TONS of pin locations

[Danger]

Is it me, or are courses using more and more pin locations? Some I know of have over 6! Check out the map for Morley Field. It's a hot mess!
http://www.dgcoursereview.com/course_files/298/1f7baa09.gif

OK here comes the question.

Green Red White Blue Gold.


How do we even determine which is which? I realize these colors came from ball golf, but in that sport, they don't move the pin. It seems to me that this pin 'color' designation may be the sloppiest part of our sport regarding consistency in ratings. In my above example of colors, there are only 5 listed yet some courses have more than 5 locations. Are there a couple of White pins? Or Blue? Do we even use green?

I think that courses should start using letter designations for pin locations and leave the color coding scheme to tee locations. Thoughts?

[andrewtclarkson]

I agree on the tee vs pin location deal, there needs to be a different system. Didn't realize courses did this tho, my home course doesn't move them ever.

[cefire]

I'm nearly certain that many ball golf courses do in fact move the pin around.

I agree regarding the pin color designation, it would be highly unlikely that pin settings could straddle so many different skill ranges. I think more likely the colors are just used to differentiate (i.e., 1, 2, 3, a, b, c) rather than indicate something about the skill level of each.

[Danger]

^They move the hole around the green, but they do not move the green. In disc, I think the variance between our pin locations are much greater than the variety they have on their ball greens.

[TempleOfDoom]

1. Morley's map is indeed a mess. They should show the one position on the map to give you an idea of the course layout and let the tee signs show you the different pin positions and where the basket is located that day.
2. The color designations are generally used for an entire course or for multiple tee pads, not pins. Usually you will only see baskets with color designations if there is more than one basket in use on a hole.
3. Ball golf moves the pin all the time. During a golf tournament they will usually move the pin to a different part of the green each round.

[andrewtclarkson]

I'm nearly certain that ball golf courses do in fact move the pin around

They do, at least once a month I'd say (judging by the holes you see in the green)

[Danger]

Here is an example of color being used for pin locations:
http://www.dgcoursereview.com/course_pics/909/d2a3ab98.jpg Sylmar



Ultimately, here is why I bring it up. Our scorekeeping system here at DGCR, and on most iPhone apps, use color as a pin location designation, and you are given a choice as to what layout to use. For imputing scores at Sylmar, I am forced to choose all red, all white, or all blue. We all know that the course is never all one color, so I just kind of pick the color that was most appropriate for that day. "Wow, Sylmar is in rape mode, lets put blue." "Chavez was easy today I guess Ill put red." As far as scorekeeping and what not, I just see a lack of consistency. Here in LA you do not see multiple tees so much, so thats even more of a reason to standardize this pin location thing.

I truly think that, like colors, they should be marked by letter, with "A" being easy and "J" being "holy crap they have a J position way back there?!?!" Perhaps that clarified a little....

[GoodDriveBadPutt]

I think in ball golf they use different color flags depending on the location. Like, red is front green, white is middle green and blue is back green. That course must have been designed similarly.

But, that is strange. Every disc golf course I've played has been letters for the baskets; a, b, c, etc. But that gets confusing with letter loops or 9a's stuck in between 9 and 10's. I wish numbers+colors were used exclusively for tees, and letters exclusively for baskets.

[Danger]

OK, so when comparing to ball golf...if the ball hole is at the front of the green versus the back of the green, does that really significantly change the challenge of the hole? I seriously doubt the degree of change is even remotely close to the difference in pin locations on disc courses, which I have seen over 200 feet apart.

Ultimately, I guess I am trying to find a way to standardize comparisons. In some layouts at local courses, I can shoot damn near even. At that same course a month later, it is set up in such a way that I leave happy as balls with a 70. In a scorecard, I would like to be able to enter the pin location, especially when I shoot poorly and am looking for excuses to legitimize my performance.

[skamasterhenrik]

OK, so when comparing to ball golf...if the ball hole is at the front of the green versus the back of the green, does that really significantly change the challenge of the hole? I seriously doubt the degree of change is even remotely close to the difference in pin locations on disc courses, which I have seen over 200 feet apart.

It does matter, quite significantly. Greens are crazy different and by moving the pin location you change not only the putt, but also your approach/fairway shot. You could even say that this could affect where you would want to put your drive...although that might be a stretch. I do agree with you that pin variance in disc golf does seem to make a bigger difference but I'd say they're the same in both sports...

[Danger]

Well then, I guess you learn something new every day! :o

[Heathen]

^ Although there is some difference in the way you would approach your up shot to the green with a different hole placement, changing the pin on a ball golf green really has more to do with promoting even wear on the grass than changing hole strategy.

[GoodDriveBadPutt]

I disagree. With ball golf greens having extremely different features, such as slope, width, proximity to other hazards, and affecting the hole length by ~10 yards, it can make a huge difference. Pebble Beach has a peanut shaped green, for instance. The closer pin position is waaaay easier to reach than a back one.

There is a disc golf hole at the Ross Barnett reservoir (#11) that has three pin placements, in varying distances to a lot of water; close, closer, and closer still. The overall design of the hole isn't that different, but drive placement changes big time. That is more similar to a ball golf design than a disc golf hole that changes from hyzer to anhyzer, or adds double the length.

It is very tough to compare them straight up; the main difference is that disc golf can provide two or more unique shots, while ball golf is more or less added difficulty without changing the hole's overall layout.

[Heathen]

Multiple basket placements are nice, but I think it can be overdone. It looks to me as though someone got a little carried away with that Morley Field course.

I don't think you would ever see total consistency on the courses with basket and tee designations, but some official recomendations would certainly be a good thing.

Has the PDGA considered this or has it not been addressed at all? Does anyone know?

[GoodDriveBadPutt]

Nah, course designers can do whatever the heck they want, with no regard to any existing models/regulations. I have a feeling ball golf just slowly evolved into the universal standard that there is now.

Plus, ball golf courses are so uniform to begin with, disc golf courses are all so deliciously unique.

[harr0140]

Is it me, or are courses using more and more pin locations? Some I know of have over 6! Check out the map for Morley Field. It's a hot mess!
http://www.dgcoursereview.com/course_files/298/1f7baa09.gif

OK here comes the question.

Green Red White Blue Gold.


How do we even determine which is which? I realize these colors came from ball golf, but in that sport, they don't move the pin. It seems to me that this pin 'color' designation may be the sloppiest part of our sport regarding consistency in ratings. In my above example of colors, there are only 5 listed yet some courses have more than 5 locations. Are there a couple of White pins? Or Blue? Do we even use green?

I think that courses should start using letter designations for pin locations and leave the color coding scheme to tee locations. Thoughts?

I agree wholeheartedly about this . . . there is no way to compare how you played a course from one day to the next . . . and i like comparisons and statistics.

I would like to see a true course rating developed based upon each hole being "rated" from each tee to each basket so that all possibilities are covered.

[Danger]

^It sounds complex but I like your idea of a specific Tee to Pin rating for each hole (of which, there would be multiple ratings for each pin location), then adding up the number for 'Today's Course Rating.'

Is there a new pin location on the course? Great! It should have its own brand spankin' new rating, so you can fit that in to your overall performance.

Of course, I think this would only be possible in a world of pay-to-play golf or where courses are maintained on a regular basis by a local pro.

[Heathen]

I disagree. With ball golf greens having extremely different features, such as slope, width, proximity to other hazards, and affecting the hole length by ~10 yards, it can make a huge difference. Pebble Beach has a peanut shaped green, for instance. The closer pin position is waaaay easier to reach than a back one.

There's no doubt that the greens vary tremendously in geography. I was a ball golf player for many more years more than I've played disc golf.
I'm very aware of the difference in play that can be had with different pin positions.

But the MAIN reason that changing the hole placement on a green is necessary is because of wear and tear on the grass. Greens are very sensitive to traffic and not moving a hole around will lead to grass death and soil compaction very quickly. It is primarily a maintenance issue.

Not to say that you can't alter the play of the hole as well.

[Heathen]

Plus, ball golf courses are so uniform to begin with, disc golf courses are all so deliciously unique.


I'd have to agree wholeheartedly here. :thmbup:

Thats one of the things I love about Disc Golf. The huge differences in courses. Never boring.

[scarpfish]

I think that courses should start using letter designations for pin locations and leave the color coding scheme to tee locations. Thoughts?
Sounds good to me. Now try convincing all the parks departments and course designers to agree to that system.

It does bear mentioning that Morley has been in ground a very long time, and its likely new positions were added over the years as the obstacles changed. Most courses with scads of positions, this seems to be the case.

[GoodDriveBadPutt]

But the MAIN reason that changing the hole placement on a green is necessary is because of wear and tear on the grass. Greens are very sensitive to traffic and not moving a hole around will lead to grass death and soil compaction very quickly. It is primarily a maintenance issue.

Not to say that you can't alter the play of the hole as well.

Hmmm... I never thought of it from that perspective, but it definitely makes sense. Just like moving the tee markers around. :doh:

I just always noticed that as various tournaments progress Thursday to Sunday, the pin positions usually get more and more difficult. Is that a similar feature in disc golf as well? Making the course progressively harder as the tournament goes on?

[GoodDriveBadPutt]

I think that courses should start using letter designations for pin locations and leave the color coding scheme to tee locations. Thoughts?

Couldn't agree more.

The thought of a rating per hole (i.e. 14 Blue A vs. 14 White B) is extremely intriguing as well.


Sounds good to me. Now try convincing all the parks departments and course designers to agree to that system.

Couldn't agree more... :(

[tistoude]

I have really enjoyed reading this thread. There are some really interesting thoughts in here. I personally have worked at a ball golf course (changing pins daily) and been responsible for changing the pins for one of my local courses. I know that in ball golf a tough pin can add about 1/2 a stroke on average to a hole and I think some disc golf does the same thing so the rating per hole theory is intriguing.
In a separate thread about Deer Lakes Chuck Kennedy mentioned that he felt Deer Lakes could have a Gold level (1000 rated) layout if you used mixed tees and pins which I found interesting since DL's blue tees are only rated at 980 or something.

On a separate note I love when a course has alot of different pin positions since that can keep the course from becoming stale if you play it often. Forked Run in WV has some holes with 6 pin positions and it is an awesome play.

[Cgkdisc]

It's been my experience that our DGCD design members use letters to identify different pin positions.

Something people might not know about ball golf pin placements is how they rotate them. When the course is created, the designer identifies 6 pin locations (sometimes just 4) on each green and ranks them from toughest to easiest (6 to 1) on each green. Then, once the course opens, the greenskeeper can change pin placements however they want as long as the total value of the pin placements adds up is 63 (18x3.5 where 3.5 is the average of 1,2,3,4,5,6). This way the overall course challenge remains the same each time you play it even though some holes are a little tougher and some a little easier.

[scarpfish]

I just always noticed that as various tournaments progress Thursday to Sunday, the pin positions usually get more and more difficult. Is that a similar feature in disc golf as well? Making the course progressively harder as the tournament goes on?
Sometimes. In others I've actually seen it get easier. A lot of TD's don't want to mess around with moving baskets if they don't have to.

[optidiscic]

Tyler SP in PA is notorious for the extreme variety in challenge from A pins to B to C to D.....many tourney players dont realize that often its a mere pitch n putt with 500 foot walks between basket position A and C/D. Often requiring a drastic turn and an extreme pin placement for instance.
I have heard they are trying to raise money for permt C positions and then move the alt short baskets betweeen A and B.

I think alt baskets suck for the traveling player but are the best thing for locals as it creates variety and eases erosion concerns on heavily used courses.
I like diff teeboxes for the traveling player but thats a ton of work and rather unsightly in most parks.
I used to really hate when baskets moved but have softened my stance a bit.
The biggest problem I see is it is impossible to determine par when basket positions are in a varied layout....but this is no big deal considering the advantages. I think weather and foliage do more to influence your score than the tweaking of most layouts so really moving the basket typically isnt as much of a big deal as most would think.

[mashnut]

It's been my experience that our DGCD design members use letters to identify different pin positions.

Something people might not know about ball golf pin placements is how they rotate them. When the course is created, the designer identifies 6 pin locations (sometimes just 4) on each green and ranks them from toughest to easiest (6 to 1) on each green. Then, once the course opens, the greenskeeper can change pin placements however they want as long as the total value of the pin placements adds up is 63 (18x3.5 where 3.5 is the average of 1,2,3,4,5,6). This way the overall course challenge remains the same each time you play it even though some holes are a little tougher and some a little easier.


Sounds like a good system, I like the idea of keeping things close to the same difficulty while adding variety. I've always felt like Snapper does a pretty good job at Morley keeping things pretty similar week to week, with an even balance of left and right turning holes and generally a pretty similar difficulty. The map in the OP actually doesn't show nearly all the pin positions on several holes, there are some with 10+ and he's still adding them.

[The dude on the bike]

Alternates are the spice of life, we used to have a few guys with keys that played so it was simple.

[harr0140]

I have really enjoyed reading this thread. There are some really interesting thoughts in here. I personally have worked at a ball golf course (changing pins daily) and been responsible for changing the pins for one of my local courses. I know that in ball golf a tough pin can add about 1/2 a stroke on average to a hole and I think some disc golf does the same thing so the rating per hole theory is intriguing.
In a separate thread about Deer Lakes Chuck Kennedy mentioned that he felt Deer Lakes could have a Gold level (1000 rated) layout if you used mixed tees and pins which I found interesting since DL's blue tees are only rated at 980 or something.

On a separate note I love when a course has alot of different pin positions since that can keep the course from becoming stale if you play it often. Forked Run in WV has some holes with 6 pin positions and it is an awesome play.

Maybe I am not understanding the rating system completely, but how are a set of tees rated 980????

[harr0140]

It's been my experience that our DGCD design members use letters to identify different pin positions.

Something people might not know about ball golf pin placements is how they rotate them. When the course is created, the designer identifies 6 pin locations (sometimes just 4) on each green and ranks them from toughest to easiest (6 to 1) on each green. Then, once the course opens, the greenskeeper can change pin placements however they want as long as the total value of the pin placements adds up is 63 (18x3.5 where 3.5 is the average of 1,2,3,4,5,6). This way the overall course challenge remains the same each time you play it even though some holes are a little tougher and some a little easier.

Chuck, I spent 9 years in the golf course maintenance field (5 years in the upper leveles of management) and I have never heard that about the course designer picking 6 (or 4) pin locations, and I have probably moved pins a few thousand times . . .That may be a recommendation but it is not followed . . . the general rule of thumb that was used is that the hole distance should remain the same everyday meaning if the tees were forward the pin should be forward and if the pin was back the tees should also be back . . . the location on the green was almost always totally dependent on turf condition. The other rul eof thumb we followed as a general rule was to have 6 holes forward, 6 holes in the middle, and 6 int he back . . . but you could decide anywhere in those zones. Often times those pins were completely up to the cup cutter who tended to be someone who played golf, but sometimes you would run across someone who had an ax to grind and would make them all in the toughest positions in each zone . . . in a tournament setting like PGA I am not sure how they do it, but in a top notch resort and top notch private exclusive country club setting that is how I have always witnessed it.

[vslaugh]

Maybe I am not understanding the rating system completely, but how are a set of tees rated 980????

It's the round rating you would get for shooting par from those tees...sort of the converse of SSA. For example, Deer Lakes is Par 66. Shoot a 66 from the blues and your round rating will be ~980 (the SSA is ~63). Hence, Deer Lakes' blue tees are "980 rated." I find this method of expressing a course's difficulty to be much more intuitive than SSA.

[harr0140]

It's the round rating you would get for shooting par from those tees...sort of the converse of SSA. For example, Deer Lakes is Par 66. Shoot a 66 from the blues and your round rating will be ~980 (the SSA is ~63). Hence, Deer Lakes' blue tees are "980 rated." I find this method of expressing a course's difficulty to be much more intuitive than SSA.

WHo has "defined" par????

[DavidSauls]

WHo has "defined" par????

Don't start that. Please.

[Stan McDaniel]

Don't start that. Please.

HAhahahaha!!! We all know that the answer is Chuckie. ;)

[vslaugh]

WHo has "defined" par????

Short answer: the course designer.

Long answer: it's designed to be about as obvious as on a ball golf course, when considering red tees and red-level players, white tees and white-level players, and blue tees and blue-level players. Many design/test/improve iterations helped make sure it was properly calibrated.

To bring it back to the topic of pin locations, each hole at Deer Lakes has three pin locations. None of the pin locations changes the par of a hole, although they certainly can make a hole a lot harder or easier.

[harr0140]

It's the round rating you would get for shooting par from those tees...sort of the converse of SSA. For example, Deer Lakes is Par 66. Shoot a 66 from the blues and your round rating will be ~980 (the SSA is ~63). Hence, Deer Lakes' blue tees are "980 rated." I find this method of expressing a course's difficulty to be much more intuitive than SSA.

I think I am more confused now . . . let me process this all for a week and get back to you

[Danger]

^I get what he is saying. So, how do you feel about determining a stroke average for each pin position. Say the A pin is a 2.5 stroke probability and the D pin is a 3.5 stroke possibility. It would be nice to know the SSA of the current course at its specific pin layout.

Hearing from all the ball golfers, it seems that the pin rotation issue is solved by an even distribution of far and short pins. However, disc definitely doesn't work this way. Out at Sylmar the other week, all but two of the holes were in what we refer to as their 'f--- you positions.' Sometimes, the whole course is set up for ace runs. So, when you get that -6, did you REALLY get a -6? It's almost cheating.

I think if we used that numbering system, especially on courses with more than 6 pin locations, it would keep your actual score closer to an average.

[harr0140]

^I get what he is saying. So, how do you feel about determining a stroke average for each pin position. Say the A pin is a 2.5 stroke probability and the D pin is a 3.5 stroke possibility. It would be nice to know the SSA of the current course at its specific pin layout.

Hearing from all the ball golfers, it seems that the pin rotation issue is solved by an even distribution of far and short pins. However, disc definitely doesn't work this way. Out at Sylmar the other week, all but two of the holes were in what we refer to as their 'f--- you positions.' Sometimes, the whole course is set up for ace runs. So, when you get that -6, did you REALLY get a -6? It's almost cheating.

I think if we used that numbering system, especially on courses with more than 6 pin locations, it would keep your actual score closer to an average.

That is exactly what I am recommending, and it would be based upon a 1000 rated player so it becomes the baseline of par basically.

[vslaugh]

I think I am more confused now . . . let me process this all for a week and get back to you

Let's try describing it another way:

A rating for a set of tees = the PDGA round rating you would earn if you shot an even-par round from those tees.

So, yes, a "tee rating" probably only makes sense if you play disc golf courses whose par system is similar to ball golf in how par is defined and how it is more or less consistently implemented.

[Danger]

Ok. So now we just need to get the dudes with the keys at each course to keep things even. This will be easy!

[harr0140]

I am not lying about this . . . it sounds like the humble beginnings of the "Golf Course Superintendent's Association" . . . sometime we will have dedicated groundskeepers to each course or a collection of courses perhaps. I will gladly submit my resume when it becomes a reality . . .well hopefully I own my own course by that time!!!

[vslaugh]

Ok. So now we just need to get the dudes with the keys at each course to keep things even. This will be easy!

It is if you're one of the dudes with the keys :thmbup:

[Danger]

I am not lying about this . . . it sounds like the humble beginnings of the "Golf Course Superintendent's Association" . . . sometime we will have dedicated groundskeepers to each course or a collection of courses perhaps. I will gladly submit my resume when it becomes a reality . . .well hopefully I own my own course by that time!!!

I'm all for it. If we want to be taken seriously as a sport then we need to take our courses seriously. If somebody is on a DG road trip and they play an allegedly difficult course that is set up in an ace run layout, their review will probably inaccurately portray the course; when actually the course itself portrayed itself incorrectly :)

[Dave242]

I think that what happens often is that the "guy with the keys" plays the course regularly and usually with the same group of buddies. So, it is not his mentality to compare himself against the course..... he compares himself to his buddies - which is entirely independent of which random set of basket locations he chooses. And, his motivation to move things around is to try to keep the course more interesting to himself and his buddies.

[Danger]

^Hear that Zenbot? ;)

Kidding, but for real, Casitas was a real a$$ kicker a couple weeks before March Mayhem. Sylmar is kind of crazy too....*cough* Steve Rico *cough*

[Sadjo]

It's also some work to move baskets. Baskets at one of our area courses seemed to only get moved between rounds at a tournament and at the end of the season...they (the club) like the baskets to be in short positions for the winter months.