DGLO am's shenanigans

[JCthrills]

Alright, I slept on it twice & am still pretty steamed over this tournament.

First, kudos are certainly in order for the amazing player packs, no denying they were the best outside of Am Nats. Even though I lost my alum. water bottle running to the second round tee off. The radar gun was also a very, very cool side game to pass time while others were cashing out. Did anyone ever top 72mph?

The bad part, Lunchtime... where everything went downhill. I rode to the event with 2 Am3 player, I played Am2. After my card finishes the first round at about 1:30 we are told that the second round may be starting at about 2:00... what? yes, a half hour from when we came in. Well, that was pushed out to 2:15. Here's my complaint. The Am3 players I rode with did not finish their first round until about 1:50. So i get to my lunch which was locked in the vehicle I rode in... I scarfed down my lunch, changed socks & started running to my hole (12 Monster) the 2 minute warning was blown before I made it out of the parking lot. Despite running straight through the brush I didn't make it to my hole on time (i was tied for 3rd place overall & top of the second card.) I made it there as my group was walking off the tee pad & informed of my penalty, taking a 7 on an easy par hole that many players took a 2 on. This penalty cost me 2nd place outright & about $100 in merch. Try as I may to come back from the penalty it surely took away any momentum I had from finishing strong the first round. I managed to claw my way back to -1 for the round with 9 birdies. Basically trying to ace run everything possible in hopes I could have gotten a legitimate platform to voice my displeasure with the majority of players. I had a few good runs but missed out.

I would not have been upset or penalized/late for my 2nd round start had the TD announced this ridiculous staggered start before the first round. It would have been simple to make arrangements, either take the keys or put my lunch in vehicle from someone on my card. Springing it on us at lunch time was complete & utter B.S.

The played pack, payouts & radar gun side game were all very cool. The total screw up of not telling us about the donkey staggered 2nd round start was horrible. I stopped by No Foolin to watch awards & participate in the basket toss & heard a lot of complaining, figured I'd still give DGLO a shot, the player pack helped a ton in that respect.

NEVER again with a penny of mine or anyone I can sway in my direction go to A3. I understand you cant please everyone in a crowd of players that large, but to totally ignore this lunch thing during the player meeting was horrible. Thanks for the lesson guys.

~Jesse

I posted on this forum hoping to get some feedback from players outside of the local area. Am I justified in being this upset days after the tourney? I managed to somehow let it go & still bang 9 birds through 24 holes & take a tie for 7th place (10th was last cash I think) But, the penalty cost me 2nd place outright, a trophy (pretty nice wood carved one) and $100 in merch, not to mention again the momentum swing that might have given me a few more strokes needed to stay with the eventual winner that was also on the second card with me.

[solomon.trenton]

i would say you are justified. but think of it this way, you could have eaten your lunch while heading to the next hole you were teeing off on, and you could have switched which vehicle your lunch was in. everything is 20-20 in hindight mind you but the argument is still there.

[mmyersdisc]

well to be honest with you...the group you were in were *******s and wanted you to lose...we had this same problem at a tournament I went to...yes its a 7 on a hole that you are late for BUT if you are in the provision of another player on your card you can play that hole and take that score if the group is willing. We had a guy show up late on my card (lead card) and we had played the hole completely and were on the next tee pad as he was running (literally) up behind us telling him the TD told him the wrong place to start...so we let him play the hole after we were done before walking up to turn in the card. Seems like the guys on your card were just dicks if they wouldn't stop from walking a few steps and let you throw really fast...

[DavidSauls]

Don't blame the other players for following the rules.

There's no provision in the rules for allowing the late player to play out the hole solo, regardless of the circumstances. They all made it there in time, under the same lunch constraints, apparently. While they may consent to ignoring the rule in this case, they don't have the consent of other competitors on other cards.

The ire may be appropriately focused at the TD. The norm is an hour for lunch from when the last card is turned in. I've known TDs to have to cut it short because the first round ran late and daylight was an issue, but even that put a burden on the players. It apparently wasn't the case here; what was the reason given, if any, for the short lunch?

[StymieDidIt]

Poor sportsmanship. It's a discgolf tourney. Competition does strange things to some people's better judgement. Rules or not, there are situations that are open to interpretation and enforcement. Who wants to win under those conditions anyway? I don't think I could take any pride in knowing that I just cost this guy a place in the top five because he was late to tee off. I mean, if he was MIA and showed up 10 minutes late, that's a little different, but if you're walking up to the tee pad, WTF, who cares, let him catch up. On the other hand, I don't think I'd be too concerned with eating my lunch and changing my socks, if I were in doing THAT well in a tournament.

[Dave242]

Bummer this happened this way! Sounds like you played well and did yourself proud especially in the face of this adversity. Sounds like you are rightly chalking this up to a good learning experience.

Did you appeal the 4 stroke penalty with the TD? Did you play your first hole out with provisional throws? You would have needed to make an appeal, I believe. Not saying that would have helped, but that seems to be the only way that the outcome could be more amenable to the circumstances. Running large 1 day events is very hard to administrate, so I empathize with the TD too.

[mmyersdisc]

Don't blame the other players for following the rules.

There's no provision in the rules for allowing the late player to play out the hole solo, regardless of the circumstances. They all made it there in time, under the same lunch constraints, apparently. While they may consent to ignoring the rule in this case, they don't have the consent of other competitors on other cards.

The ire may be appropriately focused at the TD. The norm is an hour for lunch from when the last card is turned in. I've known TDs to have to cut it short because the first round ran late and daylight was an issue, but even that put a burden on the players. It apparently wasn't the case here; what was the reason given, if any, for the short lunch?

Actually you can throw the hole with provisions...like dave242 backed me up on. Its a group decision...espcially if they JUST tee'd off, how hard is it to walk out of the fairway and let you throw? not that hard..those guys were being dicks and they knew it...

[bayouace]

DG is a laid-back, friendly sport - but money, discs, and trophies can change things fast.

[DavidSauls]

Let me back off a bit....I misread original post as they were walking off the hole. It said they were walking off the tee, so a little more leniency might be expected.

I think provisionals are at the discretion of the thrower, not the group, when a rule is in question. In the end, the TD would probably stick by the rulebook. But it's always a good idea to use the provisionals and sort it out later.

[craigg]

Well....................

All these calls for leniency - and calling players dicks for not allowing someone to circumvent the rules is a little disturbing.

Do you have cause for being upset w/the TD for not adequately preparing you for a short break? ABSOLUTELY!!

Could you have found another way to get to your tee on time avoiding this whole scenario? ABSOLUTELY!! If your travelling companions got in 25 min before your round was slated to start - why didn't you have them drive you out to your tee? Could you have gone to tournament central to have the TD hold off blowing the horn for 5 minutes?

Hind sight is always better of course. And I'm not going to give you grief. But placing blame is ultimately fruitless, and I think you should be looking for a lesson to take away from this that doesn't involve blaming someone else.

The rules are there for a reason. If one group says "Sure go ahead and play - we won't hold that rule against you", and another group does the opposite - where does that leave us in regards to a level playing field?? Even in Amateur competition, there needs to be emphasis on knowing, following, and calling the rules as they are written. Doing so doesn't make you a dick, immoral, or uncompassionate - it makes you an essential part of ensuring a level playing field for all.

[biscoe]

td error- plenty of daylight so no reason for a short lunch.

players in the group did what they were required to do by the rules of play.

[JR Stengele]

DG is a laid-back, friendly sport - but money, discs, and trophies can change things fast.

That's just it! It is amazing how people act under certain conditions. It shows their true colors. Sorry bro but nice job staying in the top 10 to cash out. Good on ya!

[DavidSauls]

I wonder what true colors are shown by someone who thinks the rules shouldn't apply to him?

Perhaps the true colors shown were not desire to win, but desire that we play by the rules. You know, call OB "OB", call a putt that falls out a "miss", even if these weren't really the thrower's fault.

Perhaps not. I don't know their reasons. I'd be lenient---I'm inclined to apply judgement when applying the rules---but I won't denigrate anyone who calls a rule properly.

[kerplunk]

I thought you could still throw until someone takes their second shot. From the sound of it, you made it before this point, so I think they should have let you throw. But I agree it was mostly the TDs fault- you can't really fault the other players for following the rules.

This is a great reason that more tourneys like the North Carolina Homegrown Tour need to be set up (Google it if you haven't heard of it). All the fun of a big DG tourney without all the stupid rules, especially the ones that say no drinking!

[Roc1Time]

Actually you can throw the hole with provisions...like dave242 backed me up on. Its a group decision...espcially if they JUST tee'd off, how hard is it to walk out of the fairway and let you throw? not that hard..those guys were being dicks and they knew it...

I second that, if they were still there then you should have been able to throw it without the 7. But you could have done things different as well. The TD messed up by not saying anything about that during the meeting. So all in all everyone messed up and guess what...you will never be late again!

[DavidSauls]

I thought you could still throw until someone takes their second shot. From the sound of it, you made it before this point, so I think they should have let you throw.

You have 30 seconds from when your name is called---that is, when it's your time to drive. After that, the next person in order drives and you've missed the hole.

Harsh, but consider the unintended results if you didn't have this rule. Players wandering up whenever they feel. After their turn to throw. After everyone else has thrown. After everyone else has thrown and walked halfway down the fairway. After everyone else has putted out, but not left the hole. After everyone else has reached the next tee. I know some folks who are inherently tardy, and would push this as far as they could. Where do you draw the line? And wherever you draw the line, someone who just misses it will cry that you're just using the rule to win.

Much simpler to say the rule is that you'll be at your hole and ready when it's your turn, and no one have to wait on you.

[kerplunk]

You have 30 seconds from when your name is called---that is, when it's your time to drive. After that, the next person in order drives and you've missed the hole. ...Much simpler to say the rule is that you'll be at your hole and ready when it's your turn, and no one have to wait on you.

I agree with you if that is the rule, which makes sense based on what I know about the rules vs hearsay of other players. I think most of us are aware that PDGAs are all about rules, which I think is actually a draw for people that are all about rules and regulations. I don't mind following the rules, I but I wish they would allow people to drink moderately so long as they contain personal control and responsibility (and waive liability). But I guess that wouldn't go too far toward the sport being taken seriously.

[taxman]

I sympathize with your plight. But I don’t feel that it is a legitimate reason to complain about a whole tourney. Other than the lunch time snafu it sounded like a pretty cool tourney. Sorry it didn’t work out for you, and I wish I could have been there to enjoy the day.

[swellerdiscgolf]

I personally would have taken my lunch and socks to the tee pad, and if I had time, changed my socks before throwing and then ate my lunch as I played. The TD should have informed everyone of the starting time before the tournament began, but the others on the card were in the same situation, kind of. Their lunch, and spare socks probably were not in someone else car who had yet to finish. Sorry to hear about losing out to 2nd place, but good work on finishing where you did. I know a lot of people who would have said f-it, and not even tried.

[gwillim]

804.02A
"...If a player is not present to throw when it is his or her turn, the scorekeeper shall allow 30
seconds. If the player has not thrown after the 30 seconds has elapsed, a score of par plus
four is to be entered for that hole. This procedure continues on any subsequent holes for which
a player is absent. No holes shall be replayed."

[80playedin10states]

nice post once again cg...take a lesson from it and never look down on someone for knowing the rules during a tourney..

[kyflash]

At what point would you stop bending the rules?
Late from lunch?
Two meter rule?
Missed mando?
What happened is unfortunate. But it is YOUR responsibility to make sure you eat if you think that you ought to eat. It is YOUR responsibility to change your socks if you think you ought to. It is YOUR responsibility to make it to YOUR assigned pad at the correct time.

~Jesse

I posted on this forum hoping to get some feedback from players outside of the local area. Am I justified in being this upset days after the tourney? I managed to somehow let it go & still bang 9 birds through 24 holes & take a tie for 7th place (10th was last cash I think) But, the penalty cost me 2nd place outright, a trophy (pretty nice wood carved one) and $100 in merch, not to mention again the momentum swing that might have given me a few more strokes needed to stay with the eventual winner that was also on the second card with me.

Hopefully you learned that in this world, nobody will look after better than yourself.

[DavidSauls]

Kerplunk, the alcohol rule is like the late-for-start rule. Many people would like to lighten up on the alcohol, but how do you set a rule, let alone enforce a rule, about how much alcohol is too much. I once played with someone who was drinking a beer in the 4th round, and I just let it go. As the round went on, that beer seemed to really be having an effect on him. With about 3 holes left, I looked in his bag; it had 3 discs and a dozen empty beercans. He was sloshed.

The heck with being a serious sport. This affected everyone else's enjoyment of the tournament. And potentially could have had disc golf removed from the park, if he'd been caught.

I'm of the opinion that we start with the rules, but some discretion can be used by the referees, generally the other members of the group but also the TD. This happens in other sports, with certain rules, as well as life outside of sports, as consideration is given to the rule and circumstances. If a player in my group arrived at the tee just as we were walking off, in an event where lunch had been cut short, I think I'd let him go ahead and tee off out of order. But I've no complaint with those who call the rule as written.

[Dave242]

The way the PDGA rules are set up there is wiggleroom around the rigid/harsh "letter of the law" giving flexibility for strange/unanticiapted circumstances. It is up to the TD (or designated official) to rule on how to add this flexiblity. Here is how you approach these sort of appeals:

Rule 803.01.C
(2) To appeal the group’s or an offi cial’s
ruling: A set of provisional throws may
be taken to complete a hole pursuant to
803.01 D(3) when the player disagrees
with the majority group decision and
an offi cial is not readily available, or if
the player wishes to appeal the decision
of an offi cial. The scores from both sets
of throws shall be recorded. The proper
ruling and score are then determined by
the director at the end of the round.
D. Appeals:
(1) When a group cannot reach a majority
decision regarding a ruling, the benefit of
the doubt shall be given to the thrower.
However, any player may seek the ruling
of an offi cial, and the offi cial’s ruling shall
supersede the group’s ruling. Any player
desiring an appeal of the group’s decision
shall promptly and clearly express that
desire to the group.

IMO, with this being a 1 day B-Tier AM event and this happening in the Intermediate division, there is reason why a TD might offer some flexibility on this sort of thing (more so if it were a C-Tier).

Also IMO, 4 strokes is very harsh in how this circumstance played out compared to almost all other rules infractions that are only 1-2 stroke penalties. Maybe the TD would have granted some leniency had this procedure been followed.

[craigg]

803.01 C is intended to protect a player where interpretation of a rule is unclear under a given situation, and a certified official is not available to rule. It is not intended to be used every time a player disagrees with the rules. In this case the rule is pretty clear. Unfortunate, but clear.

I'll give you an example of where a provisional is justified that happened to me recently. While playing Central Park in Atlanta at the Atlanta Open NT, I threw a shot on hole 1 that landed on top of a concrete Curb Inlet (This is a storm drain structure, w/a manhole in it). The program stated that all concrete was OB, but that the grass line adjacent to the curb was the ob line. In this case, the inlet structure was a rectangular area jutting into the grass from the street, and I was convinced that the intent was that the curb/grass line was the OB line - and not this random 4'x12' area of concrete - so I played a provisional - asked the TD after the round - and ended up not having to take a penalty (which my group thought I should at the time).

803.01C is not a magic pill that allows for bending the rules. It is a safety net intended to clarify situations not clearly covered, or correctly interpreted by players during play.

This is where actually CARRYING a rule book, and KNOWING what's in it can assist you during tournament play. This is why it's called a TOURNAMENT and not organized casual play. Once you enter a sanctioned tournament, you are defacto agreeing to follow all the rules in the rule book. Do yourself a favor and carry one with you. Do yourself a bigger favor and learn what's in it - I guarantee you will reap benefits from that knowlege in the future.

[Dave242]

803.01 C is intended to protect a player where interpretation of a rule is unclear under a given situation, and a certified official is not available to rule. It is not intended to be used every time a player disagrees with the rules. .......
803.01C is not a magic pill that allows for bending the rules. It is a safety net intended to clarify situations not clearly covered, or correctly interpreted by players during play.

I am not saying this any sort of magic pill to bend the rules. I am saying it is the proper route to APPEAL certain rulings.

You say provisionals are there in "situations not clearly covered". that is EXACTLY what this situation was: The length of lunch that deviated from normal situations was not properly covered in the players meeting making it so that proper arrangements with his car riders.

[StymieDidIt]

WOW! I've got say I'm a little shocked at how many are "rules are rules" people, especially considering the offense and the consequences. Am I the only one that would have a hard time looking this guy in the eye, if the TD approached me asked if it was OK for him to throw, and say NO, F him and his 4 stroke penalty, he had his 30 seconds and he showed up several seconds too late? I'm all for playing by the rules, I'm sure they're all there for a reason. But...this doesn't seem like one of those "rules" that can't have interpretation or consideration from the TD. And 4 strokes....? HOLY CRAP! I don't want a speeding ticket for doing 27mph in a 25 mph zone. Yeah, I'm breaking the law but....seriously. I think there has to be some discretion. JMO.

[DavidSauls]

I would hope the cop would show discretion in not ticketing you for 27 in a 25....but if I were the judge and there was no question that you were doing 27 in a 25, I'd have to find you guilty.

If by "rules are rules" you mean applying rules without discretion, there aren't that many, either on this thread or in disc golf. Notice the footfaults and 30-second violations that aren't called.

If "rules are rules" means rules can be called and, if called correctly, should be upheld, well, I guess I'm one of those. Call me on a footfault, and I'll take the warning and throw again.

[kerplunk]

I would hope the cop would show discretion in not ticketing you for 27 in a 25....but if I were the judge and there was no question that you were doing 27 in a 25, I'd have to find you guilty.

If by "rules are rules" you mean applying rules without discretion, there aren't that many, either on this thread or in disc golf. Notice the footfaults and 30-second violations that aren't called.

If "rules are rules" means rules can be called and, if called correctly, should be upheld, well, I guess I'm one of those. Call me on a footfault, and I'll take the warning and throw again.

I wish it would become acceptable to call people on the 30 second thing though. Some people take ENTIRELY too long to take their shot. One of the many things that makes DG better than BG in my opinion- limited time to take a shot.

[StymieDidIt]

No, I understand, and I certainly don't want to begrudge anyone that believes in Law/rules by the books, but as a competetive person myself, I could take no pride in having one of my group assessed this penalty if the TD saw this as a discretionary issue(which I do believe it should have been), and gave the members of our group the choice. That would also apply if I were the member of any other group in the event. I've been to too many events where a PA system is used to annouce matches, bouts, etc, and in my humble opinion, there are too many variables that could affect whether or not a player can hear the address if there is no redundant sytem in place, like player boards and match trees. I've see a lot of people miss their call for silly reasons. So, would you waive the penalty, or allow your playing partner to take the penalty? It doesn't appear that, in this situation at least, it affected the round in any way?

[craigg]

I think you're missing the point Stymiedidit.

Much of the leniency being displayed here reflects an attitude that implies; "unless there is a blatant attempt at cheating - I'm gonna cut the guy some slack - and not apply a penalty for fear of being labeled a dick or a rules nazi".

Is it ever pleasant to see one of your fellow competitors penalized? Of course not.

Do players unintentionally break the rules? All the time.

Allowing leniency, or group interpretation, that differs from that in the rule book has several negative effects. It gives people the expectation that they aren't "necessarily" going to be held to the letter of the rule book - that there are exceptions (this leads to the worst sort of "entitlement" attitude possible.). It leads to people believing in rules that aren't actually rules (show a new tournament player the wrong way to do something, and what will they do the next time?) It leads to attitudes such as those displayed on this thread - that those that DO enforce the rules, are in some way bad people, uncaring, or only out to screw the offender (and that just aint right).

Couple them all together and what you get is a whole group of people unwilling to call ANYTHING.

At what point do you stand up and say -sorry - you broke a rule, this is the penalty? I gotta say that point is when you plop down your entry fee. If you want to play by only some of the rules, or only the ones you think are worth a s&&t - don't enter tournaments.

[DavidSauls]

Personally, as one of the other players in the group, I would have let him throw.

If I were TD and someone appealed to me, I'd uphold the ruling of the group.

With the possible exception, in this very particular case as described in the original post, if I felt as TD I was culpable due to a poor job of handling the lunch break. We have only the original poster's version of events, of course, but (1) if lunch was less than the customary hour, for no particular reason, (2) if no mention of a short lunch had been made at the player's meeting, and (3) if no proper notice was posted---almost everywhere I've played, a sign has been posted indicating the next tee time---then I'd use or abuse my power as TD to say it was partly my fault, no penalty.

[DavidSauls]

Craigg

Though I'm in general agreement and wish the culture of disc golf were stricter adherence to the rules, in most sports there are many rules in which discretion or judgement is used in the application of the rule.

[craigg]

Yes I understand that David - all I am saying is that we have been, and continue to develop a rules culture focused not on how to apply the rules - but whether or not to apply them.

In this case - the original poster should have made an appeal to the TD before turning in his scorecard - if there was any real question about the penalty. Stewing on it for days - and then seeking a sympathetic ear by placing blame on everybody but himself does nothing more than promote the idea that people who enforce the rules are the offenders. That's just not right.

[DavidSauls]

Yes I understand that David - all I am saying is that we have been, and continue to develop a rules culture focused not on how to apply the rules - but whether or not to apply them.

In this case - the original poster should have made an appeal to the TD before turning in his scorecard - if there was any real question about the penalty. Stewing on it for days - and then seeking a sympathetic ear by placing blame on everybody but himself does nothing more than promote the idea that people who enforce the rules are the offenders. That's just not right.

Complete agreement.

And well put.

[StymieDidIt]

Craig-

One last point, and then we can, as they say, agree to disagree. Maybe the reason I'm being so pig headed about this, is because there was really no cheating or personal gain. There was no foot fault, no OB, no violation of any rule that compromised the integrity of the game or affected the round for others. We didn't have Judge Smails out on the course "improving his lie". Individuals that stretch the limits of the rules for their own betterment(word?) or break them all together, are scum bags, no doubt. Thanks for your opinion. Have a great day!

[craigg]

Craig-

One last point, and then we can, as they say, agree to disagree. Maybe the reason I'm being so pig headed about this, is because there was really no cheating or personal gain. There was no foot fault, no OB, no violation of any rule that compromised the integrity of the game or affected the round for others. We didn't have Judge Smails out on the course "improving his lie". Individuals that stretch the limits of the rules for their own betterment(word?) or break them all together, are scum bags, no doubt. Thanks for your opinion. Have a great day!

Yes we can agree to disagree :)
Where I would love to give benefit of the doubt - and believe that as you put it there was "no personal gain", or "no violation of any rule that compromised the integrity of the game or affected the round for others," that is plainly not the case.

Dude missed his tee time. The rules say there's a penalty for that.
Not applying a penalty would affect standings for everyone within 4 strokes of his score. How does that not include personal gain, or not affect others?

Is every penalty in the rule book applicable to actions taken during play? Is every penalty a punishment for cheating? The unfortunate answer is no. I had to penalize someone last weekend for adding their scorecard wrong. They obviously didn't do it on purpose - but ultimately it was THEIR responsibility to make sure it was correct before handing it in. Responsibility is the key to this unfortunate set of events as well.

Truly - your opinion does make a difference - I am curious why you believe what you've stated.

[DavidSauls]

Craig-

One last point, and then we can, as they say, agree to disagree. Maybe the reason I'm being so pig headed about this, is because there was really no cheating or personal gain. There was no foot fault, no OB, no violation of any rule that compromised the integrity of the game or affected the round for others. We didn't have Judge Smails out on the course "improving his lie". Individuals that stretch the limits of the rules for their own betterment(word?) or break them all together, are scum bags, no doubt. Thanks for your opinion. Have a great day!

To play Rules Advocate for a moment, some of the rules are for the quality of play, not fairness of competition.

Do you have a rule that players must be at the tee in time to start, or not?

If not, imagine players wandering up whenever they want to. What if 3 players had been late instead of 1, and only 1 player there at the start? Imagine players wandering in as the group is halfway through, or has finished the hole. If only 2 players show up on time, not knowing if the late players are just late or not coming at all, those 2 then must scramble to join another group (they shouldn't play as a twosome). Surely, the tardy players are affecting the timely ones.

So you need a rule saying people should be there at the start. In some sports, failure to do so is a forfeiture. Ours says the late player (1) does not play the hole and (2) takes a penalty which pretty much exceeds the worst score he's likely to get on the hole. We could have a rule with a separate, lesser penalty for players who show up late, but before their group has finished the hole (say, play the hole, +2). But we don't, and probably shouldn't.

[SomeChump]

While I agree it is a sucky situation all around, what I would have done if I were the OP is put my lunch and my socks in my bag and run.

You can nibble lunch every few holes and you can sit down on the first bench you come to and change your socks, no? I mean, I haven't been in a real tourney, but no one seems to be moving all that fast in the minis I've been in and the tournament I watched. Heck, half the players were pulling out portable chairs to sit on while others on their card were driving. Surely there's time to change your socks in there somewhere.

[t i m]

I agree that most of this is the OPs fault -- short lunch didn't affect everyone else, apparently. Yes, lunch was shorter than normal, but everyone else dealt with it. And -- even by the OPs admission -- it sounds like the problem was that players in a different division didn't get back to the car in time, so he couldn't get to his lunch when he wanted it. Had the OP had keys, he would have been fine. It's not the TD responsibility to make sure everyone has keys to get into the car they road in. It's not the TD responsibility to make sure everyone has access to lunch.

I'm not trying to be an a******, but I think situations outside of the TD control that affect one person don't dictate exceptions to a rule, or whining.

I've almost missed a tourney because of a flat tire. I almost missed day two of a different event because someone drinking too much borrowed my keys to get something out of my car and broke the key off in the lock by accident.

I've missed lunch before because I rode with friends and couldn't get into a vehicle, and just made do with the granola/fruit bars in my bag.

Lessons learned: always go prepared -- take some extra snacks to get you through the day. And if possible, have extra keys. I make sure to have extra keys anytime I give someone a ride so that we both have access to the car all day -- I encourage others to do the same when I ride with them. It just makes things easier. Often, an unfortunate situation is the best way to learn.

Not to be too hard on the OP: It does sound like the players on the card were following the rules with a fervor not usually found on the disc golf course. I've had people run up late or miss their tee-order on the first hole, and I don't think I've ever had a group that added penalty strokes to the latecomer if we were still playing the hole... If there is no way it will slow play to let the latecomer throw, I've always been in groups that let them throw -- and I think a group would be especially lenient at times with a short lunch. The players do sound like they were -- while within the letter of the rules -- still being less than helpful to the OP, and not acting in the manner most common to disc golfers.

I'm someone who would much rather beat other players based on skill rather than on technicalities. I'll happily bring extra granola bars and share water or other sustenance with other players who need it. If I have an extra towel and it's a muddy/rainy day, they are welcome to have it for the round. At a SuperClass event, I made a point of bringing extra Zephyrs and Superheros to loan out to local pros I was competing with who may not have had one -- I didn't want to win just because I was using better equipment.

I am all for competition -- but it should be skill. OBs and the 6-meter rule, I'm fine with -- avoiding OB is part of course management and is a skill set. However, arriving 45-seconds late to a round has nothing to do with disc golf skill. So I'd vote to be kind as a player on the card.

And I'd tell the OP to adopt the boyscout motto for his next tourney -- especially riding with other people: be prepared.

[Randy Sharp]

In a recent tournament, we didn't get a full hour either and one guy was running late for the second round. He was listed last on the lead card. In order to strictly abide by the rules and still give the late guy a chance to make it, I talked the others on my card into taking his full 30 seconds to throw, but not throwing. We waited another few seconds (just to be sure) before giving him an Excessive Time warning (Rule 801.03), then he held off as long as possible on his "official" 30 seconds.

This scenerio gave the late player an extra three minutes to show up. He barely made it. We broke no rules and, in the spirit of sportsmanship, gave the fellow every opportunity to show up on time. Had he not made it on time, we certainly could have a clear conscience about his being penalized according to the rules.

[Randy Sharp]

Keep in mind, the 4-stroke penalty is not assessed until his name is called and 30 seconds has passed. We used the rulebook on ourselves to help delay the calling of his name. We were not under "his" rule because we were present, according to rule 804.02.

[StymieDidIt]

Ok, I lied, I'm back with more jibberish and useless wisdom.

I'm beating my head against the wall, because I just don't get it. I mean, I get the whole rule thingy about being late yada, yada, yada. Good rule. Now, I didn't write the rule, so it wouldn't be fair for me to suppose the essence of the rule, but somehow I don't think it was written into "law" as to punish the player that actually walks to the tee box as his group is exiting. I wager to surmise, that it may have something to do with players showing up "whenever", as was mentioned by some others regarding this topic. This is probably why the penalty is SO steep. To deter players from delaying and disrupting the tournament. Understand, these are only my opinions, and the rules clearly state what is appropriate action. If the the masses of disc-golfers are accepting of these decisions, then sobeit, I stand alone. As I said earlier, if given the option, I'd let them play penalty free. I'd rather beat someone with skills rather than techicality. Thanks for the spirited debate!

[Dave242]

Now, I didn't write the rule, so it wouldn't be fair for me to suppose the essence of the rule, but somehow I don't think it was written into "law" as to punish the player that actually walks to the tee box as his group is exiting.

I do not know the exact reason for the rule or for the harshness of it in comparison to other rules infractions. I am thinking that a lot of it may have to do with comparisons to disc golf's much better known cousin. There, missing your tee time is an automatic DQ. I think the PDGA might have been trying to eke out a little more legitimacy and respect for our game while preserving a little of our laid back culture.

[StymieDidIt]

Ok, I lied, I'm back with more jibberish and useless wisdom.

I'm beating my head against the wall, because I just don't get it. I mean, I get the whole rule thingy about being late yada, yada, yada. Good rule. Now, I didn't write the rule, so it wouldn't be fair for me to suppose the essence of the rule, but somehow I don't think it was written into "law" as to punish the player that actually walks to the tee box as his group is exiting. I wager to surmise, that it may have something to do with players showing up "whenever", as was mentioned by some others regarding this topic. This is probably why the penalty is SO steep. To deter players from delaying and disrupting the tournament. Understand, these are only my opinions, and the rules clearly state what is appropriate action. If the the masses of disc-golfers are accepting of these decisions, then sobeit, I stand alone. As I said earlier, if given the option, I'd let them play penalty free. I'd rather beat someone with skills rather than techicality. Thanks for the spirited debate!

[StymieDidIt]

Wow, what's with the double post? Sorry guys.

[craigg]

If I recall the history of this rule correctly, it use to be a much smaller penalty - maybe just par +2. The argument was then broached that technically - a player could show up late or miss a really hard hole (par 4 or 5) and get a lesser score by not playing the hole than those that played it - and just didn't play it well. I don't recall the exact set up of the rule in the past - but the extreme penalty was made for seemingly good reasons.
It was about the same time that the rule for a late score card was changed - which used to be a 6 stroke penalty. This one was reduced under the thought that normally it's just one person resonsible for taking off without turning in the card and it wasn't fair to punish the whole group.

So while we all agree that penalizing someone else - or being penalized sucks all the way around, it's part of having a self policing sport - and it's everyones responsibility to live up to rules enforcement if we are to have a level playing field. Selective rules enforcement is fair to no one. The day there are officials on every hole watching every throw, is the day players start calling themselves on rules infractions like you occasionally see in PGA events. If instead we want to continue to have our easy going atmosphere at our sanctioned events - we have to be responsible enough to suck it up and make the hard calls - even if it sucks.

I say its better to make a fair call and have a player learn a lesson and avoid future infractions then it is to vilify those that try to play by the rules.

[ERicJ]

Okay, I'm late to this party and I come down on the side of the debate that Craig & David are supporting. But I'll bring up a couple points that haven't been made yet (I think).

i was tied for 3rd place overall & top of the second card.

Top of the card means he was supposed to be the first to tee off.


... he had his 30 seconds and he showed up several seconds too late?

He wasn't "several seconds" too late. He was probably a "couple minutes" too late as he should have been first and everyone else had thrown and was walking off when he got there.


... because there was really no cheating or personal gain. There was no foot fault, no OB, no violation of any rule that compromised the integrity of the game or affected the round for others!

Not sure why you say there was no personal gain when you're arguing to give one player more break time than the others so he can eat his lunch and change his socks.

[ERicJ]

If I recall the history of this rule correctly, it use to be a much smaller penalty - maybe just par +2. The argument was then broached that technically - a player could show up late or miss a really hard hole (par 4 or 5) and get a lesser score by not playing the hole than those that played it - and just didn't play it well.

And that is exacerbated by lax TD's who list every hole as a Par 3. Take a tough hole that should be a Par 5, but the TD has called everything a Par 3, add in rainy & windy conditions and players could easily chose to show up "late" for their hole and take the 7 while players who play the hole could be carding 8's and 9's....

[StymieDidIt]

Okay, I'm late to this party and I come down on the side of the debate that Craig & David are supporting. But I'll bring up a couple points that haven't been made yet (I think).



Top of the card means he was supposed to be the first to tee off.




He wasn't "several seconds" too late. He was probably a "couple minutes" too late as he should have been first and everyone else had thrown and was walking off when he got there.




Not sure why you say there was no personal gain when you're arguing to give one player more break time than the others so he can eat his lunch and change his socks.

Well, if you need to argue that lunch, socks, and a couple minutes is a personal gain(even though the other players probably ate lunch and changed socks, as well. They just didn't get caught out in the parking lot), then maybe you need to reevaluated your competetive spirit. It seems a little petty to me. Wow, I 'd hate to have to use that as a crutch.

[craigg]

Just curious Stymie, but do you actually play in DG tournaments? And if so - for how long and in what division? Your profile is empty - so it's a little hard to understand where you're coming from. The only reference you give about event experience seems to be about some other sort of competition.

Not that that's all together a bad thing. I'm just not understanding how you equate "competitive spirit" with selective application of the rules.

I'm all about earning your spot on the leaderboard by posting the best score you can, and have that be the primary determining factor in how you place in the field. But the reality of tournament play is that there are sometimes other things that can affect your posted score - that have nothing to do with your thrown disc. Competitive spirit to me includes managing all of the above. Enforcing the rules shouldn't be looked at as a crutch for diminishing others, but as an important element of the games integrity.

[Cradical]

I think that it is far enough past the tournament that arguing for your score to the official would be pointless, therefore the best thing you can do now is just move on and learn never to be late again. I feel bad that all of those unlucky events took place, but I suppose that's just life.

I read something about alcohol on the courses during this thread. I know all of you "old" guys want to have some drinks while you're in the tournament, but then would you not allow players under 21 to play? Say you didn't know that someone on your card was under 21 and you gave him a beer for a hole in one, then you could both be charged.
I suppose I personally feel that no alcohol or any other illegal substance should be tollerated on the course, it just gives the sport a bad image.
Back to the point though, because he was first to throw, if he was even a minute late, he should get called. Because there is money involved, you have to call it by the book. If you don't like all the rules, you can play with friends who also don't like the rules.
To the guy that said he could take no pride in beating somebody if they had enforced this rule on that guy, I have to say I could take no pride if I won because nobody enforced a rule on me. You're a different kind of competitive if you have to cheat to win.

All in all, I feel bad that it happened and because it wasn't 100% your fault. I do not have all that much sympathy because you didn't do everything you could have to be early or on time. If you knew you were on a certain hole and knew how far away it was, you could have just watched your watch and made sure you got there by the 2 minute warning.

[biscoe]

Well, if you need to argue that lunch, socks, and a couple minutes is a personal gain(even though the other players probably ate lunch and changed socks, as well. They just didn't get caught out in the parking lot), then maybe you need to reevaluated your competetive spirit. It seems a little petty to me. Wow, I 'd hate to have to use that as a crutch.

as you say, the other players probably ate lunch and changed socks as well... they were all able to make it to the tee on time- where does personal accountability/culpability factor in?

[cc0049]

I'm someone who would much rather beat other players based on skill rather than on technicalities.

I agree. In one of the recent tournaments I played, one of the guys was running late to the first hole on the first round because of traffic and a miscommunication as to what hole he was supposed to start on. All of us on the card took our full 30 seconds on each shot to give him time to get there. He came running up just as we were about to putt out. We let him tee off and play the hole and we all holed out together. We did not asess him any stroke penalty and he went on to win the tournament in our division. I have no regrets about that. He beat us fair and square and I wouldn't want some rule book technicality to change that.

I'm more of a "spirit of the law" person as opposed to a "letter of the law" person. The rule is there to promote a timely flow of play. He was not trying to get away with anything. He did everything he could to get there on time. It should be up to the discretion of the players on the card.

If they want to enforce the rule, then they have every right to, but I personally would not be in favor of stroking someone over that. As long as players have to police themselves in disc golf tournaments, this is going to remain a dilemma...especially with the differing viewpoints on the issue.

[cc0049]

The day there are officials on every hole watching every throw, is the day players start calling themselves on rules infractions like you occasionally see in PGA events.

I agree. The honorable thing to do, would be to call the violation, whatever it may be, on yourself and not leave it up to your card to call you on it. A player should never expect to be given leniency and they shouldn't look down on those that play by the rules and enfore them.

[StymieDidIt]

Just curious Stymie, but do you actually play in DG tournaments? And if so - for how long and in what division? Your profile is empty - so it's a little hard to understand where you're coming from. The only reference you give about event experience seems to be about some other sort of competition.

No, actually I don't/haven't played in any DG tournaments at any level. I'm new to the sport, and to be honest, suck pretty bad. Does that somehow disqualify me from having an opinion on this topic? I've participated in many different sports at many different levels and each one seems to have it's own rule that's there for a reason, but left to subjectivity. Now, I'm not saying that this is a subjective thing, he WAS late. I'm saying that, if I'm an opposing player, if given the choice I'm not penalizing the player. To me, it would be wrong and a lack of sportsmanship on my part. I coudn't live with the fact that I took advantage of this legitimate rule, to impose a 4 stroke penalty on an opposing player that arrived at the tee as we were exiting. Did the violation affect the integrity of the game? Did it affect the players or the score? This is where I have a difference of opinion on the matter. I think, the infraction, as it's alleged to have happened, is something that could have easily been waived in the spirit of the game. The group hadn't finished the hole, they weren't putting out, and they weren't even on their second shots. They were literally just leaving the tee. Not to over simplify it, but this game is about thowing a disc into a basket in the least amount of shots, right? One last point. I'm not debating this on behalf of the player that shows up 10 - 15 minutes late or when the group is long gone. It's about this situation only.

If I want to post here anymore, do I need to change my screen name?
Have a great day everyone! Enjoy the weekend, hopefully throwing discs! It's been raining here for 2 freakin' weeks. Hopefully the weather is better wherever you are.

[craigg]

Just curious Stymie, but do you actually play in DG tournaments? And if so - for how long and in what division? Your profile is empty - so it's a little hard to understand where you're coming from. The only reference you give about event experience seems to be about some other sort of competition.

No, actually I don't/haven't played in any DG tournaments at any level. I'm new to the sport, and to be honest, suck pretty bad. Does that somehow disqualify me from having an opinion on this topic?

Certainly not - Your opinion is as legitimate as any other. Having played tournaments for over 20 years myself, I've learned that eventually you just have to make the call if you want to be "fair" to everybody. It's not always an easy thing to do - and yes - most times you don't "feel good about it", when issuing a penalty to another player.

But much like its wrong for someone to react negatively to someone making a call (calling them an a-hole or worse), it's just as wrong not to make the call at all.

When rules enforcement becomes emotional - the level playing field is sacrificed.

[Dave242]

No, actually I don't/haven't played in any DG tournaments at any level. I'm new to the sport, and to be honest, suck pretty bad. Does that somehow disqualify me from having an opinion on this topic? I've participated in many different sports at many different levels and each one seems to have it's own rule that's there for a reason, but left to subjectivity.
.......
To me, it would be wrong and a lack of sportsmanship on my part. I coudn't live with the fact that I took advantage of this legitimate rule, to impose a 4 stroke penalty on an opposing player that arrived at the tee as we were exiting.
.........
If I want to post here anymore, do I need to change my screen name?

You have no reason at all to feel bad or unwelcome here. Your whole approach fits in great with the spirit of the game and the spirit of disc sports.

Craig is a long time player (skilled at the highest levels), competitor, promotor and TD. He has a long reputation for being a purist when it comes to competition. Both of your voices and philosophies have a ton of merit and discussion about it (even spirited) is good. I would say a huge majority of players lean towards your approach.

Here is one thing that has not been talked about yet in this thread. That is the prestige level of events and how that plays into the subjectivity of rules. This is an unwritten thing, but a dynamic that almost everyone buys into.

On the low end of prestige is casual play. Then local weeklies, minis, PDGA C-tiers, B-Tiers, A-Tiers, National Tour events and finally Majors. The lower the prestige, the more subjectivity, the more the event is aimed at teaching new players, and the more the spirit of fun/enjoyment overshadows the spirit of competitiveness.

On the high end of prestige, competitiveness overshadows everything and the fun is found in that (some do not find that fun, but many do). Of course, good sportsmanship is still desired, but rules are called objectively and there are lots of officials around to make sure of this.

The event in this thread was a 1-day B-Tier....pretty much a middle of the road event in some areas of the country, but in other areas this is almost as prestigious an event as there will be for most players who do not travel far for competition. For this reason, I personally am fine with how things were called.....but am more miffed by the loosy-goosy nature the TD ran things (the more prestige, the tighter the ship should be run).

[craigg]

Good points Dave.
And thanks everybody for a civil discussion - nice to see on a message board - especially when there are differences of opinion.

[DavidSauls]

Good points Dave.
And thanks everybody for a civil discussion - nice to see on a message board - especially when there are differences of opinion.

ABSOLUTELY!

And yes, Stymie, your well-stated opinion is as valuable to this discussion as any other. I hope I never gave any impression otherwise.

[ERicJ]

I'm more of a "spirit of the law" person as opposed to a "letter of the law" person. The rule is there to promote a timely flow of play. He was not trying to get away with anything. He did everything he could to get there on time. It should be up to the discretion of the players on the card.
And as Craig has pointed out the rules are there to maintain an even playing field. If you leave that call up to the discretion of the card how is it fair when one card penalizes a late player four strokes and another card decides not to penalize their late player?

[ERicJ]

Well, if you need to argue that lunch, socks, and a couple minutes is a personal gain(even though the other players probably ate lunch and changed socks, as well. They just didn't get caught out in the parking lot), then maybe you need to reevaluated your competetive spirit. It seems a little petty to me. Wow, I 'd hate to have to use that as a crutch.
The guy got more time than anyone else. Doesn't really matter what he did with that time.

Perhaps if the guy who eventually finished in second place had had a couple extra minutes to down that Red Bull he would have had more energy and would have won the thing.

Or perhaps if another guy who ran his butt off and made it to his starting tee on time had been gifted a couple extra minutes to walk instead of run... he wouldn't have been so winded and wouldn't have shanked that first drive off into the lake.

Personally I like a competition that's fair. Where everyone is playing by the same rules.

[ERicJ]

Here is one thing that has not been talked about yet in this thread. That is the prestige level of events and how that plays into the subjectivity of rules. This is an unwritten thing, but a dynamic that almost everyone buys into.

Very good point. And to expand on that: the division in which you play also factors into the prestige level. Back when I played REC (MA3)... not that long ago... there were a lot of instances of players who took the attitude: "We're only playing REC for goodness sake, that rule XYZ shouldn't matter".

I expect (but do not know... yet) that players in MPO/MPM at a C-Tier probably play to a higher degree of consistency with respect to rules than MA3 players at a B-Tier.

[Dave242]

I expect (but do not know... yet) that players in MPO/MPM at a C-Tier probably play to a higher degree of consistency with respect to rules than MA3 players at a B-Tier.

I would think that is true mainly because they all know the rules and are not at a stage where they are still trying to figure them out and how to implement them.

I think that lots of MPM players play there partly to avoid the bickering and associated stress that comes with some of the high strung young guns. Some of that surrounds rules stuff. So, to your point I think MPO is higher prestige than MPM.