Walks in-between

[LetsPlayGolf]

The last few polls have been very educational. It made me think of this one:

On a Championship type course, how far is TOO far in between basket and the next tee?

[prerube]

The 1/2 mile walk at giles run is too far :)

[LetsPlayGolf]

The last few polls have been very educational. It made me think of this one:

On a Championship type course, how far is TOO far in between basket and the next tee?

Not a walk between every hole, just a few to maximize the terrain of the course.

[bradharris]

I don't mind long walks between holes. I prefer to have well designed holes that make best use of terrain. I'd rather walk a quarter mile to a nice hole rather than play a forced hole that's only there to fill the gap.

[DavidSauls]

What about those who accept a walk of more than 300'? No option in the poll?

Anyway, there are too many variables to consider. A level or downhill walk? Does a particularly scenic (enjoyable) walk make any difference? Does it matter if all the other transitions were short, and this is the only long walk involved? And would you forgive the 400' walk on a truly epic course?

[magictenor1]

More than 300 feet would be okay if needed for a great course and sometimes unavoidable.

[garublador]

I've seen Ewing show up on some pro's favorite course lists and has way more than a 300' walk between 17 and 18. I always wondered why they didn't fit another hole in there just for fun.

[Cgkdisc]

It's a nature area with restrictions on where they wanted the course from what I understand.

[Dave242]

I voted 250-300'. While there are plenty of conceivable reasons why I am more than happy to walk a lot longer than that, I imagined the OP was somehow getting at an ideal situation on an ideal course.......a course that would make you feel a little pampered by the layout (rather than a feeling of the course being shoehorned into some non-ideal tract of land). Here are some examples of what I mean at "bigger" courses:

Ideal:
Idlewild
De Laveaga
Hornet's Nest back 9
Maple Hill
Winter Park
IDGC courses
Nevin
Brown Deer
Fox Chase
Leviathan
Patapsco
Lemon Lake Silver/Gold

Shoehorned:
Winthrop Gold
Renny
Hornet's Nest front 9
Dretzka (shoehorned, but no really long walks)
Lemon Lake Blue
Cliff Stephens

Having much more than 1-2 transitions longer than a typical fairway takes away from the "pampered" feel

[bikinjack]

I would think that number would be somewhere well over 300' for me, as for what's just too long of a walk between holes. One of my favorite courses, WR Jackson at the IDGC, has one walk between holes that's way more than 300', but I don't mind it at all. The quality of the holes more than makes up for it.

@ Dave242, I like the point you're making. It seems like your "ideal" list the course started with a blank slate, and really nothing or not much to fit the holes around or through, whereas your "shoehorned" list is more about finding ways to fit holes between ball fields, roads, tennis courts, BMX tracks, etc. and making it all work and flow together.

@ OP, I like the way you think. How about "how close is too close?"

[SomeChump]

If there is enough room to fit a hole in between the two holes I find it annoyingly long. There's nothing wrong with a 19 hole course. Just add an extra hole there, even if it isn't that great of one. If I gotta walk 200 feet, I might as well play another 200 feet of course.

[Countchunkula]

@ OP, I like the way you think. How about "how close is too close?"

I've played a few courses around the Chicago area that had teepads inside the putting circle of the previous basket. Entirely inside the circle, with no trees or shrubs to provide cover.

[Countchunkula]

Generally I don't like excessive walks between holes. Especially if you are walking back down the side of the fairway you just played.

One of our local courses, Channahon, has a couple long walks through the woods. I find these pleasant due to the seclusion and wildlife viewing potential. I can't think of another course where I've enjoyed the long walk.

I think the length of walk that is tolerable is closely related to the quality of the holes immediately before and after. If I have to walk a long way to play two average holes, I'm frustrated. If I have to walk a long way for two epic holes, than it's probably worth it.

[LeewayeDiscGolf]

Colorado is good at having courses with the next tee pad entirely too close to the previous basket. Although most of the courses with longer walks between two holes are made up for by the fact that the holes are really good holes, not just fillers.

[thrembo]

I don't mind a few long walks, on an awesome course. As long as there is a clear trail, or signs pointing me in the right direction, so if I'm playing it for the 1st time, I'm not wandering around in the woods looking for the next hole!

[BrotherDave]

I voted 250-300'. While there are plenty of conceivable reasons why I am more than happy to walk a lot longer than that, I imagined the OP was somehow getting at an ideal situation on an ideal course.......

Great Dave's think alike. :)

A long walk can kill a course's vibe worse than a filler hole or two I think. I was playing the new RL Smith course yesterday and the walk from 12 to 13 was easily over 400'. Just really stands out b/c the course is great otherwise.

One thing that I do think gets blown out of proportion though are long walks from the front 9 to the back 9 that go through the parking lot. That doesn't bother me at all b/c half the golfers I know like to stop by their car to re-up on drinks, bug repellent, sun block, whatever.

[Dave242]

@ Dave242, I like the point you're making. It seems like your "ideal" list the course started with a blank slate, and really nothing or not much to fit the holes around or through, whereas your "shoehorned" list is more about finding ways to fit holes between ball fields, roads, tennis courts, BMX tracks, etc. and making it all work and flow together.

While certainly true that most of the "ideals" seem to have a blank slate to start with, several of the "ideal" courses have transitions at least as long as most of the "shoehorned", and in several cases longer. Leviathan has one that is at least 400', but it is through absolutely gorgeous woods in a difficult part of the course.....so it makes for a very nice interlude.

In another case, Lemon Lake Silver/Gold, it is obvious that many basket and next tees are positioned much further apart than they need to be if they were designing mainly for flow.....but instead it is obvious that they chose to maximize hole design for great holes and good course balance/experience/variety.

Conversely, while Cliff Stephens is shoehorned between property boundaries, the road and the ponds, it is so well done and flows so well that it really does not have a typical feel of a shoehorned course.

[optidiscic]

Camp Sankanac has some long transitions....almost too many for my tastes...I'd like a hole or 2 as theres plenty of room and potential without changing the feel of the course

Sometimes walks are neccesary are often players will never understand why the course has the transitions......in a perfect world...I'd like 100 foot walks between all holes

[vonDrehle]

I don't mind long walk as long as there is a reason for it. For instance in Hickory there is maybe a 400ft walk between hole 3 and 4. There is nothing that can be done about this because that area is always extremely crowded during the summer and no one wants to be throwing over 4 families grilling and a pick up soccer game.

[jrawk]

I don't mind a walk beyond 300 feet as long as the path is well marked and the destination teepad is easy to find at the end of the walk.

[simpletwist]

I don't mind a long walk if it makes for a better use of the terrain.

[Sadjo]

One of the courses I helped design has a 1,200' walk between holes 8 and 9. When the course went into the ground, the parameters we faced included not cutting any tress, keeping all baskets at least 20' away from any trees or other objects and the fact that the property is really large and there were elements we wanted to use and did what we had to do to use those elements.

Since the course went in the ground last summer, we've made several small changes, a couple of big changes and are looking at a possible redesign to shorten that transition.

One thing about the transition is it is a nice walk down a large hill then through the woods before be rewarded with water holes that the first time you play the course, you never even see the water (a large lake) till you get to hole 9.

Some have complained and others have said they enjoy the walk.

[Danger]

I am okay with a long walk as long as the path is defined. I also prefer my walk to be uphill, to a teepad that plays level or downhill.

Sky High DGC in Wrightwood, CA has several 200-500 foot long walks, but they are all uphill, and when you get to the tee-pad it makes sense why the course was designed that way. Sky High is also somewhat spread out so the walks between holes improve the spread between groups.

[Dave242]

One of the courses I helped design has a 1,200' walk between holes 8 and 9.

That is pretty long.....but on this course (http://www.dgcoursereview.com/course.php?id=1000) you need to get in your car and drive from hole 9 to 10! :doh:

[Dave242]

Sky High DGC in Wrightwood, CA has several 200-500 foot long walks, but they are all uphill, and when you get to the tee-pad it makes sense why the course was designed that way.

I am a big fan of the fun-factor of downhill throws. To accomplish this best, having the transition paths going uphill is great. I am a big fan whenever I transition uphill! .....and I always get bummed when transitioning downhill since that means there will be more uphill throws than downhill.

[optidiscic]

Whispering Falls in PA has a 1/2 mile walk uphill that is the price u pay for the wonderful drive downhill on 10 and then a gorgeous drive next to a river.....in this case u get the 2 unique holes and then u walk back uphill to the finish of the course after

[Peterb]

Pinto Lake (http://www.dgcoursereview.com/course.php?id=3107) has a 1500' walk that begins with a walk back up the fairway of the hole you just finished. I'm fairly certain that this was 'designing for the holes' rather than designing for flow. Since this course is slated to be where the championships for worlds will be this summer, it will undoubtedly see the scrutiny of many a touring pro.

[optidiscic]

Pinto Lake (http://www.dgcoursereview.com/course.php?id=3107) has a 1500' walk that begins with a walk back up the fairway of the hole you just finished. I'm fairly certain that this was 'designing for the holes' rather than designing for flow. Since this course is slated to be where the championships for worlds will be this summer, it will undoubtedly see the scrutiny of many a touring pro.

waaaaah probably the ones bitching will be shooting a poor round and those shooting hot will be gloating their last birdie

[sonny]

How about "how close is too close?"

When they draw 10 meter circles around the baskets and the line goes over the next tee pad....

you may be too close.

[ferretdance03]

I haven't played a course that had a walk that was too much for me.

Whispering Falls in PA has a 1/2 mile walk uphill that is the price u pay for the wonderful drive downhill on 10 and then a gorgeous drive next to a river.....in this case u get the 2 unique holes and then u walk back uphill to the finish of the course after
According to my super accurate iPhone gps app it's only a little over 1/4 mile. :)
And in our case it wasn't/isn't feasible to put a hole along the walk due to property line constraints. Gotta do what you gotta do.

[optidiscic]

I haven't played a course that had a walk that was too much for me.


According to my super accurate iPhone gps app it's only a little over 1/4 mile. :)
And in our case it wasn't/isn't feasible to put a hole along the walk due to property line constraints. Gotta do what you gotta do.

I never complained those valley holes r worth it to me and make the course.....but 1/4 uphill is equal to 1/2 in internet distance right?

[bikinjack]

I am a big fan of the fun-factor of downhill throws. To accomplish this best, having the transition paths going uphill is great. I am a big fan whenever I transition uphill! .....and I always get bummed when transitioning downhill since that means there will be more uphill throws than downhill.

You so need to play Sugaree.

[ferretdance03]

I never complained those valley holes r worth it to me and make the course.....but 1/4 uphill is equal to 1/2 in internet distance right?

Absolutely. And to my fat butt it feels like 2 mile.:D

[Stan McDaniel]

At Hornet's Nest there is an 1100' transition between 1 and 2. Hole 1 is conveniently located right near the parking lot. No searching for the start of the course. Sometimes you cannot avoid being unable to start a course near the parking lot (R.L.Smith here in Charlotte). The 1100' transition allows for holes 1 and 10 to be near each other (perhaps a little too near) and near the parking lot and the restroom. I think we got a lot in return for the 1100' transition.

[optidiscic]

At Hornet's Nest there is an 1100' transition between 1 and 2. Hole 1 is conveniently located right near the parking lot. No searching for the start of the course. Sometimes you cannot avoid being unable to start a course near the parking lot (R.L.Smith here in Charlotte). The 1100' transition allows for holes 1 and 10 to be near each other (perhaps a little too near) and near the parking lot and the restroom. I think we got a lot in return for the 1100' transition.

holes 1 and 2 are incredible golf holes......to squeeze a filler hole in there wouldve killed the wow wow wow wow! of those first 4 holes

[Stan McDaniel]

holes 1 and 2 are incredible golf holes......to squeeze a filler hole in there wouldve killed the wow wow wow wow! of those first 4 holes

Your note brings up a good topic, filler holes. There is probably a thread on this somewhere, but I am not in the hunting mode. My take on filler holes is that they are frequently brought into existence because a designer gets married to one or more holes too early in the design process. This can tie the designer into very specific geographical areas and force squeezing in filler holes. Sometimes a designer will see this super fantastic hole and won't consider changing it come hell or high water. That is fine if there is enough land available to create other good holes but I rarely have that luxury.

Tying this thought to the current topic, I am happy to take a longer hike if it helps to eliminate one or more filler holes and creates better golf holes. After all, along with the golf, I am out there for exercise too.

[Sadjo]

Your note brings up a good topic, filler holes. There is probably a thread on this somewhere, but I am not in the hunting mode. My take on filler holes is that they are frequently brought into existence because a designer gets married to one or more holes too early in the design process. This can tie the designer into very specific geographical areas and force squeezing in filler holes. Sometimes a designer will see this super fantastic hole and won't consider changing it come hell or high water. That is fine if there is enough land available to create other good holes but I rarely have that luxury.

Tying this thought to the current topic, I am happy to take a longer hike if it helps to eliminate one or more filler holes and creates better golf holes. After all, along with the golf, I am out there for exercise too.

I agree. At one of the course in my area we designed, there is a hole that several of us wanted...as the design process went on, we realized making that hole work within the confines of the over all design, it just wasn't going to make the cut.

When I play that course with my other co-designers, we ofter look at that lost hole and wonder what could've been...