driver of the 90's. It was the pinnacle of "large diameter" drivers. Big, slow and overtable, it has been replaced by faster, small diameter discs.
Discraft Cyclone: Revolutionary when it was released, it is a fast (well, it was fast at the time) driver that you can shape a variety of lines with. Pros and recreational players could all use this disc for distance drives. Discraft is often accused of "copying" Innova discs, but Innova copied the Cyclone when it released the Gazelle a year later. The Cyclone is still a great fairway driver today.
Millennium Polaris LS: This disc pushed all the technical specs at the time of it's release, and it was released in the upgraded "Millennium" plastic. It proved that disc golfers would pay more for better plastic and started the march toward premium plastics.
Gateway Sabre: Gateway's first disc was a winner. You have to throw it hard to get good results, but it is a super-predictable flyer.
Innova TeeBird: If any other disc has a Roc-like following, it is the TeeBird. It flies long and straight with a predictable fade...It is often called a "longer Roc." Despite all the hype over high-speed drivers, top throwers still use the TeeBird in distance competitions.
Innova Valkyrie: The disc that started the rim wars. After the Valk, every year somebody had a new disc with a bigger rim that supposedly flies faster, farther, better, makes you coffee, etc. Tech standards have put a cap on that, so we will see what the next innovation in discs design will be.
Innova Firebird or Discraft Predator: Everybody loves an overstable pig. These two are the class of that field.

There are a lot of newer discs out there...Wraith, Surge, Destroyer, yada, yada, yada. I'll let the test of time work it out before I put them on this list. One new disc that will be on the list is the
Quest Turbo-Putt: For years, Innova's patent on golf discs allowed them to de facto control the evolution of the golf disc. Discs like the 10M Brick and Turbo Putt signaled a new era in golf disc design and forced the PDGA to tighten the definition of what is a golf disc. Because of that it will impact what we are throwing long after it disappears from the scene.

[ERicJ]

Great list :cool:

[Olorin]

Types of Rocs:
-Original Roc - “Wings & Rings”, named because of the logo,- flat XD style Roc, made in San Marino
-Classic San Marino Roc - original dome, made in San Marino. The San Marino was more like the Rancho than the Ontario[1] (http://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/#_ftn1)
-Classic Ontario Roc - slightly more domey, made in Ontario
-New Classic Roc - The Classic Roc is still in limited production and will be available from time to time. It is now in the category of an all-around disc. The two closest discs to it are the XD (not quite as stable) and the Ching Sniper which is a little faster and a little more stable.[2] (http://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/#_ftn2)
-Proto KC Roc - it has the disc going through the Innova logo and reads "the Choice of Champions."
-After Proto KC Roc - Has a bar through it; it came just after the Proto KC Rocs.
-Original KC Roc - made in Rancho Cucamonga. The first run KC Rocs have a bar going through the Innova logo and reads "Champion Discs."
-KC Roc - made in Rancho Cucamonga. (The number of Xs refers to the number of years that Climo is listed as World Champion. Eg.- 9 times = 9x.)
-Super Roc - made in Rancho Cucamonga. The "Rancho" mold is identical to that of the USDGC Champion Roc, the KC Pro Roc and the staple, DX Roc. The plastic is sleek and grippy like old school Pro Line material. The Super Roc will provide a unique feel and enhanced durability. Sales of these discs will help support the 2004 PDGA World Championships in Iowa.
-Special Edition (SE) Roc - made in Rancho Cucamonga
-Special Edition (SE) Super Roc (178-180g) - made in Rancho Cucamonga
-Champion Edition (CE) Roc - made for the USDGC.
o2001 version is the Rancho, sharper nose (i.e.- not blunt). Most overstable.
o2002- regular blunt nose. Least overstable of the CE Rocs
o2003- is the blunter nose KC 8x mold
o2004 – blunt nose
o2005- the "pre-release" run of 1000 '05s are a remake of the Ontario mold , as are the Special Blends (SBs). Since the SBs were advertised as straighter than the regular '05s, my guess is they're not blunt.[3] (http://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/#_ftn3)
-Pro Roc (used to be the Super Roc). Available in SE plastic in 2004.
·All of the discs referred to by the city are not of the old style mold. The classic Roc was subsequently produced from the old original mold, or one like it, for those that craved the old disc. The "new" type of Roc has been produced with three different city names on the bottom, first San Marino, then Ontario, and now Rancho Cucamonga.
·The flat XD style Roc (sometimes referred to as the Wings & Rings Roc) and the original dome Roc were made in San Marino. Then came the slightly more domey Ontario Roc. Now Innova has gone back to the flatter dome a la
San Marino Roc, and they are stamped with Rancho Cucamonga and this includes all KC Rocs, Super Rocs, and
the ever sought after Original KC Rocs and Special Edition Rocs. Finally to further complicate things there are some San Marino Rocs (both XD style and domed style) that some refer to as "triple ring Rocs." Look at the under side and in the middle you will see 3 distinct rings.
·Different KC Rocs have different characteristics. The 8x are stable. The 9x are understable.

History of the different kinds of Rocs:[4] (http://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/#_ftn4)

1) Original Roc 21.2 cm diameter - narrow rim, one of the first discs with a bead, and was basically a beaded version
of the XD. This disc was first released around 1987, and discontinued around 1992.

2) Classic Roc - was a re-release of the original mold and came out around 1995 (I think)

3) New mold Roc - which we have several variations of today - is a 21.7 cm disc and was first released in '88/89.
Basically they beefed up the rim of the original and made it significantly more stable.

3.1) San Marino Early runs were made in San Marino, CA (and are the most sought after - selling for $50+ on eBay). Early runs had the same "wings n rings" stamp as the original mold, and had just a little dome to the flight plate. “A couple runs in '91/92 were super flat and hard - the best rocs they ever made, IMO.”
·The San Marino was more like the Rancho than the Ontario. (Dave D.)[5] (http://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/#_ftn5)

3.2) Ontario Manufacturing was moved to Ontario, CA and a new mold was produced around 1994/95. These runs tended to be just a little domier in general than most San Marino's - but were still awesome straight flyers.

3.3) Rancho Cucamonga Rocs. The Rancho Cucamonga Rocs were yet another version/mold of the same disc - and early runs had retained the shape of those early 90's runs of San Marino's Hard and Flat and very stable.

3.4) KC Rocs The onset of the KC plastic has produced a number of variations of the new style Roc (I think all Rancho mold's - with a slightly different plastic) I can't really speak to the quality or flight variations of the Ranchos/ or KC's as I haven't gotten through my stack of San Marino's yet

3.5) Pro (SE) Rocs in 2004. The Pro Roc should be available Mar 2004. The Pro Roc is overstable in tests. Pro Rocs were made from the standard DX Rancho mold, which is the more stable version.[6] (http://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/#_ftn6) The "Rancho" mold is identical to that of the USDGC Champion Roc, the KC Pro Roc and the staple, DX Roc. The plastic is sleek and grippy like old school Pro Line material. The Super Roc will provide a unique feel and enhanced durability. Sales of these discs will help support the 2004 PDGA World Championships in Iowa.
See https://zonedriven.com/catalog/product_info.php/products_id/239

·With the proto-Rancho and the proto-KC Roc; there is a difference between the two. The proto-Rancho was made in heavier weights only and had an Innova choice of champions rainbow stamp, the disc came in white only and has a disc through the logo. The proto KC is similar but has an enormous nipple that actually indents the top of the disc (exactly like the 8 time KC Roc). The logo was also similar but there are differences there as well. The Innova stamp doesn't say choice of champions and is a bar through the logo and not a disc. (from Joyup Lee)

USDGC Rocs
2003 more stable than 2002. (Dave D., 3/5/03)

2006:
·The "Star" Rocs are likely to be pretty hot for several reasons. They look and feel great. This is also the true "first run" of Star Rocs since Innova created the line. Star Rocs are stable (not overstable) like the Special Blend. They fly straighter and hold an incredible line.
·Star Rocs are pretty much the standard "Rancho" mold.
·Special Blend is more the "Ontario-style" mold, making them less stable than regular Champion or Glow. Special Blend Rocs should also prove popular as this is quite likely the final run of Special Blend discs. These, like the Star Rocs, are pretty straight flyers. Both gold and silver Special Blend Rocs are available. They are flippin' sweet.
·Regular Champion and Glow are all overstable pigs. If you prefer a meat hook, here you go.
·There was only one, truly clear disc. It weighs 180 and has a ghost "Eye Roc" stamp. Its whereabouts shall remain unknown at this time.

The numbers referenced refer to post #s on the PDGA Discussion Board.

[1] (http://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/#_ftnref1) Dave Dunipace, #136649 - 02/02/04 08:46 AM

[2] (http://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/#_ftnref2) Dave. D.

[3] (http://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/#_ftnref3) CE Roc info mostly from Felix Sung but collected from Dave D’s info

[4] (http://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/#_ftnref4) From Craig Gangloff on February 21, 2001

[5] (http://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/#_ftnref5) #136649 - 02/02/04 08:46 AM

[6] (http://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/#_ftnref6) Dave Dunipace, #149626 - 03/03/04 05:59 PM

[Olorin]

See Roc City (http://seeroccity.com/)

[Olorin]

Champion Roc Collector (http://www.ceroccollector.com/)

2001 ZoneDriven Stamped "Clear" Innova CE Roc
Official Collector Guide & Registry (http://www.zonedriven.com/registry.htm)

[shirfan]

Every thread about Rocs ends up reading like The Silmarillion.

Shark posts are so much easier... "they fly great, try one".

[tomjulio]

Shark posts are so much easier... "they fly great, try one".


...was thinking the exact same thing.

[PhattD]

Types of Rocs:
-Original Roc - “Wings & Rings”, named because of the logo,- flat XD style Roc, made in San Marino
-Classic San Marino Roc - original dome, made in San Marino. The San Marino was more like the Rancho than the Ontario[1] (http://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/#_ftn1)
-Classic Ontario Roc - slightly more domey, made in Ontario
-New Classic Roc - The Classic Roc is still in limited production and will be available from time to time. It is now in the category of an all-around disc. The two closest discs to it are the XD (not quite as stable) and the Ching Sniper which is a little faster and a little more stable.[2] (http://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/#_ftn2)
-Proto KC Roc - it has the disc going through the Innova logo and reads "the Choice of Champions."
-After Proto KC Roc - Has a bar through it; it came just after the Proto KC Rocs.
-Original KC Roc - made in Rancho Cucamonga. The first run KC Rocs have a bar going through the Innova logo and reads "Champion Discs."
-KC Roc - made in Rancho Cucamonga. (The number of Xs refers to the number of years that Climo is listed as World Champion. Eg.- 9 times = 9x.)
-Super Roc - made in Rancho Cucamonga. The "Rancho" mold is identical to that of the USDGC Champion Roc, the KC Pro Roc and the staple, DX Roc. The plastic is sleek and grippy like old school Pro Line material. The Super Roc will provide a unique feel and enhanced durability. Sales of these discs will help support the 2004 PDGA World Championships in Iowa.
-Special Edition (SE) Roc - made in Rancho Cucamonga
-Special Edition (SE) Super Roc (178-180g) - made in Rancho Cucamonga
-Champion Edition (CE) Roc - made for the USDGC.
o2001 version is the Rancho, sharper nose (i.e.- not blunt). Most overstable.
o2002- regular blunt nose. Least overstable of the CE Rocs
o2003- is the blunter nose KC 8x mold
o2004 – blunt nose
o2005- the "pre-release" run of 1000 '05s are a remake of the Ontario mold , as are the Special Blends (SBs). Since the SBs were advertised as straighter than the regular '05s, my guess is they're not blunt.[3] (http://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/#_ftn3)
-Pro Roc (used to be the Super Roc). Available in SE plastic in 2004.
·All of the discs referred to by the city are not of the old style mold. The classic Roc was subsequently produced from the old original mold, or one like it, for those that craved the old disc. The "new" type of Roc has been produced with three different city names on the bottom, first San Marino, then Ontario, and now Rancho Cucamonga.
·The flat XD style Roc (sometimes referred to as the Wings & Rings Roc) and the original dome Roc were made in San Marino. Then came the slightly more domey Ontario Roc. Now Innova has gone back to the flatter dome a la
San Marino Roc, and they are stamped with Rancho Cucamonga and this includes all KC Rocs, Super Rocs, and
the ever sought after Original KC Rocs and Special Edition Rocs. Finally to further complicate things there are some San Marino Rocs (both XD style and domed style) that some refer to as "triple ring Rocs." Look at the under side and in the middle you will see 3 distinct rings.
·Different KC Rocs have different characteristics. The 8x are stable. The 9x are understable.

History of the different kinds of Rocs:[4] (http://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/#_ftn4)

1) Original Roc 21.2 cm diameter - narrow rim, one of the first discs with a bead, and was basically a beaded version
of the XD. This disc was first released around 1987, and discontinued around 1992.

2) Classic Roc - was a re-release of the original mold and came out around 1995 (I think)

3) New mold Roc - which we have several variations of today - is a 21.7 cm disc and was first released in '88/89.
Basically they beefed up the rim of the original and made it significantly more stable.

3.1) San Marino Early runs were made in San Marino, CA (and are the most sought after - selling for $50+ on eBay). Early runs had the same "wings n rings" stamp as the original mold, and had just a little dome to the flight plate. “A couple runs in '91/92 were super flat and hard - the best rocs they ever made, IMO.”
·The San Marino was more like the Rancho than the Ontario. (Dave D.)[5] (http://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/#_ftn5)

3.2) Ontario Manufacturing was moved to Ontario, CA and a new mold was produced around 1994/95. These runs tended to be just a little domier in general than most San Marino's - but were still awesome straight flyers.

3.3) Rancho Cucamonga Rocs. The Rancho Cucamonga Rocs were yet another version/mold of the same disc - and early runs had retained the shape of those early 90's runs of San Marino's Hard and Flat and very stable.

3.4) KC Rocs The onset of the KC plastic has produced a number of variations of the new style Roc (I think all Rancho mold's - with a slightly different plastic) I can't really speak to the quality or flight variations of the Ranchos/ or KC's as I haven't gotten through my stack of San Marino's yet

3.5) Pro (SE) Rocs in 2004. The Pro Roc should be available Mar 2004. The Pro Roc is overstable in tests. Pro Rocs were made from the standard DX Rancho mold, which is the more stable version.[6] (http://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/#_ftn6) The "Rancho" mold is identical to that of the USDGC Champion Roc, the KC Pro Roc and the staple, DX Roc. The plastic is sleek and grippy like old school Pro Line material. The Super Roc will provide a unique feel and enhanced durability. Sales of these discs will help support the 2004 PDGA World Championships in Iowa.
See https://zonedriven.com/catalog/product_info.php/products_id/239

·With the proto-Rancho and the proto-KC Roc; there is a difference between the two. The proto-Rancho was made in heavier weights only and had an Innova choice of champions rainbow stamp, the disc came in white only and has a disc through the logo. The proto KC is similar but has an enormous nipple that actually indents the top of the disc (exactly like the 8 time KC Roc). The logo was also similar but there are differences there as well. The Innova stamp doesn't say choice of champions and is a bar through the logo and not a disc. (from Joyup Lee)

USDGC Rocs
2003 more stable than 2002. (Dave D., 3/5/03)

2006:
·The "Star" Rocs are likely to be pretty hot for several reasons. They look and feel great. This is also the true "first run" of Star Rocs since Innova created the line. Star Rocs are stable (not overstable) like the Special Blend. They fly straighter and hold an incredible line.
·Star Rocs are pretty much the standard "Rancho" mold.
·Special Blend is more the "Ontario-style" mold, making them less stable than regular Champion or Glow. Special Blend Rocs should also prove popular as this is quite likely the final run of Special Blend discs. These, like the Star Rocs, are pretty straight flyers. Both gold and silver Special Blend Rocs are available. They are flippin' sweet.
·Regular Champion and Glow are all overstable pigs. If you prefer a meat hook, here you go.
·There was only one, truly clear disc. It weighs 180 and has a ghost "Eye Roc" stamp. Its whereabouts shall remain unknown at this time.

The numbers referenced refer to post #s on the PDGA Discussion Board.

[1] (http://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/#_ftnref1) Dave Dunipace, #136649 - 02/02/04 08:46 AM

[2] (http://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/#_ftnref2) Dave. D.

[3] (http://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/#_ftnref3) CE Roc info mostly from Felix Sung but collected from Dave D’s info

[4] (http://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/#_ftnref4) From Craig Gangloff on February 21, 2001

[5] (http://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/#_ftnref5) #136649 - 02/02/04 08:46 AM

[6] (http://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/#_ftnref6) Dave Dunipace, #149626 - 03/03/04 05:59 PM

This is why I don't use roc. This is also why I prefer discraft. I'm old and this is ay too complicated lol.

[Three Putt]

Lotsa good info there.

One thing kinda confused me...people often talk about "made in San Marino." I was eavesdropping on a bunch of guys talking to Dave Dunipace at the KC Wide Open one year, and he said there was no "San Marino" plant. He said in the early days they had molds and bid out work to other injection molding facilities in LA. The discs said "San Marino" because that is where the P.O. Box he opened to receive business mail was. According to what I heard back then, Innova did not make their own discs until they opened the Ontario shop.

A lot of the "San Marino" Rocs were made at the Ontario plant, and a lot of the "Ontario" Rocs were made at the Rancho Cucamonga plant because they did not change the underside engraving on the disc when they moved. The Aviar engraving said "San Marino" during the entire time they had the Ontario plant and for about the first 10 years they we using the Rancho Cucamonga plant.

So the location on the underside really only tells you where Innova was located when that mold piece was created. The location on the Millennium Sentinel for years said "San Marino" even though it was introduced two or three years after Innova moved to Rancho Cucamonga. It uses the same core piece as the Stingray, and the Stingray mold was created before the Ontario plant opened. That piece wore out a few years ago, and the disc now just has www.innovadiscs.com on the underside

One of the enduring myths is the story that the San Marino Roc had to be re-tooled because the mold broke during the move to the Ontario plant, but the truth is that the mold was used at the Ontario plant for several years. It wore out from all the runs made of it and had to be replaced.

[Olorin]

Threeputt- That's some interesting scoop to add to the saga.

[Olorin]

Every thread about Rocs ends up reading like The Silmarillion.

Some of us like the Silmarillion. ;) But not everyone can be a Maia.

-Mithrandir

P.S.- After Frodo destroyed the ring it was really a Roc, not an eagle, that saved him and Sam.

[Three Putt]

People accuse me of drifting threads all the time, but I have never drug a discussion of a golf disc into a conversation about middle-earth. :rolleyes:

[Donovan]

People accuse me of drifting threads all the time, but I have never drug a discussion of a golf disc into a conversation about middle-earth. :rolleyes:

LMAO, but contributing to it by mentioning it is a completely different thing altogether, right? :D :p ;)

[PhattD]

People accuse me of drifting threads all the time, but I have never drug a discussion of a golf disc into a conversation about middle-earth. :rolleyes:

Yeah but how cool would it be to play a course through the mines of Moria?

If your disc gets melted by the Balrog it's a stroke penalty and you play from wherever the biggest puddle lands.

[ERicJ]

P.S.- After Frodo destroyed the ring it was really a Roc, not an eagle, that saved him and Sam.Wha, wha, what!?! Did you just spoil the ending for me?? :eek:

[atl scott]

There is also the Ching roc or "full color" roc. This is a dx disc that has a stamp on top in full color and tends to have a slightly flatter top for this reason. These fly great. Oh, also glow rocs fly great as well.

Nothing beats a nice beat in roc.

[PanicKJ]

I am a newbie, six months deep into this sport. I have been using skeeters since I started as I found them great for putting, driving, mid-range. The skeeter puts like a lazer, from thirty feet out I still aim just left of the pole and it goes straight in.

However I was looking for something a little more stable than my skeeter for forearm shots and I wanted to try out a roc.

I got a Star Ontario Roc from a friend today. Going to try it out and probably buy it off of him. It is an X-out that was purchased at innova in Rock Hill.

Now is this roc going to be more on the stable side or more overstable? I can't really tell yet from throwing it as I threw it only twice in the round today and had two terrible shots! Not the discs fault, I was just playing bad.
Also what would be a good price to offer him for it?

[sidewinder22]

I have a hard time sidearming a dx roc with any power. A star roc should be slightly more stable. I use gators and drones for midrange forearms as they are overstable enough to handle some snap. Fair price new $10-15.

[PanicKJ]

Thanks, I may look into a gator or a drone then. I need a mid range that I can flick as I play in wooded courses and many times do not have the room for a backhand.

[bazkitcase5]

it takes a lot of finesse to side arm a roc

rocs are good because they will teach you what your doing wrong when throwing a disc - if you release with a little wobble, the roc will show it to you (drives are usually good at hiding flaws in your form; wobble being one of these) - learning to throw a roc properly will mean improving your form, which allows you to throw drivers better and farther - people who can not throw rocs, usually do not have good form, and can not throw them very well, which is why they do not like them

throwing side arm uses more spin, which generally causes more wobble than a backhand throw - if you can learn to throw a roc side arm with no wobble, you will be really impressed with what you can do with it

[sidewinder22]

I have to put a lot of hyzer angle on the release sidearming a roc and it still turnsover and flies left or rolls. I also don't find the roc comfortable in my hand as a two finger flick.

[SimonCarr]

To sidearm a roc (or any other midrange for that matter), you are going to want to slow down your throwing motion and condense your reach back. Throw at about 50% power and flick your wrist like a normal sidearm shot.

Most players like rocs because they are predictable. The fade of a roc is always going to be pretty consistent, and if you have good form throwing them 300'+ is possible. I prefer the buzzz because it holds a straighter line, althought a beatup roc is a thing of beauty.

[BrotherDave]

stupid question, what exactly is an understamp roc? Is it a classic roc in the rancho style or what?

[kpc2004]

ive got a DX classic ontario roc that i found and ive always disliked it and wondered how people are so in love with roc's lol but after reading this i now see that i have yet to try out a real roc since this is one of the classic ones...looks like ive got some further research to do out on the course before i make any more judgements on the roc :rolleyes:

[Ryan P.]

ahhh what a great disc for those of us that use it. it just does whatever we want it to.

but i have no idea how in the world anyone can throw any disc with a bead forehand. i have tried and tried and tried, but it just won't come out of my hand right.

and i know this isn't about a buzzz, but does any one else flip buzzzs over far too easily if they aren't careful?

[YonderScott]

stupid question, what exactly is an understamp roc? Is it a classic roc in the rancho style or what?

I have a bottom stamped Roc, you can see the picture of it next to my name. As I read somewhere, it in no way implies I've reached rock bottom.

I throw sidearm, and the first few months I played I hated the Roc...read alot about it, the Buddah of disc, it just flipped over on me and went no where. But I recently went back to it and must say I love it. Throwing it sidearm, as someone said a few posts back, you have to back down the power a bit. I know this may not be the correct way to throw a disc but, when I reach back, just before I start to bring my arm back around I pause for a split second. And this helps ME back off a bit. I can only throw it 200' max, but I can put it where I want it.

[kpc2004]

is the "thrower" roc any good? i see a bunch of them on ebay and i was just curious. it says Throwers are the USDGC fundraising Rocs....are they any different than other rocs?

[john campbell]

I've been playing since Aug. '08, 2-4 rounds a week, and finally bought a mythical, magical Roc. I couldn't understand what all the fuss was about until I nailed my first 100'+ with it after throwing it less than a dozen times. I'm a believer.

[sidewinding]

I've been playing since Aug. '08, 2-4 rounds a week, and finally bought a mythical, magical Roc. I couldn't understand what all the fuss was about until I nailed my first 100'+ with it after throwing it less than a dozen times. I'm a believer.

The Roc is too much disc for 100'. You should do like the top pro's and follow this basic rule of thumb.

over 400' throw a Teebird

300'-400' use the legendary Roc

200'-300' time to break out the putter

Anything under 200' If you can't hit it with your mini you have serious form issues. :D

[Lewis]

I got a DX Roc at an Ice Bowl last year, and I also had trouble throwing it at first. I didn't get the hype, as mine seemed overstable to a fault.

However, I figured all the hype can't be for nothing, so I committed myself to working with it. I started by throwing it as a "second shot" when I'm playing alone, and gradually got the feel for it. As I learned how to throw it, it started to get beat up a bit. As it got beat up, it started to get easier to control. I'm beginning to see what all the hype is about. :)

[john campbell]

The Roc is too much disc for 100'. You should do like the top pro's and follow this basic rule of thumb.

over 400' throw a Teebird

300'-400' use the legendary Roc

200'-300' time to break out the putter

Anything under 200' If you can't hit it with your mini you have serious form issues. :D

I have serious form issues. I can't throw much over 300' unless it's downhill. :(

[kpc2004]

lol funny....does anyone have one of the new san marino champ roc's? i think im gonna buy one with the "west sayeed" stamp cause there are a lot on ebay, just wondering if anyone else had one and likes it

[Lewis]

The Roc is too much disc for 100'. You should do like the top pro's and follow this basic rule of thumb.

over 400' throw a Teebird

300'-400' use the legendary Roc

200'-300' time to break out the putter

Anything under 200' If you can't hit it with your mini you have serious form issues. :D

I hope you're joking. :rolleyes:

[GreenJacket]

lol funny....does anyone have one of the new san marino champ roc's? i think im gonna buy one with the "west sayeed" stamp cause there are a lot on ebay, just wondering if anyone else had one and likes it

I've got one of the new Champ San Marinos, mine is 176grms. It is a very nice workable disc. Using a combo of nose and release angles it can fly any line in its range. However, so can a dx rancho roc. If you buy a high end plastic roc go to the Zonedriven.com pro shop and support the USDGC. Support the tourny not the re-sellers, they update the inventory once a year and the new stuff sells fast.

[kpc2004]

interesting ill have to check it out

[johnt1969]

People accuse me of drifting threads all the time, but I have never drug a discussion of a golf disc into a conversation about middle-earth. :rolleyes:

Drug.... did I hear something about Drugs?? :D

[johnt1969]

Types of Rocs:

History of the different kinds of Rocs:[4] (http://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/#_ftn4)

1) Original Roc 21.2 cm diameter - narrow rim, one of the first discs with a bead, and was basically a beaded version
of the XD. This disc was first released around 1987, and discontinued around 1992.



By the way... I don't know if anyone is interested but I could probably get my hands on a bunch of these. I have a friend who has probably 10 or 15 of them. Most new. I think there are a bunch with the "football" stamp as well. They probably wouldn't be cheap. But I do know someone with them and he would probably sell.

If the picture attaches... some of them look like this.

By the way... they fly great. You should try them out. :D

[discflinger]

Drug.... did I hear something about Drugs?? :D

Coming from a guy with a name like "joint", and dude, there's no such thing as a hippie anymore. Just passing it along.

[surge99]

Does anyone know when the 2009 USDGC Rocs are coming out? Is it Feb or March?

[BrotherDave]

The original 21.2 cm diameter disc came back in '95 as the "Classic Roc." It has the "Roc" name, but it should be considered a completely different unrelated disc to the other Roc's. It is nothing like a Roc.



Why do you say the Classic Roc is nothing like a Roc? Because I was thinking of getting one for P&A since my tiny hands like the feel of a Roc.

[discflinger]

Classics make great putters. I especially like them on head wind putts, but the Fort (Fort Wayne) is Classic crazy and most every guy throws them or an XD for every putt.

[kette_master]

There is also the Ching roc or "full color" roc. This is a dx disc that has a stamp on top in full color and tends to have a slightly flatter top for this reason.

Oh yes, flat-top Roc! These tend to be more high-speed stable. You can put more on 'em when you throw and work great in a head-wind.

[valkyriefb11]

So for someone who has never thrown a ROC, but would like to try one out ... what is the best first ROC to get?

[Olorin]

So for someone who has never thrown a ROC, but would like to try one out ... what is the best first ROC to get?

Just get your basic DX Roc with a stamp like the one in this picture (http://www.innovadiscs.com/discs/roc.html).

[Lewis]

Yeah start with a DX, and expect it to get less overstable as you play with it.

[RustyP]

The guy who wrote Joe's Universal Flight Chart (Blake Takkunen) was in Dallas over the weekend and gave a little clinic for several of us, and one of the things we talked about were what makes a "good" Roc. I've always been a huge fan of the Ching (flat-top) Rocs, but he told me that they're the worst ones in terms of glide. He also explained that a Rancho Roc with a slight/gradual dome leading up to a flat center can still fly on a flat s-curve line even when well-used, whereas a well-used Ching will flip over and hold that line until it hits the ground.

Ching = fast and high-speed stable with very little glide, beats in very quickly (few months of constant use to become a turnover disc)

Rancho = still high-speed stable, not *quite* as fast, but with much more glide...takes MUCH longer to break in to a turnover (possibly a year or more)

What you want to look at is the disc's profile...on a Rancho you want the dome to be a gradual slope from the edge of the disc and the middle of the disc (where the circle is on the current DX stamp) to be flat, not domey. Blake said his personal favorites were from 2003...he said the DX Roc plastic from that year is best in terms of glide. Every run will be slightly different in terms of shape...this is caused by the how quickly the disc cools after it comes out of the injection mold, which is heavily affected by the outside temp and humidity at that given time.

[DeafDiscGolfer]

Every run will be slightly different in terms of shape...this is caused by the how quickly the disc cools after it comes out of the injection mold, which is heavily affected by the outside temp and humidity at that given time.

Why can't Innova build an environment-controlled cooling booth to cool the discs properly instead of leaving it out in the open area where it can be exposes to unpredictable temp/humidity??

Makes no senses...:confused:

[taxman]

Why can't Innova build an environment-controlled cooling booth to cool the discs properly instead of leaving it out in the open area where it can be exposes to unpredictable temp/humidity??

Makes no senses...:confused:

probably because the number of disc golfers with this level of concern is extremely minimal.

no offense intended to anyone who has this level of concern.

my opinion is the first time you throw that disc it is going to hit something (ground counts) and no longer be in the exact same shape as it was when it was formed. heck, my discs sit in their bag all summer in the trunk on hot days. that must warp them at least slightly. and then all winter as well. every champ innova disc i've seen so far once it gets to warm the top starts to cave in. just my opinion of course.

[RustyP]

probably because the number of disc golfers with this level of concern is extremely minimal.

no offense intended to anyone who has this level of concern.

my opinion is the first time you throw that disc it is going to hit something (ground counts) and no longer be in the exact same shape as it was when it was formed. heck, my discs sit in their bag all summer in the trunk on hot days. that must warp them at least slightly. and then all winter as well. every champ innova disc i've seen so far once it gets to warm the top starts to cave in. just my opinion of course.


All that's true, but the differences in runs caused by temp/humidity can make almost an entirely new disc...much more of a drastic change than hitting some trees or warping a little. Great example...the Champion Sidewinder vs. DX Sidewinder. If you can find both of these in a store, hold them up side by side and look at the bottom wing of the disc...the Champions have a flat, almost convex bottom wing (like the SW is supposed to), but the new DX ones cooled differently, which caused a concave bottom wing (almost Orc-like). Granted, I haven't thrown a DX SW, but based on the wing shape it would probably fly more like an original mold Beast.

[kpc2004]

after reading about how good the roc seems to be i decided to give it another try...i just traded and got a brand new roc and im gonna see if it will take the place of my buzz

[Three Putt]

after reading about how good the roc seems to be i decided to give it another try...i just traded and got a brand new roc and im gonna see if it will take the place of my buzzWell, if you are going to take a Roc and a Buzzz and expect the Roc to knock your socks off and be so much better than the Buzzz that you want to convert on the spot, I'm afraid you will be disappointed. The Buzzz is a very solid disc and should perform very well compared to the Roc.

Where the Roc really shines is when you get several Rocs in various stages of wear. A new Roc will start out more stable than a Buzzz and over time will beat into a straight flyer and then a predictable turnover disc. You will find that you only need Rocs for all your mid-range shots, whereas with the Buzzz you would need to combine it with the Wasp and Meteor to cover all of your shots. The main advantage to using just the Roc is the comfort and confidence you build. You only have to get a comfortable grip with one disc as opposed to three. That's the kind of effect that you will not see until you put the discs in your bag and use them over a long period of time.

[garublador]

Also, Rocs tend to be better at pure hyzers than the Buzzz. Buzzzes tend to want to flatten out where a Roc will hold the hyzer the whole way. This type of hyzer is nice because it makes range control much easier and it a really consistant shot.

[solomon.trenton]

i prefer the wolf and most highly the buzzz.

[ddevine]

When I returned to DG in 1998 after a roughly 10 year layoff did an internet search to figure out what discs most people threw. Roc and Aviar topped the list so I bought one of each. I did not like the DX plastic as much since the flight path changed so quickly given the large number of trees that I was hitting with the Roc. So I tried a KC Roc and have never looked back. If I had to play with only one disc this would be the one.

Any newbies out there should try playing rounds with only 2 discs all Spring, a midrange like a Roc and a putter like an Aviar. Just two discs, not multiple versions of each. Once you can make your midrange do whatever you want (straight, right, left) then include a meat and potatoes driver like a Tee-Bird. Try to avoid the super overstable stuff until you have mastered technique. You would be surprised at the number of courses you can tear up with only a putter, a midrange and a driver. Once you have mastered those then you can move on to specialty discs for rollers and super crushes. I never could understand the hackers who insist on having a bag full of the latest drivers when all they can do with it is spray stall crash hyzers all over the course.

[shirfan]

I'm a Shark thrower, but picked up a "new" DX San Marino Roc recently due to all the talk here.

My field test didn't go as planned... it just kept turning over. I was throwing into a fairly brisk headwind, but I got none of the controlled fade I expect with a Shark. Could I have a mutant disc? Should a Roc be so easily influenced by wind? (The Sanny feels very stiff compared to a DX Shark and isn't very domey.)

[garublador]

I'm a Shark thrower, but picked up a "new" DX San Marino Roc recently due to all the talk here.

My field test didn't go as planned... it just kept turning over. I was throwing into a fairly brisk headwind, but I got none of the controlled fade I expect with a Shark. Could I have a mutant disc? Should a Roc be so easily influenced by wind? (The Sanny feels very stiff compared to a DX Shark and isn't very domey.)The Sannies are special runs of Rocs that don't fight wind nearly as well as the Ranchos. They're more understable and a different mold than regular prodution Rocs. When people just say "Roc" they're normally talking about Rancho Rocs, which are the normal DX and KC Rocs.

[taxman]

this summer my brother and i were at the local course and the craziest thing happened. we were on hole 6 which is a shorter hole, so he gets out his san marancho rock with the bottom stamp in champion plastic that they only made one of and was originally given away as an offering to the gods of golf. well somehow it made it into the hands of this guy that lives up in the porcupine mountains here in michigan. the guys name is Oley farsincski. he's one of the oldest living voodoo mountain folk (bet you didn't know that voodoo started in the UP eh?) well when he got his hands on that disc he made a special little voodoo mark on the disc and well he won a lot of bar fights with it. when he died he left it to his only living reletive (my brother). so anyways that how my brother got this voodoo roc. so he gets it out to throw for his drive on hole 6. he lets that disc go and just as it left his hands it split in two! my thought was "thats the crappiest voodoo disc i can imagine", but i could not beleive my eyes. the first half of that disc landed in the basket for an ace, and the second half flew off over the trees. i finished the hole with par and my brother went up and grabbed the half a roc out of the basket. we then went up to hole 7 and we look to see which placement the pin is at (they move it occassionally from the top of the pole to the bottom. and again i could not beleive my eyes. the other half of the roc was in the basket of hole 7. we debated what to do but in the end agreed that we would just mark hole 7 as a 0. well my brother put the other half of the roc back in his bag with the first half and we went on our way. then on hole 8 he reaches into his bag to grab his putter. he always throws his putter on holes longer than 600'. and he accidentally grabs the roc. and it's hole again!

and that is why i now have a bag of nothing but rocs in verying molds and state of breakin. i always have a brand new roc that i never throw EVER. and one roc that is of such an old mold that it actually has mold growing on it (from the time i used it as a plate and never scraped off the potato salad that i didn't finish). ever since then i have scored a perfect 18 on every course.

[taxman]

sorry, i thought i'd have some fun at rocs expense. i really do like my roc.

[dangitboy]

San marancho. hahaha! good one

[Omega SuperSloth]

que paso

[discgolf757]

get a discraft elite z buzzz, way better thatn a roc, and my dg buddies agree

[Technohic]

get a discraft elite z buzzz, way better thatn a roc, and my dg buddies agree

I went with the Elite X plastic first but I think now that I have thrown one, I might go for the more durable yet grippy one in FLX

[waynewf]

I still love my Rocs...but I have given in to the Buzzz and am not looking back. I still carry a 150 star Roc from the Japan open in my bag as well...it's a little better for longer hyzers for me as well as low shots that require very slow arm speed (usually because I'm up against a tree!).

[waynewf]

I went with the Elite X plastic first but I think now that I have thrown one, I might go for the more durable yet grippy one in FLX

I love my Z plastic...but I'm going for an FLX soon as well...

[zenbot]

Why do so many people use a disc that they'll have to perpetually buy again and again?

You are addicts. Not for the rock but for the roc.

[Omega SuperSloth]

cause champ rocs are retardedly expensive

[garublador]

Why do so many people use a disc that they'll have to perpetually buy again and again?Roc guys never cycle Rocs out of their bags, they just cycle more in. It's not that we have to buy more, it's that we want to.

[Three Putt]

Why do so many people use a disc that they'll have to perpetually buy again and again?:confused: What disc do you throw that you DON'T have to buy again and again?

[mashnut]

:confused: What disc do you throw that you DON'T have to buy again and again?

I was wondering the same thing. The difference with the roc isn't how quickly it beats, just how useful it is at all stages of beating compared to many discs that just get beat into rollers and are done.

[trifocal]

this summer my brother and i were at the local course and the craziest thing happened. we were on hole 6 which is a shorter hole, so he gets out his san marancho rock with the bottom stamp in champion plastic that they only made one of and was originally given away as an offering to the gods of golf. well somehow it made it into the hands of this guy that lives up in the porcupine mountains here in michigan. the guys name is Oley farsincski. he's one of the oldest living voodoo mountain folk (bet you didn't know that voodoo started in the UP eh?) well when he got his hands on that disc he made a special little voodoo mark on the disc and well he won a lot of bar fights with it. when he died he left it to his only living reletive (my brother). so anyways that how my brother got this voodoo roc. so he gets it out to throw for his drive on hole 6. he lets that disc go and just as it left his hands it split in two! my thought was "thats the crappiest voodoo disc i can imagine", but i could not beleive my eyes. the first half of that disc landed in the basket for an ace, and the second half flew off over the trees. i finished the hole with par and my brother went up and grabbed the half a roc out of the basket. we then went up to hole 7 and we look to see which placement the pin is at (they move it occassionally from the top of the pole to the bottom. and again i could not beleive my eyes. the other half of the roc was in the basket of hole 7. we debated what to do but in the end agreed that we would just mark hole 7 as a 0. well my brother put the other half of the roc back in his bag with the first half and we went on our way. then on hole 8 he reaches into his bag to grab his putter. he always throws his putter on holes longer than 600'. and he accidentally grabs the roc. and it's hole again!

and that is why i now have a bag of nothing but rocs in verying molds and state of breakin. i always have a brand new roc that i never throw EVER. and one roc that is of such an old mold that it actually has mold growing on it (from the time i used it as a plate and never scraped off the potato salad that i didn't finish). ever since then i have scored a perfect 18 on every course.

Taxman has been flyfishing with Jim Harrison. Those shrooms really get the brown trout on the DG....cuz it didn't involve killing, cooking and eating something with several bottles of wine. He might have enjoyed the walk, if he could bring his dogs along.


Funny Michigan post.

[billnchristy]

The original 21.2 cm diameter disc came back in '95 as the "Classic Roc." It has the "Roc" name, but it should be considered a completely different unrelated disc to the other Roc's. It is nothing like a Roc.

The Roc shouldn't be called a Roc because it flies nothing like the REAL Roc....the mo-fo'in classic roc.

They should've called it the "freedom rock"

[mynameisdbabz]

the roc sucks, try a buzz or drone

[Huk Finn]

Contrary to what I hear, my Star San Marino 20years Roc is more domey than my R-Pro Ontario.
I can throw a giant anhyzer with both and they don't come back though.
I also have a hard time believing that the Roc has the same fade rating as a Gator.
Although Innova's site says it does.

[zenbot]

:confused: What disc do you throw that you DON'T have to buy again and again?
I have all three stages of wear covered in champ and star plastic. They haven't changed a bit.

Gator, Rhyno, Stingray.

[simpletwist]

Hmmm... Well I'd like to play all of those courses in Middle Earth. Losts of lost discs in Mirkwood. Rivendell is the nicest and most forgiving. There are severe elevation changes in the Misty Mountains, a very difficult course; using an Orc here helps. The 2 courses in Hobbiton are very short. :rolleyes:

But back to the mythical Roc. I love my Buzzz, but heard all the love for the Roc. Twin brothers from different mothers? So I bought one. Maybe it's the plastic, maybe it's the mold, maybe it's the weight, probably the weight, but I have no use for the Roc.

[AirMcNair]

Just read this thread and thought I would bump it so people can read some history of the roc that is on the first few pages.

[Tricky]

the roc sucks, try a buzz or drone

i love how absolute this is... i guess i need to get rid of my rocs and stock up on the buzzzs.

[cali]

I <3 Roc

http://www.discgolfscene.com/profile/10895/pictures/album_3505

[IronJack]

So I'm a Buzzz guy. I've started throwing Comets, and I like them a lot. I hear the Roc is a good compliment to the Comet, so I'm thinking of giving them a try. Here's the thing, I've never thrown a Roc, and when I've looked at them, the variety is very wide, so I need your help...

I'd like recommendations on what I should get. Weights. Plastics. Molds. Whatever is recommended, it must be readily available and reasonably priced.

Thanks!

[New013]

So I'm a Buzzz guy. I've started throwing Comets, and I like them a lot. I hear the Roc is a good compliment to the Comet, so I'm thinking of giving them a try. Here's the thing, I've never thrown a Roc, and when I've looked at them, the variety is very wide, so I need your help...

I'd like recommendations on what I should get. Weights. Plastics. Molds. Whatever is recommended, it must be readily available and reasonably priced.

Thanks!

http://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=22884&highlight=Roc

[IronJack]

http://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=22884&highlight=Roc

Thanks for the link... that's the ticket.

[joesouthfla]

Types of Rocs:
2006:
·The "Star" Rocs are likely to be pretty hot for several reasons. They look and feel great. This is also the true "first run" of Star Rocs since Innova created the line. Star Rocs are stable (not overstable) like the Special Blend. They fly straighter and hold an incredible line.
·Star Rocs are pretty much the standard "Rancho" mold.
·Special Blend is more the "Ontario-style" mold, making them less stable than regular Champion or Glow. Special Blend Rocs should also prove popular as this is quite likely the final run of Special Blend discs. These, like the Star Rocs, are pretty straight flyers. Both gold and silver Special Blend Rocs are available. They are flippin' sweet.
·Regular Champion and Glow are all overstable pigs. If you prefer a meat hook, here you go.
·There was only one, truly clear disc. It weighs 180 and has a ghost "Eye Roc" stamp. Its whereabouts shall remain unknown at this time.

I have a Roc that is a Star Roc +. What does the + stand for?

[IronJack]

A slanted inner rim.

[zepphead33]

Are glow rocs flat top?

[Three Putt]

No.

I suppose somebody could have a flat top glow, so some may or may no exist. But generally no, glow has nothing to do with flat tops.

[zepphead33]

Oh, I swear I heard somewhere they were flat. Maybe I is crazy.:|

[Three Putt]

"Glow" has been around for a long time. I've seen runs of glow that were pretty hard and flat-ish. We got some glow Rocs last fall that were softer and super-duper domey. I've seen everything in-between. You can't make huge generalizations about glow, it's just DX with an additive and it varies like DX.

At any rate, flat tops are the discs that have been through the full-color stamp machine (even though it doesn't make a full color stamp any more.) Recently people have started calling any old Roc that doesn't have much dome a flat top. That just confuses the issue. Just because a Roc looks pretty flat doesn't make it flat top.

[GLong]

up until recently, every single dx glo i had seen was super super flat. as flat as a ching.

[Stoney311]

If interested there are some true flat tops for sale at this link: CLICK ME FOR FLAT TOP ROC
(http://discgolfclub.org/proshop/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=976)

[deBebbler]

I bought 2 glow rocs recently, and they were definitely domey.

[InnocentCrook]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roc_%28mythology%29

Cool. Apparently a roc can pick up an elephant, drop it from high above to kill it, then eat it at it's own leisure.

[lion]

very good thread

[BADman]

i thought id grab this thread up from the deeps - i have a question for yall Roc-ers

anybody throw the star rocs? my DX have been beating in, and I'm working on two of em, and I want a stable mid to compliment them... star gonna be a good choice?

[Prototype]

This is a great read! I suggests that it be sticky'd for all of the new guys to read and for us that forget the variations.

[Tfire25]

I read this earlier and figured I'd bump it do to the first couple pages. Pretty good read on the history of the roc.
I have a roc that says millennium golf discs on it but is a rancho roc. Is millenium a part of innova somehow? Sorry if it's a noob question just curious.

[emerica1842]

I read this earlier and figured I'd bump it do to the first couple pages. Pretty good read on the history of the roc.
I have a roc that says millennium golf discs on it but is a rancho roc. Is millenium a part of innova somehow? Sorry if it's a noob question just curious.

I think millennium is essentially the Canadian branch of Innova, similar to how Discmania was supposed to be Innova's European branch. However you can readily buy all 3 brands at most online retailers and larger local stores.

[Johnny Depth]

I purchased a dx roc last Monday and it quickly became my primary midrange. I love it!

[sonny]

I think millennium is essentially the Canadian branch of Innova, similar to how Discmania was supposed to be Innova's European branch. However you can readily buy all 3 brands at most online retailers and larger local stores.

I do not think this is correct. I hope some actual expert in disc history will correct me it I am wrong, but I think Millenium was an effort by John Houk to introduce golf discs in premium plastics. Innova molded the discs, and was almost certainly involved in the design of Millenium discs, but I don't remember any sort of Canadian angle.

[MrGlass01]

yeah ummm millennium is definitely not canadian!!! eh!!

[Three Putt]

Millennium was in Texas, so that's almost Canada. :p

[thugjitsu]

Read a bit where someone said the 9x rocs are understable?! I disagree, the 9x i have is the most hss roc ive ever thrown, it wont turn ever, only slightly in a headwind. Its the only roc ive hit ~350 on a dead straight line with no wavering off its line.

[Tfire25]

Millennium was in Texas, so that's almost Canada. :p

Hey! I bring back this thread that has some awesome posts from you and you repay me by comparing Texas to Canada! :gross: I did lol though.

[Three Putt]

Read a bit where someone said the 9x rocs are understable?! I disagree, the 9x i have is the most hss roc ive ever thrown, it wont turn ever, only slightly in a headwind. Its the only roc ive hit ~350 on a dead straight line with no wavering off its line.There is a lot of gross overgeneralization that goes on with golf discs.

I've gone on a tirade a time or two on this site because the Ontario Roc gets dismissed as a flip disc. It's not a flip disc, it's a slightly overstable mid out of the box. It's not AS overstable as a Rancho, not as dependable into the wind and beats into an understable disc more quickly than other Rocs, but it's by no means a flip disc out of the box. If you flip it out of the box, your form sucks. Sorry.

The 9X has the same sort of problem in that the 8X were beefy and the 10X were beefy. The 9X had some meat, but just were not as beefy as the 8X and 10X. They pretty quickly became the red-headed step child of the KC Pro Roc family. I'd throw a 9X any day, and I'd throw one way before some of these 11X I see people paying a lot of money for. The 9X were good Rocs. Not great Rocs, but good Rocs.

[pspunch]

good explanation three putt. I've never had an Ontario mold roc and always kinda wondered what they were about.

[thugjitsu]

Interesting that you say that, I mean it's an opinion but my 9x is my favorite roc, I have yet to try a 8x or 10x though.

[Crazy Runner Guy]

If you want to get in on the Roc thing just buy a 172-175g DX Roc and use the crap out of it.
Is there any benefit to throwing one any lighter? I saw that Discgolfcenter has a few in the 140s and six of them at 110 (!).

[garublador]

Is there any benefit to throwing one any lighter? I saw that Discgolfcenter has a few in the 140s and six of them at 110 (!).Any lighter than what I said? It depends, but for disc golf for people throwing over 300' but less than 400' you probably won't see a benefit. They might be a bit longer but won't fight the wind as well and won't be as easy to control. Going heavier will just make them a bit shorter with minimal wind fighting benefit.

[kcplease]

This thread makes me want to buy a dx and kc pro roc and give then a try. I'm a believer in buzzzes, but maybe its time to try something else.

[Streets]

Thread resurrection!

I went through this thread when I first started throwing Rocs and it was very helpful to learn the mythology/history of the disc. With the advent of the Roc3 perhaps we need to add this piece to the history.

Obviously this has been covered in other threads but this is a comprehensive history, so anyone with knowledge of this disc should chime in.

Why is it called Roc 3? what makes it different? etc.

[Rocaholic74]

Well..I would assume it's called the Roc3 because they had to change the mold in order to get it flatter and up the speed from a speed 4 to a speed 5. But then if you think about the different molds it should've been called the Roc4...hence the 4 different molds of rocs available. Anyone else have any thoughts on the subject?

[justactnormal]

I'm also confused by the nomenclature. Originally I remember seeing RC3, which made sense as meaning "Rancho Cucamonga 3" like the 3rd version of that particular mold. I believe Dave D. was quoted as posting that in the PDGA forums. RC3 not Roc3. That made sense, even though I thought that there was just one Rancho mold, which would be the 3rd version of the Roc, and could justifiably be called the Roc3.

I'm not looking at a picture of the stamp or Innova's site, but if I remember correctly the Big Bird stamp says Roc3, right next to the bird, not RC3. I'm wondering why the switch and if it's Rancho 3, then where is Rancho 2?

Another puzzler is that I believe that they are just marked R on the bottom, with no way to differentiate between this mold and other Rancho Rocs, b/c the tooling still says Rancho. When they become production, other than the change in Champ blend, which will surely change again in the future, how would you tell the difference? Will a regular Champ Rancho Roc ever become production?

Innova, you have found another way to confuse and complicate what could otherwise be a straightforward naming system. I guess at least they announced a mold modification and didn't just drop a new mold with the same name, but it's almost more confusing to add another mold variation and still call it a Roc, which by my count should be called a Roc4.

Ont., SM, Rancho, Roc3/RC3.... yeah, that's 4 for sure.

[justactnormal]

Wait a second, I just thought about it.

Maybe the + mold was considered RC2 if it was a modified Rancho mold, then this change could be RC3.

Still RC3 would make more sense than Roc 3. Maybe the Big Bird stamp is a misprint, if they just added a 3 behind the Roc and future stamps will say RC3. Probably just wishful thinking though that Innova would follow a clear and logical way to name and identify their discs.

[DiscJunkie]

I believe that Dave Dunipace said that this is the the 3rd version of the Rancho mold, so it's called a RC3 or Roc3. Either one works.

[Toro71]

Going into my second month of this new hobby and I keep hearing about the ROC. Usually in a low respectful tone with everyone nodding their heads in agreement at this sacred flyer. Please educate me.

What is your experience with this disc and what are the different variations (ontario vs classic)? What is your favorite plastic and weigth.

I also can't help but notice Innovas love of R-O-C (CRO, ORC).

Thanks for the education.

Kev.

Question, is it 4.6 months or 4.6 years you've been into 'this hobby?'

Anyway, no matter, my two cents on the Roc: most (most) die-hard Roc-ers are old(er) school players. I have some sort of bio-mechanical deficiency...I generally can't make any Roc, in any plastic, from any CA town, behave. I don't care for them. Just personal preference. I'd say do what the others are saying, drop $7 on a DX and see how it works for you.

But (again, IMO) there are too many better mid-range choices out there now to mold yourself (pun intended) into a 'roc man' just because of its 'aura.'

[Toro71]

Wait a second, I just thought about it.

Maybe the + mold was considered RC2 if it was a modified Rancho mold, then this change could be RC3.

Still RC3 would make more sense than Roc 3. Maybe the Big Bird stamp is a misprint, if they just added a 3 behind the Roc and future stamps will say RC3. Probably just wishful thinking though that Innova would follow a clear and logical way to name and identify their discs.

I thought it was b/c:

1) "Classic" Roc, fairly recently re-released, but the orig is version 1.0, re-release as "classic" 1.1
2)Rancho/Ontario etc Roc, more or less versions 2.0, 2.1, 2.2, etc
3) the Roc3, a bit "faster," supposedly flatter/mildy beefier rim, hence version 3.0

[Rocaholic74]

So in that line of thinking of the Rancho molds you have the standard DX Rancho, you have the KC Pro Rancho, you have the R Pro Rancho then you have the Champion Rancho (RC3) mold.....but haven't we forgotton the past Champ Rancho molds from 2001 through 2011 in the USDGC rocs that were Rancho molds? Then what about the SE Rocs that were Rancho's too. Each Roc listed above is different and have different domes, different noses (some are blunt, some are thin or sharp), some are flat tops, etc... THIS IS WHERE I'M CONFUSED!!


AHHHHHHHHHH..my mind is beginning to hurt...I love them all but need clarification on the different Rancho molds.

[THE GOV'NA]

lol...isnt it rancho mold,rancho + mold and then RC3 mold..that would be 3 versions of the rancho?

[morefadeplz]

It isn't variations of rancho/san marino. It's:
-Classic Roc (small diameter)
-Big Diameter Roc (Rancho/San Marino/Ontario)
-Roc 3 (Which is really just a champion plastic flat roc (like the old ching mold, or the flat DX that East factory makes))

[THE GOV'NA]

but its not called ROC 3..its RC3 as in Rancho Cucamonga 3

[THE GOV'NA]

It isn't variations of rancho/san marino. It's:
-Classic Roc (small diameter)
-Big Diameter Roc (Rancho/San Marino/Ontario)
-Roc 3 (Which is really just a champion plastic flat roc (like the old ching mold, or the flat DX that East factory makes))

also if what your saying were to be true..id would be called the ROC6 or something

[Toro71]

The other thing about the Roc is skill level. The fact that this thread exists demonstrates how varied the Roc is. Inconsistent IF you think of the Roc as one disc. What the Roc seems to me to be is an entire line of similar mids.

For a newer player, and i'm still somewhat in that category, it's just unnecessarily, ridiculously confusing. Highly skilled players/long time Roc throwers, who've been around for much of it's history, are more apt to be able to make any single mold work for all their mid-range needs, but I'm not that guy.

[Rocaholic74]

lol...isnt it rancho mold,rancho + mold and then RC3 mold..that would be 3 versions of the rancho?


I see where you are going but if you look at all the different types of Rocs out there....DX, KC Pro, R Pro, Champ and CE (old school 2001-2005 USDGC), Champ (2006 to present USDGC), SE and SB Rocs.....each Rancho mold is different in some way....some have blunt noses, some have sharp noses, some are domey and some are flat....it seems like there are more than 3 different Rancho molds out there....

[THE GOV'NA]

The other thing about the Roc is skill level. The fact that this thread exists demonstrates how varied the Roc is. Inconsistent IF you think of the Roc as one disc. What the Roc seems to me to be is an entire line of similar mids.

For a newer player, and i'm still somewhat in that category, it's just unnecessarily, ridiculously confusing. Highly skilled players/long time Roc throwers, who've been around for much of it's history, are more apt to be able to make any single mold work for all their mid-range needs, but I'm not that guy.

i have to agree..the roc world can be very confusing,but all u need to know is u can do everything with a rancho..most champs= super overstable,KC pro=overstable,dx=stable,beat dx=understable

[Toro71]

but its not called ROC 3..its RC3 as in Rancho Cucamonga 3

Exactly...if the company itself can't even figure out how many versions there are....?

Hot mess, IMO.

To OP: keep your buzzz, get a Fuse for US mid. If the Roc works out as an OS mid, beautiful. I'm still trying to solve that hole in my bag. Right now I'm using a combo of a champ Rhyno and a perfectly flat Firebird, depending on shot/distance.

In spite of my venom-spitting on the Roc, I'm going to give the new one a shot (eventually) to see if the talk is true, that they're flat, HS stable, with a nice late-ish fade...but I'm skeptical.

[THE GOV'NA]

yeah but all those are just little tweaks..rc3 is the 3rd definatively different rancho mold

[Toro71]

i have to agree..the roc world can be very confusing,but all u need to know is u can do everything with a rancho..most champs= super overstable,KC pro=overstable,dx=stable,beat dx=understable

Just because i'm a sucker, I do have a couple 12x KCs. I do use it for shorter thumber/'hawks/trouble/'trick' shots.

I just can't get the roc to work for me RHBH, and in today's market, why force it?

[Toro71]

I see where you are going but if you look at all the different types of Rocs out there....DX, KC Pro, R Pro, Champ and CE (old school 2001-2005 USDGC), Champ (2006 to present USDGC), SE and SB Rocs.....each Rancho mold is different in some way....some have blunt noses, some have sharp noses, some are domey and some are flat....it seems like there are more than 3 different Rancho molds out there....

Sounds like you may be somewhat conflating "molds" and "blends/plastics."

[THE GOV'NA]

i agree..much in the same way that i cant throw a buzz..it seems to evacuate my hand prematurely..i feel like i need that bead and some feel like the bead is a doomsday device

[kyflash]

When will
All the people come to realize that Innova
Suffers from consistency issues?
Purchase a WASP

For all the arguments about Roc vs Buzzz, they are not the same type of mid.
A Wasp is a Roc that never changes and you dont have to know what city, year, or who was president when it was made. They are all the same.

[THE GOV'NA]

i like the "consistancy issues"..it allows me to find multiple discs in a mold im comfortable with that fly differently..seems like a winner to me..if i went with a wasp id have to have 2 to 3 other different molds that i may not be comfy with.

also z plastic feels so slippery in my dry hands

[Rocaholic74]

I will always have at least 2 Rocs in my bag no matter what other mids I may have in there from different companies. The Roc is without a doubt the best mid ever made from any company. People can preach about the Buzz (great disc and I have one in the bag) or the Wasp or Hornet or blah, blah blah...The Roc can handle anything...period!! Here is list of the mids in my bag:

175g Glow 10x Replica KC Pro Roc
174g DGCR Flat Top DX Roc
173g JO Champ Roc (on the sidelines 180g 4X Kenny Glow and 180g 2005 ZD Champ Roc)
180g Ontario Zone Drive Roc
173g Icon Ghost
173g Glow Z Buzz

That's right....6 mids which enable me to handle every situation imaginable...plus I have the DX SM Cobra and Champ Stingray in there too...I love my mids...I can do damage with these suckers on any course and in any condition...you may that there is some major overlap in my bag but...I like those overlaps...gives me options on what I want to happen.

[Streets]

The way I look at the RC3 vs. Roc3 naming confusion is that the Rancho is kind of the standard Roc right now. Sanny's and Ontario's usually come in limited runs or just one plastic. The Rancho is THE Roc right now, and this is the third version of this standard Roc.

[THE GOV'NA]

mids im carrying..FROM MOST OS TO MOST US

177 sanny Q sent
180 ring roc
180 11x roc (freshy)
177 11x roc (beat nicely)
177 SMRD roc 8/10
177 star mako (flat)
173 ontario cobra (flat/fresh)
167 ontario cobra (flat/seasoned)

[THE GOV'NA]

I AGREE WITH STREETS

[Rocaholic74]

I AGREE WITH STREETS

I agree with this statement but if you look at the old Champ Rocs from 2001 to 2005 and then again from 2006 to 2012....do you think these are all made from the same Rancho Roc mold?

[THE GOV'NA]

nooo some are sanny molds...lol..and yes its prolly the same or close to the same mold..the difference is in the blends of plastic and how they stick in the mold,or cool or whatever

[Rocaholic74]

They made Champion Rocs in the Sanny mold back in 2001 to 2005? I know they re-did the Sanny mold in 2008 when they made the Thrower and West sayeed USDGC Roc but those were the only Sanny mold rocs I was aware of until know...you learn something new everyday.

[justactnormal]

The way I look at the RC3 vs. Roc3 naming confusion is that the Rancho is kind of the standard Roc right now. Sanny's and Ontario's usually come in limited runs or just one plastic. The Rancho is THE Roc right now, and this is the third version of this standard Roc.

I can kinda get this line of thinking in a way, but when I think about it reeeeealy hard (too hard) it doesn't hold up. Innova even describes the Ontario, San Marino and classic as being different molds altogether. The Rancho is the most current version, but it isn't THE Roc. It's one of several that have similar feels, but different characteristics. I know San Marino's are stock in Star and have been for some time, and I just got an Ontario with the factory F2 stamp and 2011 in the original stamp, so it can't be that old either. It's more correct to call these new Rocs RC3 than Roc3, IMO.

Anyway, as it's been said Dave described this as being the 3rd version of the Rancho mold, hence RC3. I believe that the original is version 1, all Ranchos regardless of plastic and the + mold to be version 2, then this one version 3. So, RC3 regardless of what's on the stamp. Confusion could arise from it being marked R on the bottom, the same as RC1's, if you will. If you looked at an original Rancho and a RC3 side by side, you couldn't tell them apart if the stamps were the same, or if they were blank. Same tooling, same markings, similar feel, but 2 different discs.

It doesn't really matter in the end though. If it's a good disc, then people will throw it. If not, it'll be as popular as a Lycan.

[Tpro]

When will
All the people come to realize that Innova
Suffers from consistency issues?
Purchase a WASP

For all the arguments about Roc vs Buzzz, they are not the same type of mid.
A Wasp is a Roc that never changes and you dont have to know what city, year, or who was president when it was made. They are all the same.

Wrong Sir. Ive held in my hands two plusish Wasp molds in the last couple months. VERY weird. The new ones ARE different. :gross:

[ftb george f]

my favorite is 2001 first run ce roc

[Tpro]

I agree with this statement but if you look at the old Champ Rocs from 2001 to 2005 and then again from 2006 to 2012....do you think these are all made from the same Rancho Roc mold?

The pre '06 Rocs are Way different. I Like the 05 spec.s (the forgotten Roc). Pick up the Nate Doss USDGC roc or a Rings Roc (USDGC) they are MUCH different than the Battles, Kenny 4x, 05s etc!

[Streets]

I AGREE WITH STREETS

Thank you!

[Rocaholic74]

The pre '06 Rocs are Way different. I Like the 05 spec.s (the forgotten Roc). Pick up the Nate Doss USDGC roc or a Rings Roc (USDGC) they are MUCH different than the Battles, Kenny 4x, 05s etc!


That's why I don't think labeling these RC3 is correct when you look at all the different types of Champion Rocs that Innova has put into circulation throughout the years.

[grodney]

Re: the history of Rocs, here's a thread I made back in '05, suggesting someone compile an exhaustive list of the different types of Rocs. It never went anywhere, but Dave and Craig (and others) had some fun info.

http://www.pdga.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=18754

[Tpro]

That's why I don't think labeling these RC3 is correct when you look at all the different types of Champion Rocs that Innova has put into circulation throughout the years.

agreed. :hfive:

[Toro71]

They made Champion Rocs in the Sanny mold back in 2001 to 2005? I know they re-did the Sanny mold in 2008 when they made the Thrower and West sayeed USDGC Roc but those were the only Sanny mold rocs I was aware of until know...you learn something new everyday.

Gets to be sort of like, you need to be a DG archeologist to find replacements. LOL. Raiders of the Lost Orc!

[Streets]

I can kinda get this line of thinking in a way, but when I think about it reeeeealy hard (too hard) it doesn't hold up. Innova even describes the Ontario, San Marino and classic as being different molds altogether. The Rancho is the most current version, but it isn't THE Roc. It's one of several that have similar feels, but different characteristics. I know San Marino's are stock in Star and have been for some time, and I just got an Ontario with the factory F2 stamp and 2011 in the original stamp, so it can't be that old either. It's more correct to call these new Rocs RC3 than Roc3, IMO.

Anyway, as it's been said Dave described this as being the 3rd version of the Rancho mold, hence RC3. I believe that the original is version 1, all Ranchos regardless of plastic and the + mold to be version 2, then this one version 3. So, RC3 regardless of what's on the stamp. Confusion could arise from it being marked R on the bottom, the same as RC1's, if you will. If you looked at an original Rancho and a RC3 side by side, you couldn't tell them apart if the stamps were the same, or if they were blank. Same tooling, same markings, similar feel, but 2 different discs.

It doesn't really matter in the end though. If it's a good disc, then people will throw it. If not, it'll be as popular as a Lycan.

I see your point. I guess when I think of Roc my mind just automatically goes to the Rancho since I haven't been playing too long. I've only ever had ranchos except the San Marino you see in my profile pic. When I hear of other Rocs it's always special runs, usually, with the exception of the star sannies. Good points though!

[kevdiv48]

When will
All the people come to realize that Innova
Suffers from consistency issues?
Purchase a WASP

For all the arguments about Roc vs Buzzz, they are not the same type of mid.
A Wasp is a Roc that never changes and you dont have to know what city, year, or who was president when it was made. They are all the same.

This man speaks the truth. Couldn't agree more. Flat, heavy Z Wasp and I am set for the OS mid slot.

[thechamp]

This man speaks the truth. Couldn't agree more. Flat, heavy Z Wasp and I am set for the OS mid slot.

Except for a few years when they weren't very stable at all. That's when a lot of people dropped the Wasp, but they might come back to them now.

[solomon.trenton]

When will
All the people come to realize that Innova
Suffers from consistency issues?
Purchase a WASP

For all the arguments about Roc vs Buzzz, they are not the same type of mid.
A Wasp is a Roc that never changes and you dont have to know what city, year, or who was president when it was made. They are all the same.
discraft is far from consistent. mvp is one of the best. so is lat