Help me with my form please

[Adontalis]

Hey,

Adontalis here. Trying to work on my form so I can let my discs do the work for me instead of making them do what I want them to. I am in my second year of playing and I can rip my drivers an easy 300 getting much closer to an average 350.

Currently, I have been finding that I am very good and getting huge S curves from my discs. This being because even if I'm thinking release hyzer, by the time the disc comes across my body, my lead shoulder drops a little and my wrist breaks and I release anny. Aggrivating.

The four drivers I used in these videos were a Pro Destroyer, Star Archon, Surge SS, and SL in that order each time.

I'm looking to develope a throw that hyzer flips into a dead straight shot. (Note: I am experimenting with driving across the chest as well as from a lower angle)

#1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=crDw8Zq0apY
#2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eKi2XLvLl64
#3: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RFOmzUmkLbg
#4: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJlG8rj7m0U

Thank you for your time and comments

[dodgeball]

One thing I noticed is that it seems like you're trying to adjust hyzer/anny angle with your hand instead of with your shoulders. Also if ur consistently dropping the right shoulders on release, it could from throwing higher speed discs, which like an anny release. Do u know about discing down? You could be a good candidate for that. Otherwise, it looks like u get a good rip on most of your shots which means late acceleration which is good.

[Adontalis]

Thank you for your reply. I have read a lot about discing down, however I am not clear on it's purpose. To what extent do I disc down? I have a pro leopard and a teebird in dx and star. I find when I throw these though, they flip over on me. So what is the purpose of discing down? How is it implemented? How far should I disc down?

[New013]

the theory in discing down is that it is much easier to learn good form and gain max D with slower drivers than using the higher speed stuff as a crutch. basically some people with terrible form can sling a destroyer out past 350 by strong arming it but that doesn't mean their form is good.

when you can learn to get a disc like a tbird or leopard out to 350 then you are on to something, and can go from there to throwing the higher speed stuff much further.

i'd wait until sidewinder or somebody else chimes in who has expert knowledge on form, i'm not an expert but your throw doesn't look that bad. it looks like you aren't getting any real snap because you are swinging the disc around instead of pulling it through to your chest and getting a good hit. the disc should be going in a straight line instead of a curve. you need elbow chop.

[Mike C]

Well if the teebirds aren't beat, you could use those for your drives until you learn to throw them straight. A teebird in good shape can fly straight as far as you're able to throw.

On some of your drives it looked like you were turning your hips and shoulders too early into your x-step, which is contributing to you turning back around too soon which is robbing you of power. I think if you started your body rotation later, so that when you are coming up to your release point you can rotate back around more then instead of early which would give you more power.

If you do that and work on pulling more straight through on a line instead of pulling around your body, I think you'll be able to throw pretty far.

[BrotherDave]

^what they said, especially Mike's bit about getting ahead of the throw. Basically, from disc to shoulder you should feel a certain level of tautness like your towing the disc on a rope. The change in direction you make as you begin the actual throw (the right pec part) plus the tautness of the pull give you wrist extension and imparts the most energy into the throw. With you opening up too early, you're trying to play catch up with the pull, accelerating it too soon, and it's causing a disconnect of mistiming during the most important part of the throw, the hit.

The other big warning flag, is you're not finishing on plane for throwing a hyzer. The first 2-3 throws during vid #3 were your best, but for the most part your arm was flailing away and low instead of away and up. A lot of this is b/c you're not going into the hit right but footwork can hurt you too. When throwing hyzers, try and get over the disc more. You're getting your weight forward enough, which is good, now lean in more by planting your pivot foot more to the right.

[sidewinder22]

I mostly agree with everything above and will add that you are not getting good weight transfer being weight back and flat footed. Try not to let your left heel touch the ground. Although you would be best off learning from a standstill or a one step and working from the hit back. I see the hammer drills, snap 2009 thread/vid, and masterbeato vid from the technique sticky in your near future. With elbow chop, you basically want to get your elbow as close to the target as you can with your shoulders fairly parallel to the target. This also comes down to your shoulders opening early before your right foot is planted and you are trying to actively throw before the disc gets into power zone(chest/right pec) and there is no late acceleration. On your followthrough your right arm/elbow bends and wraps around your back, this is the result of no snap. With good snap the arm/elbow will come around straight and bounce back. Driving with neutral putters and mids will force you learn clean snap, and you will be surprised how far they will fly.

[Adontalis]

Thank you very much for your comments. I'm going to work with my buzzz, roc, and fairway drivers on this. Should I be using fan grip or power with these discs? As far as my fairway drivers (dx teebird, star teebird, and pro leopard) I have been using a power grip. The dx teebird and leopard are cranking anny for me. Is that too much arm and not enough snap?

[Adontalis]

New videos will be up on a couple days. Again, thank you all for your well thought out input.

[Adontalis]

Progress notes:

After watching the three videos, one being a series. I implemented the snap from snap 2009 and disced down to my mids and fairway drivers. I also worked my way back into an x step using masterbeato technique. I also took into account my weight transfer and shoulder angles.

Results:

I still think I am throwing a little off my back foot or not quite fully on my lead foot, however, my x step is much "springier" and only the balls of my left foot touch the ground on the second step instead of the entire foot. I'm not 100% consistent yet, however, I am impressed with how much each step adds to my distance. Also, my leopard out through my previous avg multiple times.

[dodgeball]

Most of the comments here seemed to be aimed at increasing his power, but he says that's not his problem. Rather he said that he's releasing anny when he's trying to hyzer and he's getting big S curves as a result. He pretty much self-diagnosed the problem in saying that he's dipping the right shoulder going into the hit. Isn't this a big part of it? I'd say work on figuring out your release angles a bit first. Practice throwing hyzer, anny, and level. Also, would the rest of you say he's using more of a Swedish style? I especially noticed it in the first video.

Thank you very much for your comments. I'm going to work with my buzzz, roc, and fairway drivers on this. Should I be using fan grip or power with these discs? As far as my fairway drivers (dx teebird, star teebird, and pro leopard) I have been using a power grip. The dx teebird and leopard are cranking anny for me. Is that too much arm and not enough snap?

Do u know what the fork or Climo grip is? A lot of players use this for all their discs, except when putting. If the teebird and leopard are the only discs that are turning, they could be just getting too beat. How do your mids fly?

[sidewinder22]

Most of the comments here seemed to be aimed at increasing his power, but he says that's not his problem. Rather he said that he's releasing anny when he's trying to hyzer and he's getting big S curves as a result. He pretty much self-diagnosed the problem in saying that he's dipping the right shoulder going into the hit. Isn't this a big part of it? I'd say work on figuring out your release angles a bit first. Practice throwing hyzer, anny, and level. Also, would the rest of you say he's using more of a Swedish style? I especially noticed it in the first video.

Do u know what the fork or Climo grip is? A lot of players use this for all their discs, except when putting. If the teebird and leopard are the only discs that are turning, they could be just getting too beat. How do your mids fly?

Snap/smash factor is the main problem and what he should really focus on first and then work from the hit back. Feeling the weight of the disc and throwing the weight. If there is a drastic distance difference from standstill to x-step then it typically means they are not getting snap and/or weight transfer and each step is just adding momentum to a strong arming. His x-step(run) is really fast for the distance he's getting and will most likely just hinder learning snap. The shoulder plane isn't terrible, but the elbow drops too low pulling through and too early along with the shoulders being too early. Maybe a little swedish, but I wouldn't really classify it other than not getting snap at this point.

[dodgeball]

Snap/smash factor is the main problem and what he should really focus on first and then work from the hit back. Feeling the weight of the disc and throwing the weight. If there is a drastic distance difference from standstill to x-step then it typically means they are not getting snap and/or weight transfer and each step is just adding momentum to a strong arming. His x-step(run) is really fast for the distance he's getting and will most likely just hinder learning snap. The shoulder plane isn't terrible, but the elbow drops too low pulling through and too early along with the shoulders being too early. Maybe a little swedish, but I wouldn't really classify it other than not getting snap at this point.

But working on the hit back won't address being off-plane or wrist roll, will it? And if he's getting out to 350 on occasion, I'd say he's getting at least some snap. Maybe that sounds pretty good to someone who only gets about 250' backhanded, lol.

[sidewinder22]

Progress notes:

After watching the three videos, one being a series. I implemented the snap from snap 2009 and disced down to my mids and fairway drivers. I also worked my way back into an x step using masterbeato technique. I also took into account my weight transfer and shoulder angles.

Results:

I still think I am throwing a little off my back foot or not quite fully on my lead foot, however, my x step is much "springier" and only the balls of my left foot touch the ground on the second step instead of the entire foot. I'm not 100% consistent yet, however, I am impressed with how much each step adds to my distance. Also, my leopard out through my previous avg multiple times.

Springier could be good or bad, and each step adding a lot of distance is typically bad. If you stand backwards and just step forward you should be able to hit 300' no problem with a fairway driver or mid. I would try to hit that before adding a full walking(not running) x-step. This may seem like taking a step backwards in distance for awhile, but it should be worth it to get good snap and weight transfer. It is temping especially playing/practicing on a course to keep the running x-step in the meantime for the insta distance, but can make it harder to really work toward improvements and good muscle memory. Your back foot(toes) can still be on the ground and get weight forward so your chin is over front foot at the hit.

[sidewinder22]

But working on the hit back won't address being off-plane or wrist roll, will it? And if he's getting out to 350 on occasion, I'd say he's getting at least some snap. Maybe that sounds pretty good to someone who only gets about 250' backhanded, lol.

I wouldn't really consider 350' on occasion, snap, especially with a destroyer, it typically just means he got the nose down of those throws with a strong arm. Now throwing a Gazelle 350' with less effort is decent snap. Anyone with decent snap will not finish followthrough with a bent elbow around the back. (Don't try to fix the elbow followthrough...its just a result of no snap) Discing down to neutral putters/mids forces you learn clean snap. Working from the hit back helps learn proper weight transfer.

[Adontalis]

Due to it being very wet here and my shoulder being tired after a LOT of throwing the past couple days, I'm resting today. However, I am still reading this thread and taking everything into account.

Weight transfer is probably the hardest thing for me right now. When I try to get forward and on top of the disc, I throw it into the ground in front of me. :-(

I am however getting my leopard and teebirds out past 300 now. About 280 with one step. Buzz SS and roc are about 10-15 feet behind those. Most of my discs are brand new so I not worried about them being worn.

[sidewinder22]

Sounds like some good progress and make sure you stretch and rest and don't hurt your shoulder. I try not to field practice multiple days in a row because I often begin to lose distance after a while. After getting a few days rest I typically come back and start throwing further. I think weight transfer is the hardest part, and depending on how much you transfer can change your trajectory quite a bit. You may want to play around with changing your grip/nose orientation and pull lines. Think the lawn mower pull, to help get more level or upward trajectory.

[Adontalis]

I have not hears of the fork or climo grips. What are they? What purpose do they serve?

[Adontalis]

Also, I was wondering if the next time I upload videos, would it help if I added videos taken from behind/rear?

[sidewinder22]

I have not hears of the fork or climo grips. What are they? What purpose do they serve?
I use the modified power grip for most everything. Grip often comes down to whatever you are comfortable with, but the most important part is to pinch between the index and thumb and nose down orientation in relation to the forearm.
http://www.discgolfreview.com/resources/articles/gripittoripit.shtml

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[sidewinder22]

Also, I was wondering if the next time I upload videos, would it help if I added videos taken from behind/rear?

Yes, the more the better, I prefer rear view when only using one view.

[neocenturion]

One note is that your practice strokes are all wrong. You don't move your shoulders an inch. It's very difficult to take a practice stroke like that, then make a good actual throw. I suggest making sure during practice strokes that you get your hips and shoulders turned just like you would during a real throw so you have the feel right before you go into your runup. That said, I also agree with everything the posters above me have said.

[Adontalis]

I'm thinking of picking up 5 discs that are exactly the same so I can work on the hit backwards. I think this will help me because I don't have to think about differences in the discs and their flight mechanics. I was thinking of a nuetral mid. Any suggestions?

[sidewinder22]

Z Comet.

[Adontalis]

If I might ask, why that disc over any other?

[jrawk]

Comets have a slow, neutral flight path that will accentuate any flaw in your throw:

Off axis torque - wobble like a mofo
Over torque - turn and burn/roll
No snap - falls very short
Nose up - Hyzer stall

When thrown correctly, you know it. With good snap, level, and smooth the comet will fly on a straight, slow line 250+ effortlessly. It'll also hold a hyzer line and anhyzer line until it comes to rest.

[Adontalis]

What weight should I get?

[sidewinder22]

170-180g.

[Adontalis]

After weighing them on a gram scale, I now have a 175, 176, and a 177 z comet. I have noticed from my form practice that my draw has become much better. I am also seeing that I drop my elbow in the hit which causes my wrist to break resulting in an anhyzer release.

[Adontalis]

Practice has been humbling. I only get about 175 feet from a standstill no reachback throw. I take it this means I am not snapping the disc. I'm not sure how to put any more on it. Very frustrating. Any ideas? Would more videos help?

On the up side, my lines are getting much better.

[sidewinder22]

Depends if you are using your shoulders and hips to reachback. It should feel like you are slinging the disc. This may help:
http://ripsychotherapy.com/pdf/RightPecDrill.pdf

[Adontalis]

This link is extremely helpful, however I was talking about no reachback. I get the 175 feet from just shifting my weight from back foot to front. The disc starts on my pec. There is no reachback.