Course designer monopolies?

[BrotherDave]

I've noticed a trend in new courses in my area. If they're put in by Innova, they're designed by Russell Schwartz. Now, any courses put in around me are great and I'm thankful for it but for some reason or another, Schwartz's designs are not my favorite, as opposed to Harold Duvall or Stan McDaniel. And often, whenever I hear Schwartz's name mentioned locally I see more than a few people roll their eyes, making me think I'm not alone.

Does it bother anyone else that a single designer can hold so much sway in an area? Now if I lived in Charlotte and had to play Stan McDaniel's designs all the time, I wouldn't complain but if you're not a fan of elevated baskets and risky greens etc you probably have a gripe as well.

Also, I don't want this to sound like a personal rant against Schwartz, I do like a few of his courses and appreciate his work. Just wondering if anyone else has noticed designer monopolies in terms of geography and think this a good thing or a bad thing.

PS, if Russell Schwartz or anybody affiliated with NE park in McCleansville needs some volunteers to help get that course in DG shape my brother and I are available, shoot me a PM.

[Spatula Cornroll]

Bowling Green is the same. People want to bash the guy, but he has done more for the sport in the area than any of them have. Some of the courses in the state he has put in kinda stink (minimal land available) but I am glad he is here, and continues to care as much as he does.

[allinpflop]

The courses designed in Pittsburgh are all designed by J. Gary and we love them!!! Glad we have such a good course designer.

[BarkBuster]

Yeah all of the courses around here are designed by Johnny Sias. That man likes tight fairways. Love the courses though.

[BrotherDave]

^I'm assuming these are Innova guys, right? I presume that with the exception of MI and St. Louis areas Innova designers are the law of the land, correct?

[Cgkdisc]

I think there might be more designers using DGA/Discraft targets than Innova unless they actually work for or are sponsored by Innova. Many times it's the Park Dept that determines which targets are bought and not the designer based on (low) bidding. So in some cases you see lower level targets like DB5s going in. In Minnesota for example there are maybe around 10 courses with Innova targets out of the 150+ courses.

[smyith]

that problem is everywhere. and in some cases its not a problem. for instance, in the twin cities (and i may be wrong here) most of the courses are designed (or assisted) by Chuck or Timmy Gill. Love both of their designs. they differ alot in their approach, and it creates alot of great golf.
then there is what has started to happen around here. clubs and small groups of people have been doing the leg work and doing collabration designs among many of the active dgers in the area. im really excited for some of the new courses going in having seen their basic layouts. i remember many years ago it was very hard to get a good course put in. there used to be this old school designer who would get involved (uninvitied by the people who did all the work to get its approval). this guy (cant remember his name) loved pitch-n-putts and would either kill the project or get them to change to a pitch-n-putt style. i dont know if he is just not in that game anymore if people have figured it out and keep the project under the radar until they got a firm grasp of some design control.

[Cgkdisc]

Bill Ashton, Steve West and Mike Snelson are other designers in the DGCD who have designed more than one course in the Twin Cities area and surrounding region.

[chain-addicted]

Schwartz did Fox Chase (http://www.dgcoursereview.com/course.php?id=659)... Dont be hatin'. That course is the down right shizz.
http://i244.photobucket.com/albums/gg4/NoirAvatars/The%20Mighty%20Boosh/The%20Strange%20Tale%20Of%20The%20Crack%20Fox/th_8fwbgc1.png

[BrotherDave]

Oh no, I love Fox Chase, and Anderson and Lake's Edge are both really good but a few of his courses always seem to have a hole or two that make you scratch your head.

I'm not saying he's a bad designer by any means, it's just his style (short, L-shaped holes; fairways not thinned out enough) that's starting to get on my nerves.

Variety is the spice of life, right?

[deBebbler]

Bowling Green is the same. People want to bash the guy, but he has done more for the sport in the area than any of them have. Some of the courses in the state he has put in kinda stink (minimal land available) but I am glad he is here, and continues to care as much as he does.

Agreed. We have a guy here that has been involved in every course within 50 miles of me in the last decade or so. He gave us some great design input on our course we designed last year, and he runs our local league.

Innova/Discraft wouldn't know who he is, but I'm glad he's around, and we need more like him.

He does take some s#!t from people, but they keep playing his courses.... :)

[Sadjo]

I know Russell, not all that well, but it seems to me for communities that buy Innova Baskets and include an Innova design in the cost, you're going to have Russell design the course if its in the Southeast US.

I think we're lucky in my area to have courses all with different designers. I think of the 10 closes courses to where I live have 10 different designers. One them is a Russell design and another is a Harold Duvall design.

[DSmith]

I've noticed a trend in new courses in my area. If they're put in by Innova, they're designed by Russell Schwartz. Now, any courses put in around me are great and I'm thankful for it but for some reason or another, Schwartz's designs are not my favorite, as opposed to Harold Duvall or Stan McDaniel. And often, whenever I hear Schwartz's name mentioned locally I see more than a few people roll their eyes, making me think I'm not alone.

Does it bother anyone else that a single designer can hold so much sway in an area? Now if I lived in Charlotte and had to play Stan McDaniel's designs all the time, I wouldn't complain but if you're not a fan of elevated baskets and risky greens etc you probably have a gripe as well.

Also, I don't want this to sound like a personal rant against Schwartz, I do like a few of his courses and appreciate his work. Just wondering if anyone else has noticed designer monopolies in terms of geography and think this a good thing or a bad thing.

PS, if Russell Schwartz or anybody affiliated with NE park in McCleansville needs some volunteers to help get that course in DG shape my brother and I are available, shoot me a PM.

We've had that here in Kentucky since the first courses went in. Not so much a monopoly but more so because they were the only ones doing the work to design a course. It wasn't till recent years that a few more people decided to take a stab at course design.

I think what people fail to see is that the course isn't necessarily "done" after it's installed. There's almost always tweaking/fairway cleanup/underbrush cleanup etc. that alot of time the original designer left up to the local "clubs" to take care of. In other words designers usually are present till the initial cutting and installation is done then they go to work on the next project unless it's a course in their immediate area.

[smyith]

Bill Ashton, Steve West and Mike Snelson are other designers in the DGCD who have designed more than one course in the Twin Cities area and surrounding region.

is there a list of who did what or do i have to go through course by course?

[optidiscic]

I find the designer concept humorous...in my region its a bunch of different designers and its made for a nice mix of courses. I also think its best for a designer to be a local as he will keep up with the maintenance and upkeep...needed tweaking etc on a course.
Too often a fly by night designer doesnt know enough about the local park or piece of land to design it to its best potential....how wet is it in spring ...how thick in summer....typical traffic and pedestrian usage...events...popular gathering points and on and on. A designer who gets PAID to walk in design a course throw it in the ground and disappear..Makes no sense to me. Not calling out the designers but it seems silly to me to grow the game this way.

[tistoude]

The monopolies will exist as long as those people are the only ones willing to dedicate the time and sweat to get a course in the ground. Like allinflop said, pretty much all the courses in the Pittsburgh area are designed by one guy, with a lot of help from numerous people, and we have lucked out that he is amazing. But even if the designs were poor I couldn't complain because I have not personally spent the hundreds of hours walking the property, submitting proposals, negotiating with local towns and commitees, busting my hump to cut down trees and clear brush that is involved with getting a course in. I am sincerely thankful that these guys exist. If you are ever interested in doing a design yourself a lot of the time these are also the guys who will lend a hand and give you sound advice.

[bradharris]

I think monopoly is the wrong term. A monopoly implies competitive imbalance. It's not like there are courses searching for designers and one name always pops up. More often than not it's one person with the initiative to go out and create courses. Those courses wouldn't exist if it wasn't for them.

To get back onto the topic of the thread, here in New England we have a great variety. It seems that nearly every course was designed by a different person. Most courses have strong league followings to do upkeep and any necessary redesigns.

[gottafixit]

Of the courses I played in Austin I found that since most were Houck designed they had similar feels to them, and if you played multiple of them in a short span of time you might be looking for a change. However more people are stepping up to the table every day and designing courses and thats great because Variety is the spice of life. I also think club collective is a good approach although I'm sure a tough one.

[vonDrehle]

I would say in NC we are pretty lucky to have several of Stan's and Harold's courses in range to play on. I'm not sure if I have played any of the other fellas but I may have. I don't mind the same person doing courses as long as they work different things in. If one guy designs 4 courses that end up just being the same course over and over again with the holes numbered differently then I would definitely have a problem with it.

[superberry]

I've noticed a trend in new courses in my area. If they're put in by Innova, they're designed by Russell Schwartz. Now, any courses put in around me are great and I'm thankful for it but for some reason or another, Schwartz's designs are not my favorite, as opposed to Harold Duvall or Stan McDaniel. And often, whenever I hear Schwartz's name mentioned locally I see more than a few people roll their eyes, making me think I'm not alone.

Does it bother anyone else that a single designer can hold so much sway in an area? Now if I lived in Charlotte and had to play Stan McDaniel's designs all the time, I wouldn't complain but if you're not a fan of elevated baskets and risky greens etc you probably have a gripe as well.

Also, I don't want this to sound like a personal rant against Schwartz, I do like a few of his courses and appreciate his work. Just wondering if anyone else has noticed designer monopolies in terms of geography and think this a good thing or a bad thing.

PS, if Russell Schwartz or anybody affiliated with NE park in McCleansville needs some volunteers to help get that course in DG shape my brother and I are available, shoot me a PM.

In my area/state, there are a few more vocal and politically influencial designers who, in my humble opinion, are overly conservative, old school, and ultimately lazy. What I mean by lazy is that they design and work with what the park has, as is, rather than get creative, push the envelope and actually cut deeply into unique and wooded areas to showcase natural terrain better. What I mean by oldschool is the same old ho-hum courses with a tee in an open area (because it's too much work to dig out a tee up on a ridge somewhere or back in the woods), and a pin that is wide open within 50', or maybe one tree within 30'. With these wide open tee areas, you're never really framing up an 'airway' or forcing a player to make a specific shot. There is also little attempt to make greens risky, get into the mental game and make players think about the possibility of rollaways or blowby if they miss a putt and possibly have two on the way back. Risky and protected greens also play a vital role in drives and upshots. If the green is bordered by thick brush somewhere, you need to get your upshot in a place where you won't have to deal with that.

I'll flat out say that I'm disappointed, or at least underwhelmed with so many courses. I prefer courses that require skill, precise execution, varied execution, and one that brings the HUGE mental game into play.

[tallpaul]

Somewhat referencing Tim's (Superberry) comments above: The positive side of the "course monopolies" is that the designers (Houck, Duvall, McDaniel, Kennedy, McCormick, etc.), have a great varied experience and know the difference between a high quality course and a lesser one. Some of the designers that Tim is speaking of, have much more limited experience.

Tim is also encouraging extreme design and lots of work. He knows, from first hand experience, what this entails and so, he's not asking for more than, what he has himself done. However, limited funds and work crews limit what many of these guys can do. They have a great passion for the game, but are, perhaps, not driven to the extreme measure that Tim is....

I played seven David McCormick designs this past weekend; and have to say that, though, there are some, from his area (roughly St. Louis), that would have complaints on aspects of his design (primarily that they are too tough); his courses are very high level skill layouts. He is veering in the opposite direction from what Tim is speaking of; and tends to design courses geared toward the gold level player.(this makes great sense considering that Nikko is his nephew).

So, there is the other end of the spectrum that is being explored. Chuck Kennedy's designs tend to be more along the "let em have fun/Steady Ed philosphy". All types of courses are needed.....Tim, if you want tough; you just have to search it out.

[smyith]

In my area/state, there are a few more vocal and politically influencial designers who, in my humble opinion, are overly conservative, old school, and ultimately lazy. What I mean by lazy is that they design and work with what the park has, as is, rather than get creative, push the envelope and actually cut deeply into unique and wooded areas to showcase natural terrain better. What I mean by oldschool is the same old ho-hum courses with a tee in an open area (because it's too much work to dig out a tee up on a ridge somewhere or back in the woods), and a pin that is wide open within 50', or maybe one tree within 30'. With these wide open tee areas, you're never really framing up an 'airway' or forcing a player to make a specific shot. There is also little attempt to make greens risky, get into the mental game and make players think about the possibility of rollaways or blowby if they miss a putt and possibly have two on the way back. Risky and protected greens also play a vital role in drives and upshots. If the green is bordered by thick brush somewhere, you need to get your upshot in a place where you won't have to deal with that.

I'll flat out say that I'm disappointed, or at least underwhelmed with so many courses. I prefer courses that require skill, precise execution, varied execution, and one that brings the HUGE mental game into play.

you know ive always wondered why more designers dont use the land better and really make use of the natural features. ive always been stuck between 'are they just too lazy?' or 'is the park district holding them back?' Realistically not all of the design is left up to the designer. ultimately it requires the approval of the property owner. they might be the ones limiting the design.

id say at least 50% of the courses ive played have made poor use of the natural features and you can tell they didnt want to put the effort in. the 2 courses ive got to design (both temp) i used every natural feature i could after exploring the land vigorously. it requires WAY MORE work but its WAY MORE worth it in the end.

[superberry]

I bet I have every Dave Mac course that I know of on my wishlist.

I LOVE Forest Junction and still want to get to the Ridge!

The call of Stoney Hill will be answered in June. I'll save Charlotte for a week long extravaganza.

Mont du Lac has been calling as well, I'll be answering the call soon.

[tallpaul]

Foundation is in the long pins right now. That thing is a beast in the longs....

I can hook you up with the locals....

[Sadjo]

Designing a course isn't as easy as some would like to believe. As someone who has sold a lot of courses to communities and individuals, I've only once headed up a design of a course. I've been involved but prefer to let someone else design.

I've only recently been including a design fee in my proposals because I believe I have a better eye than I used to have and my more recent proposals are for courses in my immediate area and I know I can devote more time to doing the design right.

One recent course I sold and handed off the design project is really not a good design. Anyone would probably enjoy each hole as the course plays very nicely and offers a moderate amount of challenge. The problem with the design is there was little to no thought put into safety. When the community that ends up buying a course due to my presentation, will most likely becoming to me if there is a problem or safety issues, that's another reason I've decided to become more involved.

[Lewis]

A big name designer installing a bunch of courses in your area? Sounds like a blessing more than a curse. Definitely a problem many parts of the country would love to have.

[tallpaul]

Designing a course isn't as easy as some would like to believe. As someone who has sold a lot of courses to communities and individuals, I've only once headed up a design of a course. I've been involved but prefer to let someone else design.

I've only recently been including a design fee in my proposals because I believe I have a better eye than I used to have and my more recent proposals are for courses in my immediate area and I know I can devote more time to doing the design right.

One recent course I sold and handed off the design project is really not a good design. Anyone would probably enjoy each hole as the course plays very nicely and offers a moderate amount of challenge. The problem with the design is there was little to no thought put into safety. When the community that ends up buying a course due to my presentation, will most likely becoming to me if there is a problem or safety issues, that's another reason I've decided to become more involved.

There are a ton of issues involved that many who have not been through the process are unaware of....

[1978]

you know ive always wondered why more designers dont use the land better and really make use of the natural features. ive always been stuck between 'are they just too lazy?' or 'is the park district holding them back?' Realistically not all of the design is left up to the designer. ultimately it requires the approval of the property owner. they might be the ones limiting the design.

id say at least 50% of the courses ive played have made poor use of the natural features and you can tell they didnt want to put the effort in. the 2 courses ive got to design (both temp) i used every natural feature i could after exploring the land vigorously. it requires WAY MORE work but its WAY MORE worth it in the end.

Ive designed my own courses and holes and spent a lot of hours with Stan. Here are my reasons.

1. Yes, ironically, park departments and naturalists dont walk in the woods. You spend hundreds of hours planning and you uncover cool trees, rock formations, and water ways. THEN you go on a walk through and you aren't allowed to use something that no one knew was there.
- I find it frustrating when I see 500 acres of a park bulldozed for ball fields and then I get restricted in the remaining 9 acres and not able to put a basket by the root system of a large tree....

2. Cost and feasibility. Sometimes it is just too hard to get concrete and machinery to certain parts of the course...or build the proper retaining walls and water diversions to create the hole properly.

3 Laziness? Just time spent on the course? like you mentioned. Some designers fly in, mark up a course in a weekend and leave it for the club to build. Or even local designers don't put in the pre-work. They miss the cool things you see at different parts of the year. I spent 2500 hrs at Nevin building it. Stan 100's designing the initial layout. I only noticed after it had opened that #5's basket was 50' from a creek that would have been $$ to include (if even for aesthetics) in the design.

4. Inexperience. What makes a cool hole or design. What do discs do.

5. Another resource one like #8 but... sometimes there is a natural opening in the woods, you use what you can get... the really pretty hole can't be made easily.

6. Limiting of machinery by park department.

7. Layout of land...also, sometimes when you walk a course and see something neat, you dont know that really it isnt park property, or in Bradford Park's (Huntersville NC) case...that potential cool hole is an Indian natural heritage area.

8. This is a biggy!!! Work is done by less than 1% of those who are serious about DG. Sometimes the coolest features of a course are the hardest to build and prepare. When it is you alone in the woods with a chainsaw for months at a time with no one volunteering to help you, well...I guess this is for the designers that actually work on their own courses they've designed.

[superberry]

^^^^

Nevermind you alone in the woods with a CHAINSAW. Try alone in the woods with a handsaw for trees and brush, shovel for digging every sleeve hole and levelling every tee, and your arms legs and back for lugging baskets and buckets of conrete uphill (140' elevation).

[smyith]

8. This is a biggy!!! Work is done by less than 1% of those who are serious about DG. Sometimes the coolest features of a course are the hardest to build and prepare. When it is you alone in the woods with a chainsaw for months at a time with no one volunteering to help you, well...I guess this is for the designers that actually work on their own courses they've designed.

you cant necessarily say that its from a lack of volunteers. im a forum hound and theres been courses put in near me that were not mentioned anywhere or by anyone (outside of the designers clich - prolly wrong spelling) until they were finished. so there is no one to help, but thats the designers fault. this makes those really badass holes very difficult to complete.

[DavidSauls]

Yeah, I've caught myself wondering why a hole was designed poorly----only to later be made aware of restrictions placed by the park that the designer was making the best of.

My main experience is as a co-designer on a single private course that was built and tweaked a little bit at a time. I'm quite impressed that designers can look at a property for a day, or a couple of days, and come up with a layout at all.

It is a hard field to get into, too. If you have one experienced designer in the area, there's a tendancy for property owners to be pointed in his direction. But it's still WAY better than places where someone with little or no disc golf experience, let alone design experience, got the job.

[jsun3thousand]

you cant necessarily say that its from a lack of volunteers. im a forum hound and theres been courses put in near me that were not mentioned anywhere or by anyone (outside of the designers clich - prolly wrong spelling) until they were finished. so there is no one to help, but thats the designers fault. this makes those really badass holes very difficult to complete.

that's northern IL disc golf in a nutshell. there is enough talent, energy, and organization to design good courses but it's stupidly political, cliquish, and unnecessary in certain areas. The Lombard vs. IOS debacle is the perfect example. The people that got IOS kicked out of Lombard design boring courses and think they own them. Or a park district ignores free help from talented people and put in a crappy course. the antioch course is the perfect example of that.

[Dave242]

Oh no, I love Fox Chase, and Anderson and Lake's Edge are both really good but a few of his courses always seem to have a hole or two that make you scratch your head.

I'm not saying he's a bad designer by any means, it's just his style (short, L-shaped holes; fairways not thinned out enough) that's starting to get on my nerves.

Fox Chase is a top 5 course on my list......and Lake's Edge was a supreme disappointment.

Regarding work that needs to be done after a designer leaves......locals need to engage the park department and maybe the designer too and see what they can do to finish the course.

[Danger]

Around Los Angeles, most courses you see being installed have the names Dave Dunipace or Steve Wisecup attached to them. We have a couple of Steady Ed courses, too....I also think Steve Rico designed the current set up at Sylmar (the profile here does not list a designer).

So do we have a monopoly? Kind of, but I seem to really like the Dunipace and Wisecup designs so its ok!

[weeman]

The guy who has done a majority of the courses in this area has done so for a long while. Some are better than others but every few years there seems to be another one in the works. Guess he has a good working relationship with the parks department here. I'm on the fence on several of the courses, haven't played any of his that I thought were really championship caliber.

[superberry]

you cant necessarily say that its from a lack of volunteers. im a forum hound and theres been courses put in near me that were not mentioned anywhere or by anyone (outside of the designers clich - prolly wrong spelling) until they were finished. so there is no one to help, but thats the designers fault. this makes those really badass holes very difficult to complete.

I COMPLETELY agree. The same 'popular' designers with the parks departments around here, ALWAYS keep thing secretive, even if they aren't even from the area or familiar with the park. There are always locals who are very familiar with properties and willing to do the work. Even 1% actually equates to some number greater than 1 in most cases.

[BrotherDave]

Fox Chase is a top 5 course on my list......and Lake's Edge was a supreme disappointment.

Regarding work that needs to be done after a designer leaves......locals need to engage the park department and maybe the designer too and see what they can do to finish the course.

Lake's Edge is getting better, hole 14 I think it is (the impossible par 3 before you play alongside the lake) is still a black eye on the course but 18 and 4 are slowly turning into less dumb holes.

[Dave242]

That's great to hear! I'm not a crier, but I almost left that course crying since is such an amazing piece of land......and such a downer of a design (for many holes).

[Sadjo]

I have several course projects on the table in NE GA and Upstate SC. Each of my proposals includes cost for a course designer. In some cases, that could be me. In others my hope is we'll (me and the entity I'm working with) hire someone who is better than I am in course design.

My understanding is the course in Clemson at the University was designed and installed in one day. I don't know if it is true or not. It does seems as if a lot of potential was lost on that course.

[1978]

you cant necessarily say that its from a lack of volunteers. im a forum hound and theres been courses put in near me that were not mentioned anywhere or by anyone (outside of the designers clich - prolly wrong spelling) until they were finished. so there is no one to help, but thats the designers fault. this makes those really badass holes very difficult to complete.

Yea, I hear this a lot... well if you had just searched me out...work me up aat 6AM on a Tuesday to haul branches before work, bought me lunch, and then drove me back home and tucked me in, I would have totally stood and watched you drag for 6 hrs.

I know what you are saying...if you don't physically know, how can you help...but that is no excuse for those that DO know but dont help...but this is all for another thread, another day. So I guess to ammend my post:

#9 Designers don't ask for help when designing the course.

[Stan McDaniel]

4 of the new courses to open in Charlotte are being designed by people other than myself or Innova's designers.

[chris deitzel]

All Pittsburgh courses are not designed by J Gary.

Moraine was designed by myself, Tim Wright, Bryan Wright and others with design help from J Gary. I could tell you who built every hole and why they ended up the way they are.

Schenley Park was designed by Steve Kohman.

Linbrook is being designed by me and Lori and we have had J Gary out for some input.

[chris deitzel]

Oh yeah and Deer Lakes would have never happened if it weren't for Tom Moeller who was the initial designer.

But yes J Gary is the man for making things happen, but there are a lot of forgotten people who have made Pittsburgh disc golf what it is today. I have been lucky enough to have been in the disc golf scene in the Burgh for 15+ years now and have been a part of many great things. Can't wait to see where we go from here.

[1978]

4 of the new courses to open in Charlotte are being designed by people other than myself or Innova's designers.

BOOO! I'll have to take out all my pro wraiths and Rocs.

[gkeberhart]

I mean this in no way to offend any of the course designers out there, but anyone that thinks that there is a "monopoly" in their area. Instead of complaining about it, get involved with the designers in your area and start learning the basics and work towards your designer title. More designers will mean a greater variation in the course styles

[superberry]

I mean this in no way to offend any of the course designers out there, but anyone that thinks that there is a "monopoly" in their area. Instead of complaining about it, get involved with the designers in your area and start learning the basics and work towards your designer title. More designers will mean a greater variation in the course styles

How do you get this "designer" title? Is it based on quantity or quality? Is it based on a peer review of your final product? What exactly does it mean?

That's my problem. I know of some people who others would agree to as being called "course designers", but they turn out JUNK! I honestly admit that I do not know if their lackluster results are due to their poor design or possibly parks politics with equipment, avoiding areas, etc, etc. But just because these people are so called designers, the parks department goes to them out of ignorance of the sport and quality/unique design.

It JUST happened to me. I've been picthing and volunteering to build a course in the city where I work. I'm not a 'designer' but I've done 99% of what you'll see at Winter Park, and I consulted and changed a lot of the design for Tailings with a friend. I just heard recently someone from 3hrs away is now talking with the city about a chunk of land that I had proposed to work on!

BTW, The Tailings in Iron River, MI had a crew from MSU come up and create a paper design for a course there. Would you care to guess how well that design actually worked, or how much of it made it to the final layout we have now? [essentially ZERO holes!!!!!!!!! just small portions of 3 or 4 holes]
Would you care to guess how much they were paid for this 'design'? [$5000 due to an invest in America grant]

[gkeberhart]

i think that Chuck may have mentioned it earlier in the thread but here it is,

DGCD (http://www.discgolfcoursedesigners.org/discgolfwiki/index.php5?title=Main_Page)

[Guurn]

Being in Minnesota and having played for a long time I have seen the changes in design from individual designers over the years. In the last 5 years there have been trends that have bothered me from a few of our local designers. They seem to get something in their head, either a type of hole they are trying to perfect or a level of player they are designing for and their design suffers because of it. The courses end up with a lot of very similar holes. I think, I am guessing here, it is the drive locally for gold level courses. They are shooting for a certain par and, design be damned, they are going to make the length fit that, ignoring design quality.

[gkeberhart]

Being in Minnesota and having played for a long time I have seen the changes in design from individual designers over the years. In the last 5 years there have been trends that have bothered me from a few of our local designers. They seem to get something in their head, either a type of hole they are trying to perfect or a level of player they are designing for and their design suffers because of it. The courses end up with a lot of very similar holes. I think, I am guessing here, it is the drive locally for gold level courses. They are shooting for a certain par and, design be damned, they are going to make the length fit that, ignoring design quality.

i know exactly what you are talking about, they are in the process of getting ready for a new course at Lemon Lake and I couldnt have been more disappointed to hear some of the ideas for the holes. they were basically just carbon copies of holes from some of the other courses at the complex with minor tweaks usually to distance.

[superberry]

I have a differing opinion on Gold Level design. I'm not necessarily supportive of Gold Level par 4 design on the whole. One major reason is because Gold level players are not the norm, and I think these holes can still eat up a gold level player. Poor Gold level holes just add distance, which is lame. Rather, I think the better option is to install a longer gold tee, but make it a par 4 for a Blue level player. Somewhat longer holes that utilize precise landing zones at about 350-375', or offer shorter bailout zones, are much more interesting for the majority of players. If the same holes still offer another 200-300' to the green, and a risky or protected green on top of it all, they still make a very enjoyable par 3 hole for a Gold player. Scoring spread will still yield some 4's due to misplaced drives or not precisely executed upshots. The really high caibur players who can execute a great shot through a very specific 'airway' will earn a GREAT deuce and be very happy with their perfect play on the hole.

[smyith]

i think that Chuck may have mentioned it earlier in the thread but here it is,

DGCD (http://www.discgolfcoursedesigners.org/discgolfwiki/index.php5?title=Main_Page)

i dont like those cretria for designer titles. if i design 2 horrible little 18 holers i can call myself a designer after i leave course reviews. thats pretty weak.
i definitely need to start pitching courses to parks depts. i know its prolly in here, but i dont feel like searching. is there a really good guide to course proposals?

[gkeberhart]

i dont like those cretria for designer titles. if i design 2 horrible little 18 holers i can call myself a designer after i leave course reviews. thats pretty weak.
i definitely need to start pitching courses to parks depts. i know its prolly in here, but i dont feel like searching. is there a really good guide to course proposals?

I am pretty sure that it is the same design standards that are used by the PDGA

[HB553]

I think longivity in some areas has more to do with many of the names here (Stan in NC, J Gary in NC, Johnny in W.Va, and my 35 years of working with BG). Some very few of us (Dave Mc - MO, John Houck - TX, myself - KY & TN) do this as a full time profession, so that can add up to alot of coures as well, and mostly near home.

Baskets: Most of my courses are determined by the client preferance, some like that yellow rim, some like a number plate, some like least expensive bids, and some require long term garentees. I see myself as the consultant with pros and cons of each, unless of course a manufacture gives me the lead then I skip the other brochures.

Of the 50+ courses I have designed, very few would be considered championship level - mainly due to discussions with the client. Of course land restrictions will force some limits on level, as a community might rather have a nice 18 hole fun course rather than a championship level 9 in the space. Although I prefer championship level courses play and design, I have planty of expamples of true recreational courses in communities, and hopefully those communities will allow a bigger course in time as the sport is accepted.

Of course, the course designs of 25+ years ago were made for frisbees, so in BG if you play Kereiakes Park just think about playing that with a whamo 40 mold!

[smyith]

I am pretty sure that it is the same design standards that are used by the PDGA

still doesnt change the fact that its weak.

[gkeberhart]

Of course, the course designs of 25+ years ago were made for frisbees, so in BG if you play Kereiakes Park just think about playing that with a whamo 40 mold!
That is my favorite course in BG and it is still plenty tough with modern golf discs.

still doesnt change the fact that its weak.
Instead of complaining about it then, how about you try and work on getting stronger criteria implemented. Sitting around complaining about how weak it is won't get it changed

[Sadjo]

i definitely need to start pitching courses to parks depts. i know its prolly in here, but i dont feel like searching. is there a really good guide to course proposals?

I pitch courses all the time. If you want help with a proposal I can share several I've done. None of the several dozen I've proposed are the same. Each is tailored to the community or land owner. Some I've done just verbally and walked away with check in hand.

As I've mentioned before, I'd much rather sell the course and let someone else design but I've come back to see courses I have sold but not been involved with the design and seen some dangerous holes. Safety first.

[Danger]

It sounds like there is a ton of ego floating around through all of these course designers. Almost as if they have a secret and they don't want any help, or anybody to even know about it until it's done. That implies to me that they don't want any advice or suggestions on their design either, because they are the designer, the pro, the genius.

I have not heard of any of these courses that we are discussing on this thread, but I have heard of Flyboy Aviation, DGCR's current #1 course. From what I read about that one, is that the design was influenced by many many people, and therefore collective knowledge created the best course.

Some food for thought for the next guy who is 'secretly' going to design the next best course.

[smyith]

I pitch courses all the time. If you want help with a proposal I can share several I've done. None of the several dozen I've proposed are the same. Each is tailored to the community or land owner. Some I've done just verbally and walked away with check in hand.

As I've mentioned before, I'd much rather sell the course and let someone else design but I've come back to see courses I have sold but not been involved with the design and seen some dangerous holes. Safety first.

definitely any suggestions you have would be greatly appreciated. i gotta do some recon when the weather turns and find a sustible park to begin with.

i must say tho, it makes me happy to see so many designers in this thread discussion. i wish more designers would be involved more on these kinds of forums. makes me at least think that they care about the community.

[tallpaul]

There are a number of persons involved here. Many of them have their plates pretty full with life, and disc activities and so don't live on DGCR. But, in general, the disc world has taken note of this site and it's wide distribution; and many designers love the game just as much, if not more than players.

I was pleasantly surprised to see HB on here; as I did not know he was a member of the site.

[DSCJNKY]

8. This is a biggy!!! Work is done by less than 1% of those who are serious about DG. Sometimes the coolest features of a course are the hardest to build and prepare. When it is you alone in the woods with a chainsaw for months at a time with no one volunteering to help you, well...I guess this is for the designers that actually work on their own courses they've designed.

You can say that again...
I've been working for the least 4 months on getting a course installed here in Asheville. I post facebook messages on the clubs FB page, send out text messages and announce workdays at all weekly events... Do people show up to help? A few... but when considering the club as a whole... not really.

A big thank you to everyone who has helped within the last few months.
DSCJNKY

[DSCJNKY]

But it's still WAY better than places where someone with little or no disc golf experience, let alone design experience, got the job.

I was at a park master plan meeting yesterday lobbying for disc golf. When the meeting was over it was pretty clear that disc golf was going to be one of the new activities (Yeah!).

However, the guy from the park design firm that was handling the meeting was talking about being the designer. (Ha!). I asked him if he had ever designed a course before... or had even played golf before... and he said, "I know how to put lines on paper". (LOL!).

Don't worry, in the end, he won't be the designer.

DSCJNKY

[DSCJNKY]

Around Los Angeles, most courses you see being installed have the names Dave Dunipace or Steve Wisecup attached to them. We have a couple of Steady Ed courses, too....I also think Steve Rico designed the current set up at Sylmar (the profile here does not list a designer).

Steve and his brother Bamba and Gary Sandoval were the main designers on the new Sylmar layout (~6 years old now). Locals gave their input on the design, but they were the main designers for sure.
DSCJNKY

[jtencer]

You can say that again...
I've been working for the least 4 months on getting a course installed here in Asheville. I post facebook messages on the clubs FB page, send out text messages and announce workdays at all weekly events... Do people show up to help? A few... but when considering the club as a whole... not really.

A big thank you to everyone who has helped within the last few months.
DSCJNKY

I don't have any experience in this, but I have an idea.

Have you tried using other dg events to lure people to the park so that you can persuade/guilt them into helping in person? Something like moving the weekly doubles up by an hour and then asking people individually to stick around for a little while after to get some work done or doing a 2 round tournament to raise money for course maintenance but you can get a discount on the entry fee if you put in a couple hours of good work in between rounds.

I don't know how much it would help, but I know that personally I'm way more motivated to work on a course when I'm out there already.

[smyith]

I don't have any experience in this, but I have an idea.

Have you tried using other dg events to lure people to the park so that you can persuade/guilt them into helping in person? Something like moving the weekly doubles up by an hour and then asking people individually to stick around for a little while after to get some work done or doing a 2 round tournament to raise money for course maintenance but you can get a discount on the entry fee if you put in a couple hours of good work in between rounds.

I don't know how much it would help, but I know that personally I'm way more motivated to work on a course when I'm out there already.

how are you supposed to play a course if its not installed?

[optidiscic]

I don't have any experience in this, but I have an idea.

Have you tried using other dg events to lure people to the park so that you can persuade/guilt them into helping in person? Something like moving the weekly doubles up by an hour and then asking people individually to stick around for a little while after to get some work done or doing a 2 round tournament to raise money for course maintenance but you can get a discount on the entry fee if you put in a couple hours of good work in between rounds.

I don't know how much it would help, but I know that personally I'm way more motivated to work on a course when I'm out there already.

it has been my experience that such strategies bring out the sprinter and vastly underused flight instincts in disc golfers....that or a long game of hide and seek. Asking for help disperses a crowd faster than a open sored leper at an orgy.
Those that want to help will seek you out and you work with those who are acyually interested...no matter how small a group.

[jtencer]

how are you supposed to play a course if its not installed?

temp baskets.

It wouldn't work if you had absolutely nothing started, but if you needed help pouring teepads or installing baskets or clearing extra brush it seemed like it might be a decent idea.

[1978]

I don't have any experience in this, but I have an idea.

Have you tried using other dg events to lure people to the park so that you can persuade/guilt them into helping in person? Something like moving the weekly doubles up by an hour and then asking people individually to stick around for a little while after to get some work done or doing a 2 round tournament to raise money for course maintenance but you can get a discount on the entry fee if you put in a couple hours of good work in between rounds.

I don't know how much it would help, but I know that personally I'm way more motivated to work on a course when I'm out there already.

What an annoying post. "I'm way more motivated to work on a course when I'm out there already" No! 90% of the time when I work on a course, I DONT even play that day. Leave your discs at home and do some work. Stop having to be motivated like a kid who gets a sucker for keeping his mouth closed.

[1978]

it has been my experience that such strategies bring out the sprinter and vastly underused flight instincts in disc golfers....that or a long game of hide and seek. Asking for help disperses a crowd faster than a open sored leper at an orgy.
Those that want to help will seek you out and you work with those who are acyually interested...no matter how small a group.

a Nickle for every time I heard... man, I've been meaning to find the time to help... you do such a great job, thanks, I'll get out soon when life isnt so crazy.

YOU ARE OUT THERE NOW PLAYING! ... YOUR THIRD ROUND THAT DAY.

[allinpflop]

Oh yeah and Deer Lakes would have never happened if it weren't for Tom Moeller who was the initial designer.

But yes J Gary is the man for making things happen, but there are a lot of forgotten people who have made Pittsburgh disc golf what it is today. I have been lucky enough to have been in the disc golf scene in the Burgh for 15+ years now and have been a part of many great things. Can't wait to see where we go from here.

Hopefully we can add many more courses and tournaments. I would like to see a course south of Pittsburgh, that would be real nice:)

If you think about how few people play/help out its impressive what Pitt has done so far.

[Peterb]

it has been my experience that such strategies bring out the sprinter and vastly underused flight instincts in disc golfers....that or a long game of hide and seek. Asking for help disperses a crowd faster than a open sored leper at an orgy.
Those that want to help will seek you out and you work with those who are acyually interested...no matter how small a group.

Facts.

Additionally, I have found that it is far easier to get help when building a course rather than maintaining one. People like the idea of being part of the building a new course that they'll soon get to play. Keeping one up, which is a constant and regular part of our experience, is much more of a dreary thought to disc golfers who don't want to be a part of the core community or lift a finger to help.

[Sadjo]

No matter how many people want to help you always have to have someone that is the lead and will be the final say on hole design.

One of the courses I over saw the design and was the final say on the design recently under went changes due to the owner of the property needing to move baskets out of the view from the main event area (dang brides didn't want Disc Golf baskets in their wedding photos).

This prompted several players to share ideas. Some players were even wanting to make changes to other holes on the course. Some were good ideas. I said "Great...we're meeting at the course Saturday at Noon." I was quickly told that they wouldn't be able to make it. I said I guess that change won't happen then.

I'm all for ideas but if you're not going to work and get dirty moving baskets, clearing underbrush and helping in other ways, then you're input just isn't needed.

[bikinjack]

I'll chime in on the whole recruiting volunteers thing.

When I volunteer, I do so because I want to see something happen. I encourage others to join me, and sometimes I volunteer because someone else has encouraged me to do so, but always I do whatever I do because it's something I would like to see happen. The only time I ever get upset with folks who don't volunteer is when they complain. I get a real sense of enjoyment out of doing something that lots of people get to enjoy. It makes me feel good. If they complain about something I've done, I'm all ears for legitimate issues, but I always encourage folks to step up and join in, and kind of imply that they shut up until they step up, while letting them know that what they have issues with is noted.

[smyith]

No matter how many people want to help you always have to have someone that is the lead and will be the final say on hole design.

One of the courses I over saw the design and was the final say on the design recently under went changes due to the owner of the property needing to move baskets out of the view from the main event area (dang brides didn't want Disc Golf baskets in their wedding photos).

This prompted several players to share ideas. Some players were even wanting to make changes to other holes on the course. Some were good ideas. I said "Great...we're meeting at the course Saturday at Noon." I was quickly told that they wouldn't be able to make it. I said I guess that change won't happen then.

I'm all for ideas but if you're not going to work and get dirty moving baskets, clearing underbrush and helping in other ways, then you're input just isn't needed.

The few times ive been able to help with building courses ive found that volunteers input is generally appreciated and discussed. If we're clearing a wood hole, i or whoever may notice something really cool and mention it to the designer. they may or may not go with it but they generally seem to at least consider it.
volunteering and building courses also helps you gain insight into hole dynamics and ways to attack it.

[jtencer]

What an annoying post. "I'm way more motivated to work on a course when I'm out there already" No! 90% of the time when I work on a course, I DONT even play that day. Leave your discs at home and do some work. Stop having to be motivated like a kid who gets a sucker for keeping his mouth closed.

Seriously? I'm trying to brainstorm ways to help get more people involved and you're just acting like a prick. I think I've figured out why attendance is low at your work days.

Some people actually drive appreciable distances to courses and would rather spend an entire day there than make multiple trips. Are people that like to squeeze a round in around working on a course so much beneath you that you just don't want their help?

[DSCJNKY]

Additionally, I have found that it is far easier to get help when building a course rather than maintaining one. People like the idea of being part of the building a new course that they'll soon get to play. Keeping one up, which is a constant and regular part of our experience, is much more of a dreary thought to disc golfers who don't want to be a part of the core community or lift a finger to help.

Here in Asheville, the opposite is true.
We can get 20 people to come out and help do maintenance on Richmond Hill, everyone's main home course in the area. However, getting them to come out and build a new course is a different story... 5-7 people max. I think I had 8 once.

The players do like to have a doubles round after their done working at RH... so maybe it is a good idea to include play at the end of workdays. However, I have also found that people will quit working early so they can hurry up and play... so than again, maybe not.

DSCJNKY

[dobbins66]

Yeah all of the courses around here are designed by Johnny Sias. That man likes tight fairways. Love the courses though.

I'll second this - Love the work he has put into the courses in the Huntington/Ashland area and want to make it to Moundsville and try the Black Course.

[1978]

Seriously? I'm trying to brainstorm ways to help get more people involved and you're just acting like a prick. I think I've figured out why attendance is low at your work days.

Some people actually drive appreciable distances to courses and would rather spend an entire day there than make multiple trips. Are people that like to squeeze a round in around working on a course so much beneath you that you just don't want their help?

My work days are well attended. Thats not the point. The point is that you shouldnt have to be "motivated" to help the sport you love. You shouldnt need a work day to drag tree limbs off after a storm, spray a hornets nest, refresh a needed OB, re-nail boards on a bridge, order new numbers for baskets, bring your weedeater out, carry a pair of loppers with you to trim new growth, pick up trash, build erosion control when you see the need, remove ace tags from baskets, repair benches, build and place benches, empty trashcans, etc. I could go on forever. These are all things that could be done and would take 5 minutes of prep, 10 minutes of work, but if everyone did them, there would be no need for work days and your course would be pristine. Instead, people wait to be begged to help; they are scared of hard work. 1000 people playing a course in a week can do some major upkeep damage. A 20 person work day crew does a lot too, but it isnt the same.

[1978]

Charlotte has some of the most dedicated workers in disc golf. We'll pull 40 people for a teepad pouring no problem... We just need to be better at the day to day stuff that gets noticed...but not fixed, just noticed.

Sorry for the thread jack.

[smyith]

around here alot of our league members pick up the trash and clean out dead branches as we play. it doesnt keep the course perfect but it greatly helps the look of the course and park dept management has taken note and doesnt ever hassle us.

[Dave242]

You shouldnt need a work day to drag tree limbs off after a storm, spray a hornets nest, refresh a needed OB, re-nail boards on a bridge, order new numbers for baskets, bring your weedeater out, carry a pair of loppers with you to trim new growth, pick up trash, build erosion control when you see the need, remove ace tags from baskets, repair benches, build and place benches, empty trashcans, etc. I could go on forever. These are all things that could be done and would take 5 minutes of prep, 10 minutes of work, but if everyone did them, there would be no need for work days and your course would be pristine.

This is simply not true for the most part. The issue the vast majority of players face for all the items in bold is that they do not feel entitled to do that. All of those things are park property/resources and people feel like they can/will get in trouble if they mess with them - by the park AND by the club if they do things even a little bit wrong. Most people have the sense to know that if the Parks got upset with random DGer's just doing whatever they pleased, courses would get pulled.

So you ask, "why not just call the course director or one of the club leaders?" Well, the problem is that when people ask how they can help, very very often their phone calls and emails go unreturned.

Before calling BS on this statement, keep in mind that I was on the BoD for several years, I heard this complaint often and I even had this problem myself. Now, you personally might be different, but I know from talking to JJ who took over after me on the BoD that he had the same problem I had but worse. I have no reason to assume that this same thing does not happen in many places.

I have no issue with people being busy - both the course builders & directors/pro's and the players/club members. I do have a problem with the complaining that so often goes on from people who are largely to blame for the problems.

[smyith]

Dave242's post brings something to mind. one of the best and worst groups for disc golf is the chuckers. they lose and buy the most plastic and for every 1 'serious' player there are 3 of them. and they like the 'pretty' discs, $$$.
however, they also destroy courses. they are your litterers and the ones who tear the trees and branches off of trees. my home course has a severe problem with the chuckers. id say 1 of every 2 rounds im yelling at someone to pick the trash or dogs crap up. Telling them not to rip that branch off the tree. theres been a few times were the chuckers were so awful that we straight up ran them off the course.
the parks dept doesnt see much if any of that $$$. so all they see is the destruction and hardly see the very small population that tries to stop it and educate people. some chuckers are convert-able. so i can see why they would restrict courses and designers so much. and why for some areas it is VERY difficult to get quality courses. i think alot of people forget that even a disc golf course has all sorts of politics :wall: involved with it :wall:. image is important to the people with $$$

[chris deitzel]

I was just thinking, and I think the only reason there are monopolies is because those people are the only people who do the course scouting, submit proposals, do the work, and actually make it happen. Most other people just sit around and wait for courses to be made. So if you are sick of monopolies, do something about it. Get involved with your local club, help when courses are being built, and do something about it. It is a lot of work building courses.

Moraine State PArk took 3+ years to complete. The course I am working on now will be 2+ years and that is with me going out every day to do work. These things just don't happen, and the reason you have people building more and more courses is because they want to make your community better. They want more people to play and because they love the game.

All I can say is lend a hand to these guys and you will learn a lot. And you might even be lucky enough to learn how the process actually works.

[Sadjo]

I was just thinking, and I think the only reason there are monopolies is because those people are the only people who do the course scouting, submit proposals, do the work, and actually make it happen. Most other people just sit around and wait for courses to be made. So if you are sick of monopolies, do something about it. Get involved with your local club, help when courses are being built, and do something about it. It is a lot of work building courses.

Moraine State PArk took 3+ years to complete. The course I am working on now will be 2+ years and that is with me going out every day to do work. These things just don't happen, and the reason you have people building more and more courses is because they want to make your community better. They want more people to play and because they love the game.

All I can say is lend a hand to these guys and you will learn a lot. And you might even be lucky enough to learn how the process actually works.

Funny you say something. I have proposed about a half dozen courses this year already and have two plans I feel really good about being approved. All the proposals include design fees. Several of my disc golf friends have all volunteered their services...wanting to get paid to design...but haven't been willing to appear with me before boards or councils.

Some of the projects, if approved, will be more involved and have higher fees attached to them while others won't be as involved and the fees are lower. The fees are based on the amount of time it will take to design the course.

[Matthew boals]

Chris Deitzel,you are correct! I just can't handle the YEARS it takes dealing with the local/state government(s).

[Peterb]

Stan McDaniel, who's clearly one of the 'monopolizers', has made an excellent point about all of this. It has taken him years to develop the relationships within parks departments which has led to so many NC courses. Do not underestimate the value of these relationships as they are crucial to making headway when it comes to getting new courses. Naturally, parks departments feel comfortable with the people they know and trust those to do a good job. So Johnny come lately without a track record is simply going to take longer to get anything done. I should know since I'm currently in that boat (waiting for proposals to go through, etc).

[Sadjo]

Stan McDaniel, who's clearly one of the 'monopolizers', has made an excellent point about all of this. It has taken him years to develop the relationships within parks departments which has led to so many NC courses. Do not underestimate the value of these relationships as they are crucial to making headway when it comes to getting new courses. Naturally, parks departments feel comfortable with the people they know and trust those to do a good job. So Johnny come lately without a track record is simply going to take longer to get anything done. I should know since I'm currently in that boat (waiting for proposals to go through, etc).

Very true. I've only had one project get a green light quickly...and that went from a verbal pitch to a course in the ground in two months. Everything else has taken at least a year to happen.

I met this morning with the city manager of a community I pitched a course to in January. They're hopeful to get a grant to pay for a course. She told me if they don't get the grant, they will buy just the baskets but if the full grant comes through, they will fund the Aggressive Course Proposal which includes signs, flypads, course maps and course scorecards and a design fee.

Even if the grant comes through today, it will still be several months before we dig the first hole.

[chris deitzel]

And in the end, I think you will find that course designers do want you input. And we are very open to criticisms and making the course better. And it is the people who come out and help with work days, etc, etc whose opinions are really valued. Get involved, see how the entire design process happens, and dedicate some time to making the best course possible. It is so rewarding in the end to see people writing good reviews about your course on here, and watching the locals have a blast playing the course that you dedicated so much time in making a reality.

[Cgkdisc]

Separate from accepting input BEFORE a design is completed is the issue of designers not making the effort to correct mistakes or tweak certain holes AFTER a design is in the ground. Not many designers are able to take the time to observe players and fewer still use the hole scores of rated players to see if their hole designs actually worked as intended.

[chris deitzel]

Right on Chuck. That is a key factor in designing a good course. Put the baskets in, and then start playing with players of the correct skill levels playing the tees designed for them. Then seeing where people land, how the hole plays and the scoring spread. Absolutely key in making a good finished project. Can't wait for you to see what we have been building lately.

[Sadjo]

Too many times I hear players and clubs saying and thinking that making any changes or redesigns as an insult. I think it's good to look at a course and make changes if they are need and if it would help a course.

[Stan McDaniel]

This is simply not true for the most part. The issue the vast majority of players face for all the items in bold is that they do not feel entitled to do that. All of those things are park property/resources and people feel like they can/will get in trouble if they mess with them - by the park AND by the club if they do things even a little bit wrong. Most people have the sense to know that if the Parks got upset with random DGer's just doing whatever they pleased, courses would get pulled.

So you ask, "why not just call the course director or one of the club leaders?" Well, the problem is that when people ask how they can help, very very often their phone calls and emails go unreturned.

Before calling BS on this statement, keep in mind that I was on the BoD for several years, I heard this complaint often and I even had this problem myself. Now, you personally might be different, but I know from talking to JJ who took over after me on the BoD that he had the same problem I had but worse. I have no reason to assume that this same thing does not happen in many places.

I have no issue with people being busy - both the course builders & directors/pro's and the players/club members. I do have a problem with the complaining that so often goes on from people who are largely to blame for the problems.

You and JJ both held the role of club information officer. If people complained to you guys then either of you could have given them the information that you say they did not recieve. Are you sure that myself or other club leaders did not contact these people? Sounds to me that you are implying, from your experience that it is the club leaders who were to blame for the problems. I know that I have a different opinion than you. The majority of people who have mentioned to me that they were willing to help did so as they were playing a course that I was working on. This is still true today. My mind is not so great that I will remember who said something to me while I was grinding on a chainsaw or dragging branches in the summer heat. No system is perfect but I do call B.S.

[Dave242]

Fair enough......I guess I have an honesty issue (http://charlottedgc.invisionzone.com/index.php?/topic/133-renaissance/page__st__484) then. No emails or posts or calls on that one or on this one (http://charlottedgc.invisionzone.com/index.php?/topic/133-renaissance/page__st__460) either (from 5 months earlier).

Listen, I am not trying to throw anyone under the bus.....I was just giving 1978 a little personal perspective rather than just speaking in vague generalities.

If you re-read the last paragraph of what you quoted, you will see I tried to say that it is often both the leaders AND the club members. My point is that complaining when one is part of the problem rather than part of the solution is not as constructive as it could be.....it was supposed to be general statement.

[harr0140]

I'll chime in on the whole recruiting volunteers thing.

When I volunteer, I do so because I want to see something happen. I encourage others to join me, and sometimes I volunteer because someone else has encouraged me to do so, but always I do whatever I do because it's something I would like to see happen. The only time I ever get upset with folks who don't volunteer is when they complain. I get a real sense of enjoyment out of doing something that lots of people get to enjoy. It makes me feel good. If they complain about something I've done, I'm all ears for legitimate issues, but I always encourage folks to step up and join in, and kind of imply that they shut up until they step up, while letting them know that what they have issues with is noted.

As one of my friends would say . . . word to the big bird . . . I wont complain about people not working because they might hae reasons, but if they then complain . . . it falls on deaf ears. I know who would help me with something and I know who wouldnt and those that will help are the ones I will listen to . . .

[harr0140]

My work days are well attended. Thats not the point. The point is that you shouldnt have to be "motivated" to help the sport you love. You shouldnt need a work day to drag tree limbs off after a storm, spray a hornets nest, refresh a needed OB, re-nail boards on a bridge, order new numbers for baskets, bring your weedeater out, carry a pair of loppers with you to trim new growth, pick up trash, build erosion control when you see the need, remove ace tags from baskets, repair benches, build and place benches, empty trashcans, etc. I could go on forever. These are all things that could be done and would take 5 minutes of prep, 10 minutes of work, but if everyone did them, there would be no need for work days and your course would be pristine. Instead, people wait to be begged to help; they are scared of hard work. 1000 people playing a course in a week can do some major upkeep damage. A 20 person work day crew does a lot too, but it isnt the same.

I agree to a point, but there are also things that should be done by parks staff . . . we olunteer so often, I wouldnt expect the parks guys think they should eer do anything on the course!

[Royal Hill]

I know work parties are getting away from the core of the thread intent, but lets consider this potential... Perhaps a course designer, or club course maintainer, is hesitant to call too many work parties, since it will be attended by "that guy".. The guy that clearly has ulterior motives, will be difficult to monitor, or maybe will have difficulties with comprehension of the concept that the clubs goals are not to make his game easier. "That guy" will likely be accompanied by "the other guy" as well, and the two will make a big mess of a good idea. Just a thought that might play in even the best of intentioned maintainers mindset.

[1978]

Fair enough......I guess I have an honesty issue (http://charlottedgc.invisionzone.com/index.php?/topic/133-renaissance/page__st__484) then. No emails or posts or calls on that one or on this one (http://charlottedgc.invisionzone.com/index.php?/topic/133-renaissance/page__st__460) either (from 5 months earlier).

Listen, I am not trying to throw anyone under the bus.....I was just giving 1978 a little personal perspective rather than just speaking in vague generalities.

If you re-read the last paragraph of what you quoted, you will see I tried to say that it is often both the leaders AND the club members. My point is that complaining when one is part of the problem rather than part of the solution is not as constructive as it could be.....it was supposed to be general statement.

Ha! I don't see how it illustrates your point...infact those 2 posts are exactly what we are talking about. If you had updated the map...(You did a great job with this and flyby videos in the past, btw), and submitted it to the club, we would put it up.

Your point was that people offer to help and get turned away. Then you show an example of exactly what is frustrating...people saying something is wrong but then doing nothing to fix it. Just think...in 2009 if you had offered to re-do the map and sent it in, how many people would have had better directions, instead of waiting 2 years to use it as an example of how people complain but then don't work.

We have had 15 people offer to map courses, create maps/score cards, google earth walk throughs, course mappings, tee sign layouts.... none! has spent more than the effort to "offer" to volunteer and we are too busy cleaning up after wind storms, to actually sit at their computer with them and make sure it gets done.

If you want to help and you truly care, you will "do" something about it. That is the bottom line. Most people just like to feel good that they offered and actually attending or working means nothing to them.


To bring it back around... many course designers understand this too...they will be doing the work as well. It is hard to reach out to the public to "assist" in your design...when you know that the responsibility of the creation will literally be on your shoulders; "to a drag pile."

[jtencer]

If your whole plan of how to get more people to volunteer is to grumble about free loaders and to say that people shouldn't NEED to have the opportunities presented to them for them to work, you're never going to get any more people. Believe it or not, most of those people that offer to help and then never do actually meant it when they offered. The fact that you never followed up with them made them feel unwanted/unappreciated and so they didn't follow through.

Sure, some people are lazy and will never lift a finger no matter how many times you ask, but to say that everyone that isn't already actively involved in course maintenance is like that is beyond ridiculous.

[grodney]

Ha! I don't see how it illustrates your point...infact those 2 posts are exactly what we are talking about. If you had updated the map, and submitted it to the club, we would put it up.

Mark, I think you might have mis-read Dave's post.

He wrote on the CDGC board:
"I am glad to help. If someone gives me the distances and describes the exact details of the changes (as well as any other inaccuracies on the current map), I am glad to update the maps and scorecard. I have the originals and can update them and send to whoever is the new webmaster so they can upload them so what we have online matches reality."

Dave is in Illinois. He can't update the map/scorecard without someone giving him the info. He generously offered to help, and nobody responded. Not that nobody did it -- nobody even responded.

I think that's what he was saying.

Other than that, carry on guys!

[1978]

I hear ya. Everytime someone offers to help I give out a disc golf business card with all my contact info and take their information if I am able. They are included in an email that I send out when ever I need to organize a work day. All Charlotte DGC members are included in weekly emails detailing what is going on that week.

Who carries DG business cards around!!

People that do the work underestimate the desire of others to help...people that don't, overestimate their desire to help. If you have to make an excuse that you weren't welcomed enough, your heart wasn't in it in the first place. I would love to have the time or resources to call all of my 500 disc golf contacts every time I woke up at 4am to mow from 5-6:30 before work, but then again, how many people would join me? Why help when its going to get mowed either way...cause I WILL get it done.

Yes in a perfect world...being super nice, welcoming, inviting and proactive.... offering rewards to those who helped...etc would be wonderful and the best plan. But in the real world we just have to do what we hope others will do...get out and work or we run out of time. WE could appoint a volunteer coordinator to just get people to work days....but then how many would offer to volunteer for that... but feel slighted because they werent given enough attention.

I have been afforded no special rights to volunteer for Disc Golf, no one begged or asked me to, no one responded to my emails or posts. The reward for the 5000 physical hours on the course and countless others on the computer is people enjoying the course and feeling justified when I want to complain.

I just do it because I enjoy giving back. If someone needs special treatment to be motivated, perhaps volunteering isn't for them, thats why it is called "volunteer." And to the many volunteers out there that don't need to be coddled, Thanks!

[1978]

Mark, I think you might have mis-read Dave's post.

He wrote on the CDGC board:
"I am glad to help. If someone gives me the distances and describes the exact details of the changes (as well as any other inaccuracies on the current map), I am glad to update the maps and scorecard. I have the originals and can update them and send to whoever is the new webmaster so they can upload them so what we have online matches reality."

Dave is in Illinois. He can't update the map/scorecard without someone giving him the info. He generously offered to help, and nobody responded. Not that nobody did it -- nobody even responded.

I think that's what he was saying.

Other than that, carry on guys!

I will take care of this by Tuesday next week.

[Dave242]

Mark, I think you might have mis-read Dave's post.

He wrote on the CDGC board:
"I am glad to help. If someone gives me the distances and describes the exact details of the changes (as well as any other inaccuracies on the current map), I am glad to update the maps and scorecard. I have the originals and can update them and send to whoever is the new webmaster so they can upload them so what we have online matches reality."

Dave is in Illinois. He can't update the map/scorecard without someone giving him the info. He generously offered to help, and nobody responded. Not that nobody did it -- nobody even responded.

I think that's what he was saying.

Other than that, carry on guys!

This ^^^^

Like I said in response to Stan, I really did/do not want to make this personal other than to relate legitimate first hand experience that lack of communication from those in the know happens too.....and some people find that frustrating. The flipside scenario happens at least an order of magnitude more often, but that does not negate what I am pointing out.

I did this as a reminder/food for thought since there are lots of hard working course guys on this thread.

But on re-reading my request, I see now why everyone ignored it like leprosy - I should have said "whomever" rather than "whoever". :D

[bwiese]

:popcorn:

[smyith]

:popcorn:

i wish i could slap everyone who makes this stupid post

[tallpaul]

This gets beat around every once in a while. It's always been true that a very small group does 80% of all course work. For those not in this group; join up, it is needed to keep courses functioning. I have to work two jobs tomorrow (Saturday), and am trying to find time to get a couple of hours in at the course for work.

Edit: And I've never had the opportunity to design a course; other than a couple of temp tournies, and ideas being listened to from our main designer; concerning existing redesigns. I am simply a piece of the main work crew.

[smyith]

what would be nice and cut down on alot of the course maintenance is if everyone while playing just picked up trash when they see it, moved dead and fallen branches off the course (preferable somewhere easy for the park dept to get them). just all the little things really.
im glad for the designers out there but i would like to see designers (who arent from the area they are working in) get the local club more involved on the design side not just the work. i guarantee, people who are allowed to be involved on the design process will be much more willing to help with the install. and before one of you say it, i find it REALLY hard to believe that a local club wouldnt want to help with getting a new course installed. if they are douchers about it then they dont deserve the course so who cares what they think.

[tallpaul]

There ends up needing to be one person to make final design decisions. Input should, and usually, at least somewhat is, taken into consideration; but, design ends up being a one person show for the most part. There is also the liaison effort that is needed with parks and rec most of the time, and this is a one man position as well.

This is really the part where if someone wants to design a course; they need to make the contacts from the person(s) who can give the go ahead.

In Charlotte, Stan has somewhat turned over designing/course construction to others for many of their newest designs. So, he is spreading the love/work there. Each of the new design gentlemen will vouch for the work needed, to make a course happen. Everyone should pop into the Charlotte site and note the work done for all their newest installations; and actually consider whether one has the time/desire available.

Course maintenance alone eats up a Saturday a month for those even vaguely committed. Trash is the least of the worries, most of the time. Though, in the old days, at one of our courses, that required the club to empty it, it was a dirty job once a month; for years.

[gcr_russell]

I'm in the Process of designing and working on approval for a 2nd local course. The land has already been zoned and approved for Disc Golf. All that's left is getting the design approved (it's 100% unused property) and then to work on funding. Funding will likely be a huge hurdle but I have a well planned pitch to the city, as well as several potential decent sized sponsors lined up.

All but our existing course in the county are designed by the same guy. The biggest reason is because he's the one willing to do all the legwork. Physical labor, scouting property, making Pitches to the cities, and securing funding. He gets help, but is the type who has put more time in Disc Golf working towards these courses than playing. My area is a little over an hot away, and while I'm asking for his feedback, ultimately I'm the one making the decisions.

Regarding what Chuck said earlier about paying attention to scoring spreads; we've played several rounds with portable baskets and I've been sure to keep hole by hole scores for each player. Looking through the numbers is making me re-evaluate the layout of some of the course, but hopefully in a positive way.

[DSmith]

One of the things I've run into is the problem of having too many courses in the area and Parks and Rec giving us the ol' "Why do you need more courses?" We have to walk the line between City counsel members wanting neighborhood 9 holers and the club wanting another 18 holer to relieve pressure off of our already crowded courses.

Too many courses = less chance of getting new ones in the future.

Also as far as the monopoly question. I don't think it's so much a monopoly issue here as a regional thing in Kentucky. HB primarily in the west and Greenwell in the Louisville area and recently Sias @ the Ashland area ( I guess you can include me in the Lexington/Nichloasville area although with only 5 years of experience and I'm still green).
In recent years several new designers have popped up to take advantage of the empty central and eastern part of the state. It's sort of the neutral area for course designers. The only person that I've actually seen take advantage of that area has been HB.

[Cgkdisc]

You need to consider proposing pay-for-play courses to provide more incentive for Parks Depts to consider adding a course or another course.

[smyith]

or what about purposing updates to existing courses? make what ou got better if they wont let u make a new one.

i would def go pay-to-play. when/if i get into course purposals, i will only be pitching pay-to-plays. 2 reasons, 1) i think park depts will be more favorable towards the course and community if their getting something in return (its sad to say that but its the truth...their government they want their pockets greased as much as possible). 2) pay-to-plays seem to keep the majority of the chuckers away. especially if their staffed ptps. thats a big bonus for playing and for the communities image.

[Sadjo]

One of the things I've run into is the problem of having too many courses in the area and Parks and Rec giving us the ol' "Why do you need more courses?" We have to walk the line between City counsel members wanting neighborhood 9 holers and the club wanting another 18 holer to relieve pressure off of our already crowded courses.

Too many courses = less chance of getting new ones in the future.



Where I live in Oconee County, SC seems to be a bit different. As more courses were added, more seem to want one in their area of the county. We added 4 courses in two years, which is a lot for a county of 70,000) and have one in the design process with baskets sitting in a storage building and another that is currently in the fund raising stage.

I've been trying to use this momentum to get other parts of the county to look at courses...and working on the state parks in the area.

[bwiese]

i wish i could slap everyone who makes this stupid post

sorry, I should have typed out "this is entertaining"

[smyith]

Where I live in Oconee County, SC seems to be a bit different. As more courses were added, more seem to want one in their area of the county. We added 4 courses in two years, which is a lot for a county of 70,000) and have one in the design process with baskets sitting in a storage building and another that is currently in the fund raising stage.

I've been trying to use this momentum to get other parts of the county to look at courses...and working on the state parks in the area.

I think alot of that depends on the people in a given area, their attitude and motivations differ from everyone everywhere else. some areas may have that competitive nature between towns like yours, and others may have more fiscal minded towns that dont see a profit sign when disc golf is mentioned. those are the ones that dont want to give more than whats 'needed to make them happy.' these are the ones were you need to start pitching pay to plays. let them get some money back.


sorry, I should have typed out "this is entertaining"

followed by a backhand. you seriously cant add anything to the conversation? nothing besides :popcorn: or this is entertaining? its a worthless, meaningless post...why?

[Sadjo]

I think alot of that depends on the people in a given area, their attitude and motivations differ from everyone everywhere else. some areas may have that competitive nature between towns like yours, and others may have more fiscal minded towns that dont see a profit sign when disc golf is mentioned. those are the ones that dont want to give more than whats 'needed to make them happy.' these are the ones were you need to start pitching pay to plays. let them get some money back.


Our area is very interesting. The first course was installed in 2004. The then park director for that city did a lot for the sport. Then he left and went somewhere else. The city council have been great with funding tournaments I run and with given us grants to buy an additional 18 baskets...to the tune of about $10,000 over the past four years. While the city council members seem to love Disc Golf and park and rec department has been hard to work with and they are part of the reason 12 of our new 18 baskets are still in storage.

The course at Clemson University is maintained by the University but they will not allow anything other than natural tees and won't allow any tournaments to be held at the course.

Another course, the one in Walhalla (google Walhalla Disc Golf Chainsaw) is maintained by the part and rec and they don't want help from the Disc Golf community with maintenance. They want us to come and enjoy the course and not feel we need to make a list or do any work. They even come out during tournaments and volunteer.

Another is a pay to play and more of a destination course and yet another is on a private school campus and not well maintained.

So all are very different. We've used the competitive nature of some of the communities to further the sport along. We've got two more in the works right now.