Designer Advice for Public Parks

[BionicRib]

I am looking for some insight from those with more experience then myself about the do's and don'ts when dealing with a park district staff that is new to disc golf.........Brief overview..........18 holes are already in but the design is a little rough around the edges, the biggest reason for this is the park district's head person doesn't want to disrupt other fields and areas that are occassionally used for other programs. As of now the course is (in my opinion a 2.5 on dgcr) There is potential for 4 or 5 legitimate par 4's........How do you convince people to go along with turning a pitch and putt into a borderline championship course.................Any insight.....links.....or wise opinions are welcome......Thanks alot!.........(this is a public park that is very busy.....walking path's, picnic areas):confused:

[mashnut]

As tempting as it can be, it's always a better plan to avoid conflicts with other park uses. We're at the bottom of the totem pole, so when soccer or football moms complain about disc golfers you're the one who loses that battle. We recently had a course pulled for several months near here because it conflicts with walking paths and fields that are used for other programs and checkers were unwilling to play it safe or skip holes.

[BionicRib]

I agree completely, I guess I'm looking for those "keywords"....when it comes to negotiating "prime real estate" in the park.

[optidiscic]

give up on the championship high par concept.....you have to think about spray zones of the worst possible players on the worst possible day with the worst possible conditions and imagine people in places you just cant imagine them being.
We could all design par 72 courses if we had the land and space to do so safely.......scale it down and keep the drives under 300 feet....Don't ever throw in the direction that people may ever be....ever. I am having trouble now with some phone call about some kids almost getting hit. I think they impulsively saw the basket didnt know what it was and ran to it...thinking it was a piece of playground equipment. This is my only theory how or why they would have ran into the fairway...anyway despite me pissing off local disc golfers and designing the safest possible layout...due to being in a public park theres always gonna be a conflict...do yourself a favor and scale it down......you can always keep those crazy long tee positions in mind just keep them unmarked and use them for tournaments with experienced players and spotters keeping watch. Don't ever assume beginners or "chuckers" have common sense because they don't and will get your course pulled.

[#19325]

I am looking for some insight from those with more experience then myself about the do's and don'ts when dealing with a park district staff that is new to disc golf.........Brief overview..........18 holes are already in but the design is a little rough around the edges, the biggest reason for this is the park district's head person doesn't want to disrupt other fields and areas that are occassionally used for other programs. As of now the course is (in my opinion a 2.5 on dgcr) There is potential for 4 or 5 legitimate par 4's........How do you convince people to go along with turning a pitch and putt into a borderline championship course.................Any insight.....links.....or wise opinions are welcome......Thanks alot!.........(this is a public park that is very busy.....walking path's, picnic areas):confused:

Give them a link to the course and let them read the reviews. Hopefully you have a higher rated course nearby. Park districts are competitive. Tell them to hire an experienced course designer to make the changes.

[jhgonzo]

give up on the championship high par concept.....you have to think about spray zones of the worst possible players on the worst possible day with the worst possible conditions and imagine people in places you just cant imagine them being.
We could all design par 72 courses if we had the land and space to do so safely.......scale it down and keep the drives under 300 feet....Don't ever throw in the direction that people may ever be....ever. I am having trouble now with some phone call about some kids almost getting hit. I think they impulsively saw the basket didnt know what it was and ran to it...thinking it was a piece of playground equipment. This is my only theory how or why they would have ran into the fairway...anyway despite me pissing off local disc golfers and designing the safest possible layout...due to being in a public park theres always gonna be a conflict...do yourself a favor and scale it down......you can always keep those crazy long tee positions in mind just keep them unmarked and use them for tournaments with experienced players and spotters keeping watch. Don't ever assume beginners or "chuckers" have common sense because they don't and will get your course pulled.

So yeah, you should probably get to work on that Disc Golf Bible pretty soon...:thmbup:

[BionicRib]

I personally don't agree with the idea of scaling things down......although i do see where you are coming from opti.....This land has potential for a better course than what is existing. Some people from where I am from think that a pitch and putt is ok because it appeals to the "majority" (and I use this term lightly) of lower skilled disc golfers. I personally don't agree........I live in Illinois (northern)and I know that people in this state are working very hard to better the courses that we have......but lets be honest........outside of a couple courses in the Joliet area and a 2 hour drive to Lemon Lake, northern illinois simply put does not have any difficult courses, its all about how do I get a deuce when you step up to the tee pad and I am tired of it..........I'm sorry to vent and I apologize if I offend anyone who has put in volunteer work or even designed a course in northern illinois...........I'm looking for insight from the ones that have designed champion level courses and had a park worker look at them like they were crazy when they pitched the idea of designing a 500ft+ hole. Thanks guys

[BionicRib]

Again I apologize for the comments about northern illinois disc golf I do not mean to offend anyone, but its time for a change (in my opinion) I'm just tired of driving so far to play a great course......I've seen what is going on at Idlewild, the Charlotte area, Minnesota twin cities area, Wisconsin and I guess I'm just wondering what steps were taken there to achieve these types of courses.

[optidiscic]

The Best championship courses are not set in a multi use area of a park. You said the area traverses walking trails and a multi use park. I'm confused. The great courses you mention are not near other parkgoers. Those great courses took the imagination of someone traversing unused raw land and visualizing a course. Often in unused or unuseable areas of a park.

[BionicRib]

Sorry I'm going of on a tangent, I am merely frusterated with the limited amount of legitimate par 4s in the chicago area..........I can count on two hands how many par 4's we have in the many courses we have. We need a course to set the bar so the rest can start to follow suit.

[MacDaddy]

The Best championship courses are not set in a multi use area of a park. You said the area traverses walking trails and a multi use park. I'm confused. The great courses you mention are not near other parkgoers. Those great courses took the imagination of someone traversing unused raw land and visualizing a course. Often in unused or unuseable areas of a park.

This is exactly correct. The multi-use park area where disc golf is the johnny-come-lately will have to be the rec/intermediate level park course (you can still tweek it to optimize the fun factor). The championship level course should be away from other activities. In fact, the better our equipment gets, and the better our players get, the more it demands that the courses of this type will be pay-to-play at some level. If you need and demand that courses use larger areas of land and provide more amenities, there has to be some type of payment to keep it going. :popcorn:

[Stud Muffin]

This is exactly correct. The multi-use park area where disc golf is the johnny-come-lately will have to be the rec/intermediate level park course (you can still tweek it to optimize the fun factor). The championship level course should be away from other activities. In fact, the better our equipment gets, and the better our players get, the more it demands that the courses of this type will be pay-to-play at some level. If you need and demand that courses use larger areas of land and provide more amenities, there has to be some type of payment to keep it going. :popcorn:

I got an idea.
How about the city use tax payer money to buy the baskets, land donated or set aside for public use, and the park maintenance crew cuts the grass, while volunteers do the little things that makes parks great.

Wait... what would the money be used for then? :popcorn:

[deBebbler]

.....you have to think about spray zones of the worst possible players on the worst possible day with the worst possible conditions and imagine people in places you just cant imagine them being.

Don't ever assume beginners or "chuckers" have common sense because they don't and will get your course pulled.

^^this

Look at each hole and think of the sh!ttiest throws you can concieve. If the hole can absorb the throw without endangering anyone, keep it; otherwise ditch it and look elsewhere.

Whatever terrible throw you think of will be 'bested' by someone in reality.

If you want some challenging distances but lack the land, you could go with three challenging tees and fewer holes. If the design is quality, you won't mind repeating them from different tee sets.

[MacDaddy]

I got an idea.
How about the city use tax payer money to buy the baskets, land donated or set aside for public use, and the park maintenance crew cuts the grass, while volunteers do the little things that makes parks great.

Wait... what would the money be used for then? :popcorn:

Everybody's got their hand out. The city/county/state should buy me this, or buy me that. The facts are that the vast majority of govts have had their budgets cut, parks departments especially, and some by large amounts. Programs cancelled, facilities closed and employees let go. I put in 6 new courses this year and only one of them was "fully paid for" by the parks dept, and only 1 other had ANY cash in the game. The rest were all paid for by private funding.

Every other sport you can think of pays their own way with some sort of dues, fees, etc. But disc golfers think they are special and everything is "free". HA! Wake up and smell the budget cuts. If you want a championship caliber disc golf course and the things that go with it, then you should pay for it, plain and simple. Everybody wants more disc golf on TV, in the schools, blah, blah, blah. So who is going to do it? Having disc golf "pros" implies by definition that someone is making money doing it. If your course pro, truely is, then he should be our there teaching and running a pro shop and maintianing the course. And that costs money. There are lots of vendors that operate various activites on govt land, disc golf should be doing it too.

I am NOT saying that all courses should be pay-to-play. That would be insane, and cut off the flow of new players into the game. But the upper end of disc golf has to realize that the free ride is over and start pulling their own weight. And if all the stuff we have been preaching over the years about disc golf being green and low cost are true, then it shouldn't be a problem. :popcorn:

[Thumber]

I am NOT saying that all courses should be pay-to-play. That would be insane, and cut off the flow of new players into the game. But the upper end of disc golf has to realize that the free ride is over and start pulling their own weight. And if all the stuff we have been preaching over the years about disc golf being green and low cost are true, then it shouldn't be a problem. :popcorn:

I agree with you that DG isn't free. I do wonder how it is that no ball golf courses are free and yet they get new people all the time.

The myth that DG is free is just that, a myth. If you are playing for free and not having to do any maintenance then your course is being subsidized from somewhere else. Likely the public purse.

Pay 2 play is the future of our sport and the only model with any sort of sustainability worked into it.

[scarpfish]

Everybody's got their hand out. The city/county/state should buy me this, or buy me that. The facts are that the vast majority of govts have had their budgets cut, parks departments especially, and some by large amounts. Programs cancelled, facilities closed and employees let go. I put in 6 new courses this year and only one of them was "fully paid for" by the parks dept, and only 1 other had ANY cash in the game. The rest were all paid for by private funding.

Every other sport you can think of pays their own way with some sort of dues, fees, etc. But disc golfers think they are special and everything is "free". HA! Wake up and smell the budget cuts. If you want a championship caliber disc golf course and the things that go with it, then you should pay for it, plain and simple. Everybody wants more disc golf on TV, in the schools, blah, blah, blah. So who is going to do it? Having disc golf "pros" implies by definition that someone is making money doing it. If your course pro, truely is, then he should be our there teaching and running a pro shop and maintianing the course. And that costs money. There are lots of vendors that operate various activites on govt land, disc golf should be doing it too.

I am NOT saying that all courses should be pay-to-play. That would be insane, and cut off the flow of new players into the game. But the upper end of disc golf has to realize that the free ride is over and start pulling their own weight. And if all the stuff we have been preaching over the years about disc golf being green and low cost are true, then it shouldn't be a problem. :popcorn:

^ THIS :thmbup:

[BionicRib]

Well put Mac Daddy.......pay to play is the future, but a lot of those who have "been around" for a while are strongly against pay to play. "Disc golf should be free" is what I hear a lot from people in my area........I firmly believe that right now we are on the precipice of pay to play becoming main stream. For those of you who have developed or are developing these types of courses.......Keep on pushing..........Pay to play (only if the course is worthy) is the way to go!!!!



On a side note about those who complain about parks that need work or need a new design etc etc.....Get out there and make it happen. It seems that disc golf has a lot of critics who just sit on the sideline. Because the sport is so new people need to realize that courses don't get put up for nothing.......(even crappy courses cost money and time).....and if they don't generate any sort of revenue maintenance also costs money and time.............................................. .....................Stop complaining and do something about it!!!!

[MacDaddy]

Disc golf should be free. And disc golf should be pay-to-play. They both need each other to grow. The free, 9-hole rec courses that need to be scattered everywhere, feed into the larger, fewer (still free) 18-hole public courses that are pretty much the standard of today. But then there needs to be a class of courses that are large enough (par 4 and 5 holes, 27+ holes) that are pay-to-play. These courses can support pro shops, offer merchandise, food and beverages and will be more attactive to more mainstream companies (food and beverage, clothing) to sponsor disc golf.

And hey, if I can go play on a purpose dedicated, championship caliber disc golf course, get a burger and a beer while I play, and do it for a $5/day greens fee? Sign me up! :hfive:

[DiscGolfer947]

Disc golf should be free. And disc golf should be pay-to-play. They both need each other to grow. The free, 9-hole rec courses that need to be scattered everywhere, feed into the larger, fewer (still free) 18-hole public courses that are pretty much the standard of today. But then there needs to be a class of courses that are large enough (par 4 and 5 holes, 27+ holes) that are pay-to-play. These courses can support pro shops, offer merchandise, food and beverages and will be more attactive to more mainstream companies (food and beverage, clothing) to sponsor disc golf.

And hey, if I can go play on a purpose dedicated, championship caliber disc golf course, get a burger and a beer while I play, and do it for a $5/day greens fee? Sign me up! :hfive:

BINGO!:thmbup: