extreme tunnel drive

[duckychucky]

On my newly re-designed course I put an extremely narrow and long tunnel drive from one
of the gold level tees. Its about 6-7 ft wide and opens up about 120ft down the tunnel.
Is this a fair drive for gold level players?
Sorry no pics right now(I'll get one later).
I'm not gold level but I have made it out (once after unloading my bag 3 times).
I imagine pro level players can throw a stable disc totally straight this far before it fades.
Am I wrong?
The "tunnel" walls are jack pines planted in straight rows, with no underbrush at all,
so if you don't make it out, the disc kicks out in random directions and will land in the
wider open lanes on each side, usually giving you a fair 2nd shot.
Anyone have any examples of other extreme tunnel drives like this?

[chrishysell]

I would confidently throw a forehand roller.

[bradharris]

This kind of sounds like hole 7 at Westover Park (http://www.dgcoursereview.com/media.php?id=786&mode=media&view=hole&hole=7&page=1). At least with that one, there's a wider option to the right.

Personally I don't like holes like this because luck comes into play way too much. As narrow as it is, it doesn't take much of a mistake to get a bad kick. Once you get off that dead straight line, it's a toss-up as to how bad the end result will be. There's potential for a slight miss to be punished severely while a bad griplock may end up in an okay spot depending on how it kicks.

If there's an alternate option, the tunnel shot then becomes a nice risk/reward opportunity. But if that's the only route, I think it's unfair for any level.

[chrishysell]

This kind of sounds like hole 7 at Westover Park (http://www.dgcoursereview.com/media.php?id=786&mode=media&view=hole&hole=7&page=1). At least with that one, there's a wider option to the right.

Personally I don't like holes like this because luck comes into play way too much. As narrow as it is, it doesn't take much of a mistake to get a bad kick. Once you get off that dead straight line, it's a toss-up as to how bad the end result will be. There's potential for a slight miss to be punished severely while a bad griplock may end up in an okay spot depending on how it kicks.

If there's an alternate option, the tunnel shot then becomes a nice risk/reward opportunity. But if that's the only route, I think it's unfair for any level.

This hole has a fairly wide fairway in the 15-20ft range.

I would much rather test my skill on tighter courses than to just go throw on driving ranges.

[Aim For The Chains]

more like 10' feet wide but 400+ long with OB just past the tree line on the left and mix of rough to the right. Good hole and everyone needs to learn to throw straight :)

http://www.dgcoursereview.com/course_pics/1022/bea7a9cb.jpg

[bradharris]

This hole has a fairly wide fairway in the 15-20ft range.

True. It's more of a "split the wickets" shot than a tunnel. But it's the closest comparison I could think of without thinking too hard...

I would much rather test my skill on tighter courses than to just go throw on driving ranges.

Agreed. I hate wide open holes, they're boring. However, I think the hole described by the OP is a bit unfair in competition. It sounds like more of a get-out-of-trouble type shot rather than a fair tee shot. I think an alternate, safer but longer route would make it a great hole. You have a safe option where you can consistently expect par. Or you have the tight option where a good shot gives you a likely birdie but you risk having to take a bogey or worse if you miss by even a little.

[Aim For The Chains]

and Brekke park is basically designed through the pines like you are stating. Which is more a beginner course but lots of fun and super technical as you have to hit the lines.. much better than open fields! good luck with your course and from gold level anything is welcome :p

http://www.dgcoursereview.com/course_pics/2946/d8c93fd3.jpg

[Aim For The Chains]

True. It's more of a "split the wickets" shot than a tunnel. But it's the closest comparison I could think of without thinking too hard...



Agreed. I hate wide open holes, they're boring. However, I think the hole described by the OP is a bit unfair in competition. It sounds like more of a get-out-of-trouble type shot rather than a fair tee shot. I think an alternate, safer but longer route would make it a great hole. You have a safe option where you can consistently expect par. Or you have the tight option where a good shot gives you a likely birdie but you risk having to take a bogey or worse if you miss by even a little.

If you get outside the pines he said it is easy upshot... its not BRP #4 where you feel in jail. Good hole IMO specially for a gold level player.

[bradharris]

If you get outside the pines he said it is easy upshot... its not BRP #4 where you feel in jail. Good hole IMO specially for a gold level player.

I guess my reading comprehension is off today...

I reread it, I see that now. I'll retract my previous statements, it could be an interesting hole. I'd love to see pics.

[Aim For The Chains]

I guess my reading comprehension is off today...

I reread it, I see that now. I'll retract my previous statements, it could be an interesting hole. I'd love to see pics.

:hfive: I agree though that if it is a pine tree jail then really not that fun... Almost need to throw a provisional just to get a decent score depending where your disc can kick off into... We have a few holes like that around here with the woods and brush so thick you would never be able to throw out let alone hardly get your disc!

Even BRP has about 4-5 feet before the ob you an throw a nice forehand or anhyzer if you make it through the trees and park it next to the basket... Options are always good vs feeling like you are being raped by the hole.

[chrishysell]

:hfive: I agree though that if it is a pine tree jail then really not that fun... Almost need to throw a provisional just to get a decent score depending where your disc can kick off into... We have a few holes like that around here with the woods and brush so thick you would never be able to throw out let alone hardly get your disc!

Even BRP has about 4-5 feet before the ob you an throw a nice forehand or anhyzer if you make it through the trees and park it next to the basket... Options are always good vs feeling like you are being raped by the hole.

.....Almost need to throw a provisional just to get a decent score depending where your disc can kick off into.....

you lost me here. How will the provisional help you get a decent score?

[Steve West]

How long is the hole?

[CwAlbino]

I would confidently throw a forehand roller.

this.

[duckychucky]

400 ft

[Peterb]

400ft and 6-7 feet wide is not a fairway. Make the hole 250 and it is much more fair for everyone.

[duckychucky]

Read the OP, the 7 foot wide tunnel off the drive is 120 ft. The rest of the 400ft hole opens up alot.
That is why my question is -"can a gold level player negotiate a 7 ft wide 120 ft long tunnel?"

[duckychucky]

The tunnel looks a lot like that second pic posted, just a little narrower and longer,
so you can "putt" off the tee box into the wide lane next to the tunnel and still have a chance for par,
but the clearing the tunnel is the only hope for birdie.
There is also 3 other tees to choose from, so I'm not trying to be fair to everyone, just to gold players.

[ferretdance03]

Read the OP, the 7 foot wide tunnel off the drive is 120 ft. The rest of the 400ft hole opens up alot.
That is why my question is -"can a gold level player negotiate a 7 ft wide 120 ft long tunnel?"

I think gold level players could navigate that tunnel, although I think pictures would help.

I'm imagining most players would throw a control shot out of the tunnel, approach and putt for a routine three. I'm sure there would be a few drives that make it out of the tunnel unscathed and produce birdies, and a few that careen into the schule and require pitch out bogies, but I don't envision a lot of score separation.

[Steve West]

If it is truly a 6' gap (you measured it?), then only 12% of Gold players will be able to drive out of the tunnel. 14% for a 7' gap.

I don't think that is tempting enough.

[Danger]

Here is a 400 foot long, slightly downhill tunnel. That diagonal branch is almost halfway down this un-fairway:
http://www.dgcoursereview.com/course_pics/3292/f61cedda.jpg

[solomon.trenton]

Read the OP, the 7 foot wide tunnel off the drive is 120 ft. The rest of the 400ft hole opens up alot.
That is why my question is -"can a gold level player negotiate a 7 ft wide 120 ft long tunnel?"

with a good drive yes. i would just toss my ft roc

[duckychucky]

Its actually 8 ft wide and I'm shortening the end of the tunnel so you are out after 100 ft.
Steve, can you run that thru your disc golf super computer and give me the odds?

[Doupie620]

Captain...I theorized an 27.3658972% chance of you getting a straight answer. :|

[whitechocolate]

...Is this a fair drive for gold level players?...


Yes, it is fair. They all have to play from the same tee.

I am a REC player and I could throw a forehand roller through that. It adds a different challenge. If you had 9 of these holes, then you may have a problem with the masses. That hole, people will like it or hate it, not a lot of inbetweens. Then they will move on to the next hole.

[sidewinder22]

Sounds similar to Codorus CC hole #3, the vid below is shot from the short tee and it narrows it down to about 4ft wide before opening up some and then narrows back down to maybe 6ft wide rows toward the basket. From the long tee its 6-7ft wide fairway most the way to the 4ft gap which is probably 140' or so.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-kA9FSBrxXg#t=1m0s

[optidiscic]

I am not very good but I think 8 ft and just 100 feet is quite fair.....100 feet is just 33 meters....The challenge is in the decision-making to max out the drive or to play it safe and get 250-300 ft of controlled D and then upshot-putt and get a 3 versus risking the 375 drive and putt birdie that could easily end up being a disaster.....Don't dare punk out the design....players will bitch and bitch and bitch until they hit the line or figure out how to play the hole...then they will say "Oh man what a great risk/reward hole it's awesome"

I've designed far tougher holes.....my mantra is always to design holes that demand some type of execution to birdie and a safe way to get par. Bogeys are for mistakes and Birdies should be rewards. Pooching out of a 100 foot tunnel is easy and allows for a par.....driving out full throttle gives a chance at birdie...I say you are on the right track

[chickenonabun]

This hole sounds completley fair, and yes I could probably even make it out of a 8 feet wide by 100 long tunnel ( and If I had a rating it would only probbaly be in the low 900's)

[ferretdance03]

Sounds similar to Codorus CC hole #3, the vid below is shot from the short tee and it narrows it down to about 4ft wide before opening up some and then narrows back down to maybe 6ft wide rows toward the basket. From the long tee its 6-7ft wide fairway most the way to the 4ft gap which is probably 140' or so.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-kA9FSBrxXg#t=1m0s
This hole came to mind when I read the OP as well. I took a drop in 3 from the pro tee at the Autumn Open throwing a Comet off the tee.

I've heard lots of bitching about the hole, but the consensus seems to be that it's only one hole on the course, throw a controlled shot and move on. And I think the fairway is fair, it's just tight. A standstill putter is easy enough to throw straight down the gut, you just have to commit to it.

[New013]

i agree on the roller

[Steve West]

Its actually 8 ft wide and I'm shortening the end of the tunnel so you are out after 100 ft.
Steve, can you run that thru your disc golf super computer and give me the odds?

One out of five can drive out. Maybe one out of four can pitch out.

[optidiscic]

Steve I disagree with your statistical data. No offense but gold level players in my region would get out far more often than 20%. I get through half the time and I'm a lowly AM

[Menacewarf]

One out of five can drive out. Maybe one out of four can pitch out.

Some of the issue is many of the red dots on the right side of the graph would be considered successful shots on an 8' wide tunnel. Down the fairway is the goal on such a hole. Whether one lands within 4 feet of an invisible line going down the middle of the tunnel is much less relevant.

[duckychucky]

Thanks for sharing that graph Steve!
I'm certainly not making my decision strictly on the graph but I think that it is really cool.
Can you do that with curving fairways too?

The tee is staying put. Thanks for the input everyone!
The gold tees on this course are all tests of your ability to shape different lines,
(tight doglegs, narrow gaps, s-turns, etc...) with this being one of the toughest.
With the option to play 3 easier tees with wider fairways, I don't think it's unfair.

[DiscGolfer947]

One out of five can drive out. Maybe one out of four can pitch out.

Where do you get these graphs made?

[solomon.trenton]

If it is truly a 6' gap (you measured it?), then only 12% of Gold players will be able to drive out of the tunnel. 14% for a 7' gap.

I don't think that is tempting enough.

One out of five can drive out. Maybe one out of four can pitch out.

where do you make up this data and what is that graph supposed to show?

[Steve West]

Where do you get these graphs made?

http://stevewestdiscgolf.com/ThrowSimulator.aspx (http://stevewestdiscgolf.com/ThrowSimulator.aspx)

Steve I disagree with your statistical data. No offense but gold level players in my region would get out far more often than 20%. I get through half the time and I'm a lowly AM

You can't argue with data. Unless you have other data. I hope you do.

You CAN argue that it isn't relavent. In fact, I'll do that for you, because no statistics should be presented without the proper caveats – something I left out of my other post by mistake.

I don't have any data on how the disc travels at 100 feet when thrown by gold players. I don't know of any.

What I do have is data on where drives land, and how often players can get aces from various distances. And what I gave is the best estimate I can come up with by using these two sets of data.

By using the accuracy of the drives (and some second- and third-shots) I measured, and assuming a straight flight, I can calculate how far right or left of the desired line a drive was at 100 feet. I simulated many drives and counted how many were within 4 feet (minus a disc radius) of the center of the desired direction of flight.

Now, I know discs curve. However, gold players also know that discs curve. For throws that will curve left, they compensate right, and vice versa. So, the data tells me how many degrees right or left they threw compared to the direction they wanted the disc to go.

These players also know that the first part of a drive's flight is more of a straight line, and they can adjust their throw so the desired direction of flight is to the middle of the gap, instead of out where it will glide back onto the middle of the fairway.

The weakness I see is that some of the inaccuracy of where drives land is due to factors that happen after the disc is released, and after the first 100 feet of flight, and which are unpredictable by the player. Thus, the accuracy of getting out of a tunnel could be better than the accuracy of landing a drive. So, my numbers should be viewed as minimums.

As for the pitch-outs, I can only interpolate how accurate gold players are on throws other than drives. I presume it is in-between the accuracy measured on long drives and the accuracy measured when trying for an ace, so that is what I used.

Some of the issue is many of the red dots on the right side of the graph would be considered successful shots on an 8' wide tunnel. Down the fairway is the goal on such a hole. Whether one lands within 4 feet of an invisible line going down the middle of the tunnel is much less relevant.

First, it shows the discs that land within about 2 degrees of the line running down the middle of the fairway. (Not within 4 feet).

However, you are correct that the picture does not actually show the throws that would have been successful. It shows a set of throws that are as numerous as those that would have been successful, assuming that a Gold player's ability to get a disc to land within 2 degrees of a line is the same as that player's ability to throw a disc within 2 degrees of a direction.

[Menacewarf]

2 degrees or eight feet the point remains the same. As the disc moves down the fairway the probability of remaining in a narrow corridor drastically decreases. Many very good shots will be outside tolerance. Also I don't think it is a safe assumption that discs on a line remain on that line in terms of where they settle. Even "gold level".

[1978]

No one complains about the "gauntlet" #13 at Hornet's nest. All major pro's play here for tournaments and average below par.

239' ... probably 120' or more to the opening when it widens out. Just a mid or putter for most pro's.

http://www.dgcoursereview.com/course_pics/176/acfe4cd8.jpg?rand=1499

So, I don't think your hole is bad, similar or worse are tolerated elsewhere.