Dangerous design in Cape Girardeau.

[peabody]

Hey guys, I just played the new course in Cape Girardeau, Mo. today.
It's a 10 hole course with concrete teepads and Discatcher pins.
It is set in a very busy park. That's not good but not out of the ordinary.
My problem is that childrens playgrounds are in the middle of some fairways.
Here is a letter I wrote to Troy Vaughn. Supposedly he has something to do with this impending problem.
http://www.semo.edu/recservices/news/index_33923.htm

{{{{{{Troy, I just played the new course at Capaha park and am very concerned for the public safety.
Hole #1 plays over a street that has cars frequently passing by. Dangerous/bad design.
Hole #2 plays over that same street and goes over a parking lot. Dangerous/bad design. Cars will be hit and dented.
Hole #3 is the only hole that is almost safe enough. The pavilion to the right will still come into play.
Hole #4 plays right into a playground. Not only is this a bad design but there will be lawsuits galore when innocent children get hit and sent across the street to the hospital.
Hole #5 plays down the same fairway as hole #4. Bad design as it too brings the playground into play.
Hole #6 is fairly safe but Broadway will come into play if the wind is up. .
Hole #7 has Broadway coming into play on windy days.
Hole #8 has Broadway coming into play and there will be cars hit and possibly cracking windshields. Very dangerous and very bad design.
Hole #9 also has Broadway to the right and then has to go over a park road then a park bench is right there close by. Bad design here too.
Hole 10 goes over a road,and a pool to the left which discs will find there way into all summer long plus you have a pavillion right in the fairway then another playground just beyond that.

Sir, I am very glad that someone took the initiative to put a disc golf course in but it seems there was no thought as to where and how it was put in. I am not a course designer but I have played numerous courses and NONE are as dangerous as Capaha park.. I don't want to see any child hurt with these dangerous discs. Capaha park is way too busy for a disc golf course.

I know I sound like an alarmist here but my concern is for public safety. Before you open this course up you should get together with city planners or the parks dept. and discuss these issues before they become problems.

Please feel free to e-mail me back if you have any questions.
Mark Cook}}}}}}}}

Is there something else I could do here? Somebody is def. gonna get hurt.

[andrewtclarkson]

I think you may be coming on very strong, but perhaps that is whats needed to wake the designer up to the safety issues. Maybe he doesnt play?

I'd be scared to hit a kid, these suckers would hurt.

[peabody]

I really don't want to see anyone hurt. If you stood on those teepads like I just did you would freak the heck out. Are there any disc golfers from Cape Girardeau or nearby that might know who designed this disaster?

[Jukeshoe]

I think that's a reasonably worded letter, if the design is truly as dangerous as it sounds. :\

[peabody]

The thing is I will probably not play it again till December or January when there will be nobody around.
I could just leave this alone and have a whotheheckcares attitude. I will take a camera back over there and take a few pics. As you can see from the arial view 4 and 5 play the exact fairway. You can't see the playground equipment dead square in the way. And Broadway(very very busy road) plays along the right side of 7 8 and 9. Any wind, and windshields will crush and crack!

[peabody]

Just got the response back and Troy sounds like a good guy. I don't think he realizes how far a disc can go and not go where it's thrown. I need a St. Louis player to come down and meet me for a quick round and get his thoughts.



{{{{Mark - lots of thought went into the planning of the holes - lots. I appreciate your concerns - really do. I will pass these along.


We just didn't walk out there and blindly pick spots. As you know, the park is smaller so spacing is limited.


Signage is coming with directions, maps, a few boundary lines, etc. As with many courses in parks, there are golf hazards. The pool is being torn down next month and we knew that going in.


The roads you speak within the park are lightly used. We also know that players must be careful when the park is full with activities and events. We will have the ability to skip holes if needed. Thus, the reason for 10 holes. Signage will indicate this.


We do have the ability to move baskets if we see a significant need and we also know players will need some common sense while playing the course.


I'd be happy to talk with you more regarding your concerns. I too played it and we readjusted a few things based on those aspects as well.


Tv}}}}}}

[Cgkdisc]

Talk to Dave McCormack at Gateway for some additional support.

[peabody]

Talk to Dave McCormack at Gateway for some additional support.
This is 100 miles south of St. Louis and they are using Innova baskets. It's also just a 10 hole course so I doubt he is the one to contact.
I should just shut up and let the chips fall where they may.
Good luck Cape Girardeau and may you go accident free.:hfive:

[Three Putt]

Dave does course design everywhere. He designed our course in Rolla, 103 miles away from the Lou. The park was trying to reach him after it went in and he was installing a course in Georgia. So 100 miles is no big deal to him.

Dave got in the middle of of an unsafe course dispute with Hannibal a few years back. It got really ugly, and eventually Innova sent Chappy (a PDGA Course Marshall) out to inspect the design. I'm pretty sure they had to make some changes to the design after that, although not nearly the drastic changes McCormack was calling for.

Innova may have a certain amount of product liability with the baskets, so they probably don't like unsafe designs using their baskets. If you are really that worried about it, you can try contacting Innova and see what they say.

[peabody]

Thanks Three Putt, I just might do that. If you are ever around Cape please stop in and give me your input.

[MikePinchico]

I understand your concern, but I think this is out of your hands. You did what you could. Hell, we could see some great stories come out of this course due to the hazards (I'm an eternal optimist)

[Sadjo]

Is the course actually in Cape Girardeau or a surrounding community? I've got a friend from there that put me in touch with a local parks department just outside of the city and I suggested they call Dave before moving forward.

[Three Putt]

From the news release, it sounds like all the money came from SEMO and the park site was probably chosen more for how close it was to campus than how appropriate it is for disc golf.

The site looks flat and wide open. Nothing about the course looks interesting from a disc golf perspective. Just wide-open throws. The problem with that kind of course in a multi-use park is that the design encourages you to disc up an throw as far as you can. There is no penalty in a golf sense for your shot going off-line, so players will take those shots with a high likelihood of flying off-line. It's just an accident waiting to happen.

I've dealt with this type of issue before, and from my experience you are going to hear a lot of excuses like the one you were given about the roads. The response was that they are park roads that rarely have traffic on them. There is a basketball court in the fairway of #1, but I'm sure you would be told the same thing about it. They will downplay the danger by saying no one is ever going to be on that court.

The reality is that from what I can see of the course from the map, you can probably say the same thing about the disc golf course. It looks flat, open and boring. I've seen a lot of bad course design where the saving grace of the project was that the course was so bad no one ever played there, so the safety issue it created rarely materialized. I can't see a design this bad being very popular.

[peabody]

Really there are some fairly decent holes. I will play it either real early in the morning or during winter months. I did find out that they are putting another course in just north of there and it's in a better area. 55 plus acres and not as much going on there.
I just hope no kids get whacked in the face and become permanantly disfigured.

[Steve West]

Send them this:

http://stevewestdiscgolf.com/Documents/ThrowAnalysis.pdf Each dot will happen once or twice a summer.

It has been my experience that designing for safety means NOT relying on boundary lines, players being careful, cars not using an open road, and common sense.

[jeverett]

Send them this:

http://stevewestdiscgolf.com/Documents/ThrowAnalysis.pdf Each dot will happen once or twice a summer.

It has been my experience that designing for safety means NOT relying on boundary lines, players being careful, cars not using an open road, and common sense.

That diagram and model are very cool looking! The scatter looks pretty reasonable, too. What's up with holes 4 and 5 though? Do they really play directly through the teepad of the opposing hole? That looks frightening..

[peabody]

Send them this:

http://stevewestdiscgolf.com/Documents/ThrowAnalysis.pdf Each dot will happen once or twice a summer.

It has been my experience that designing for safety means NOT relying on boundary lines, players being careful, cars not using an open road, and common sense.

Yea, that's kinda what I thought but wow your take is much more scarry.
Thank you very much for the time it took to do this. I will send it to the guy and see what he says.

[Mongo97]

The designer holding a grudge against basketball and baseball?

"Yeah, the fairway goes through the basketball court and one of the baseball fields. So what?"

[peabody]

You can't see the playground in the middle of 4 and 5 cause it hadn't been built as of the time of the pic.

[scarpfish]

When someone gets conked with a disc and needs stitches or emergency dental work, I wonder who's gonna get blamed.

[Three Putt]

You can't see the playground in the middle of 4 and 5 cause it hadn't been built as of the time of the pic.There is something on the map to the right of the line for # 4 about halfway down the fairway. I was assuming that was the playground. Whatever that is, it is in the middle of the #4-#5 fairway and will get hit with discs from people playing both of those holes as well as by errant shots from #3.

The pin for # 3 will have shots thrown by people playing #5 land in the circle if it is really that close as well. Holes #3-#4-#5 are a really bad design even if they were the only things around there; add in the roads and whatever that building is to the equation and it's a horrible design. If there is a playground right there that can be hit from all three holes, the design is really something from a safety aspect that should never be allowed to happen.

[peabody]

Thanks Three but it is out of my hands. I wrote the guy and told him of the danger. He says a lot of thought went into this.
After all , it's not a destination disc golf course. It's for the college kids and they will be the ones they blame when people get hurt, not the course designers.

[JSurmann]

It's for the college kids and they will be the ones they blame when people get hurt, not the course designers.

Darn white college kids.....




*joke from another thread here*

[pchitti]

The Austin lady saying disc golf is for the yuppie white college kids???

[Three Putt]

http://www.semissourian.com/story/1719739.html

[scarpfish]

http://www.semissourian.com/story/1719739.html

That comments section was, umm, interesting. Maybe someone should send the locals a link to our thread here.

[peabody]

Troy is a member here. http://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=34119



I have sent him the probability map. He has yet to e-mail me back.
It's funny to see them talking in yards instead of feet.

[Three Putt]

I don't know the magic number, but Chuck Kennedy will. You should ask him how far apart two parallel holes need to be for safety if there are no natural features such as trees or elevation to create any sort of barrier. It probably depends somewhat on the length of the holes, but there should be a general rule of thumb to go with. I know back in the day they used to say a safe tee was at least 100' away from the last basket, so I'd guess the middle lines of two parallel fairways at a minimum would have to be 200' apart to be safe. There is nowhere near 200' between #4 and #5. They look closer to 20' apart.

[peabody]

I think they have to go down the exact same fairway for about 100 feet.
When all this flooding is over with I will get back there with my camera and take pics.

[peabody]

Here are a couple of pics.
Tee shot on #4
http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b278/gatedropper/Floodspring2011014-1.jpg
Standing at the playground looking toward the basket
http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b278/gatedropper/Floodspring2011016.jpg
Hole #1 green
http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b278/gatedropper/Floodspring2011004.jpg
Hole #2 tee
http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b278/gatedropper/Floodspring2011007.jpg
And the approach shot
http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b278/gatedropper/Floodspring2011010.jpg

[Mulligan]

Wow. Were those holes designed blindfolded?

[peabody]

Wow. Were those holes designed blindfolded?
LOL
I got more
Here's hole #9's approach shot


http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b278/gatedropper/Floodspring2011038.jpg

And the green
http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b278/gatedropper/Floodspring2011039.jpg

This is looking back down #4

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b278/gatedropper/Floodspring2011020.jpg

Just to the right of that pic is this one. It's #5's tee.


http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b278/gatedropper/Floodspring2011018.jpg

[peabody]

^That last pic is looking down #4 and the one above it is #5 tee. 5 minutes is not enought time for dial-up mistake fixin'.

[peabody]

Hole #10's approach shot. I think I could miss the kids and the cars--------------mabey 50% of the time! hhahaaha

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b278/gatedropper/Floodspring2011045.jpg

[peabody]

BTW all these pics on the last two pages were taken between 1 and 1:45 thursday afternoon. You should see it when it's busy!

[eupher61]

This is 100 miles south of St. Louis and they are using Innova baskets. It's also just a 10 hole course so I doubt he is the one to contact.
I should just shut up and let the chips fall where they may.
Good luck Cape Girardeau and may you go accident free.:hfive:

just to let you guys know, Innova saw this thread and contacted the St Louis club for help. I have calls in to the city and SEMO. It is bad.

[Three Putt]

I missed it when the pictures were posted. Lordy, Lordy that is the most dangerous course I've ever seen, and I've seen some bad ones. Hole # 4 shoots directly over the playground. That's insane. Hole # 9 shooting at the park bench is another highlight. I love disc golf, but I can't imagine ever trying to play that course. Waaayyy to dangerous.

Unfortunately for Innova, they have to get involved. Neither SEMO or the parks department were going to listen to anybody. Innova pretty much has to threaten to pull the baskets to get their attention. Hopefully something can be salvaged there, because Cape needs a course. From the looks of this park, it's not the spot.

[Three Putt]

Oh, wow...they poured tees already. Good Lord they have a mess on their hands.

Word of advice to anybody putting in a course...don't pour tees until year two. It gives you time to tweak the design if it doesn't turn out like you thought it would on paper. Get some landscaping flags and field marking paint and test things out. Once you pour tees, you are screwed.

[ATrainWecker]

Oh, wow...they poured tees already. Good Lord they have a mess on their hands.

Word of advice to anybody putting in a course...don't pour tees until year two. It gives you time to tweak the design if it doesn't turn out like you thought it would on paper. Get some landscaping flags and field marking paint and test things out. Once you pour tees, you are screwed.

Definitely great advice, Three Putt. When I saw the tees in these pictures I couldn't believe it!

[Jukeshoe]

:eek: :eek: :eek:

[Three Putt]

Epic Fail is Epic.

Usually if there are baskets and tees, people rush to get a course on this site. As of an hour ago, no one had been stupid enough to add this atrocity to the database.

I thought Hannibal was bad. This thing makes Hannibal look like an award-winning design.

On the one hand I want it pulled this instant so no one gets hurt. On the other hand I want it to last long enough for me to get down there so I can say I've played the worst designed disc golf course in history.

[eupher61]

I've talked at length with the guy from the City, and am going back down next week. It sounds like he may be open to a somewhat radical redesign, going with as few as 6 baskets and multiple tees per basket. It can work.

They are committed to doing another course in another city park, and it could be a dandy. I'll be hitting that park too, with lots of paper and camera to start work.

Apparently, the city and U were told by the 'designers', 'anything less than 9 baskets isn't worth doing'. That's a shame.

And, I don't think the Hannibal thing was quite like some think it was...just sayin'...

[Three Putt]

And, I don't think the Hannibal thing was quite like some think it was...just sayin'...I've heard about six different versions of what went on at Hannibal, and all of them were fairly slanderous toward a couple individuals. I wasn't there, so I don't know which version to believe. The email the Rec Supervisor sent to everybody he could think of claiming Davey Mac was harassing him was entertaining if nothing else. Terribly unprofessional, but entertaining.

Hannibal is just an example of how wrong these things can go. Honestly it happens all the time. I've offered to help several places that were installing courses and have been blown off. Leo Leathers Park (http://www.dgcoursereview.com/course.php?id=1472) was my favorite. I was the Rec Supervisor in Wauconda at the time, just a few miles west of there. I called and told them I had design experience and could help. I got blown off. Later I found out that they designed the course through an internal "contest" in the department. They gave everybody a Frisbee and told them to design a course. Nobody in the contest played disc golf. They got what they paid for. So Hannibal was a place that blew up and a lot of people heard about, but stupid designs by people who don't know what they are doing and won't listen to people who do happen all the time.

[Gamecock]

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b278/gatedropper/Floodspring2011014-1.jpg

The view from the CONCRETE tee pad at #4 is truly hard to believe. I'm glad to hear Innova is stepping in!