PDGA Memberships

[Donovan]

What is the real difference in signing up for Pro over Am. If I was guessing, it meant whether or not you could take prize money home. And how does all this have to do with what division you end up in....like REC?

Thanks in advance for any help with this.

[ERicJ]

In a nutshell it is cash vs. prize/plastic payout. Divisions are dictated by age and/or player rating.

See if this document answers all your questions:
http://www.pdga.com/documents/2008/08DivisionsGuide.pdf

[Doktor John]

I'm waiting until I'm 60 or so to join...that way I may have a fighting chance of being competitive in my age bracket :)

[bikedoctor]

What is the benefit in joining the PDGA?

Without a membership can you buy a one day membership for a PDGA sanctioned tournament?

[ERicJ]

What is the benefit in joining the PDGA?
Without a membership can you buy a one day membership for a PDGA sanctioned tournament?
To quote: http://www.pdgastore.com/Qstore/Qstore.cgi?CMD=011&PROD=1067409736

New members receive:
Lifetime Member Number
PDGA Logo Disc
PDGA Mini Marker w/ Personalized Member Number
Rulesbook
2008 Member Card
PDGA Magazine (if selected)
PDGA Sticker
Election Ballot
Official PDGA communications

Members earn points and player ratings based on their place of finish and scores at PDGA Tour events. PDGA points are used to award World Championship invitations.

You also get the ability to post on the PDGA message board.

I believe the PDGA non-member surcharge for B-Tier and C-Tier tourneys went up to $10 this year. I also remember reading some where that with the increase the verbiage was supposed to change to start calling it a "$10 PDGA member discount" ;)

I think you must be a PDGA member to play in A-Tier and NT events.

And of course the warm fuzzy feeling knowing that you're contributing to the governing body of the sport you love. And they're out there promoting the sport.


Now if you ask me what the benefits of joining the Birdie or Ace Clubs are... they're effectively an additional monetary donation above and beyond your membership. The promo stuff you get from those clubs isn't worth the buy-in. So it's all about donating to the sport.

[Donovan]

ERicJ,

Thanks for the personal note at the bottom of your post. That is the kind of information I was looking for. Personal opinions are what really helps one decide what to do and at what level.

[ERicJ]

What is the real difference in signing up for Pro over Am. If I was guessing, it meant whether or not you could take prize money home. And how does all this have to do with what division you end up in....like REC?

In a nutshell it is cash vs. prize/plastic payout. Divisions are dictated by age and/or player rating.

See if this document answers all your questions:
http://www.pdga.com/documents/2008/08DivisionsGuide.pdf

Okay, just re-read this and want clear up some possible confusion:

PRO divisions pay out CASH.
AM divisions pay out PRIZE/PLASTIC.

You can not sign up for a PRO PDGA membership, play an AM event and take CASH instead of PLASTIC.

There are provisions for AM players entering PRO divisions and taking PRIZES instead of CASH... and provisions for low-rated PRO players playing down to AM divisions. But since neither of these directly effect me right now I haven't looked into them in much detail.

Maybe that was obvious, but I just wanted it to be clear.

[bikedoctor]

Very well spoken ERicJ. That was from the heart.

[Donovan]

So are you saying you CAN signup for a AM as a PRO and get plastic?

I figured AM's can play in PRO events and not win cash, but I didn't think PRO's can play in AM events. Maybe I am making this even more confusing. I do want to sign up, but want to get the most out of what ever I do.

[edge3281]

What is the cost of a membership?

[ERicJ]

What is the cost of a membership?
Most common yearly memberships are Pro (with magazine) $75, and Amateur (with magazine) $50.

See the PDGA site for complete details:
http://www.pdgastore.com/Qstore/Qstore.cgi?CMD=011&PROD=1067409736

So are you saying you CAN signup for a AM as a PRO and get plastic? I figured AM's can play in PRO events and not win cash, but I didn't think PRO's can play in AM events.
If you are a PRO player and your rating is below 970 you can sign up for AM events and the specific division is dictated by your exact rating. See the bottom of the grid in this PDF:
http://pdga.com/documents/2008/08PlayerDivisionsGrid.pdf

I do want to sign up, but want to get the most out of what ever I do.
If you're just starting out you should sign up for an AM membership. Unless you're a total phenom the extra $25 for a PRO membership would be wasted.

[Donovan]

Thanks EeicJ. I can't even spell phenom...thank goodness for cut and paste. ;)

[Russell Gore]

OK, lets take care of Donovan first. Sign up as an AM, preferably the REC (recreational) or newly added NOVICE class. It does not matter how long you have played or how good you are. You are new to the PDGA so you can start and should start at the bottom. You will receive a rating after playing in your first sanctioned tournament. Your rating will be based on several things.......how hard the course is (SSA, Scratch scoring average) how well YOU shoot compared to the SSA, and what the conditions are like that day. This is all kinda irrelevant considering you have to be an accountant to figure it all out, but that is how it works. If you want to look more into this here is a link: http://www.pdga.com/competition/ratings/index.php
Now with that being said the reason I say start at the bottom is, you can really get in over your head. I have tried playing outside of my rating, most recently OPEN (pro) at the Charlie Vettiner Open. I came in dead last and kinda screwed my rating. The class you play in will also dictate your rating. It is all based on the guy in first and his score. So I was 30+ strokes out of first and that is not good. You are better off climbing the ladder from the bottom up. As far as prizes go take the plastic. Once you accept CASH you are PRO for life. So if you place last in the money and excepted $50(just an example) $50 will now make you PRO from here on out. Now they just changed the rule so that PRO's can play AM. The drawback is that you are playing for nothing except a place. You can't except a prize. So there is no need in screwing yourself. I am rated 879, I should honestly be playing in the REC divison because I am below a 900. However I have been playing for 15 years so I feel it would be unfair to those who have just started. So I play Intermediate which is 900 - 935. The ratings chart is at this address: http://www.pdga.com/rules/index.php (click on player divisions and eligibility) this should just about explain everything, if you have more questions ask and I will try and get back with you.


Now for the question from edge3281.................
It is $50 with the magazine
$40 without.
This is a one year membership, however if you sign up now it is only good until Dec 31st. This is for everyone. As of Jan. 1st every year you are no longer a member until you renew.

Here are a few more links to help you guys out. Also tour the PDGA site from top to bottom, look in every area. The site is full of great info and most of it easy to find. Also sometime this year a new site will go up that is supposed to be way better, so keep your eyes peeled.

THE LINKS: RULES...http://www.pdga.com/rules/index.php
MEMBERS....http://www.pdga.com/members.php
TOUR/ SCHEDULE....http://www.pdga.com/schedule/index.php
GENERAL INFO.....http://www.pdga.com/information.php
PRO SHOP....http://www.pdgastore.com/Qstore/Qstore.cgi
COURSE DIRECTORY.....http://www.pdga.com/course/index.php

One more thing, If you would like to see how the ratings work visit my ratings page. I am #26401 or just click on this link:http://www.pdga.com/tournament/playerstats.php
Than click on my Ratings detail and Ratings history. Hope this helps you guys out, now go sign up!!!!!!!

[Russell Gore]

sorry the link to my ratings is no good. Go to the members page and enter my # 26401. that will let you see how it works.

[Donovan]

Russell, that was perfect. you explained it all very well. I will start at the bottom and see how it goes. Thanks so much for your info and the links.

[ERicJ]

sorry the link to my ratings is no good. Go to the members page and enter my # 26401. that will let you see how it works.

Use this URL form for direct access to a specific players PDGA Ratings page:
http://www.pdga.com/tournament/playerstats.php?PDGANum=26401&year=2008

[...]
Now with that being said the reason I say start at the bottom is, you can really get in over your head. I have tried playing outside of my rating, most recently OPEN (pro) at the Charlie Vettiner Open. I came in dead last and kinda screwed my rating. The class you play in will also dictate your rating. It is all based on the guy in first and his score. So I was 30+ strokes out of first and that is not good.
Ummm... I'm not sure that's completely true.

A goal of the PDGA ratings system is to give everyone a number that allows you to compare/rate/rank people regardless of skill division or class.

It's not "all based on the guy in first". The SSA of the course is calculated from all the players rated >799. Then each player's round rating is calculated based on that SSA.

For SSA purposes, there is a split in that a "course" is considered "a set of tees" on a course. So if Open & Advanded divisions play from the long tees and Intermediat & Rec play from the short tees those two groups will be rated separately. Looking at the round ratings for this year's Vettiner:
http://www.pdga.com/tournament/tournament_results.php?TournID=7342&year=2008&include_ratings=1#Open
that's what appears happened.

Looking specifically at Russell's case, he shot 104 in the first round, which was rated at 853. However, because the Int/Rec players played from different tees a 104 in Rec was only rated 839. I.e., the same score from easier tees gets a lower rating.

There may be other ways, but the only way to really get "screwed" on a rating is if you had a bagger with a really low PDGA rating that came in and shot lights out. That would drop the SSA of the course, i.e. make it look like an easier course, and thus lower the ratings of everyone else's rounds. But that's only if there's a very small number of players. At Vettiner there were enough players that one or two baggers wouldn't have had a significant effect. Also, the PDGA police supposedly filter out rounds from ratings that are statistically outside of the norm.

At least that's my understanding of how it works....

[Russell Gore]

Thanks Eric J. I wasn't sure I explained that right. Now I see what it is that effects the ratings. I totally understand what you are talking about. Thanks for clarifying that for me. It never dawned on me that everyone else was playing shorter tee pads.

[Three Putt]

Off topic a little, but you mentioned SSA's.

I have not seen many mention of course SSA's in reviews, but I often see people mention the Par. SSA's are an actual calculation of how difficult a course was at a certain event, while Par is often the pipe dream of how difficult the course designer wishes the course was. While SSA's might skew due to weather conditions, size of field, and other factors (as all statistics do,) for actual evaluation purposes the SSA will tell you more about a course than its Par.

I think in some cases, SSA's can be valuable to help you determine how hard a course really plays. For example in St. Louis we prefer to use multiple courses and spread out our pools, so we don't add holes to the courses for PDGA events. The SSA's are a good indication of how hard the St. Louis courses are.

On the other end of the spectrum, when I lived in Chicago almost every event I went to used only one course and to accommodate the crowd they added temp holes, which throw the SSA out of whack. You can usually tell when this was done as the SSA will list 24 holes for an 18 hole course. So for those courses, the SSA probably does not tell you much.

If you are rating your local course and it has been used for sanctioned events without having holes added to it, the SSA for that course can help tell you something about how hard it actually is as opposed to the made up "par" someone gave it. If you are going to post that your course is a "5" and killer difficult but it has an SSA of 46, that might be a hint that you are overrating the difficulty of your course. ;)

[ERicJ]

Three Putt, very good points about SSA and it giving a much more realistic evaluation than "par".

One other caution I will note: In PDGA events, I've seen several circumstances where the tee box locations were moved due to soggy, muddy playing conditions in the boxes. This is done with the good intention of making it safer for everyone to have solid footing. However, sometimes this can significantly change the challenge of a hole. So even if you see an SSA rating for a course with the normal number of holes, unless you were there and know the tee locations that were used it can still be misleading.

E.g. the recent MacGregor tournament was a soggy mess and we used slightly modified tee boxes:
http://pdga.com/tournament/course_ratings_by_tournament.php?TournID=7736

I've added the SSA values from TX States (http://pdga.com/tournament/course_ratings_by_tournament.php?TournID=7296) to the Quail Valley CC-the LINKS (http://www.dgcoursereview.com/course.php?id=2576&mode=ci) course description.

ERic

[Three Putt]

I'll give this as an example of an SSA that actually is helpful. It is for Endicott Park in St. Louis. http://www.pdga.com/tournament/course_ratings_by_course.php?RatingCourseID=380
As you can see, there are many tournaments listed over several years (2001-2008) and the pin positions are listed. You can see how the course scores tougher as the pins go from a lot of A's & B's to a lot of B's & C's. You will notice that the 2007 Endicott Open is an anomaly, it scores very high despite many A placements. The 2007 Endicott Open was played in a very cold downpour with high winds, so bad weather can create a statistical hick-up. Other than those two rounds, the SSA gives a very realistic picture of what you can expect score wise from that course.

Of course, SSA is the score for a 1000-rated player. My scores are significantly higher :eek:

[Donovan]

Would you agree if you were just trying to see how your rating is at a particular course, you could just take the average of the SSA's in recent days and use that?

[ERicJ]

Would you agree if you were just trying to see how your rating is at a particular course, you could just take the average of the SSA's in recent days and use that?As Three Putt points out the SSA is what players with a PDGA rating of 1000 would be expected to average... on that course... from those tees... under those weather conditions.

So if you're trying to get an approximate rating for yourself then you could average recent SSA's from a course to use as your base SSA value. But if you're seeing/using SSA's that differ by more than a stroke I'd be worried that the you've got apples & oranges in those SSA's and something is different (weather or tees).

[Three Putt]

You'd need to be careful making those assumptions. Her is an example. It is the SSA's from Mid-Nationals last year. At Mid-Nats, the pools are assigned by ratings breaks and the courses are set up accordingly. So for the Blue pool (advanced) the courses were all in "C" pin placments. When the White pool (intermediate) came to play the same course, ALL of the pins were moved to "B" placements. When the Red/Green/Purple pool was there, ALL pins were moved into the "A" placements. This was done so that the course would be set up to the appropriate skill level for each group.

http://www.pdga.com/tournament/course_ratings_by_tournament.php?TournID=6280

So when you look at Sioux Passage, which had all three pools,you can see that the SSA's from red to white set-ups are pretty similar but there is a big change from Blue to White. The SSA from the Blue's to the White's takes a 4.36 stroke plunge. At Endicott, there was a 5.77 stroke difference. At Jefferson Barracks, which did not have the Blue pool, there was a 2.64 difference between White and Red when that difference at Sioux passage was only .37.

Already from the small sample you can see a wide variety of different results from different pin placements. Trying to determine your rating from an SSA history where you don't know how the pins were set up could give you a pretty unreal view of your rating.

[Donovan]

As Three Putt points out the SSA is what players with a PDGA rating of 1000 would be expected to average... on that course... from those tees... under those weather conditions.

So if you're trying to get an approximate rating for yourself then you could average recent SSA's from a course to use as your base SSA value. But if you're seeing/using SSA's that differ by more than a stroke I'd be worried that the you've got apples & oranges in those SSA's and something is different (weather or tees).

Sorry ERicJ, I meant to say average "the recent" SSA's and you can see that is what I did in the other thread (http://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=361) at post 21 that is working this topic over a bit too. ;) :D

[ERicJ]

Right, but just because they're recent doesn't mean they're all the same conditions. Different tees, weather, or as Three Putt points out pin placements will all affect SSA values. Unless you know the exact conditions under which the SSA was determined it can be misleading.

[blang]

I have never played in a PDGA sanctioned event. I was looking forward to receiving a rating, but someone told me that only AM1 gets rated thus if you are playing in AM2 and AM3 you will not get a rating. Does anyone know if this is true? Would it be acceptable for a TD to not submit AM2 and AM3 for ratings?

[ERicJ]

I have never played in a PDGA sanctioned event. I was looking forward to receiving a rating, but someone told me that only AM1 gets rated thus if you are playing in AM2 and AM3 you will not get a rating. Does anyone know if this is true? Would it be acceptable for a TD to not submit AM2 and AM3 for ratings?
Because you're a PDGA member, as long as there are at least five players rated >799 playing the same course (tees & pin positions) as you then you should get a rating regardless of what division you've entered.

[DeafDiscGolfer]

I never joined PDGA membership for the last 12 years. Reasons? Well, for one, I rarely played in PDGA's sanction tournaments. Another main reason of mine is that I did emailed to PDGA and asked them how come they did not include any closed captioned or subtitles in their PDGA' s DVD videos that they are selling.

They (Todd A. Breiner) responded "The PDGA DVD's produced to date do not have closed captioning... I know it has been discussed in the past..." So, they have been putting it off for years and I am not going to join PDGA membership until they become more accessible to everyone. I am sure when we all get older and we will lose some of our hearings and we have no idea what the videos are saying when it happens.

Same thing goes to Innova and Discraft's videos as well. I am very curious to learn more about Discraft's disc golf clinic that I saw on YouTube.com but its not accessible for me or any other people who wishes to watched with subtitles or captioning.

One other thing, the PDGA's players' ratings, what a headaches! I could be a better player than other player at certain courses. So, when the outside visitors played badly at the course and gets bad ratings. They rather to marking it off with "999" to preserve their high ratings that they have been earning from their own home courses. So, what's the point for having ratings? Is it for bragging rights?

I might be wrong and speaking off the track on this one but this is what I have seen when I attend the PDGA's tournaments which, of course I had to pay extra 10 bucks for it.

:rolleyes:

[Donovan]

I will say this much, I watch almost everything with CC. It is just too informative not too. I loved that KING KONG came to our theater and they had it in CC. That was awesome. Anyway, I do understand your frustration.

[ERicJ]

One other thing, the PDGA's players' ratings, what a headaches! I could be a better player than other player at certain courses. So, when the outside visitors played badly at the course and gets bad ratings. They rather to marking it off with "999" to preserve their high ratings that they have been earning from their own home courses. So, what's the point for having ratings? Is it for bragging rights?
'999' is the value recorded when a player doesn't finish a round, or for rounds not played at all in a multi-round tournament.

[JConnell]

Because you're a PDGA member, as long as there are at least five players rated >799 playing the same course (tees & pin positions) as you then you should get a rating regardless of what division you've entered.

Thanks for this info Eric!

[JConnell]

I got my PDGA package in the mail today! The disc was a black 174g Stratus with a gold PDGA stamp and I was surprised to see my PDGA# printed onto the mini.

[djext1]

Yeah I got my package in pretty good time as well. If you are one who likes that little personal stuff like having your PDGA # on things and whatnot...then I would suggest you spend the $10 and buy the bag tag that is in the PDGA store. It's very well made and has your name and pdga # embossed/engraved on it. It's pretty nice and well worth the $10 in my opinion.

Now if they can just get the damn magazine company to get it together :)