Competition Rule 3.3 (11)

[jenb]

When does "overt failure or refusal to enforce the rules of disc golf competition" ever result in competitors being disciplined? I mean, I can see it being applied against a rogue TD, but in my two tournaments, I've seen a ton of times people decided not to enforce rules.

For example, one person's disc went in deep water and a person on the other side of the stream fished it out with a retriever, but didn't want to return it by throwing it over the stream because he would receive a penalty throw under the rules. But everybody in his group told him to go ahead, and they wouldn't call it.

In another example, a new player who had never been to a tournament before had both marking and stance violations on every throw that wasn't off the tee, because she was placing her mini inches in front of her disc and standing next to her mini instead of behind it. However, no one called her on it during the tournament, but mentioned it to her when the tournament was over.

Is failing to call a violation in turn a violation of the player conduct rules? When would that ever actually be enforced?

It seems to me that the rules that are dependent on being called within 3 seconds and seconded basically make calling them optional. Is that reasonable?

I know it kind of seems nit picky to ask something like this, but I recently played with a couple who are involved in a DG club, and they said a couple of their female members attended a tournament and said they would never go to another one because people are too uptight about rules. So I don't want to feel like I am putting myself at risk for giving people in lower divisions a break. If that's the case, I'll just play way up from now on.

[Skunk]

Having played in a few tournaments myself I've noticed that the higher level you play, the more strict they are about the rules. The basic ones you want to follow are: keeping your foot behind your lie, be careful on your follow through on putts, and use basic golf etiquette/courtesy (no phones or talking during throws and keeping out of visual for whoever is throwing (furthest out goes first)).

If you ask me I will tell you it depends on the group. Some people are cool and will let you play your game if you're not winning and then tell you the rules later. On the other hand, you can get that 1 person in the group that will stick to the rules and make the round miserable for everyone. I know a guy that keeps a 30' string in his bag to measure putts when needed (it's for his own good and not to screw other players)....another guy carries a tape measure (dick).

Your best bet is to try and play by the rules in your casual game. That will help you in tournaments in the future.

[gcr_russell]

If you ask me I will tell you it depends on the group. Some people are cool and will let you play your game if you're not winning and then tell you the rules later. On the other hand, you can get that 1 person in the group that will stick to the rules and make the round miserable for everyone. .

Why is there a problem with playing by the rules in a tournament? How can you realistically play Disc Golf competitively and not play by the rules? I would venture to say that the players like yourself are much more of a buzzkill. The guys who want to get away with playing however they like. Regardless of the fact that ratings, tourney placement, and common tournament etiquette are at hand.

[ArcheType]

Most often, the people who are huge rule sticklers are pros, or scrubs. Either they have serious cash on the line, or aren't good enough to win legitimately, and are trying to gain strokes.

edit: this is only in cases of the extreme like above. stroking someone for throwing a retrieved disc back is just a dick move.

foot faults, marking lies appropriately, etc., are all fair rules, and should be enforced.

[gcr_russell]

Most often, the people who are huge rule sticklers are pros, or scrubs. Either they have serious cash on the line, or aren't good enough to win legitimately, and are trying to gain strokes.

Again with the negative attitude towards players who play by the rules. I would be more likely to think someone not as interested in playing by the rules in trying to gain strokes.
I havent ever called anyone on anything, because I've not seen anything to call a player on. I have warned them that they may have been close to foot faults, and debated rules walking up to lies before, but never in a negative way.
I dont confront anyone negatively, but if necessary would come down on a player making foot faults, courtesy violations, practice throws, and all that business.




edit- wrote this before your edit, Now I see you pretty much agree on the fair rules issues.

[ArcheType]

I'm with ya, the "basic" rules for dg should be followed. using a mini and not flipping the disc is not that invasive to be an issue, just do it. but rules for practice throws weren't meant to stop people from throwing back discs that they retrieved from water hazards.

[Skunk]

Why is there a problem with playing by the rules in a tournament? How can you realistically play Disc Golf competitively and not play by the rules? I would venture to say that the players like yourself are much more of a buzzkill. The guys who want to get away with playing however they like. Regardless of the fact that ratings, tourney placement, and common tournament etiquette are at hand.


I just want to point out that I have no problem playing by the rules....ever. However, there are some that nit pick EVERY rule to get an egde. If you're playing Pro or Open that's fine. But if you're playing Am and not gonna place...who gives a ****? Just play to have fun at that point.

My point is, if someone in the group doesn't care and sucks it up badly, what's the point in stroking them? Just make it enjoyable as possible and play your game. I'm all about etiquette and courtesy by the way.

[snappyfingers]

If you're going to play in a tournament setting, expect that the rules are going to be followed. And if you break the, and someone calls you, and you have an issue with that, then a tournament is probably not the best place for you.

But calling someone on a throw when they're just giving back another player their disc is a cheap move.

Lots of times I think it depends on the group but for the most part everyone should be following and enforcing the established rules.

[Skunk]

I have warned them that they may have been close to foot faults, and debated rules walking up to lies before, but never in a negative way.
I dont confront anyone negatively, but if necessary would come down on a player making foot faults, courtesy violations, practice throws, and all that business.


Then we agree.


using a mini and not flipping the disc is not that invasive to be an issue, just do it.


Unless the rules have changed...you don't have to use a mini or flip your disc. You can play it where it lies.

[Skunk]

If you're going to play in a tournament setting, expect that the rules are going to be followed. And if you break the, and someone calls you, and you have an issue with that, then a tournament is probably not the best place for you.

But calling someone on a throw when they're just giving back another player their disc is a cheap move.

Lots of times I think it depends on the group but for the most part everyone should be following and enforcing the established rules.



DAMN STRAIGHT :thmbup:

[ArcheType]

Unless the rules have changed...you don't have to use a mini or flip your disc. You can play it where it lies.

The rules haven't changed, but there are always those players, at least at my level (bad) who want the extra 9" closer to putt, but don't want to take the time to use a mini, so they just want to flip their previous disc.

[Skunk]

The rules haven't changed, but there are always those players, at least at my level (bad) who want the extra 9" closer to putt, but don't want to take the time to use a mini, so they just want to flip their previous disc.


Personally, I would let them know that they needed a mini to mark their disc. If they did not have one I would let it slide. What are you gonna do? Stroke them every time they throw? I don't think so.

[ArcheType]

Nah, but I'd make them putt from behind the lie. Especially if it's players that should know better. I carry extra minis for first timers, but people who are just lazy/don't care annoy me.

[Skunk]

Nah, but I'd make them putt from behind the lie. Especially if it's players that should know better. I carry extra minis for first timers, but people who are just lazy/don't care annoy me.


Agreed.

[SmoothSailor]

I play by the rules and like it. I played in a Sharon Jenkins run tournament earlier this month and didn't add my score correctly. When she pointed it out to me and gave me 2 strokes all I said was, "thanks, I'll count better next time," in a nice polite manner and didn't make that mistake again lol.

But I have called people for foot fault, moving bushes/branches out of their way, not counting OB strokes, jump putting within 30, talking while I throw. I'm not saying I'm perfect, but I know common rules and etiquettes.

[Skunk]

But I have called people for foot fault, moving bushes/branches out of their way, not counting OB strokes, jump putting within 30, talking while I throw. I'm not saying I'm perfect, but I know common rules and etiquettes.


As you should and so would I.

[Emoney]

It seems alot of disc golfers in am3 and some in am2 have a loose attitude towards rules. No one wants to be "that guy" that calls people out.

Everyone that plays tournies needs to understand a play by the rules. Every sport has rules and once you learn them its like riding a bike.

I played alot of ball golf before disc golf and understood that the only way to know how good iam is to play the game by the rules. If u foot fault on every putt, ur final score isnt reality.

Learning and obeying the rules will help u understand what level ur on.

I played in a couple am2 divisions last year and there were alot of rules broken. The last tourney i played i called a couple violations because u could tell that the guy understood the rules but wAs just trying to gain an edge.

Im playing in am1 this year and i expect every rule to be enforced. Im excited! Makes me feel professional.

[adhalla]

For example, one person's disc went in deep water and a person on the other side of the stream fished it out with a retriever, but didn't want to return it by throwing it over the stream because he would receive a penalty throw under the rules. But everybody in his group told him to go ahead, and they wouldn't call it.

I'm pretty sure this is about me from the Crowley tournament a few weeks ago. I climbed down into the ravine and fished a ladies disc out of the creek. There is no way to get it back without throwing it back across (or running a mile) so i threw it 30 feet across.

I think you have to look at the rules intent. Strictly speaking, that would be a practice through. But given the circumstances, I don't think any TD would stroke me for that. The point is, just use common sense. Know the rules and don't break them, but look at what the rule's purpose and intent is as well when enforcing them.

[billnchristy]

When a new tourney player is on my card and doing stupid things I will tell them what the rules are. I do it in a manner not to come across as a jerk but I basically say "Someone who WILL stroke you WILL see you so this is how it is supposed to be done" and they usually understand and comply.

The things that would irk me enough to actually stroke people would be: foot faults, talking/moving while putting, not counting properly. Beyond that I am cool.

[kyflash]

When a new tourney player is on my card and doing stupid things I will tell them what the rules are. I do it in a manner not to come across as a jerk but I basically say "Someone who WILL stroke you WILL see you so this is how it is supposed to be done" and they usually understand and comply.

The things that would irk me enough to actually stroke people would be: foot faults, talking/moving while putting, not counting properly. Beyond that I am cool.

Good answer.
I have told new people the same thing. Most times it is a case that they did not know the rules. It would be a bad first experience to have someone be that much of an enforcer, esp. if they are at a rec. level.
As far as flipping the disc, there is no advantage gained vs. using a mini. But the rules now say no flipping. If it is a casual round or league night and someone flips thier disc, I dont see it as a big issue.

[Cgkdisc]

From what I've heard from old timers, the original reason for not allowing flipping is some high profile player(s) in the 70s were suspected of, and in some cases seen to be, "multiple flipping" to get even closer to the pin. Mini marking became a rule to stop that behavior.

[Thumber]

From what I've heard from old timers, the original reason for not allowing flipping is some high profile player(s) in the 70s were suspected of, and in some cases seen to be, "multiple flipping" to get even closer to the pin. Mini marking became a rule to stop that behavior.

This is the first plausible explanation I've heard for the use of the mini.

I don't get why every player feels entitled to play in tournys. I know when I used to ball golf I didn't enter tournys because I sucked. I practiced until I got better and then started testing my skills in tournys. Same goes for DG. You shouldn't be playing in tournys if you don't know the rules. You shouldn't be playing in tournys if you think its ok to bend the rules becuase you won't place anyway.

[billnchristy]

By the same token you shouldn't drive if you are a drooling unibrow moron but it doesn't seem to stop anybody.

Seems everyone feels like they are entitled to something these days.

[barneco]

One thing that hasn't been mentioned is that, when playing competitively, YOU aren't the only one competing against the players on your card. Your entire division is relying on each group to police itself. How can it be a fair competition if one group is slack and another actually plays by the rules? The reaaon the rules are defined is to ensure everyone is playing the exact same game and scores can be accurately compared. Every player is responsible for enforcing this. The point of the original rule in question is exactly that....to spell out this responsibility to all competitors.

Now that said, I do believe in following the intent if the law rather than the letter. The problem here is that you'll rarely find a consensus on intent...its too subjective, so personally I try and play by the letter of the law unless there is NO doubt as to what that consensus might be(previous 30ft toss to return a disc for instance).

Also, my comments only apply to tournaments...casual play is entirely up to the participants, imho.

[DavidSauls]

In most sports, including disc golf, violations are called somewhat subjectively. I've never heard of this competition rule being applied---a player being sanctioned for failure to enforce a rule on someone else---but I suspect it's there as the ultimate lever against a group condoning really egregious rules violations by a player.

[rusch_bag]

This has always been part of the incentive of moving up divisions to me. The higher up you go, the more people know what they are doing and you don't have to worry about this stuff. Every tournament in rec and intermediate you are going to have those guys that are playing their first tournaments and do not actually know the rules of tournament play and are the ones that you are going to have to call out. I would help them though first before stroking them and whatnot as they just do not know any better even though it is their own fault for not knowing the rules. I think advanced is the most fun division to play as people know what they are doing, but they are still out there to have fun unlike a lot of the open guys, but it doesn't have the cash incentives.

To sum that up, if you play in low divisions, get used to helping people or being a dick.

[gregorvn]

This has always been part of the incentive of moving up divisions to me. The higher up you go, the more people know what they are doing and you don't have to worry about this stuff.

I had hoped this was the case, which is why at my last tournament I moved up from MA2 to MA1. Unfortunately, because my skills aren't that great, I was on the last card both rounds and ended up with the MA1 players who didn't seem to care much about the rules, blatantly drinking alcohol and smoking pot during the rounds.

Yes, I should have notified the TD and he would have DQ'd them, but disc golf is a small enough world that I don't want to be "that guy" who narc'd out other players. People can be jerks, retaliating for stupid stuff. I'll likely be playing future tournaments with them and don't really want to have to deal with that kind of animosity in the future. I fully realize that I'm part of the problem--if nobody reports this stuff, then it continues. :thmbdown:

I also find the seriousness (or lack thereof) about rules to be a regional thing. Folks up in New England, for example, seem to be much more careful about rules, even in the MA2 level.

[Sadjo]

I have my two youngest boys play by the rules as far as not walking in front of another player's disc, being quiet when others are throwing and making sure they mark their disc and throw from behind the marker.

Every now and then I'll bring one or both of them to league. The league I play in is very relaxed. My boys will point out when others aren't using a mini or standing behind their disc or throwing out of turn. It's really quite funny to hear/see my 5 and 6 year-old boys call other players out.

[DGtourist]

I had hoped this was the case, which is why at my last tournament I moved up from MA2 to MA1. Unfortunately, because my skills aren't that great, I was on the last card both rounds and ended up with the MA1 players who didn't seem to care much about the rules, blatantly drinking alcohol and smoking pot during the rounds.

Yes, I should have notified the TD and he would have DQ'd them, but disc golf is a small enough world that I don't want to be "that guy" who narc'd out other players. People can be jerks, retaliating for stupid stuff. I'll likely be playing future tournaments with them and don't really want to have to deal with that kind of animosity in the future. I fully realize that I'm part of the problem--if nobody reports this stuff, then it continues. :thmbdown:

I also find the seriousness (or lack thereof) about rules to be a regional thing. Folks up in New England, for example, seem to be much more careful about rules, even in the MA2 level.


I would be the same way.

You could have been the guy that quietly tells "that guy." Sic the dog on em, without being the dog.

[DavidSauls]

Luckily for me, among those I played tournaments with---Advanced Masters in South Carolina, in my particular case---rules enforcement isn't a big issue because rules compliance is the norm. Everyone seems to know the rules pretty well and play by them, pretty well.

[great white buffalo]

I think it was chrishysel that said something along the lines of: If you don't want to point out rule violations to someone because you dont want to be a dick, or you are far enough ahead of them that you dont have to worry about them. Then after the tourney you need to go and apologize to every player that was in that division who finished under the rule breaker because you personally screwed them out of a higher finishing place. Now those were not his exact words, but that was the basic idea. Think about it. Its true.

[AcesandChains]

First off, this is a great discussion. You can see many different view points and levels of enforcement from various players discussed.

What I think is most important is courtesy. That means not being a total prick about how you enforce the rules. Yes, you should point out rules violations unless it is truly nitpicky (like the 30' throw to return someone else's disc across the water.) But, there is a nice way, and a not so nice way.

In lower divisions, where there may be some doubt as to whether the player knows the rules (ie: Possibly Rec, and definitely Nov.) please be polite and point out the rules violation in a nice way. Personally, I would always point it out before giving an official warning for most of the lessor violations. If the player continues to violate the rules, then you will need to give them a warning per the rules (ie: with a second witness to the violation.) Another violation=penalty.

Of course, pointing out the rules before you start giving out warnings is optional, but it will go a long way to make it more fun for everyone when a player doesn't know the letter of the law. And yes, if you aren't nice about it, you will get a reputation. I know of several players who have a bad rep for being a stickler about the rules (and using this to gain a psychological advantage over other players.) I also know of several players who have a bad rep for cheating on purpose. So, there is a fine line to walk here.

In upper divisions, the rules should be enforced per the book, but again, there's no reason not to be polite about it.

And please remember, if it is the first time the player is playing in a tournament, be extra polite while enforcing the rules. We want them to come back and play again. And besides, is it too difficult to be nice about it?

And if it's your first time playing (and now you are worried about it after reading some of these posts) just mention to your group that it's your first time, and if you bend any rules, please point it out to you. Most people love to take someone under their wing and show them the ropes. This is the best way to have a good time, and learn the rules, during your first tournament.

[scarpfish]

Sometimes, I think a lot of these rules aren't called because the people who are supposed to call them on you, don't exactly know the rules themselves.

If it were ever practical to do so (and let's face it, it never is), I'd wish we make all players in PDGA events pass a written rules test similar to the one the NT players have to take, possibly followed by an on course evaluation round, before they can compete in a sanctioned event.

[DiscJunkie]

First off, we (DG club) start players off in league play.
As their game improves, we begin to introduce them to the rules so that they are used to competition AND rules enforcement.
Second, when I'm in a tournament i will absolutely call someone on a violation if it gives them an advantage. The Number One violation that I will call is step-putting inside the circle.
If the violation gives them an advantage, I will call it. If not, I'll let it go. Tournament play is tough enough without having a dick in the group.
Usually, after the fact, I will tell the player that they were in violation of the rules when they did something. They always take it well when it is given in the right way.

[DiscJunkie]

Sometimes, I think a lot of these rules aren't called because the people who are supposed to call them on you, don't exactly know the rules themselves.

If it were ever practical to do so (and let's face it, it never is), I'd wish we make all players in PDGA events pass a written rules test similar to the one the NT players have to take, possibly followed by an on course evaluation round, before they can compete in a sanctioned event.

I second this, "If it were ever practical to do so..."

[Knarfks]

My first "tournament" was a completely am setup that put experience players with novices such as myself. It was good, the experience players were there to teach. We went over basic rules before the first round such as mini use etc., only took 10 minutes. The number 1 rule was "Don't be a Dick"...follow the rules and don't put others in a bad position to have to call you and don't try to enforce rules that don't apply to the situation in intent (the water example).
I correct people if I see something wrong and I have never seen anyone do something wrong intentionally or take it poorly.

[gigemjonny]

In a recent tourny i played, The course was broken into two 15 hole courses, navigating the courses was a little tough for some. The open women finished one hole and walked to the wrong tee, One of them threw before they realized it was the wrong hole. This happened the day before to another group and they all threw and were stroked. The women decided not to stroke the one individual that threw. At the end of the day the women were tied and had to playoff, if the rule had been enforced, no playoff would have been needed.

[jenb]

Now I have just taken the Certified Official's Test and passed it, so I know that all of the little violations I see people in my group committing are going to drive me nuts from now on.

I'm presently registered to play Rec at an all ladies tournament, but I signed up before they posted any registrations online. Now that they have posted the registrations, I can see that the other ladies are all playing up quite a bit. My rating would fit in fine in the Intermediate, Advanced Master's, and even Master's divisions, so I would like to change divisions. I contacted the tournament director about it yesterday or the day before, I forget which, to see if I would be allowed to move up at sign in, or if I need to request a refund and reregister, but haven't heard back yet. If I don't request the refund in the next day or two, I'll be within the two week period where I can't get a full refund automatically, so I'm trying to figure out what to do.

I'm wondering if anyone else has ever requested a refund and tried to reregister found any problems doing that. For example, if you request a refund and then try to register for another division before being removed from the registration list, is there a problem created in the software or the like because the rules prohibit people from registering for two divisions in the same tournament?

[U_NICED_ME]

Just contact the TD via PDGA. It shouldn't be a problem to change divisions. Usually they will let you pay the difference the day of tourney.

[MNcyclone]

Wow, a bunch of Feld-turd wanabe's here.

I will only stroke someone if they got an advantage out of it. The situations are limited. Foot faults over the mark are always called, they give distinct advantages. Foot faults behind the mark will only be called if it gives a clearer line around an obstacle. Jump putting inside the circle. Thats about it folks.

Stroking someone for drinking/smoking is absurd. I understand that the PDGA desperately wants legitimacy so they can line their pockets with some nice cash from ESPN, but really, how does drinking give anyone a competitive advantage? Collared shirts? You've got to be kidding me! A designated size for marker discs? Stroking people for unmarked discs? Is anyone else throwing cactus clones but me? You even have to mark your mini!!! The PDGA is like any other group of humans. Its just that, lets face it, disc golfers were the guys getting beat up in high school and those that are slightly underwhelming socially. Get a big group of guys from below the fold together and you get a pile of insanity. A bunch of people trying to parlay their entertaining yet fringe sport into a self esteem boost or better yet a validating lifestyle.

Not only this, but they make rules that make no sense at all. The old stuck in a tree rule was perfect; put yer damn foot in the tree or take a stroke!! Chucked your disc OB without hitting the ground first? Thats a re-tee, not a convoluted discussion about where exactly the disc passed over an imaginary line 300' away and 40' in the air.

If the PDGA really wanted to make things enjoyable, they would reduce the time limit on shots and actually enforce it. Playing tourneys is just plain mind numbing when each shot requires two minutes of careful disc selection (do I want to throw my big bird rock, or my slightly more beat big bird rock?) and then a minute of looking constipated before finally throwing the disc. In fact, maybe I will channel some Feld-turd and bring a stopwatch to rounds, stroke people for time limit violations...

[Rondpitt]

Hmm.... I often wonder where the notion that "if everybody on my card is cool with it" comes from?

Creating a level playing field for your WHOLE division falls apart real quickly if one or two of the player groups are following a revised/reduced/diluted set of rules.

Every player (and thereby every card) has a built-in responsibility to follow the whole rule book. If that means stepping up, so be it.

In simple terms, there are only two times for a rules call on a card.
1. Either the offending player KNOWS the rule and is trying to gain an advantage. In this case you are being an advocate for EVERYBODY else in your division when you warn/penalize.
OR
2.The offending player KNOWS NOT the rule. In this case you are doing the player a huge favor by teaching them sooner instead of later.

Yep. Just 2 times.

Ron

And if you want to learn some Non-Richard ways to step up. Ask around. Not that hard to learn.

[Triflusal]

Wow, a bunch of Feld-turd wanabe's here.

I will only stroke someone if they got an advantage out of it. The situations are limited. Foot faults over the mark are always called, they give distinct advantages. Foot faults behind the mark will only be called if it gives a clearer line around an obstacle. Jump putting inside the circle. Thats about it folks.

Stroking someone for drinking/smoking is absurd. I understand that the PDGA desperately wants legitimacy so they can line their pockets with some nice cash from ESPN, but really, how does drinking give anyone a competitive advantage? Collared shirts? You've got to be kidding me! A designated size for marker discs? Stroking people for unmarked discs? Is anyone else throwing cactus clones but me? You even have to mark your mini!!! The PDGA is like any other group of humans. Its just that, lets face it, disc golfers were the guys getting beat up in high school and those that are slightly underwhelming socially. Get a big group of guys from below the fold together and you get a pile of insanity. A bunch of people trying to parlay their entertaining yet fringe sport into a self esteem boost or better yet a validating lifestyle.

Not only this, but they make rules that make no sense at all. The old stuck in a tree rule was perfect; put yer damn foot in the tree or take a stroke!! Chucked your disc OB without hitting the ground first? Thats a re-tee, not a convoluted discussion about where exactly the disc passed over an imaginary line 300' away and 40' in the air.

If the PDGA really wanted to make things enjoyable, they would reduce the time limit on shots and actually enforce it. Playing tourneys is just plain mind numbing when each shot requires two minutes of careful disc selection (do I want to throw my big bird rock, or my slightly more beat big bird rock?) and then a minute of looking constipated before finally throwing the disc. In fact, maybe I will channel some Feld-turd and bring a stopwatch to rounds, stroke people for time limit violations...

no one said you had to play tourneys. You sound like you like casual disc golf, so play some casual disc golf

[MNcyclone]

No, I want to play tourneys, just not PDGA tourneys. Players today have no idea how genuinely fun and stress free play was before the PDGA got maniacal. As soon as a top pro gets in a tourney this fog of rules lawyering comes down. There is a reason that I am not a PDGA member.

I especially take issue with the notion that because the PDGA has claimed the mantle of disc golf's organizing body their rules are THE rules of disc golf. They are merely pretenders to the throne. People here speak of the rules the PDGA has arbitrarily handed down as the absolute rules of the game. Thats like saying the shot clock is an essential rule of the sport of basketball despite the fact that it has been used for a minority of basketball's existence. Sure it makes NBA games more fun to watch, but if I play without a shot clock can I not say I am playing basketball? Am I wrong? The NBA didn't invent basketball, the PDGA didn't invent disc golf, they both just see a huge profit motive in creating a new generation of uptight slaves.

[Rondpitt]

Senor Cyclone,
I don’t know when, who, or how someone PDGA -like managed to whiz in your cornflakes, but I am sorry for your pain.

But speaking just for me. I find the following to be good news.

No, I want to play tourneys, just not PDGA tourneys. .

[gcr_russell]

No, I want to play tourneys, just not PDGA tourneys. Players today have no idea how genuinely fun and stress free play was before the PDGA got maniacal. As soon as a top pro gets in a tourney this fog of rules lawyering comes down. There is a reason that I am not a PDGA member.

I especially take issue with the notion that because the PDGA has claimed the mantle of disc golf's organizing body their rules are THE rules of disc golf. They are merely pretenders to the throne. People here speak of the rules the PDGA has arbitrarily handed down as the absolute rules of the game. Thats like saying the shot clock is an essential rule of the sport of basketball despite the fact that it has been used for a minority of basketball's existence. Sure it makes NBA games more fun to watch, but if I play without a shot clock can I not say I am playing basketball? Am I wrong? The NBA didn't invent basketball, the PDGA didn't invent disc golf, they both just see a huge profit motive in creating a new generation of uptight slaves.


First off, not terribly sound an argument in many places.
If you don't play PDGA events then please let me know how you could have any legitimate understanding of how they operate for the participants in particular.

And as far as your point about the PDGA making a huge profit... Would you like to know how true that is?
Zero percent true. By any definition of big profit that comes in to being false.

[MNcyclone]

The PDGA does not make big profit now, but they are posturing for it. IMHO the writing is on the wall.

I play PDGA events at times, I just prefer not to. I'm not a PDGA member but that doesn't preclude me from playing in events that get PDGA sanctioning. I just pay the fee. The fee that goes towards all of the good things the PDGA does for me, like hand down stupid rules...

I'm at a stage of my disc golfing best described as "get off my lawn". This thread pointed that feeling into harsh comments, comments that don't reflect how I act in the real world. Of course I'm not going to stick my head in the sand and start playing snap ching. But if I had my way the PDGA would be much different. Change is hard on people, and hard to accept for people like me who grew up playing a sport where everyone you met was awesome and you could play the most popular course in under an hour. But take my comments as they are, made by the curmudgeonly.

[agentdozzer]

Its just that, lets face it, disc golfers were the guys getting beat up in high school and those that are slightly underwhelming socially. ...
Speak for yourself buddy, I was never the guy getting beat up in high school, who beats up the guy with the drugs?

[pchitti]

Keep playing DG the way you want to MNCyclone, and us competitive PDGA member tourney players will keep playing the way we want to. Buy the rules of our sanctioning body.

I was on the card at Crowley that the OP is about. It solely was an intent judgment call, if he had been up to drive, backed off the box to throw it to her, yes call. But not to return a disc when he gains no advantage.

Also had a guy break out a pipe at the tourney during a round. Casual guy newer to tourneys. My response was please put that up. If you feel you need to smoke, do not do it in front of me. I AM required to report smoking and drinking to the TD. Just as the TD is required to report it to the PDGA. Dont join if you dont wanna play by the rules.

I warn players I have not played with before Official warnings, but if I know you know the rules, expect a warning and then strokes.

[Usher]

If it were ever practical to do so (and let's face it, it never is), I'd wish we make all players in PDGA events pass a written rules test similar to the one the NT players have to take, before they can compete in a sanctioned event.

I agree. Not that they are they same but like to get your driver's license you have to pass a test to be able to drive. Know the rules.

[gigemjonny]

wow first off cyclone they are rocs not rocks.
secondly agentdozzer, please take your drug commentary elsewhere.

[MNcyclone]

I love how rules lawyers insist its a different game without the PDGA holy writings. I play the same game in the same way you do pchitti. The difference is I can beat people without stroking them for sneezing during my put. That is really what the argument is about, whether its ok to stroke people for things you know don't really affect the game all for the sake of the rules.

[U_NICED_ME]

I haven't seen a lot of grave violations in a tourney at least none to call someone out on. I did get upset when a seasoned player tried to stroke a noob that threw a disc at a disc stuck in a tree to get it out. Those types of things I don't like.

It's almost like if a tennis player throws up their serve toss and then catches it without serving. Yea, sometimes they might be testing the wind or sun angle, but in the end it doesn't impact the outcome. And no, they're not penalized.

I guess there just needs to be some sort of practical applications of rules at times. Sometime CGK brings up points though that I would never try to do or imagine players doing like multiple flipping of discs to mark a lie or tosses of a disc back to the bag to check wind.

[MNcyclone]

Wow, did I say rocks? :doh:

[U_NICED_ME]

It's ok....sometimes I say disks. :p

[Giv'r]

Wow, did I say rocks? :doh:

Yes, you did. Well you wrote it anyhow, thus making your whole argument invalid. Sorry. :p

[magictenor1]

No, I want to play tourneys, just not PDGA tourneys. Players today have no idea how genuinely fun and stress free play was before the PDGA got maniacal. As soon as a top pro gets in a tourney this fog of rules lawyering comes down. There is a reason that I am not a PDGA member.

I especially take issue with the notion that because the PDGA has claimed the mantle of disc golf's organizing body their rules are THE rules of disc golf. They are merely pretenders to the throne. People here speak of the rules the PDGA has arbitrarily handed down as the absolute rules of the game. Thats like saying the shot clock is an essential rule of the sport of basketball despite the fact that it has been used for a minority of basketball's existence. Sure it makes NBA games more fun to watch, but if I play without a shot clock can I not say I am playing basketball? Am I wrong? The NBA didn't invent basketball, the PDGA didn't invent disc golf, they both just see a huge profit motive in creating a new generation of uptight slaves.

If the PDGA does not set the rules for DG then who does?

[dreadlock86]

wow, such vitriol. ???

seems pretty simple to me: give someone a warning and then everyone on the card knows that the rule is known; after that, strokes.

and if someone is being a dick, the rest on the card can just not second the violation. there are reasonable measures in place to make sure that nobody is taking advantage one way or the other.

[jenb]

MNcyclone may be a bit more critical of the PDGA than we are used to hearing, but he has a point about the rules being over the top. It's one thing if the rules provide players options for calling violations and enforcing the rules to the letter at need to prevent competitors from gaining advantage unfairly. It's a wholly different thing when they specifically define player misconduct as failure to enforce the rules 3.3 (11) or refusal to cooperate with any investigation of an official into one's own conduct or the conduct of another player's 3.3 (12).

I mean, imagine the scenario where the player is just returning a disc across a body of water to a player on another card. All but one of the group says they won't call him on it, and then the other not only calls him on it, but reports the others for overt refusal to enforce the rules. Then even the players in the other group get the shaft when the official comes around investigating, unless they rat out the guy who was nice and helped them out.

I agree that there needs to be some kind of pressure valve, perhaps under the rule of fairness, that permits players to overtly decline to call violations. As it is, the rules would punish a more experienced player for issuing a warning to a new player when the rule does not allow for a warning, and does so when the alleged violation does not lead to competitive advantage, without any regard for whether the spirit of the rule or rules being enforced is being subverted, under the circumstances, by following those rules to the absolute letter. Worse than that, these particular rules would seem to seek to suppress any overt protests of the rules as written.

[gcr_russell]

It's a wholly different thing when they specifically define player misconduct as failure to enforce the rules 3.3 (11) or refusal to cooperate with any investigation of an official into one's own conduct or the conduct of another player's 3.3 (12). .

This is an instance (one of many) where the spirit of the rule and reading of the rule slightly differ. I am 100% positive these rules are in existence in order to keep A card of players from conspiring together to cheat. Such as players allowing eachother to shave strokes, take practice/additional strokes, mark lies ahead of actual lie, etc. In those cases it is very understandable to stroke the players unwilling to call violations just as much as the players gaining strokes through their rule violations.

[scarpfish]

I especially take issue with the notion that because the PDGA has claimed the mantle of disc golf's organizing body their rules are THE rules of disc golf. They are merely pretenders to the throne. People here speak of the rules the PDGA has arbitrarily handed down as the absolute rules of the game.
When people ask for a rules clarification on here, they're generally asking about the PDGA rule set. Do you know of any other rule sets that they would be asking about? Do you know that outside of PDGA sanctioned events you're not in any way obliged to follow the PDGA rules unless the TD of your specified unsanctioned event says that they're in effect, or in effect exempting Competition Manual 3.3 B (10)?

To complain about the PDGA's method of operation is cheap and easy. To actually go forth and provide an alternative to it is another matter.

[Rondpitt]

Two things I declare to be true.

A. Folks don't come to forums to have their mind changed. Posters thinking that their wise words will be the exception are in for a disappointment.

B. Forum discussions on rules enforcements have been done, and done, and done, and done, but I have not the willpower to leave them alone.

----------------------------------
And now back to the main event;

Over the years I am more and more convinced of the need to call all the rules, even the ones I am uncomfortable with. Here is why ---- Like any attempt to set a standard (in any setting) this issue is often called the Slippery Slope.

If you let one (seemingly inconsequential) issue sliiiiide, then along the NewSlidingRule scale ---- when will you NOT let it slide? Talk about a mess. A mess for the whole card. I contend that a sanctioned round with a shifting set of rules creates MORE DRAMA and bad feelings than simply staying on target with the rules (nice word play, huh?)

Many of us have participated in one of those goofy rounds:
Say something or be quiet?
What will they think if I do? If I don't?
Ouch, he/she is getting out of hand.
This is messing with my game, and probably my card mates, too.
You get the picture.

It is SO frustrating to finish a round and think the age old thought, "dang, I should have said something long ago." Have you been there?

Ron

[gcr_russell]

Nice Post Rondpitt, I agree completely. I'll certainly reference the slippery slope in future conversations.

[dreadlock86]

MNcyclone may be a bit more critical of the PDGA than we are used to hearing, but he has a point about the rules being over the top. It's one thing if the rules provide players options for calling violations and enforcing the rules to the letter at need to prevent competitors from gaining advantage unfairly. It's a wholly different thing when they specifically define player misconduct as failure to enforce the rules 3.3 (11) or refusal to cooperate with any investigation of an official into one's own conduct or the conduct of another player's 3.3 (12).

I mean, imagine the scenario where the player is just returning a disc across a body of water to a player on another card. All but one of the group says they won't call him on it, and then the other not only calls him on it, but reports the others for overt refusal to enforce the rules. Then even the players in the other group get the shaft when the official comes around investigating, unless they rat out the guy who was nice and helped them out.

I agree that there needs to be some kind of pressure valve, perhaps under the rule of fairness, that permits players to overtly decline to call violations. As it is, the rules would punish a more experienced player for issuing a warning to a new player when the rule does not allow for a warning, and does so when the alleged violation does not lead to competitive advantage, without any regard for whether the spirit of the rule or rules being enforced is being subverted, under the circumstances, by following those rules to the absolute letter. Worse than that, these particular rules would seem to seek to suppress any overt protests of the rules as written.


this is what the TD is there for and why they are allowed discretion on these matters.

[U_NICED_ME]

Exactly, Dreadlock! I've made 'provisional' notes on a card before. It gets settled after the round. No biggie!! It's not that serious!! :)

http://i796.photobucket.com/albums/yy243/vrkm2003/just-chill.gif

[jenb]

So TDs have discretion to enforce the player misconduct rules (i.e., the same rules that deny players discretion), and if the TD decides not to DQ a player, then he doesn't have to report the player's misconduct, but otherwise he does. Is that about right?

[pchitti]

MNCyclone, we are playing the same game, but by different rule sets. You can play multiple different rule sets but still be playing pool... BCA, APA, & bar rules all different rules for the same game. Yours would be bar rules, ours BCA, and the newer rule set I have seen for Dg would be APA, where its more about fun than rules.

Not putting down anyones rules or choices down, only stating that if you dont like one of the versions its your right to not play them, but if the tournaments are ran with these rules its your responsibility to still follow them while in the tourneys.

[U_NICED_ME]

So TDs have discretion to enforce the player misconduct rules (i.e., the same rules that deny players discretion), and if the TD decides not to DQ a player, then he doesn't have to report the player's misconduct, but otherwise he does. Is that about right?

I don't really know what all this means! :confused:

I think denying discretion of players is not really an accurate description here. There should be discretion and for the most part there is in tourney's. (I don't understand what happened in your situation or why everyone was so uptight.) People have opinions and everyone should come to a consensus on a card. I've only had one instance where an offending player asked an adjacent card for a consult..it was regarding OB..no part of her disc was touching ground on the good side. It was kind of new rule then and a player spoke up, stated the rule. Everyone moved on.

I guess I'm just grateful that I don't have to deal with things like this. I've played with Rules Nazi's before and usually I've convinced them to just to give a warning, especially if it's in response to a non-issue when it comes to scores.

[jenb]

I'm the kind of person who likes to follow rules, but doesn't like to force others to do it. Now that I am confronted with a rule that says I have force others to do it, I'm not happy.

[U_NICED_ME]

I see. I just can't imagine that really happening or becoming such a huge issue. If there was one person on a card completely adamant about a situation and no one else was willing to give in either, we would make a note on the card and ask the TD afterwards.

I hope you're still having fun out on the course regardless!!! :)

[DavidSauls]

I'm a little curious here. Disc golfers are expected to be self-officiating; to be honorable and make the correct rulings on themselves. It is obviously very far from being able to provide non-playing marshalls and officials. In the absence of a disc golfer making the correct call on himself, who should? I see little option but to require other members of the group to. Otherwise, everyone is playing by his or her own rules.

Of course, members of the group excercise some degree of judgement, just as 3rd-party officials do in other sports. But if push comes to shove and they refuse this duty, what then? Hence, the competition manual rule. The fact that it's virtually never used would seem to indicate that it's there as a last resort.

The rules, competition manual, and tournament standards aren't there so we can get disc golf on ESPN. They're there for fair play, and so that the 98% of competitors playing in lower-tier events have some expectation of consistency in the events they enter.

[BogeyNoMore]

Two things I declare to be true.

A. Folks don't come to forums to have their mind changed. Posters thinking that their wise words will be the exception are in for a disappointment.

B. Forum discussions on rules enforcements have been done, and done, and done, and done, but I have not the willpower to leave them alone.

----------------------------------
And now back to the main event;

Over the years I am more and more convinced of the need to call all the rules, even the ones I am uncomfortable with. Here is why ---- Like any attempt to set a standard (in any setting) this issue is often called the Slippery Slope.

If you let one (seemingly inconsequential) issue sliiiiide, then along the NewSlidingRule scale ---- when will you NOT let it slide? Talk about a mess. A mess for the whole card. I contend that a sanctioned round with a shifting set of rules creates MORE DRAMA and bad feelings than simply staying on target with the rules (nice word play, huh?)

Many of us have participated in one of those goofy rounds:
Say something or be quiet?
What will they think if I do? If I don't?
Ouch, he/she is getting out of hand.
This is messing with my game, and probably my card mates, too.
You get the picture.

It is SO frustrating to finish a round and think the age old thought, "dang, I should have said something long ago." Have you been there?

Ron
Nice Post Rondpitt, I agree completely. I'll certainly reference the slippery slope in future conversations.
Agreed, Ron's case for the avoiding the slippery slope is well stated.

That being said, I completely agree with:
stroking someone for throwing a retrieved disc back is just a dick move.

[Rondpitt]

"That being said, I completely agree with:
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArcheType
stroking someone for throwing a retrieved disc back is just a dick move."
__________________

You may be right. I can see how a tournament noob might be better served with a rules lesson instead of an immediate penalty throw for a "practice throw". I have done that more than once as a TD while walking with the Novice division. At our last tournament I found a whole card of first-timers playing catch while waiting on the hole. You should have seen their faces when I showed them the rule on the book. Too funny. They got their color back after I told them that this was a lesson and not a warning. I don't expect them to ever do it again.

But, give this some thought...

With a seasoned tournament player it might be different. Let's admit it -- there are some crafty players amongst us. If a card mate all of a sudden "appears" to chunk a disc back to his/her bag, or back to another player, or whatever --- then what happens when the same thing occurs when we aren't really looking, or the player is behind a bush/tree/shule, etc???

It is easy for the player to announce, "that wasn't my throw -- I was just pitching it back to my bag". Yuk. Now we (the cardmates/judges) have to determine intent before we can agree to add a penalty for a practice stroke???

There has been great effort over the years to remove intent from the penalty picture in the rules. I applaud that effort and support it by ignoring intent. Try it-- you might like it. :)

Yes, there are some rules that seem to hinder a few non-consequential actions, but the rules exist because some fool figured out how to cheat in their absence. I would rather squash a fool's desire to cheat than to be the fool and say nothing.



Ron

[DavidSauls]

I've had many tournaments where my putting fell apart, and I would have seized any opportunity to casually toss a disc 20' or 30' for free, and try to work out the kinks, if the rules allowed. Multiple times, if I could. Relax the practice shot rule, and I'll toss discs back to my bag, at trees, anywhere I can. Multiply this times 90 players on a course, and things get ragged.

I'd like to make an exemption for someone returning a disc to another group, when walking and handing it to them is impractical. Say, over a creek. But I'm not sure how to word it, that doesn't create another can of worms.

I'm reminded of a tournament where a TD granted that exemption, in advance. Gran Canyon had a 30' cliff with one fairway on top, another fairway down below. TD declared that if a disc went over the cliff, the group below could toss it back up, without penalty.

[Sadjo]

A couple of years ago, when I first got back into running tournaments, I remember feeling conflicted for penalizing a player for an infraction. A few months later I was hit with turning in a wrong scorecard. The TD apologized. I told him it was okay and I had no beef with him or anyone else...my fault.

From that point forward I have no problems with enforcing the rules of play. I even decided after running an event last fall that I will no longer play in events where I'm the TD. That way I have no worry about those conflicts and I believe a majority of the players will have a TD's back if someone acts out due to being penalized.

[DavidSauls]

I've received and administered penalties for incorrect scorecards, and never known anyone to complain. For most people, its a once-in-a-lifetime infraction, as they become very attentive to their card ever after.

30-second rule is one of the most-violated and least-called. And I suspect if you called someone for taking 40 seconds to throw, it would put quite a chill on the rest of the round.

[Rondpitt]

I re-read my earlier post:

But, give this some thought...

With a seasoned tournament player it might be different. Let's admit it -- there are some crafty players amongst us. If a card mate all of a sudden "appears" to chunk a disc back to his/her bag, or back to another player, or whatever --- then what happens when the same thing occurs when we aren't really looking, or the player is behind a bush/tree/shule, etc???

It is easy for the player to announce, "that wasn't my throw -- I was just pitching it back to my bag". Yuk. Now we (the cardmates/judges) have to determine intent before we can agree to add a penalty for a practice stroke???

I was wrong. In this "back to my bag" questionable throw--- the question may not be about a practice penalty, but instead a question as to whether the disc thrown establishes a new lie, because it counted as their sho-nuff throw.
An even stickier wicket for peace and tranquility on the card. I say again -- there is Less drama on a card where the rules are being called than the times when call/not call keeps shifting.

Anybody ever been the odd man (wo-man) out? The 4th of 3 DG Buds?? Talk about shifting rules??
Ron

[U_NICED_ME]

I don't think I've ever been on a card that had total disregard for rules. Some of you have brought up some good points tho about why it's not a good idea to allow casual tosses of discs. I think you have persuaded me to enforce this to a greater degree.

[DavidSauls]

I don't think I've ever been on a card that had total disregard for rules. Some of you have brought up some good points tho about why it's not a good idea to allow casual tosses of discs. I think you have persuaded me to enforce this to a greater degree.

Compliance and enforcement vary by locale and division. Sometimes, and especially with newer players, a warning will do---even though it's not called for in the rulebook and is technically in violation of the competition manual rule which begat this discussion. "You know, that's a practice throw" or "If you do that again I'll have to call it" or some such may stop the misconduct without causing hard feelings.

Once, very weary and losing concentration in the 4th round, I picked up my disc 2' from the basket and failed to hole out. My opponents didn't penalize me---but they pointed it out and made me go back and hole out.

[U_NICED_ME]

See, that's usually the mindset I have at tourney's also. And I agree, usually a warning for most in some circumstances is adequate.

[hector69]

I am BUMPing this post up for two reasons:

#1 I am genuinely interested in the subject, as I am playing in my first singles tournament next week (rec division) and rules and violations are on my mind right now. As in; What if I screw up and break a rule or What if I am playing with a group or someone who disregards the rules?

#2 I was about to start a new thread on this subject when (before I hit POST) I decided to use the SEARCH feature that I usually hear about on every new thread that has been gone over before. And low and behold the exact subject I was looking for came up and I learned a lot of information that has calmed my nerves and gave me good advice on how to handle rule controversies.

So the most important things I learned today were to hit SEARCH, and don't foot fault and when someone else foot faults don't be an a$$ about it.

hector

[scarpfish]

#1 I am genuinely interested in the subject, as I am playing in my first singles tournament next week (rec division) and rules and violations are on my mind right now. As in; What if I screw up and break a rule or What if I am playing with a group or someone who disregards the rules?
In your division, you are more likely than not to get away with any improprieties, you are also more likely to see improprieties committed by others since I can assure you that most people in that division have never actually read the rule book.

Even in the rec division, the same rules are in effect and it is your duty to know and enforce them, but I'm not going to give you any slack for letting certain things like slide since we all did it once, (and perhaps still do it) thinking that its for the greater good. That being said, by being a rules stickler now, you're probably helping out your card mates in the long run.

Note: You did not say whether your event was PDGA sanctioned or not. If not, then the rulebook may in some degree not apply, and you can almost certainly expect an even more casual environment with even more rule bending and breaking going on.

[Rondpitt]

#1 I am genuinely interested in the subject, as I am playing in my first singles tournament next week (rec division) and rules and violations are on my mind right now. As in; What if I screw up and break a rule or What if I am playing with a group or someone who disregards the rules?
hector

Hector,
If only every new tournament player felt the same way about the rules. I think you have asked some great questions.

The honorable scarpfish has stated well that YOUR violations shall not be an issue. Odds are that you have read the rule book and are intent upon playing the game as it is written. No problem.

But, what you might find in your cardmates can often be disappointing. Some of my friends in our local club get to play more tournaments than I do -- and this conversation keeps coming up. I hear, "Ron, what would you have done?" and "I didn't say anything, but wish I did." --- All The Time!

What "violations" you ask? These are the top 3 that at some point begin to effect the other people on the card:
1. NonParkPermitted Alcohol & BowlPacking -- (I will save these for another day)
2. Sloppy marking and foot faults. (Not even trying)
3. Yelling, fussing, cussing, kicking when their game goes goofy.

Here is my advice to them; Say something. In a kind, thoughtful way --say something. Instead of them have this "power" over the group --- say something. Instead of the cardmates having this weird pressure them --- release the pressure by saying something.

When I "say something" it comes in one of two forms. Usually one before the other.
1. If I see on the first hole that we have a sloppy marker/foot faulter, etc (and I notice that NObody else on the card is even watching) I usually pick out one of the non-violaters after a nicely planted fairway run-up and say this," Wow, Paul. THAT is the way it should be done (everybody is listening now) You nailed that foot plant. Right behind the mini. Right on the LOP. I applaud you sir. Folks that don't care where their foot plant or supporting plant goes -- have a definite advantage. Guys, did you see that? Ya'll WERE watching weren't you? Fellas, we gotta' help each other out. Whether you are marking you lie or getting in your stance --the rules say we have to watch each other." Say this real low-key and non- threatening and you will have a much better round. Sloppy Sam will either behave or get called -- all with no drama.

2. In my "aw shucks" voice, after an obvious violation I say, " Aww gee, that didn't go well at all. Come on guys, ya'll come over here and let's work this out." And then in a easy quiet manner, I say what everyone else usually wants to say (but, they usually don't) Never get loud. Never get personal. Just say it. And always refer to the rules. "Jeff, wow. You know the rules say that an outburst like that -- kicking your bag, like you just did --- is specifically mentioned in the rules as a courtesy violation. I'm sorry you missed your putt --and hope you can recover, but, the rules say that this is your courtesy warning. Don't do stuff like that again or the rules say there will be a penalty throw added. Who has the card, let's write this down."
Just say it.
Ron

[hector69]

aw shucks, thanks fellers....