Time to change technique or discs?

[volklgirl]

A little bit of bakground: I started playing in October, throw around 150-180 feet and am recovering from a cracked pelvis caused by a collision with a clueless snowboarder in January.

Just in the last 2 weeks, my understable discs started turning over for me a bit. Then, this week I was finally physically able to add the X-step back into my throw and I find I'm pretty consistently turning over my Star Valk, new X Surge, XL, and Champ Leopard. That was a pretty big break through for me :D! However, I'm also finding that now all my really understable discs like my Pro TL, Champ Sidewinder, Champ Monarch, and my beat X Surge are heading right from the git-go and never coming back :eek:.

Does this indicate a technique flaw I need to fix, or is it time to change my selection of discs? If it's a technique thing, what can I do to fix it? If it's a disc thing, do I need to just start upping the weights (currently throwing all 150s), or do I start choosing more stable discs? I'm finding that I'm really liking the XL and the Eagle now, too.

God. The more I do this, the more hooked I get. There needs to be a 12-step program for DG!!!

[Neophyte]

Well first congrats on the break-through. It is always awesome to see marked improvement like that. I would suggest two things. 1) Get a disc that you currently have in a heavier weight, 165gs or so. 2) Get a more stable disc in 150g or so. That should allow you determine what kind of discs that you need to continue your improvement.

[billnchristy]

I second the heavier and probably the more stable too.

I don't want to give too much advice because I really have no right but my wife throws a similar distance with similar discs as you. The only thing turning over on her is her stingray and we have had that since before 2000...so its probably just dead...got her a new kite to replace it.

I throw in the middle of the chart for stability.

I really like my Gazelles and I just got a Latitude 64 Core which is a pretty damn sweet stable mid.

Does your boyfriend/hubby (cannot remember) throw anything stable? Maybe worth trying a few.

[SomeChump]

A few options:

1) Upgrade the bag
-Same discs, just newer
-same discs, better plastic
-Same discs, just heavier
-More stable molds

2) Start throwing hyzer flips

3) Fix an OAT problem (all that turns is not increased power)

4) Beg borrow and steal

[sonny]

It's not easy to really give advice without seeing you throw... but unless your Star Valkyrie is just beat to a pulp, it's hard to imagine getting high speed turn with it on a throw under 200 feet. I have to suspect you are rolling your wrist over. Have someone watch your throws paying attention to the angle it's leaving your hand. Is it flat or is the outside edge up?

[volklgirl]

Well first congrats on the break-through. It is always awesome to see marked improvement like that. I would suggest two things. 1) Get a disc that you currently have in a heavier weight, 165gs or so. 2) Get a more stable disc in 150g or so. That should allow you determine what kind of discs that you need to continue your improvement.
Thanks! I'm pretty excited!

Looks like maybe I need to steal my 168 Monarch back from hubby and see if that changes things.....

I'm figuring my purple Surge (beat bad) is just toast because my red Surge (newish) turns and then comes back like it's supposed to. Time to put the red one in the bag, along with the Eagle, I guess. (Dern it....I've got a bigger bag, but just can't carry it when it's full yet :rolleyes: Yikes!)

[billnchristy]

Good news is, all that understable stuff you have makes great rollers once you learn how to do it!

[sumner420]

Don't toss the beat discs! Having a consistant right turn in the bag is Handy;)
Congrats on the Power increase! Monarch should help.I am gonna say it
Get a Teebird, you won't regret it!:)
Just my two cents...

[djext1]

I would second the teebird.

[Three Putt]

It's not easy to really give advice without seeing you throw... but unless your Star Valkyrie is just beat to a pulp, it's hard to imagine getting high speed turn with it on a throw under 200 feet. I have to suspect you are rolling your wrist over. Have someone watch your throws paying attention to the angle it's leaving your hand. Is it flat or is the outside edge up?I'd have to agree. At the distance you are getting is probably some sort of OAT. If you were flipping them due to power they would be going farther.

[TalbotTrojan]

Your TL should be a stable disc, not an understable disc, unless it is really beat. To me this says that there is something in your technique that needs to change. Look at grip and release angles and really take time to look at them. I used to put a bunch of Anhyzer on my discs and the last minute from something in my release. This was fixed by a change in grip and a chnage in arm motion. Now things are wonderful and I just need to develop some consistency.

[ERicJ]

"TL"... "stable"? Huh?

http://www.innovadiscs.com/discs/index.html

[TalbotTrojan]

"TL"... "stable"? Huh?

http://www.innovadiscs.com/discs/index.html

Its not overstable and its not understable, it is just plain stable.

[WillA]

It sounds like in an attempt to get more distance you may be unintenionally anhyzering everything. I have a tendency to do that when I need to throw a bomb and it can cause understable discs to go right and never come back.

[innova]

RHBH

Overstable goes to the left
Stable straight
Understable goes to the right

When I hear someone say... "that disc is stable"
to me... that means it goes straight.

We on the same page?

[Three Putt]

Its not overstable and its not understable, it is just plain stable.

RHBH

Overstable goes to the left
Stable straight
Understable goes to the right

When I hear someone say... "that disc is stable"
to me... that means it goes straight.

We on the same page?I think you are.

The Leopard, Cheetah and TL are perceived by some people as less stable than they are. Really, none of the Innova "fairway" drivers are all that understable. If you torque them they will flip, but the natural flight of these discs are more neutral stable than flippy. They get mis-labeled as "turnover" discs becasue you CAN turn them over, but you have to throw them that way. A nice clean flat release with those discs will get you a nice straight flight.

[innova]

If you torque them they will flip, but the natural flight of these discs are more neutral stable than flippy.

Not sure I agree with the premise. In some instances the "natural" flight is meant to be at high speed on some discs... so that is what my perspective of natural would be.

Some folks cannot achieve that level of torque, no doubt... and to them everything is overstable?

I do agree about mislabeling in some instances. I can turn any disc over... is my take on the matter... Even a monster or firechicken and we all can agree those are not understable.

Something like a monster won't "flip" for very long-- that is for sure.

[volklgirl]

Your TL should be a stable disc, not an understable disc, unless it is really beat. To me this says that there is something in your technique that needs to change. Look at grip and release angles and really take time to look at them. I used to put a bunch of Anhyzer on my discs and the last minute from something in my release. This was fixed by a change in grip and a chnage in arm motion. Now things are wonderful and I just need to develop some consistency.
As far as I can tell, every thing seems to coming out flat and straight, but I'll have someone take a look....I keep hoping hubby will do that for me, but he always just shrugs. Sigh.

I should also say that my noted distances are coming on a really wooded course. I'm thinking that in an open field, I may be getting closer to the 200' mark - when I practiced at a our local baseball field, I threw the Leo Pard ;), Valk, and Surge fence-to-fence, but there's no distances marked, so I'd just be guessing.

[OLAD]

Check out this thread... http://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3449

I think we are having the same issue and got some good advice in that thread. I tried the grip suggested on there last night and it made a huge difference. Discs actually went in the direction I wanted.

[Three Putt]

If you torque them they will flip, but the natural flight of these discs are more neutral stable than flippy.

Not sure I agree with the premise. In some instances the "natural" flight is meant to be at high speed on some discs... so that is what my perspective of natural would be.

Some folks cannot achieve that level of torque, no doubt... and to them everything is overstable?

I do agree about mislabeling in some instances. I can turn any disc over... is my take on the matter... Even a monster or firechicken and we all can agree those are not understable.

Something like a monster won't "flip" for very long-- that is for sure.I don't disagree. I think on the high-speed drivers there are many cases of people mis-understanding the true flight of the disc based off the inability to get the disc up to speed. However, for those people the discs should appear to be very overstable VS the intended flight. It does not take as much power to get the fairway drivers up to speed, so that problem is less common in those discs. What I see more often with the "fairway" drivers is poor form causing the disc to turn over.

I DO see the two problems going hand in hand. People who cannot get a high speed driver up to speed will torque them to counteract the hyzer effect. They use bad form to straighten out a disc they don't have the power to throw. Then then apply the same mechanics to a fairway driver and it flips over. The shame is that if they would use good mechanics the fairway driver would be longer and more consistent than the high speed driver they are wrecking their form to throw.

You are also correct that you certainly can turn anything over. A guy I used to play with all the time used one driver, and it was a Viper. He could throw a turnover shot with a Viper. He also had mad skills that I could not replicate. If I had tried to throw turnover shots with a Viper, I'd have gotten dejected and quit playing. Fortunately for me they made the Stingray, so I didn't have to flip a Viper.

[Omega SuperSloth]

teebird long -high speed turn 0 fade 1 technically that would be overstable . im guessing your pro tl is a little beat i would invest in a star tl , i love teebirds but i wouldnt suggest it until you can throw closer to 300.

[t i m]

You've got form issues. Unless you're throwing into a big headwind, most of your drivers should be able to hold stable up to at least 250-300' at 150g weights. If you're flipping drivers at less than 200', you're rolling your wrist or have some other form problem.

[volklgirl]

Cool, thanks.

[billnchristy]

Seems like the 150-200' range is the wall that women hit without serious form upgrades.

Just like 250-300' is our brickwall...or is mine anyways.

Have you tried a sidearm shot? It took me from 150 to 300' in a day.

[sidewinder22]

Sounds like form issue more than disc. Sometimes you need to relax more, not try to kill the disc, and focus on slow smooth pull and then accelerate and followthrough.

[sidewinding]

My nine year old daughter can throw over 250'. Seriously.

Here are a couple of tricks. I read this somewhere when I first started playing and I think it's why I never have had an issue with what people mistakenly refer to as OAT.

key point #1 - Wrist Down - Find the line on your palm that starts close to your wrist and goes at a 45 degree angle towards your first finger. Hold your hand out like you're shaking hands and then swivel your wrist so that the line on your palm lines up with an imaginary line running down the center of your forearm. Now put your disc in your palm right in that line and close your fingers and thumb around it. This is the angle you should keep the disc at when throwing if you want a level nose down throw.

key point #2 - straight pull through - Stand facing a wall with just enough room between your chest and the wall for a disc to pass through. Practice a few reach backs and pull throughs, slowly, this close to the wall as a way to teach what a straight pull through should feel like. When you're on the tee pad, think about a wall being there and remember to pull through straight and close to the body so you won't scrape your hand on the imaginary wall.

[volklgirl]

Have you tried a sidearm shot? It took me from 150 to 300' in a day.
Yeah :eek:. I even posted a thread about that. That throw is going to take some serious work for me :(.

Sidewinding:
Thanks for that. I'd read the wrist/hand line thing but haven't really worked with it much. The wall thing is new, though.

[sumner420]

That wall thing is new...
150 to 300 in a day WTF did you do?!:)
Really ...
Vloklgirl, let that follow through really come around, and the wrist down and arm straight thing is great, as is a really straight back-stand quite erect, it opens the hips so they swing with less effort.
hope it helps
TEEbird!;)

[volklgirl]

After playing today, slowing down and really paying attention to my pull-through and release and the disc and its flight, I think I figured out what's going on.

In trying to out throw hubby, I'm rushing the pull-through and grip locking, sending everything right. Then, by adding the X-step, the problem is accentuated with the hip pain from the left leg crossing behind causing an added funky upper body twist.

My superlight Monarch still turned a little right, but nothing like before, and it came back just like it should. Oh, and all my throws seemed to come out faster and flatter.

Thanks again, guys!! Y'all rock. :)

ps...I got my closest "almost ace" today too - 11 feet from the basket at #17. Woot!!!

[billnchristy]

Awesome!! My wife had a breakthrough tonight too and came within 20' of one of my drives!!

She sure loves her new kite and I am glad because she is happy and excited about playing again.

[volklgirl]

Awesome!! My wife had a breakthrough tonight too and came within 20' of one of my drives!!

She sure loves her new kite and I am glad because she is happy and excited about playing again.
Yay! That is so cool! I'm glad she's liking the Kite. I never could figure out how to throw it, so it found a new home with my DIL and it's really working for her.

[billnchristy]

Its all about the dome...for some reason it feels comfortable to her. She likes the star leopard for the same reason...it seems to have a big dome.