Holes that you consider unfair?

[rowdyray]

Heritage Point in Dalton, GA is one of my favorite local courses. However, I believe #3 borders on being unfair. The hole is around 200 feet but the basket is placed on such a steep hill that any thing that doesn't go in rolls down the hill and then falls off an even steeper "cliff" below the hole. Once you are down the embankment, you really have no clear shot back to the basket. Tee shots will often stay on the initial slope, but any approach or put that doesn't go in rolls down the cliff. There is no grass on the hill, so it is very slick and just walking is treacherous.

So this begs the question, have you ever encountered a hole on one of your favorite courses that you felt was unfair.? If so, did you ever consider enforcing some special rule on said hole?

Or am I just being a whiner?:)

[jenb]

The optional rethrow rule could prove handy here.

[ZBoazMobster]

Hole 4 at Saddle Hills in White Settlement is a bunch of crap.

[Fishy]

11, 14 and 16 @ HP are all on steep slopes, you miss you walk to the bottom and search for your disc, that being said, if I play alone I don't play them, I can find other's discs quick enough but get irritated searching for my own, no value there, These holes are the reason I initially bought my soft Vibram Summit

[Dthunderchicken]

Hole 4 at Baca in Albq. I wouldn't call it unfair but if you miss your putt by throwing past the pin, there's about a 15' drop straight down. Plan on using 2 more shots (and a good walk) to hole out if you miss. Oh yeah and the pin is protected by some trees. This ain't no kiddie course.

[Hyzer's]

There's a hole at the Lowell course that's like 450 feet uphill with a very very narrow fairway.

[bee_ryce]

this might sound like a lame pun but any hole that doesnt have a fairway i consider unfair. Like if the hole is just a mess of random trees, where one guy can throw a shot and get past everything, then the next guy can throw a shot thats just as good and kick off 3 trees

[rusch_bag]

I fail.

[sgamerp]

There's a hole at the Lowell course that's like 450 feet uphill with a very very narrow fairway.

I think its about 500 feet. But yeah this one does suck. But it makes for a fun time.

its 496 after looking it up.

[rusch_bag]

Any reason you have to edit your posts within 5 minutes? Dumb rule no?

attempt two.

Hole 15 rock river disc golf course in watertown.

400+ feet through the woods, no line at all. Has potential to be an awesome hole, but for now it sucks.

From the Pro tee, I think the arrow is pointing at where the next picture takes place cause that is no where near the basket
http://www.dgcoursereview.com/course_pics/1769/44501fca.jpg
From where the arrow was pointing at the first picutre I think?
http://www.dgcoursereview.com/course_pics/1769/1ae13571.jpg
From the basket looking back
http://www.dgcoursereview.com/course_pics/1769/2ec33e69.jpg

[happytree290]

I think it depends on the player. Steep hills don't bother me to much, except having to walk up them. There's one course I went too, in Alton, IA where you literally had to throw the disc over a pond to get it to the basket. The course did have alternate tee's. But I like the challenge so I wouldn't say I hate it. It's just a pain to fish a disc out of the water, if it didn't already sink to a watery grave.

[whiz]

In response to Ruschbag's post. I think a hole like the one you posted is perfectly fine. The trees left in the fairway (imo) make the hole a short par 4. Sure, if the hole was in the open you might be able to get a two but that does not seem to be the point of the hole. If it is (nearly) impossible to get a 3 on the hole then I could see how you might have a point. However, from the pictures you posted it looks like the best route would be to play two accurate sub-225' shots to get a putt on the hole. There are a couple holes like that here in the Charlotte area and I have no problem with them. I am happy to get a three on them. I have seen people get a two on them once or twice but there is enough risk that the reward of getting an eagle is balanced out by the extra strokes added every other time they throw the risky shot.

[notBOB]

holes often referred to as 'poke and hope' piss me off, though i dont think they are necessarily 'unfair'. take hole #15, i think it is, at highland park in joliet. no clear line, just, literally, pick the widest 4 ft gap and hope it hits a tree 150 feet from the tee, not 20 feet away. :| thats just poor designing, imo, but still highland is among my favorites, regardless.

[S.Cann]

Hole #11 in Greer SC.

This hole 400+ that goes downhill and then right back uphill halfway there. The problem is that there is a mess of trees at the halfway point with a deep gully below the trees. Its basically random chance whether you get through the trees or not. If you do hit a tree you're destined for the bottom of the gully.

[tmahan]

Surprised no one's mentioned The Gauntlet at The Woodshed. I actually like it in a masochistic kind of way.

Regarding pins set on the brink of a steep hill, there are several of these at Delaveaga. I like it, gives you something to think about while approching/putting.

[BrotherDave]

More on the topic: Unfairways (http://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=17104)

Hole 14 at Lake's Edge (Reidsville) is a terribly designed hole, it's the tightest S-curve ever and no disc can navigate it unless you throw a thumber that stays vertical forever. I'll kiss the man on the cheek that can get a drop in birdie on this hole.

http://www.dgcoursereview.com/course_pics/1120/97285135.jpg

[tmahan]

More on the topic: Unfairways (http://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=17104)

Hole 14 at Lake's Edge (Reidsville) is a terribly designed hole, it's the tightest S-curve ever and no disc can navigate it unless you throw a thumber that stays vertical forever. I'll kiss the man on the cheek that can get a drop in birdie on this hole.

http://www.dgcoursereview.com/course_pics/1120/97285135.jpg



That's a what I call a religous hole (a roller and a prayer).

[ArcheType]

holes often referred to as 'poke and hope' piss me off, though i dont think they are necessarily 'unfair'. take hole #15, i think it is, at highland park in joliet. no clear line, just, literally, pick the widest 4 ft gap and hope it hits a tree 150 feet from the tee, not 20 feet away. :| thats just poor designing, imo, but still highland is among my favorites, regardless.

Its hole 14, and you obviously just don't know the local routes yet. Tough hole, but not unfair.

I honestly don't think holes that are hard are unfair, I think holes that strongly favor left or right handed people are.

[Lithicon]

http://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=17104&highlight=unfairways

Where is Prerube? /grumbles

[sgamerp]

More on the topic: Unfairways (http://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=17104)

Hole 14 at Lake's Edge (Reidsville) is a terribly designed hole, it's the tightest S-curve ever and no disc can navigate it unless you throw a thumber that stays vertical forever. I'll kiss the man on the cheek that can get a drop in birdie on this hole.

http://www.dgcoursereview.com/course_pics/1120/97285135.jpg

http://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=17104&highlight=unfairways

Where is Prerube? /grumbles

Already been done.

[denny ritner]

seems that there are two distinct considerations that commonly fall under the umbrella of "fairness". there's unfair and there's overly random.

a gold level hole that requires a 450 ft. all-or-nothing carry over water is "unfair". it is overly discriminatory against all, but the longest throwers. likewise a 4 ft. wide gap that is 250 ft. from the tee is "unfair" in that it is overly discriminatory against all, but the most accurate throwers.

overly random holes, which probably make up the greatest fraction of what is commonly thought of as "unfair" are actually fair. they are fair in the sense that given a large enough number of throws, each player is equally likely to get good luck and bad luck. on these types of holes luck takes on a much greater significance in the distribution of scores compared to skill and are, therefore, poor holes. many of these types of holes can be saved by removing some little trees and some branch trimming.

[Spatula Cornroll]

My wife.

[IronLion]

I think it is hole number 10 at Stafford Lake in Novato, Ca. It is 1100 feet and flat. How do you hit it in 3?!?

Also, hole 5 at Shady Oaks in Orangevale, Ca. When it is playing long it is a 528' par 3 that has water hazards and trees everywhere! Double bogies are very common on this hole.

[denny ritner]

I think it is hole number 10 at Stafford Lake in Novato, Ca. It is 1100 feet and flat. How do you hit it in 3?!?

Also, hole 5 at Shady Oaks in Orangevale, Ca. When it is playing long it is a 528' par 3 that has water hazards and trees everywhere! Double bogies are very common on this hole.

Hole 9, Stafford Lake: http://www.dgcoursereview.com/course_pics/774/3557ffaa.jpg

That hole is wide-open. What's unfair? That's like saying that it's unfair that the hoop is 10 ft. high in basketball and I can't dunk on it.

On the Orangevale example, it sounds like that hole is a par 4 in that placement, which means that bogeys are very common on the hole. That is a good thing!

[sactoduck916]

[/IMG]Hole 9, Stafford Lake: http://www.dgcoursereview.com/course_pics/774/3557ffaa.jpg

That hole is wide-open. What's unfair? That's like saying that it's unfair that the hoop is 10 ft. high in basketball and I can't dunk on it.

On the Orangevale example, it sounds like that hole is a par 4 in that placement, which means that bogeys are very common on the hole. That is a good thing!

Actually, being that I play Shady Oaks Like 4 time weekly I know this hole well. Here is a more detailed layout, From the tee it is wide open all the way to the creek which flows up the right side of the fairway. In addition to this about a third up the way there is a ltlltl pesky outcroping of trees that knock many good shots down. Ok if you have a good tee shot the creek comes ito play around 330ish. Then yor aproach shot is wher it get very hard, many trees and no clear ways through to a basket anothe 220 feet or so. this hole as 3 locations which all are Par 3. So when long par is exelent if you achieve it, I have not. Here is a picture from the teepad:

[denny ritner]

ok, without having played it and without a picture of the second shot it's tough to guess whether or not there are adequate routes on the second shot.

hearing though, that the hole is over 500 ft. with tough navigation on the second shot, that is clearly a par 4. you can call a duck a hippopotamus all you want, but it is still a duck.

[jcf5083]

Most of the holes at my home course are unfair because people can shoot better than me on them.

[thrembo]

Any hole 500' to 1000' feet long with a 30' wide fairway cut out of tall grass.

[tmahan]

Any hole 500' to 1000' feet long with a 30' wide fairway cut out of tall grass.



I don't know about unfair but I'll definitely go along with unsavory. I find searching through thigh-high tick infested grass for a slightly offline drive or approach less than enjoyable.

[Mr. America]

IDK about unfair, but any hole that makes me feel like the absolute best thing to do is throw a putter 50' at a time is just annoying.

[BrotherDave]

Any hole 500' to 1000' feet long with a 30' wide fairway cut out of tall grass.

IDK about unfair, but any hole that makes me feel like the absolute best thing to do is throw a putter 50' at a time is just annoying.

I couldn't agree with these anymore. :hfive:

Not so much unfair but something I do not care for at all are what I call "hump holes," where the tee and hole are at the same elevation but there's a hump or rise in front of the tee obscuring the view of the basket. :thmbdown:

[vonDrehle]

What do you think you would list the par 5's out at Nevin unfair or just extremely difficult and boring? For people that can't throw a Roc 400ft on a straight line with zero fade I think I am saying unfair.

[Hector Chain]

I felt that about some of the holes at Rooster Rock East. There are some fun holes there, but then there are several where you are chucking and praying, with a thin alley and no real landing zone.

[sloppydisc]

They are all fair. If you are playing in a tourney or just for bragging rights with a buddy you are all playing the same holes and same course. So what if you can't hole out at Par or below? As long as you're one shot better than your opponent it's all good. What??? Are we all a bunch of grass fairy soccer boys or figure skaters?? Fair?? I've heard of the feminization of society, but I haven't heard of the wussification of disc golf until now. I am very sad.

BTW, I just played Iron Hill in Delaware and some of those holes were long and tough. Well beyond my ability to make par from the Pro pads. Still a nice course. And fair. I just need to improve.

[steveo69]

Any hole 500' to 1000' feet long with a 30' wide fairway cut out of tall grass.

No kidding I play a course called Fairfield in IL. The fairway is cut out of long grass but is a little wider (about 60'). It is the longest hole in IL at I believe 814'. That just sucks (they call it a par 3). Now for someone like me you’re going to have 2 all out drives and a 200' up shot. It's kind of nuts.

[MikePinchico]

Hole 18, Tahoe Vista DGC is 1000' par five. Kinda crazy.

[Mr. America]

They are all fair. If you are playing in a tourney or just for bragging rights with a buddy you are all playing the same holes and same course. So what if you can't hole out at Par or below? As long as you're one shot better than your opponent it's all good. What??? Are we all a bunch of grass fairy soccer boys or figure skaters?? Fair?? I've heard of the feminization of society, but I haven't heard of the wussification of disc golf until now. I am very sad.

BTW, I just played Iron Hill in Delaware and some of those holes were long and tough. Well beyond my ability to make par from the Pro pads. Still a nice course. And fair. I just need to improve.

I think the point is that there are some holes that take to much skill out of play and involve too much luck.

There is a private course here that is my definition of "unfair". I wouldn't ever go there just to play or practice casually, but I enjoy going there with the local club. Like you say, everybody plays the same course so at the time it is "fair", it just factors in more luck than skill which isn't great all the time.

I think of it like the US Open of ball golf. They make the course so damn tough that I think it takes away some of the skill and involves too much luck. It's fun to watch once a year, but I'm sure nobody would want to watch that week in and week out, and the players sure as hell wouldn't want to play in those conditions every week.

[deBebbler]

Any hole that is > 5 hour drive from me is unfair.

[Dave242]

overly random holes, which probably make up the greatest fraction of what is commonly thought of as "unfair" are actually fair. they are fair in the sense that given a large enough number of throws, each player is equally likely to get good luck and bad luck. on these types of holes luck takes on a much greater significance in the distribution of scores compared to skill and are, therefore, poor holes. many of these types of holes can be saved by removing some little trees and some branch trimming.

You are right in what you say IF you players are "given a large enough number of throw". The problems comes when there are only 1-3 such holes on a course, then these holes are not a fair test of skill.

Disc golf courses should allow for more highly skilled players to be able to differentiate themselves from lesser skilled players......that is what is fair.

[Dave242]

What do you think you would list the par 5's out at Nevin unfair or just extremely difficult and boring? For people that can't throw a Roc 400ft on a straight line with zero fade I think I am saying unfair.

I played the course one week ago today. It is a difficult course but very fair. If you do not like tree-lined fairways, this course is not for you. But, the width of the fairways compared to the lengths you are asked to throw are not unfairly narrow......meaning at least 2/3's of throws from Blue level players will find the fairway.

I only throw a Roc 250' straight with no fade (260-270' with some fade) and most of the holes I know that I can birdie if I simply hit my lines.

[ENold]

If better players usually score better on hole x then it is not unfair.

[Dave242]

You are correct.....unless you extend that to every situtation. I am not sure if you are responding to my comments, but I will assume so. What I am talking about is a hypothetical hole like this (and variations on the theme): 200' straight hole with a wall of trees 120' away from the tee that are tightly spaced with 2' gaps.....and throw in that they are too high to throw over, too wide to throw around and there are logs on the ground by the trees to prevent rollers.

Basically any player can reach the basket with a good throw. In a sudden death playoff, is this hole a fair test of skill? I simply can not see how anyone thinks that would be a fair way to end a competition. May as well flip a coin.

Now, a better player WILL end up scoring lower in the long run if this hole is played over and over primarily since he can putt better and the skill of getting up and down from 80' with creative throws is needed too. But it is still an unfair hole due to its random nature.

[chain-addicted]

Most of Nevin to me is "unfair", LOL!

[lion]

none, there all fair just tough. play it smart and layup, take a bogey because some holes a bogey is a win and just play it smart. I've play alot of courses and none were unfair, tough yes.

[Big Nasty]

Its hole 14, and you obviously just don't know the local routes yet. Tough hole, but not unfair.


tommy for the win

[TOURNEYPLAYER]

Hole #11 in Greer SC.

This hole 400+ that goes downhill and then right back uphill halfway there. The problem is that there is a mess of trees at the halfway point with a deep gully below the trees. Its basically random chance whether you get through the trees or not. If you do hit a tree you're destined for the bottom of the gully.

I wouldnt say that the hole is unfair. Tough? For sure!! I never play that hole for a two. just get over the ditch and take my three. i have seen others with much bigger arms than me throw over the trees. RHBH on an anhyzer. but if you can throw 220 straight you can get a 3 no prob.

[jmhoekst]

Hole #10 at Todd Park in Austin, MN.

This hole is similar to many in the world, 450' tunnel shot. The fairway is ~12-15 feet wide and has overhang so overhand shots are not an option. The reason I call this hole "unfair" is because of you go off the fairway, which 95% of people do off the tee, then it gets very thick very fast.

IMHO, if you have a hole like this, then you shouldn't overly-penalize people for going off the fairway.

[leftyone]

any hole that doesn't have a fair line for both a right handed player and left handed. I know someones gonna say "you need a better anny" or "throw a forehand", look my rating is 834 i get out and play maybe once a week. due to work don't have that much opportunity to play league and everything else. if i could i'd play everyday but i can't, and most courses favor a right handed player. just my .02 which isn't worth much

[jtbingster]

any hole that doesn't have a fair line for both a right handed player and left handed. I know someones gonna say "you need a better anny" or "throw a forehand", look my rating is 834 i get out and play maybe once a week. due to work don't have that much opportunity to play league and everything else. if i could i'd play everyday but i can't, and most courses favor a right handed player. just my .02 which isn't worth much

That's what makes dg fun and challenging... if every hole had a hyzer line then we wouldn't have ams and pros.

[Triflusal]

any hole that doesn't have a fair line for both a right handed player and left handed. I know someones gonna say "you need a better anny" or "throw a forehand", look my rating is 834 i get out and play maybe once a week. due to work don't have that much opportunity to play league and everything else. if i could i'd play everyday but i can't, and most courses favor a right handed player. just my .02 which isn't worth much

play easier courses if you want disc golf to be easy.

[cmcolomb]

Heritage Point in Dalton, GA is one of my favorite local courses. However, I believe #3 borders on being unfair. The hole is around 200 feet but the basket is placed on such a steep hill that any thing that doesn't go in rolls down the hill and then falls off an even steeper "cliff" below the hole...

Or am I just being a whiner?:)

Fun little course, very technical and challenging - you could brand almost any hole out there as being unfair... but then, yes, you would be a whiner ;)

IMHO, I enjoy and even relish these seemingly 'unfair' or 'impossible' holes. There will always be that ONE time where you had a really good shot!!

[cyberspace wrangler]

They are all fair. If you are playing in a tourney or just for bragging rights with a buddy you are all playing the same holes and same course. So what if you can't hole out at Par or below? As long as you're one shot better than your opponent it's all good. What??? Are we all a bunch of grass fairy soccer boys or figure skaters?? Fair?? I've heard of the feminization of society, but I haven't heard of the wussification of disc golf until now. I am very sad.

BTW, I just played Iron Hill in Delaware and some of those holes were long and tough. Well beyond my ability to make par from the Pro pads. Still a nice course. And fair. I just need to improve.

^right on time

for all you whiners, please bring cheese to the course so we can spot you. Tough hole don't make a player better, right?

[Ace D]

i consider several holes unfair at winter park in kewaunee, wisconsin. the one i can recall specifically has the name right on its sign, "the crapshoot". you have to throw straight as a laser for a couple hundred feet and then stop the disc dead to park it by the hole. no fade allowed. a few of the neighboring holes, all you can really do is chuck at the wall of trees and hope it gets through.

[Dave242]

I assume these are couple of them you are referring to (Winter Park):

#8 - 200'
http://www.dgcoursereview.com/course_pics/2030/eb5f6dad.jpg

#8E - 215'
http://www.dgcoursereview.com/course_pics/2030/557ca3b1.jpg

Tough.......certainly. IMO, they are over the edge of the 2/3 rule of thumb - 2/3's of the throws of the players of the intended skill level should be able to navigate the fairway "successfully". But still, there is a fair path to putting range that will reward the skill of accuracy (the holes are quite short).

[Spatula Cornroll]

Looks like crouching tiger.

[sgamerp]

http://www.dgcoursereview.com/course_pics/1251/51c8fa07.jpg

I don't think so, but a lot of people who first try this place out things Hole 6 at fallasburg is hard. It's only 204, and there is a small line, but if you don't hit it your done. Kind of hard to see it in this picture, maybe I will try and get a better one tomorrow.

[leftyone]

ok seriously, since i was joking before this hole i consider unfair
http://www.dgcoursereview.com/course_pics/3037/78806c84.jpg?rand=9930
though it's 740 from the whites its very windie. no way i have a shot at hitting this one in 3

[KniceZ]

I don't mind tough technical holes - it just shows me that I need better accuracy. But I don't like the holes that have a bunch of random trees scattered between the tee and the basket. Maybe some would consider requiring 300+' drives with 4-5' wide gaps between trees okay but I find success to be pretty much random and consider then frustrating and unfair. And we'll often just grant a throw-over when someone hits one of the trees 50' from the tee.

[shoe59]

i consider several holes unfair at winter park in kewaunee, wisconsin. the one i can recall specifically has the name right on its sign, "the crapshoot". you have to throw straight as a laser for a couple hundred feet and then stop the disc dead to park it by the hole. no fade allowed. a few of the neighboring holes, all you can really do is chuck at the wall of trees and hope it gets through.

I assume these are couple of them you are referring to (Winter Park):

#8 - 200'
http://www.dgcoursereview.com/course_pics/2030/eb5f6dad.jpg

#8E - 215'
http://www.dgcoursereview.com/course_pics/2030/557ca3b1.jpg

Tough.......certainly. IMO, they are over the edge of the 2/3 rule of thumb - 2/3's of the throws of the players of the intended skill level should be able to navigate the fairway "successfully". But still, there is a fair path to putting range that will reward the skill of accuracy (the holes are quite short).

I played those today, including "The Crapshoot" pictured below. I saw it skillfully-parked today (not by me), so the shot is there. Mark me down as a believer.

I used to despise those 3 particular holes because I thought they were unfair, but maybe I just need to get better... My drives all hit a tree within 50' today, took it as a practice session for my get outta jail shots.
http://www.dgcoursereview.com/course_pics/2030/a5689126.jpg

[The dude on the bike]

Heritage Point in Dalton, GA is one of my favorite local courses. However, I believe #3 borders on being unfair. The hole is around 200 feet but the basket is placed on such a steep hill that any thing that doesn't go in rolls down the hill and then falls off an even steeper "cliff" below the hole. Once you are down the embankment, you really have no clear shot back to the basket. Tee shots will often stay on the initial slope, but any approach or put that doesn't go in rolls down the cliff. There is no grass on the hill, so it is very slick and just walking is treacherous.

So this begs the question, have you ever encountered a hole on one of your favorite courses that you felt was unfair.? If so, did you ever consider enforcing some special rule on said hole?

Or am I just being a whiner?:)

It sounds more stupid than unfair since everyone has to play it. I know a guy who has a course and he loves to make holes like that so he can sell more plastic and cryin towels at his store. (ONE DISC)

[superberry]

I played those today, including "The Crapshoot" pictured below. I saw it skillfully-parked today (not by me), so the shot is there. Mark me down as a believer.

I used to despise those 3 particular holes because I thought they were unfair, but maybe I just need to get better... My drives all hit a tree within 50' today, took it as a practice session for my get outta jail shots.
http://www.dgcoursereview.com/course_pics/2030/a5689126.jpg

The Crapshoot is no longer a crapshoot because we moved the pin such that the hole plays straight, with a slight fade right at the end. It is now called ThE Tightest Gap, because 75% of the way down the airway is a cluster of trees that funnels down the opening to 4-5'.

These holes, #8, #8E, and #9, at Winter Park are simple and fair, and just 3 of 27. Their tight narrow straight airways (2 slight anhyzers, 1 slight hyzer) contribute the the balance and variety of the park.

#8 is 200' and you can see that a tree on the right at midfairway bends the airway and forces almost a small s-curve due to a tree in front of the pin. Throw a buzzz, putter, thumber, pancake thumber, for a nice tight little s curve.
http://www.dgcoursereview.com/course_pics/2030/eb5f6dad.jpg?rand=4018

Do the same thing on #8E at 215', but with the obvious fade right on E, you can also sidearm, or put a little more on the putter so that it keeps turning right.
http://www.dgcoursereview.com/course_pics/2030/22828ec5.jpg?rand=1909

#9 at 245' also offers a bit more, there is the main fairway with 3 staggered ash trees that create a narrow gap for a straight throw, but because they are staggered, you can curve and bend around them. Most people also don't see the 'alternate fairway' unless they look at the sign. On the right side, we've cut open an airway for a straight up RHBH hyzer shot - think Zone or Drone or even stable driver.
http://www.dgcoursereview.com/course_pics/2030/6b1e7edd.jpg?rand=764

[denny ritner]

ok seriously, since i was joking before this hole i consider unfair
http://www.dgcoursereview.com/course_pics/3037/78806c84.jpg?rand=9930
though it's 740 from the whites its very windie. no way i have a shot at hitting this one in 3


How is that unfair? I'll go back to my basketball hoop analogy. If the hoop's taller than 6' it must be unfair.

[Skunk]

I'm surprised that nobody mentioned about half of the holes at Summit


My wife.

Quote of the thread! :hfive:

[shoe59]

These holes, #8, #8E, and #9, at Winter Park are simple and fair, and just 3 of 27. Their tight narrow straight airways (2 slight anhyzers, 1 slight hyzer) contribute to the balance and variety of the park.

They certainly do add another dimension of challenege to the course.

Thanks for the tips on those holes! Can't wait to get back there and shoot better than +10... course kicked my A and I need some revenge.

I did park #15 after a couple tries though!

[Ace D]

also i'd like to complain about 17 at grignon park in kaukauna, wi. getting a 2 on this hole is equal to an ace on a short (but tight) 150-200 foot hole. huuuge dogleg.

[optidiscic]

This thread should be renamed......I suck and these holes eat me alive

[optidiscic]

but seriously Ive learned there are many styles and ways to play disc golf and it does differ from region to region.....but for sake of the thread theres a few holes I dont understand in Forked Run State Park in Ohio...one goes straight up then turns left down a corridor about 5 ft wide and a few hundred feet long with a steep 30-40 ft cliff running the entire left side with plenty of plinko tree action....this is a hole I dont understand and being older I didnt like as Im not very agile anymore to go down and retrieve my disc endless times....I really hate that hole

[slowRoll]

Hole # 13 at Cane Creek Park in Cookeville TN is what I would consider an unfair hole.
http://www.dgcoursereview.com/course_pics/380/523d3d31_m.jpg

No true fairway, just a trio of 4' wide gaps to hope you make. An anhyzer putter/mid shot to most skilled players: The multiple pin settings on this hole are comical since you have just as much chance of landing at one as the other depending upon which tree you kick off of. I guess that being in TN, I am used to the tight fairways. TN and NC players seem to be used to tight wooded holes. Most of the images you have posted above look like they are very fair faiways.

FYI: If you can drive a truck through it, it is fair.

[koogs]

Any reason you have to edit your posts within 5 minutes? Dumb rule no?

attempt two.

Hole 15 rock river disc golf course in watertown.

400+ feet through the woods, no line at all. Has potential to be an awesome hole, but for now it sucks.

From the Pro tee, I think the arrow is pointing at where the next picture takes place cause that is no where near the basket
http://www.dgcoursereview.com/course_pics/1769/44501fca.jpg
From where the arrow was pointing at the first picutre I think?
http://www.dgcoursereview.com/course_pics/1769/1ae13571.jpg
From the basket looking back
http://www.dgcoursereview.com/course_pics/1769/2ec33e69.jpg

That's the best hole on the course. Not to sound like a bragging a-hole, but I routinely par that hole and I've hit metal on my birdie shot a few times (OK, maybe twice). I love that hole!

[shoe59]

FYI: If you can drive a truck through it, it is fair.

If you're talking about the Winter Park pics... you couldn't fit a geo metro through those gaps.

[superberry]

If you're talking about the Winter Park pics... you couldn't fit a geo metro through those gaps.

'Tis true. I have to be careful maneuvering my ATV through hole 8, 8E, and 9!!!

[Cgkdisc]

It takes a little effort but you can determine whether a "par 3" hole is unfair or not. If the distance to the hole (in an open field) would be reachable by the majority of the skill level the hole design is intended for, then at least 60-70% of a pool of players (say 50) at that skill level should be able to land within 40 feet or so of the target. If 50% or less of players get within 40 feet or so of the hole, what differentiates the hole design as a skillful challenge from a simple coin flip? This data can sometimes be obtained in a sanctioned event based on scoring percentages by normalizing the pool of players to the reference rating for that skill level (1000, 950, 900, 875>)

[Dave242]

I tend to agree to an extent, but is the following reasoning sound? For a segment of players, D is the main skill that differentiates them (makes up strokes on the field), others it is putting, and others it is a "navigating tight lines" sort of accuracy.

So, I think the basic percentages need one extra level of refinement - maybe have 50 players each throw 10 shots each and at least 33% of them need to land within 40' 70% of the time (I just made those up off the top of my head.....and yes, this would be a ton of work to measure)

This all is assuming a course is made up of a variety of different holes and that all/most skills are being tested.

[Cgkdisc]

I'll make the blanket statement that those who are at the highest end of the distance range for a skill level are actually players from a higher skill level that haven't practiced or learned how to do the other things needed to actually play at that higher skill level yet. So I summarily dismiss them from this determination. ;) On a well designed course for a skill level, having distance will gain little advantage that can't be overcome by players with average distance for the skill range and have solid other skills.

So, I think the basic percentages need one extra level of refinement - maybe have 50 players each throw 10 shots each and at least 33% of them need to land within 40' 70% of the time (I just made those up off the top of my head.....and yes, this would be a ton of work to measure)

That's fine. I developed a course design term called the Whacur Factor where the throwing distribution on an open field throw is compared to one of the same length in the woods. That ratio of Wooded to Open net distance would need to be above a certain percentage (60%?) or the hole was either too tight (Whack) or too sharp of a curve (Curve). Thus, Whacur=Whack+Curve

[ShopTom.com]

Heritage Point in Dalton, GA is one of my favorite local courses. However, I believe #3 borders on being unfair. The hole is around 200 feet but the basket is placed on such a steep hill that any thing that doesn't go in rolls down the hill and then falls off an even steeper "cliff" below the hole. Once you are down the embankment, you really have no clear shot back to the basket. Tee shots will often stay on the initial slope, but any approach or put that doesn't go in rolls down the cliff. There is no grass on the hill, so it is very slick and just walking is treacherous.


I've played this course 3 times and didn't finish that hole twice. There was a decent shot back up the cliff, but I wasn't going to make the climb back up to get my disc!

Quite simply, there is no landing area for your disc. I drive my putter at the blind basket and if my disc doesn't happen to stop, neither do I.

[DavidSauls]

It takes a little effort but you can determine whether a "par 3" hole is unfair or not. If the distance to the hole (in an open field) would be reachable by the majority of the skill level the hole design is intended for, then at least 60-70% of a pool of players (say 50) at that skill level should be able to land within 40 feet or so of the target. If 50% or less of players get within 40 feet or so of the hole, what differentiates the hole design as a skillful challenge from a simple coin flip?

Intuition?

Using a skill level of ME (admittedly a statistically small group), I might execute what I'd call an "excellent" throw 30% of the time. Not "heroic", just very well executed. If a hole allows me to park the basket with an "excellent" throw, but have little chance at a 2 with a non-excellent throw, well, I'd consider it fair. Tough, but fair.

If a hole allows my excellent throws to get through 30% of the time, and my poor throws to get through 30% of the time---that's unfair in my eyes.

I'd just expand that concept to the skill level the course was designed for.

[Dave242]

I'll make the blanket statement that those who are at the highest end of the distance range for a skill level are actually players from a higher skill level that haven't practiced or learned how to do the other things needed to actually play at that higher skill level yet. So I summarily dismiss them from this determination. ;) On a well designed course for a skill level, having distance will gain little advantage that can't be overcome by players with average distance for the skill range and have solid other skills.

I think varying philosophies on this adds good variation to courses. I do not totally agree with your philosophy (and maybe neither do you hence the ;)), but I have noticed a similar thing which is maybe what you are saying stated in a different way:
distance without accuracy does not accomplish much. On an open 400' hole a 450' thrower who lands 40-50' away from the target is not a whole lot better off than a 300' accurate thrower. Sure every few holes he picks up a throw on the long holes, but he quickly looses those throws in the woods.

That's fine. I developed a course design term called the Whacur Factor where the throwing distribution on an open field throw is compared to one of the same length in the woods. That ratio of Wooded to Open net distance would need to be above a certain percentage (60%?) or the hole was either too tight (Whack) or too sharp of a curve (Curve). Thus, Whacur=Whack+Curve

Maybe I do not understand this fully, but I see the Whacur working really well on mostly straight holes (neat way of looking at it), but not really working on more sharply curving holes. Have you done any measuring to correlate scoring spread to the factor or that that why you have the ? after 60%. Seems like a Steve West sort of project! :thmbup:

[Cgkdisc]

With 50% or lower being in the coin flip category, I just suggested 60% be the minimum acceptable value. I've done no measurements. Just proposing the concept of the Whacur Factor and how it would be measured.

[Steve West]

All this talk about a very simple concept:

"Any hole that lets someone else score lower than me is unfair."

The only possible elucidation you could add to this is to cross your arms, stomp your feet, and stick your lower lip out.

[1978]

What do you think you would list the par 5's out at Nevin unfair or just extremely difficult and boring? For people that can't throw a Roc 400ft on a straight line with zero fade I think I am saying unfair.

I think you just took a bad score and are sore about it.
The par 5's except #12 are pretty easy as wooded par 5's go. Neither require you to throw rocs 400' for any of the shots.

This is how I play them to get a par and birdie. (sometimes eagle 5&17)

Hole #5
Stable buzz around corner back hand. 250'
TL or Teebird sidearm up the hill through the gap. 250'
Rhyno or Destroyer tommy to the basket down hill 120'
Drop in 4.

You can also throw a meteor or beat roc/coyote type disc on an extreme hyzer to get around the dogleg and the flatten out up the hill to the gap. Then you have 4 shots to get 350' for par. Easy.

Hole #10
Stable disc of any kind 70% power backhand. Its a wide open shot for a wooded hole and just gets you around the corner.
Next shot is a TL BH up the hill or a flippy destroyer sidearm.
Next is an anny backhand with a buzzz the remaining 220' or an easy sidearm.
Another birdie hole.

Hole #17.
Tighter BH but plenty of room high to the top of the hill.
Sidearm all the way to the 90' left sign
Jump putt for an Eagle attempt.

If you miss the first shot. Layup to the top of the hill and repeat. I have seen plenty of birdies from people having to layup 30' on their second shot.

Hole 12
Your guess is as good as mine and I designed th hole. Everything is wide open, even the woods on this hole except the gap to enter the woods.

I guess it would look like this.
350' drive
300' into woods shot
280' Hyzer...maybe something high that stands up straight a bit
20' putt for birdie.

If you are 950 rated or more and you relax and take your time with these holes you should play them -1. Most people just go to big and nevin is designed for big arm throwers.

-Mark

[RussMB]

http://www.dgcoursereview.com/course_pics/3280/96521c3d.jpg
Bill Smith Park in North Carolina (http://www.dgcoursereview.com/course.php?id=3280#). It's a hole that will require a hyzer or a healthy fade. These are the wall of trees that will require luck to get through. A birdie is still possible, but I just don't like feeling like I'm playing miniature disc golf.

FWIW: 2000th post! :cool:

[optidiscic]

If I leave a hole and took a triple bogey but swear I can get a birdie on it thats fair....often I get addicted and wanna come back and get my revenge on this hole

If I leave a hole and took a triple bogey and swear theres no way I could ever make par on it I don't consider that fair.....I never feel any desire to play such a hole again and there is no addictive property to such hole


I swear I can 5 Nevin....the fairway is there

I swear there was no way I was ever gonna hit par on many of the Paw Paw holes when I played there and frankly many of those holes are not on my addicted list to ever play again

[Stan McDaniel]

http://www.dgcoursereview.com/course_pics/3280/96521c3d.jpg
Bill Smith Park in North Carolina (http://www.dgcoursereview.com/course.php?id=3280#). It's a hole that will require a hyzer or a healthy fade. These are the wall of trees that will require luck to get through. A birdie is still possible, but I just don't like feeling like I'm playing miniature disc golf.

FWIW: 2000th post! :cool:

My wife and I played that course a couple of years ago. My gut feel is that they were not allowed to remove trees from the property. There were two or three holes like the one you showed. While I won't make that 45 minute drive from Sunset Beach to play the course again, if it was between no course and a few holes that I would be glad to have the course.

[Stan McDaniel]

Regarding 1978's response (quoted below) to vonDrehle's post on Nevin

"If you are 950 rated or more and you relax and take your time with these holes you should play them -1. Most people just go to big and nevin is designed for big arm throwers."

-Mark


I believe that he meant to say Nevin is NOT designed for big arm throwers. That is because Nevin is NOT designed for big arm throwers. If you can control a 250'-300' shot you will do well there.

[optidiscic]

http://www.dgcoursereview.com/course_pics/3280/96521c3d.jpg
Bill Smith Park in North Carolina (http://www.dgcoursereview.com/course.php?id=3280#). It's a hole that will require a hyzer or a healthy fade. These are the wall of trees that will require luck to get through. A birdie is still possible, but I just don't like feeling like I'm playing miniature disc golf.

FWIW: 2000th post! :cool:

I see lanes...it's just that you are not a good enough player

:p

I love when people say that to me in all their superior glory

[grodney]

I think you just took a bad score and are sore about it.
The par 5's except #12 are pretty easy as wooded par 5's go. Neither require you to throw rocs 400' for any of the shots.

I found Nevin impossible to play the first time through. However, the 2nd time through, I had no trouble making pars. (I play about 910-930 golf, can't throw more than about 320, don't throw particularly straight, and rarely make a putt outside 20 feet.)

I took par on all 4 par 5's.

I wouldn't call them "unfair" or "extremely hard". I understand the sentiment of "boring", though that's not the word I would choose. It takes patience and discipline to throw the required shots. You can't rip it, you can't bomb it.

[VictorB]

I won't list any particular holes, but holes designed to punish good tee shots really irritate me. Or holes with manufactured difficulty (ie no particular fairway to throw to).

I throw on a lot of holes that most people think are 'unfair' out at Indian Hills here in town, but they are all makable shots, you just have to be on your game. I hate it when I make a good shot to the green then roll down a hill because the layout is setup to punish shots that land close to the basket. Not good course design.

[optidiscic]

Nockamixon, Iron Hill, Nevin, these are the courses that many consider unfair These are also the courses I think are the best and FAIREST challenges in the world. Oh and I suck btw.
Nevin has lines but you have to adjust your expectations and place your DRIVES......unlike some other wooded courses where you are placing approach after approach (this is boring) You have to execute a good drive and another good drive to set up your approach. If you simply go approach approach your playing bogey golf.
Nocky, Iron Hill, and Nevin all do this better than most courses....you simply cannot lay up repeatedly without going over par and beyond.....you have to execute or your done. If youre not good enough its your shortcoming and not the corse.

I consider random plinko hell and super secret oob to be maddeningly unfair.

[optidiscic]

I won't list any particular holes, but holes designed to punish good tee shots really irritate me. Or holes with manufactured difficulty (ie no particular fairway to throw to).

I throw on a lot of holes that most people think are 'unfair' out at Indian Hills here in town, but they are all makable shots, you just have to be on your game. I hate it when I make a good shot to the green then roll down a hill because the layout is setup to punish shots that land close to the basket. Not good course design.

Good design allows for a sweet spot to hit that sets up an ideal second shot......if your running the basket are you bypassing the sweet spot or is there none?

[VictorB]

Good design allows for a sweet spot to hit that sets up an ideal second shot......if your running the basket are you bypassing the sweet spot or is there none?

I'm talking about on reachable holes, like <325', or long holes (550'+) that require a good upshot to the green to get a par.

[Hyzer's]

Aforementioned hole #5 at Fallasburg.


http://www.dgcoursereview.com/course_pics/1251/9715a00c.jpg


It's really not unfair, considering it's a par 5.

[VictorB]

I'm talking about on reachable holes, like <325', or long holes (550'+) that require a good upshot to the green to get a par.

Let me elaborate in this double post since I can't edit the last one.

I typically don't run at baskets, I play for birdies where most people like to run at aces - it gives me the best chance at the best score.

If you're playing a safer, smart shot, and still get punished for it (ie ridiculous roll away when you're trying to lay up) that's what I'm talking about.

[Dave242]

Regarding 1978's response (quoted below) to vonDrehle's post on Nevin

"If you are 950 rated or more and you relax and take your time with these holes you should play them -1. Most people just go to big and nevin is designed for big arm throwers."

-Mark

I believe that he meant to say Nevin is NOT designed for big arm throwers. That is because Nevin is NOT designed for big arm throwers. If you can control a 250'-300' shot you will do well there.

Agree 100%.

I personally like Nevin better than Renny Gold for this reason. I am not a big arm thrower (~300 accurate, ~350' useful golf D, 270' max Roc shot), so there are several places at Renny that are less than exciting for me. And, that is the way it should be since Renny Gold is a Gold level course and I am a Blue level player. Conversely, I can see players that rely on big D being frustrated at Nevin.

I think the design at Nevin is perfect for Blue level players (and perfectly fair).....and provides a worthy challenge for Gold level players too. Great job designing......and incredible work in getting the course installed (I cannot imagine the work involved!).

[Stan McDaniel]

I can assure you that Mark Huether and Matt Keatts put in at least 1500 hours into building Nevin. If anybody didn't know how much time and energy goes into carving a course out of the dense woods and brush with chainsaws and manpower, well, that is about the size of it.

[Mando]

I can assure you that Mark Huether and Matt Keatts put in at least 1500 hours into building Nevin. If anybody didn't know how much time and energy goes into carving a course out of the dense woods and brush with chainsaws and manpower, well, that is about the size of it.
The ultimate irony for us old guys is that after running a chainsaw and dragging limbs, you may be too beat up to enjoy your work...back on topic, #3 Hilton.

[1978]

I can assure you that Mark Huether and Matt Keatts put in at least 1500 hours into building Nevin. If anybody didn't know how much time and energy goes into carving a course out of the dense woods and brush with chainsaws and manpower, well, that is about the size of it.

Thank god for the economy. We both put in about 7 hrs a day 7 days a week for 4 months. 7AM to 2PM almost every day. That was just the initial building.

And yes, I meant that it is NOT built for people launching drivers (except a few holes). If you don't like to think, and plan when you play, or if you prefer to throw, marvel at how far the disc will go, and force your friends to watch it until it lands...relishing the chorus of ooos and ahhhs; you will not like Nevin.

[RKelly]

All this talk about a very simple concept:

"Any hole that lets someone else score lower than me is unfair."

The only possible elucidation you could add to this is to cross your arms, stomp your feet, and stick your lower lip out.

This is maybe my favorite post of all time!

[Dave242]

Why is that? It sounds witty and pithy, but it really says nothing.....since it applies to every hole everywhere.

[magictenor1]

Why is that? It sounds witty and pithy, but it really says nothing.....since it applies to every hole everywhere.ditto

[magictenor1]

The only holes that I find to be unfair are the really long ones that are sometimes still called par 3's. The ones that I am talking about do not meet PDGA, CR or any other recognized definition of par.

[Plankeye]

More on the topic: Unfairways (http://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=17104)

Hole 14 at Lake's Edge (Reidsville) is a terribly designed hole, it's the tightest S-curve ever and no disc can navigate it unless you throw a thumber that stays vertical forever. I'll kiss the man on the cheek that can get a drop in birdie on this hole.

http://www.dgcoursereview.com/course_pics/1120/97285135.jpg

I've landed a shot 10 feet from the basket on this hole. I got 1 lucky kick.

[RKelly]

Why is that? It sounds witty and pithy, but it really says nothing.....since it applies to every hole everywhere.

Exactly!
It also applies to WAY too many people, everywhere.
It just made me laugh.

[Dadio]

Alt #10 on HighBridge in Spokane. Long par 3 into woods w/no approach to speak of and pin is on end of ridge line w/ steep drops to all sides. Course maint people seem to agree as seldom see it there, we call it a par 4 personally and rarely make that.

[Midnightbiker]

I really enjoy playing the Windwood Course in Houston, but I hate holes 8 and 9:

Hole 8 is only 227ft, its a narrow fairway and then a hard left turn. The basket is only a feet from a 3 ft drop off into a nasty stream that runs through the course. I have to use a Hydra to putt at this hole, so I don't loose my putter, and I have had to help fish several others putters out of this water behind the basket.

http://i226.photobucket.com/albums/dd166/Midnightbiker/Hole8aWindwood.jpg


Hole 9 is only about 210ft, but the basket, is again so close to the water, that if you miss the Ace, and don't catch a tree, you are in the water and getting a stroke. The water is only 6 inches deep, but its still a stroke. It sucks to have two holes almost the same back to back on the same course. Other than these, its an awesome course. Here is hole 9



http://i226.photobucket.com/albums/dd166/Midnightbiker/Hole9Windwood.jpg

[wabrown23]

Heritage Point in Dalton, GA is one of my favorite local courses. However, I believe #3 borders on being unfair. The hole is around 200 feet but the basket is placed on such a steep hill that any thing that doesn't go in rolls down the hill and then falls off an even steeper "cliff" below the hole. Once you are down the embankment, you really have no clear shot back to the basket. Tee shots will often stay on the initial slope, but any approach or put that doesn't go in rolls down the cliff. There is no grass on the hill, so it is very slick and just walking is treacherous.

So this begs the question, have you ever encountered a hole on one of your favorite courses that you felt was unfair.? If so, did you ever consider enforcing some special rule on said hole?

Or am I just being a whiner?:)

I have played Heritage a few times and I actually really enjoy 3. Loft a putter over the center pine trees and let it set down on the top shelf and it generally will slide down near the basket. Has worked 4 of 5 times for me, the other was to far left and hung on the outside of the steps.

Of that course I do not like hole 4, that stupid small tree right in the rhbh lane kills it, plus the new pine tree that is across the fairway.

[chrishank]

Heritage Point in Dalton, GA is one of my favorite local courses. However, I believe #3 borders on being unfair. The hole is around 200 feet but the basket is placed on such a steep hill that any thing that doesn't go in rolls down the hill and then falls off an even steeper "cliff" below the hole. Once you are down the embankment, you really have no clear shot back to the basket. Tee shots will often stay on the initial slope, but any approach or put that doesn't go in rolls down the cliff. There is no grass on the hill, so it is very slick and just walking is treacherous.

So this begs the question, have you ever encountered a hole on one of your favorite courses that you felt was unfair.? If so, did you ever consider enforcing some special rule on said hole?

Or am I just being a whiner?:)

I have to agree with you on this hole. I played the course once and that hole is the one I lost a disk on. There is not even a sign to warn you. That would help.

[smyith]

its been a long time since ive played Carroll Marty (http://www.dgcoursereview.com/course.php?id=287&mode=ci)in AMes, IA. but the pro tees there have to be the dumbest placements ive ever seen in 80 some courses played. holes #1 and #13 were just dumb. the teepads had trees just piled directly in front of them. you basically had to hit a 2ft x 2ft window with a near perfect shot to have a look. the pics look a lil different than they used to 6yrs ago tho so they may have improved or just took good angle pictures.
Hole #13, trees used to be smaller but 2x as much and all the way up to about 1015ft in front of the pad.
http://www.dgcoursereview.com/course_pics/287/f39e09f4.jpg
Brown Deer (http://www.dgcoursereview.com/course.php?id=1042&mode=hi) in Milwaukee had a really hard hole at worlds, #15 i think. it was a ridiculously tight gap with angled trees intersecting the fairway. theyve since cleaned out those angled trees and made it alot more doable without loosing the real intended challenge of the hole. i remeber at worlds people took some nasty scores on that tiny little 200ft hole.
http://www.dgcoursereview.com/course_pics/1042/3a44d94a.jpg

[Steve West]

its been a long time since ive played Carroll Marty (http://www.dgcoursereview.com/course.php?id=287&mode=ci)in AMes, IA. but the pro tees there have to be the dumbest placements ive ever seen in 80 some courses played. holes #1 and #13 were just dumb. the teepads had trees just piled directly in front of them.
http://www.dgcoursereview.com/course_pics/287/f39e09f4.jpg
[URL="http://www.dgcoursereview.com/course.php?id=1042&mode=hi"]
http://stevewestdiscgolf.com/images/f39e09f4fixed.jpg

So, this is fairer?

[cydisc]

its been a long time since ive played Carroll Marty (http://www.dgcoursereview.com/course.php?id=287&mode=ci)in AMes, IA. but the pro tees there have to be the dumbest placements ive ever seen in 80 some courses played. holes #1 and #13 were just dumb. the teepads had trees just piled directly in front of them. you basically had to hit a 2ft x 2ft window with a near perfect shot to have a look. the pics look a lil different than they used to 6yrs ago tho so they may have improved or just took good angle pictures.
Hole #13, trees used to be smaller but 2x as much and all the way up to about 1015ft in front of the pad.


Well, as a local and the guy who placed the long pads on this course, I can say both of these holes are very birdy-able, provided you have the right skillset. The long tees, as one might expect, are geared toward the higher-skilled player, so a certain level of difficulty is what you should expect.

The holes you mention, #1 (not shown) is quite reachable with a right-handed forehand or left-handed back. It can also be rolled with success.

#13 (shown) has 3 options: rolling, slight left-to-right to the right of the left-most tree, or super-sky left-to-right over/around the trees.

[CwAlbino]

its been a long time since ive played Carroll Marty (http://www.dgcoursereview.com/course.php?id=287&mode=ci)in AMes, IA. but the pro tees there have to be the dumbest placements ive ever seen in 80 some courses played. holes #1 and #13 were just dumb. the teepads had trees just piled directly in front of them. you basically had to hit a 2ft x 2ft window with a near perfect shot to have a look. the pics look a lil different than they used to 6yrs ago tho so they may have improved or just took good angle pictures.
Hole #13, trees used to be smaller but 2x as much and all the way up to about 1015ft in front of the pad.
http://www.dgcoursereview.com/course_pics/287/f39e09f4.jpg



Hate to say it, but maybe you shouldn't be playing the pro tees if you find both of those holes unfair. I've hit metal on #13 from pro tee, and most definitely parked hole 1 on multiple occasions. In fact, I have to power down so I don't pass hole 13, big anhyzer out and over the trees makes that hole my favorite hole of the course. That, or throw a forehand right through the trees, both are actually rather easy holes.

[basketcase15]

its been a long time since ive played Carroll Marty (http://www.dgcoursereview.com/course.php?id=287&mode=ci)in AMes, IA. but the pro tees there have to be the dumbest placements ive ever seen in 80 some courses played. holes #1 and #13 were just dumb. the teepads had trees just piled directly in front of them. you basically had to hit a 2ft x 2ft window with a near perfect shot to have a look. the pics look a lil different than they used to 6yrs ago tho so they may have improved or just took good angle pictures.
Hole #13, trees used to be smaller but 2x as much and all the way up to about 1015ft in front of the pad.
http://www.dgcoursereview.com/course_pics/287/f39e09f4.jpg
Brown Deer (http://www.dgcoursereview.com/course.php?id=1042&mode=hi) in Milwaukee had a really hard hole at worlds, #15 i think. it was a ridiculously tight gap with angled trees intersecting the fairway. theyve since cleaned out those angled trees and made it alot more doable without loosing the real intended challenge of the hole. i remeber at worlds people took some nasty scores on that tiny little 200ft hole.
http://www.dgcoursereview.com/course_pics/1042/3a44d94a.jpg

lol they didnt take all the trees out only the one that was about to fall over, it still looks pretty much the same! tough tough hole

[basketcase15]

im assuming u mean the birch trees on the left

[basketcase15]

Hole 8 "the hallway" at winter park in Kewaunee WI is crazy, its less than 4 feet wide in between some of the trees

http://www.dgcoursereview.com/course_pics/2030/eb5f6dad.jpg

[saltybigjim]

These 2 tiny gaps definitely look do-able but I get a little anxious just looking at the pictures. I feel like if you were to hang some string 4 feet apart I could throw through it often but the fear of the punishment you get for hitting a tree would cause me to fail more often. A leak my game, I guess. Thanks for exposing it

[prettyboyfloyd]

There is a lively discussion on the NWDG news site about the upcoming Calapooia Classic at Bryant Park in Albany, OR this upcoming weekend over the difficulty of some of the holes. The summary being that the most skilled who get the most luck will probably win the tournament.

The holes under discussion are difficult and require smart planning and skillful shots. Yet I keep thinking "Isn't that the point?" I love challenging holes. I love getting better at challenging holes. Will I get a good kick every now and then? Yes. My goal is to give myself the best chance at making par at the most difficult of holes.

Maybe I'm a sadist, but I'd rather play the local course I average +5 (about 4 difficult holes) than the one I average even on (about 1 difficult hole).

[DavidSauls]

.....the most skilled who get the most luck....

Can't quite get my brain around that concept.

[magictenor1]

Can't quite get my brain around that concept.
I think he means that the better players will still be the only ones with a shot but luck will be a big factor between the best players.

[DavidSauls]

Thanks, that's not how I read it. Admittedly, I don't know the holes in question.

[ElementZ]

Consistently getting lucky = skill.

[denny ritner]

I really enjoy playing the Windwood Course in Houston, but I hate holes 8 and 9:

Hole 8 is only 227ft, its a narrow fairway and then a hard left turn. The basket is only a feet from a 3 ft drop off into a nasty stream that runs through the course. I have to use a Hydra to putt at this hole, so I don't loose my putter, and I have had to help fish several others putters out of this water behind the basket.

http://i226.photobucket.com/albums/dd166/Midnightbiker/Hole8aWindwood.jpg


Hole 9 is only about 210ft, but the basket, is again so close to the water, that if you miss the Ace, and don't catch a tree, you are in the water and getting a stroke. The water is only 6 inches deep, but its still a stroke. It sucks to have two holes almost the same back to back on the same course. Other than these, its an awesome course. Here is hole 9



http://i226.photobucket.com/albums/dd166/Midnightbiker/Hole9Windwood.jpg

Death putts are a GOOD thing, the sport needs lots more dynamic greens. You always have the option to lay the disc up underneath the basket. The game needs a lot more short shots that require touch and decision making. It is not golf to throw a drive to "park" every hole without thinking about danger and then putt 30-40 footers for "birdie" without thinking about danger.

[mashnut]

I agree, those look like great holes. The length makes you want to go for the ace but you really have to take the green into account.

[DavidSauls]

Death putts are a GOOD thing, the sport needs lots more dynamic greens. You always have the option to lay the disc up underneath the basket. The game needs a lot more short shots that require touch and decision making. It is not golf to throw a drive to "park" every hole without thinking about danger and then putt 30-40 footers for "birdie" without thinking about danger.

22 Baskets, 11 with O.B. a factor on putts, 12 with potential rollaway slopes, including a few with both (rollaway to OB), 19 with at least some trees within 30' to maneuver putts around.....and 1 flat, treeless, 40' from O.B., just for variety (or a break, after 2 water crossings).

Yeah, we love dynamic greens too.

[Green Aarrow]

Several holes at Basil Marella come to mind.

[DiscGolfer947]

also i'd like to complain about 17 at grignon park in kaukauna, wi. getting a 2 on this hole is equal to an ace on a short (but tight) 150-200 foot hole. huuuge dogleg.

thats actually a legitimate par 4, you have to lay up on your first shot and then go for the green on your sencond shot. it is not unfair in anyway, just very freaking hard...i struggle to 5 that hole, im ussualy in the creek at least once when i play that hole.:wall:

[chickenonabun]

thats actually a legitimate par 4, you have to lay up on your first shot and then go for the green on your sencond shot. it is not unfair in anyway, just very freaking hard...i struggle to 5 that hole, im ussualy in the creek at least once when i play that hole.:wall:

Thats one of the few example of holes around here which actual require multiple placement shots. I really like it, I've gotten a few fours but I don't know if I've ever gotten a three.