Par 4's in Illinois?

[BionicRib]

Just trying a little experiment..........if you drew a line from about 20 miles north of Peoria IL and (from the east side of the state to the west) from that line up to the top of the state, how many legitimate par 4 disc golf holes does this area of the state have.............here is my quick ten minutes of thinking list......

1. Highland Park (joliet) hole 4 (long tee) (close to a tweener in my opinion)
2. Highland Park hole 15 (long pad)?.....(can see arguments for a tweener)
3. Highland Park hole 9 (long pad).......(can see arguments for a tweener)
4. Shady Oaks Streamwood hole 15
5. Fairfield Park hole 18 (i think its 18 the 852 footer)
6 Madison Meadows hole 19 long pad
7. Madison Meadows hole 11 (along the baseball fields) but I think thats a tweener
8. Anna Page (can't remember the hole but I think there is atleast one out there
9. Channahon hole 9 (long pad)
10. West Chicago hole 16 (blue and white)
11. West Chicago hole 12 (blue and white)
12. West Chicago hole 8 (maybe just white?)
13. Marengo (2 of them and I don't remember the numbers)
.........Can you think of more........or argue to take some of mine away......Either way they are pretty sparce in these parts.......try to think of legitimate par 4's not tweeners........ready go

[steveo69]

14. Lippold hole 11 511'
15-21. gray fox hole's 3, 7, 12, 14, 15, 17, 18

[Dave242]

Grey Fox is in WI

[Jukeshoe]

I wouldn't count any of the Highland holes as Par 4's.

[steveo69]

Grey Fox is in WI

ya but when I can almost spit and hit IL its good enough for me.

[steveo69]

willow stream hole 1 and 8.
bevier park hole 11

[optidiscic]

we have no shortage here.....but my guess is players in Illinois have mastered the short game and putting. These are the foundation of DG and my guess would be these players do quite well in Majors

[Scared_Discless]

Why would you think that Highland Park #15 is a par 4?
Angle of attack? It's in a tough spot and there are a lot of 4's thrown but the hole is only 360+/- feet.

Did you by chance mean #17? It's listed as 525' but it plays longer than that.

[RPS2012]

we have no shortage here.....but my guess is players in Illinois have mastered the short game and putting. These are the foundation of DG and my guess would be these players do quite well in Majors

dang i wish i have mastered my short game and putting lol. Everyone calls me McOverthrow in the club im in haha

[Scared_Discless]

14. Lippold hole 11 511'
15-21. gray fox hole's 3, 7, 12, 14, 15, 17, 18

#18 at Silver Fox is easily one of the Top 5 prettiest holes I've ever played. I really like that course.

[peabody]

Mokena has 22 par 4's and one par 5. Mabey not deservedly(sp)

[RPS2012]

oh and number 7 at trinity could be a 4 from both the shorts and the longs

[Jukeshoe]

Why would you think that Highland Park #15 is a par 4?
Angle of attack? It's in a tough spot and there are a lot of 4's thrown but the hole is only 360+/- feet.

Did you by chance mean #17? It's listed as 525' but it plays longer than that.

I agree that #17 plays long, but it's still only a Par 3. I mean, it's mostly flat and wide open with the treeline to the left.

To me, par 4's need to have defined landing zones, significant length, and/ or tight tunnel fairways.

I don't think any hole at Highland is a true par 4.

[BionicRib]

there are IMO 3 holes that are borderline par 4's at highland. hole 15 at highland is shorter but you are playing up about 70 ft (give or take i think more on the give side) of elevation. The big arms have the potential to get up there (the route is a bit crazy/local IMO). There are a lot of arguments about what exactly it takes to make a hole a par 4 or 5. I would say hole 17 at highland is easier than hole 15....distance of a hole IMO doesn't always justify it being a par 4 or not........there is a hole in the Valley in Minnesota (I believe its only 200 ft) shaped like a horseshoe that is a legitimate par 4......

[ecpenguin]

Hole 18 at Northwood Park in Morton, IL is 660 ft. It's right on the edge there.

Hole 18 at McNaughton in Pekin, IL is 849 ft, which I consider legit Par 4.

[BionicRib]

haven't played the new trinity layout

[peabody]

Hole Number 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9
Red Tee 235 300 220 297 265 285 240 270 420
White Tee 265 300 305 297 265 315 240 270 490
Blue Tee 290 370 360 318 330 380 280 270 550
Par 4 4 3 4 4 4 4 4 5
2.
3.
1.
Out
2532
2747
3148
36
4.
Hole Number 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18
Red Tee 320 250 230 300 240 260 240 230 310
White Tee 435 375 230 365 240 280 240 230 420
Blue Tee 560 450 275 405 310 280 240 230 460
Par 4 4 3 4 4 4 4 4 4
2.
3.
1.
Out
2380
2815
3210
35
4.
Hole Number 19 20 21 22 23 25 26 27 Out Total
Red Tee 210 225 230 220 310 250 275 265 2273 7185
White Tee 210 225 230 312 310 250 275 265 2365 7927
Blue Tee 210 225 230 312 310 250 310 315 2482 8840
Par 3 4 4 3 4 4 4 4 34 105
1.
2.
3.
24
288
288
320
4
4.
Mokena Community Park District
10925 La Porte Road, Mokena
708-479-1020
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A
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A
T
P
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K
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F
F
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[BionicRib]

pekin and morton are below the line.........think north of peoria to the top of the state

[Jukeshoe]

haven't played the new trinity layout

I haven't either, was out there as they were putting the new tees in. Saw the layout. :thmbup:

[BionicRib]

thats just Mokena parks posting pars for the chuckers.........I don't think there are any par 4's out there....Maybe one hole is borderline

[Scared_Discless]

Mokena has 22 par 4's and one par 5. Mabey not deservedly(sp)

That's posted par sir...

I love hearing people talk about how great they are because they throw -15 under par everytime they play The Oaks. That -15 under is still a 90 on a 27 hole course.

[optidiscic]

what pisses me off is for all the bitching you illini guys do about lack of longer courses...you have a ton of active members on this site....my neck of the woods....lots of par 4s and not many on dgcr...lol

[Three Putt]

West Chicago #8 & #12 only have the distance to claim a par 4. Hole #16 I'd give a legit par 4 to; I liked that hole a lot.

[ecpenguin]

what pisses me off is for all the bitching you illini guys do about lack of longer courses...you have a ton of active members on this site....my neck of the woods....lots of par 4s and not many on dgcr...lol

Move to Illinois, problem solved!

[BionicRib]

not that its right, but at Illinois State they recognized (and correct me if I am wrong) 3 holes that were par 4's at Highland. If I had to lean towards one hole in particular I would say hole 4 from the longs is a par 4, but thats just my opinion

[treemd]

No mention of camden 2 in milan? Holes 4b, 5c, 6c, 8b and c, and 17c could all be considered par 4s. And hole 4c is a par 5. Even hole 6 at the original camden course is a par 4, a fairly easy par 4 but a par 4 none the less

[BionicRib]

I think us northern Illinois boys do more driving than bitching (that is "driving" to longer more challenging course)

[BionicRib]

forgot about camden.......I keep thinking that one is in Iowa

[RPS2012]

trinity has became one of my top 3 courses to play at now that the new tees are in. It is really fun and awesome! Id ratr as a fun factor (and these are some of the only courses ive played at around here)
1. Channahon
2. Trinity
3. westpark or maybe highland

these all have elevation change or some sort of tunnel/ obstacle to overcome which make them fun to me

[Scared_Discless]

not that its right, but at Illinois State they recognized (and correct me if I am wrong) 3 holes that were par 4's at Highland. If I had to lean towards one hole in particular I would say hole 4 from the longs is a par 4, but thats just my opinion

Yes. Blue played to a par 79 and white par 75. Note that there were 6 extra holes added and they were the same six for the Saturday and Sunday rounds. So 5 par 4's from the longs and 3 from the white tee pads.

[BionicRib]

West Chicago #8 & #12 only have the distance to claim a par 4. Hole #16 I'd give a legit par 4 to; I liked that hole a lot.

more holes in Illinois should be like this........although they should mow a little landing area zone in that tall grass.....I guess the point I'm trying make is that Illinois could use atleast a handful or more of holes with that kind of thought process involved

[#19325]

Round Lake--Fairfield
12-Par 4
18-Par 5

Waukegan--Bevier
11-Par 4

Marengo--Indian Oaks
5-Par 5
11-Par 4
18-Par 4

Streamwood--Shady Oaks
15-Par 4

Bartlett--Sunrise
7-Par 4

Lombard--Madison Meadow
11-Par 4

[BionicRib]

[QUOTE=#19325;1077193]Round Lake--Fairfield
12-Par 4
18-Par 5

Waukegan--Bevier
11-Par 4

Marengo--Indian Oaks
5-Par 5
11-Par 4
18-Par 4

Streamwood--Shady Oaks
15-Par 4

Bartlett--Sunrise
7-Par 4

Lombard--Madison Meadow
11-Par 4[/QUOTE

I don't think we really have any par 5's.....I wouldn't know where to start with a definition of a par 5, but I know there were a few in NC...Renny Gold, Hornets nest and Nevin. And those holes were just mind boggling and incredibly humbling

[#19325]

I have statistical data for #18 at Round Lake that shows it plays as a par 5. 3 eagle, 4 biride, and 5 par. Path being on/over out of bounds.

You could argue #5 at Indian Oaks is a par 4 but it was playing nasty earlier this summer.

[WorldsCoolestGuy]

In norrthern Illinois, Marengo. There are 2 true par 4's in the woods. But that's 2 of the few..

[Three Putt]

more holes in Illinois should be like this........although they should mow a little landing area zone in that tall grass.....I guess the point I'm trying make is that Illinois could use atleast a handful or more of holes with that kind of thought process involvedHey, if you find an orange Echo Star Roadrunner over in that tall grass you know how to find me. ;)

[NorthernDisc]

ya but when I can almost spit and hit IL its good enough for me.

I am all for spitting into IL, but the Grey Fox is my favorite course and it is definitely WI

[steveo69]

I am all for spitting into IL

Hay go eat some cheese

[BionicRib]

not to doubt because I'm still not quite sure of the definition of a par 5, but what sort of statistical data? Is it an average from past tournaments played there?

[#19325]

not to doubt because I'm still not quite sure of the definition of a par 5, but what sort of statistical data? Is it an average from past tournaments played there?

Yes. I ran the #'s from the past tournament.

[BionicRib]

kind of off topic, but if anyone here has played blue ribbon pines hole 4 is considered a par 4 and its a straight shot 450 i think. (the fairway is only about 50 ft wide the whole way).....I saw some 3's out there, but the 5s 6s and 7s were more prevalent. Most are pretty happy with a 4........That being said I still don't think that distance is the underlying factor of a par 4......(that hole is also one of a kind)

[BionicRib]

How about we just average the number of par 4's that everyone thinks are in Illinois..........I was thinking about 12........is that fair?

[GoodDriveBadPutt]

Ahhhhhhh Camden II. Who is in charge of the pins out there? An all-long tees round out there would be murderous. Even Juke would have to admit some of those are Par 4's. (And not just the one hole that is 2220' (http://www.dgcoursereview.com/course.php?id=3425&mode=hi) ;)).

I would even venture to say Camden I, hole #6... because of the layout, though, not the length. So probably not.

Other than that and the others mentioned already... yeah, nothing else stands out. Hole #9 at Summit? :)

[#19325]

How did I forget this hole. I was just there today.
Pine Hills--Ottawa, IL
Hole #5--Par 6

I have played this hole 4 times in tournament play. 6,7,6,6. I heard Dave K 4'd it today. Sick! You have to see this hole to believe it.

[dehaas]

There are probably a few par 4s at foundation park in centralia and the new b pins at silver lake park in highland. I've always considered par as what a pro would shoot on a hole, and both courses have some holes that I wouldn't are many pros taking a 2 on very often to justify it as a par 3. 3s are doable, but take some great shots lined up, so I would consider them 4s.

[DikenCider]

At Anna Page all holes are played as par 3 but a few could be considered par 4s. Hole seven on west A is 420 and B is 534. Not long holes but the shape of the hole makes them harder. Easy 3's. Hole 10 west 603 in B 600 in A could be a 4. Hole 12 west 564 in b and c is 735. Both can be a 3 but harder and hole 13 west in the b 501 is the last the could be considered a 4. East maybe hole 7 in A 466 not long but there is no way to throw straight to the basket the trees wont allow you to!! And maybe 15 on the east from the long pad 528 in the long with a narrow window from the tee. None of these holes are an easy two. Possible but would be very hard. I think all but 12 in the c has someone gotten a 2 on them. Not sure I would consider any of them a legitimate par 4 but some people would consider them as one. In marengo there are two par 4's hole five 519 has never had a 3 on it that anyone knows of. The shape of the hole makes it very hard to 4 let alone get a 3. And 11 which i think is a borderline 4 at 480 is considered a 4 at the course. Those are the ones I can think of. I know silver lake is in wisconsin but that guy saying all those holes are par 4's is nuts. there are only two holes that are 4's because of shot placement. Finally the way to make good golf holes as well as par 4 and 5's is shot placement/shape to the hole and not length. If a 700 foot hole is wide open it's easy but a 500 foot hole could be a 4 because you have to throw to this spot with your midrange then this spot with you driver and then to this spot with you putter just to get a 4. I hope you know what I mean. Remember people par 72 is the future of the sport!!

[dehaas]

i was talking with a good buddy the other day about pin placements. i was moving basket placements for a 3 man best shot fundraiser i was running and was wanting the course to have the biggest variation in scores possible. so basically high risk high reward. he brought up a great point...ball golf courses are designed around what a pro would shoot and that he felt disc golf courses shouldn't be all par 54s for the rec golfers. i know there are 2 categories, those who want to make the sport available to everybody, and those who want to see it grow into a professional sport. personally i like playing par 4s and 5s. a lot of people associate 4s and 5s to pure distance but that's not the case, it's a lot about shot placement pretty frequently. i'd never really thought about it in the sense that pros strive to shoot par (and possibly better). am guys (like myself) shouldn't be able to shoot -12 at their local 18 holer.

[Nowski]

willow stream hole 1 and 8.


for sure not haha i have hit basket on both before and pretty much outdrive the whole everytime

[Nowski]

we have no shortage here.....but my guess is players in Illinois have mastered the short game and putting. These are the foundation of DG and my guess would be these players do quite well in Majors

wooo callin us out! haha my boy kenny glassman and steven jacobs just won worlds in NY. we can keep up with the best of em no doubt!

[steveo69]

for sure not haha i have hit basket on both before and pretty much outdrive the whole everytime

Well I can't find it but a while ago I saw a link to somewhere on the pdga site that that showed anything over I belive 400' is a par 4. Thats what I based that off of.

[steveo69]

^^^^^
Found it!! This is what the pdga says on pars as compaired to distance of the hole.
For white tees a 400' wide open hole is a par 4. So #'s 1 and 8 are par 4 at willow stream in BG.

http://www.pdga.com/files/documents/ParGuidelines.pdf

[hognosesucker]

wooo callin us out! haha my boy kenny glassman and steven jacobs just won worlds in NY. we can keep up with the best of em no doubt!

Don't forget Ben Calloway (from the quad cities) won Am Nats this year

[puttlikeablowfly]

kind of off topic, but if anyone here has played blue ribbon pines hole 4 is considered a par 4 and its a straight shot 450 i think. (the fairway is only about 50 ft wide the whole way)

I think you're being generous ... it's more like 30 feet wide ... at most.

Well I can't find it but a while ago I saw a link to somewhere on the pdga site that that showed anything over I belive 400' is a par 4. Thats what I based that off of.

The PDGA Par Guidelines are here:
http://www.pdga.com/files/documents/ParGuidelines.pdf

edit: Too late. :)

[Dave242]

willow stream hole 1 and 8.

for sure not haha i have hit basket on both before and pretty much outdrive the whole everytime

This demonstrates why Par must be set per skill level.

Hole 1 is ~400' with I would guess +10-12' elevation (~430' effective length)
a few trees around the basket (thick pines on left), and an OB path of the left....but wide open fairway

Hole 8 is ~425' flat
Wide open - OB path on right, but well out of the way.

For someone who throws 260' (Red level), they are decent par-4's
Approach is 130-170' after a good drive - so a birdie-3 is rewarding

For someone who throws 340' (Blue level), they are tweener holes (bad holes) as a routine drive leaves a ho-hum upshot of 75-125' (boring!!! and no scoring separation based on playing well....only on screwing up)

For someone who throws 400' (Gold) they are decent par-3's. (They are slightly too long as the occurrence of getting within 35' is <33% so the scoring spread will not be good)

[Nowski]

I think you're being generous ... it's more like 30 feet wide ... at most.

yea seriously that fairway is tight, its gotta be around 30ft wide the whole way. but that course is so much fun, esp when you get to the hole where it marks the distance, its like 750 feet, i made it across the creek on my drive! ended up with a drop in three i was real excited about that

[BionicRib]

This demonstrates why Par must be set per skill level.

Hole 1 is ~400' with I would guess +10-12' elevation (~430' effective length)
a few trees around the basket (thick pines on left), and an OB path of the left....but wide open fairway

Hole 8 is ~425' flat
Wide open - OB path on right, but well out of the way.

For someone who throws 260' (Red level), they are decent par-4's
Approach is 130-170' after a good drive - so a birdie-3 is rewarding

For someone who throws 340' (Blue level), they are tweener holes (bad holes) as a routine drive leaves a ho-hum upshot of 75-125' (boring!!! and no scoring separation based on playing well....only on screwing up)

For someone who throws 400' (Gold) they are decent par-3's. (They are slightly too long as the occurrence of getting within 35' is <33% so the scoring spread will not be good)

I definitely see where you are going on this, but you can't make it a par 4 for some and a par 3 for others. Its like the rules in disc golf.......the sport needs to just stick with one consistent definition or what a par 4 or 5 is.....and to be honest I really don't agree with the concept of a par 6.......why not just make it two holes?.......If you're consistent then we don't have to waste time debating what should be a par 4 or 5. If I had my way I would base par on an average of what the top pros get on a hole........Once you get records of 100, thousand rated players playing a specific hole average the scores and round up or down and thats par.............problem solved

[BionicRib]

^^^^^
Found it!! This is what the pdga says on pars as compaired to distance of the hole.
For white tees a 400' wide open hole is a par 4. So #'s 1 and 8 are par 4 at willow stream in BG.

http://www.pdga.com/files/documents/ParGuidelines.pdf

Ahhhhhh......a chart.....good idea, but dear lord I can see this causing more arguments then solving any. what happens when the pdga allows people to throw aerobies?

[Cgkdisc]

If Aerobies are allowed, it will be a different game with different standards just like the par guidelines chart for Super Class discs would be different than the one posted. BTW, there are a few hundred par 6s around the world in ball golf and there are specific USGA guidelines for the proper length http://golf.about.com/od/handicaps/f/faq_parlengths.htm And note that par is different in ball golf from some of the same tees depending on whether it's for women or men. A 425 yd hole is par 4 for men and par 5 for women. Disc golf has been more progressive in defining skill level using colors rather than the old school: men, women, junior, senior and championship designations.

[#19325]

and to be honest I really don't agree with the concept of a par 6.......why not just make it two holes?.......

As 2 holes they are both lame arse holes. As 1 hole it's probably the hardest and most interesting hole in the state.

Scores ranged from 4 to 10+. This hole can be attacked many ways starting from the tee. I saw forehand, rollers, lay up shots, thumbers and forehand shots off the tee.

From the 2nd shot zone people were trying to cut the corner throwing over out of bounds into thick trees. If you hit and dropped out of bounds. What an insane play. Others were playing down the fairway trying to get around the corner.

From the corner there were 2 unique fairways to a basket elevated 50 feet up a hill. It was 2 full drives from the corner.

Great Par 6!!!! I've never played a hole like it.

[RPS2012]

wooo callin us out! haha my boy kenny glassman and steven jacobs just won worlds in NY. we can keep up with the best of em no doubt!

dont forget kyle chapman from FoxvalleyMetro who won jr doubles and Issac Mac from jtown flyers who is #3 in the world for 10 and under... =D go Illinois!! Woot woooottt

[mashnut]

As 2 holes they are both lame arse holes. As 1 hole it's probably the hardest and most interesting hole in the state.

Scores ranged from 4 to 10+. This hole can be attacked many ways starting from the tee. I saw forehand, rollers, lay up shots, thumbers and forehand shots off the tee.

From the 2nd shot zone people were trying to cut the corner throwing over out of bounds into thick trees. If you hit and dropped out of bounds. What an insane play. Others were playing down the fairway trying to get around the corner.

From the corner there were 2 unique fairways to a basket elevated 50 feet up a hill. It was 2 full drives from the corner.

Great Par 6!!!! I've never played a hole like it.

I missed something, where is this hole?

[BionicRib]

If Aerobies are allowed, it will be a different game with different standards just like the par guidelines chart for Super Class discs would be different than the one posted. BTW, there are a few hundred par 6s around the world in ball golf and there are specific USGA guidelines for the proper length http://golf.about.com/od/handicaps/f/faq_parlengths.htm And note that par is different in ball golf from some of the same tees depending on whether it's for women or men. A 425 yd hole is par 4 for men and par 5 for women. Disc golf has been more progressive in defining skill level using colors rather than the old school: men, women, junior, senior and championship designations.

Thank you.....I was looking for something like that to compare it to the pdga chart. just out of curiousity do you know what the par would be on hole 15 at the Valley DGC in Inner Grove Heights MN? (cool hole by the way) I would consider that hole a par 4 IMO......but if I look on the PDGA chart it would be a 3. Is there a local route on that hole that I just didn't see?

[Cgkdisc]

It's a par 4. You have to consider effective length, not actual length. Not only do you adjust for elevation difference between tee and pin (which is minimal on this hole) but also forced bends like this one. There's a very high, difficult route so an eagle 2 is possible (I've heard of one so far). But the scoring averages a little over 3.5.

[BionicRib]

It's a par 4. You have to consider effective length, not actual length. Not only do you adjust for elevation difference between tee and pin (which is minimal on this hole) but also forced bends like this one. There's a very high, difficult route so an eagle 2 is possible (I've heard of one so far). But the scoring averages a little over 3.5.

I agree with it being a par 4 and effective length and the forced bend.......Why not develop a system that takes all of that into consideration when determining what an actual par 4 is. I can definitely understand the difficulty in doing so, but with all of these monster courses popping up shouldn't there be a new way of determining par 4's 5's and 6's.......I am referring to that chart that is on the pdga site

[BionicRib]

The Valley is a great course by the way. My wife and I enjoyed that one as well as the many others in the Twin Cities area........its just too bad its a 7 hour drive to get up there.

[#19325]

I missed something, where is this hole?

Ottawa, IL--Pine Hills Golf Club.
http://www.ottawapinehillsgolfclub.com/

The course is still in the ground. Call for tee times. Great baskets. Grass tees. Go on a dry day.

[Nowski]

dont forget kyle chapman from FoxvalleyMetro who won jr doubles and Issac Mac from jtown flyers who is #3 in the world for 10 and under... =D go Illinois!! Woot woooottt

me and 3 of my bros are playin worlds this year in NC, watch for an illinois top 4 sweep in advanced! we got a group goin on on facebook like us- VALET KINGS

[Cgkdisc]

BionicRib - Why not develop a system that takes all of that into consideration when determining what an actual par 4 is. I can definitely understand the difficulty in doing so, but with all of these monster courses popping up shouldn't there be a new way of determining par 4's 5's and 6's.......I am referring to that chart that is on the pdga site
The DGCD course designers get software that takes those elements into account. The PDGA Par chart is a simplified display of what the software can do to forecast scoring on a hole either in advance or analyze actual scores and adjust by skill level to recommend par for each hole.

[notroman]

I agree that #17 plays long, but it's still only a Par 3. I mean, it's mostly flat and wide open with the treeline to the left.

To me, par 4's need to have defined landing zones, significant length, and/ or tight tunnel fairways.

I don't think any hole at Highland is a true par 4.

15 long is definitely a par 4. As is 12 long. Just because you can sometimes get a lucky drive up to the green doesn't mean it's a par 3. There is no defined fairway to reach the basket in one throw. Both of the holes require you to throw to a landing zone and then throw the next shot to the basket. They're just easy par 4s. Deucing them would be an eagle.

For similar reasons 18 at Fairfield is a par 5. Getting a 4 on that hole is very difficult and requires two well placed drives and a good upshot. Consider it a birdie and a reward for playing the hole well. How many people have ever taken a 3 on that hole? I did several years ago with a 150ft throw-in. A 3 on that hole is definitely an eagle.


Sorry for the delayed reply, I was playing disc all weekend and just got back home.

[#19325]

Ottawa, IL--Pine Hills Golf Club.
http://www.ottawapinehillsgolfclub.com/

The course is still in the ground. Call for tee times. Great baskets. Grass tees. Go on a dry day.

Matt,

If you go play it the big oak tree off the tee is a mando. You must throw to the left of the tree. There is a OB fence running down the entire left side. Just nasty!

[Rookie13]

me and 3 of my bros are playin worlds this year in NC, watch for an illinois top 4 sweep in advanced! we got a group goin on on facebook like us- VALET KINGS

Good luck man! Illinois disc golfers!!

[whiz]

I will look forward to kicking your butt again next year Nowski when you come down to Charlotte. The last course schedule I saw for advanced had the AM1s playing all different courses from the CAC this past year.

[Dana]

Dave K did not eagle 4 the par 6 at Pine Hills. I'll see about starting a thread about the par 6 when I get a chance.

As for par 4s in IL- Pontiac has 4- #3,#14,#16,#18. IVCC has 1, #9 Long.

The course we are designing in Streator, IL will have 3 par 4s and 1 par 5.

[BionicRib]

Dave K did not eagle 4 the par 6 at Pine Hills. I'll see about starting a thread about the par 6 when I get a chance.

As for par 4s in IL- Pontiac has 4- #3,#14,#16,#18. IVCC has 1, #9 Long.

The course we are designing in Streator, IL will have 3 par 4s and 1 par 5.

forgot about pontiac and I just played it.........wouldn't 3...14...and 16 be more like borderline par 4's?......I've only played it once....love hole 18 though!

[#19325]

[QUOTE=Dana;1078548]Dave K did not eagle 4 the par 6 at Pine Hills.
QUOTE]

That SOB Todd. He told me Dave K 4'd it round 1.

[Dana]

No, not borderline par 4s.
--3 There is no doubt that this is a par 4.
--14 could use a lil more length, but it is still a par 4. Not a gold level par 4, but a par 4 nonetheless.
--16 has a mando to the left of 1st oak tree. It is a shorter par 4, but with the mando (there to protect the cemetery) and the old baseball fence protecting the green its a pretty fun par 4. This hole leads to some interesting and thought provoking shots. You have to decide on the tee how you are going to attack the green on your 2nd shot.

[BionicRib]

How about a definitive discussion of par at Marengo?.......I think hole 5 and 11 are for sure par 4's. Ive heard people claim #5 to be a par 5, I think that is a stretch. I can also see arguments for hole 18 and 14, but I don't think they are as I have seen them both with tee shots with 50ft of the basket. Does anybody know how busy that park gets on nice days?......Had a long discussion with a friend that easy courses bring out more people. I think there is some truth to that, but when I played Renny Gold in Charlotte that place was packed and that IMO, is the toughest course I ever played.

[BionicRib]

What is better getting more people to play or making a course extremely challenging so it scares the beginners and less skilled players?

[Cgkdisc]

Multiple tees/baskets to serve a wide range of skill levels. Of course, if you're in business, then creating a popular disc golf destination is key.

[Nowski]

I will look forward to kicking your butt again next year Nowski when you come down to Charlotte. The last course schedule I saw for advanced had the AM1s playing all different courses from the CAC this past year.

haha who is this? i only lost to two people last year and they were both local baggers! haha jk brad and paul

[Dave242]

What is better getting more people to play or making a course extremely challenging so it scares the beginners and less skilled players?

I played Renny Gold in Charlotte that place was packed and that IMO, is the toughest course I ever played.

I think you unknowingly answered your own question.....before you asked it.

Renny believe it or not gets lots of traffic from the flip-flop wearing 2-discers out with their girlfriend demographic. So, extremely challenging does not automatically scare away beginners and less skilled players from the game. Now, if it was the only course in 20 miles, that might be different.

[BionicRib]

Dana?

Is the course in Streator ready to play or still in the works?......Is that the one with the possible basket hiding within a goofy lookin tree?......That looked pretty cool if it was (unique)

[notroman]

haha who is this? i only lost to two people last year and they were both local baggers! haha jk brad and paul

Hint: It's not Brad.

[Nowski]

Hint: It's not Brad.

yea i figured it was the bigger bagger of the two, why isnt paul playin pro?

[Dana]

Dana?

Is the course in Streator ready to play or still in the works?......Is that the one with the possible basket hiding within a goofy lookin tree?......That looked pretty cool if it was (unique)

Streator is not ready yet, probably not until Spring at earliest. The course you are referring to is in Manhatten, IL and that won't be open till next fall.

[BionicRib]

awesome to hear......you guys are doing good work down there....IM me if you need volunteers.

[dodgeball]

Interesting question and thread. I live in Texas so I haven't played any of the courses in question. But I think it ultimately comes down to knowing some real data on scoring average for the holes to determine what par really is. I'm wondering how many DGCR members know about the scoring stats section for any course on this site? To access it, u click on the recorded rounds/average score number on the front page for any course. To see hole by hole breakdown, u click on the Adv. Stats tab.

As an example, for the Highlands Park course, only 2 holes average over 4 strokes from the blue tees, 4 &17. Hole 9 is close with an average of 3.81. From the whites, 4,9 and 17 all average over 4 strokes. Another 4 holes average 3.7 or higher. Here's the link to the page: http://www.dgcoursereview.com/course.php?id=3021&mode=stats

I'm sure a lot of people already know about this feature and use it, so this is fyi for everybody else (I just recently checked this feature out).

[BionicRib]

I don't think I can access those stats because I am not a "member" on here, but I am definitely thinking about joining. This site is extremely helpful for a lot of reasons..........as far as highland I can see arguments for hole 17 from blue/white (cause they are the same tee). Does that analysis show how many people have played and recorded those rounds?........I think a beginner coming to a course like highland could easily end up skuing the averages very easily on any hole that requires a lot of control. I think those numbers can help to form a basis to go off of, but I really don't think any of those holes from the whites are par 4 (although you could make a strong argument for hole 17)

[mashnut]

Im looking forward to checking put the par 6 in ottowa tomorrow, I'm a fan of well designed multi-shot holes.

[BionicRib]

what is the par for the 2220ft hole at camden 2?...........10?.........and is this the longest hole in the country/world?..........and finally........plain and simply put.....WHY?

[Steve West]

what is the par for the 2220ft hole at camden 2?...........10?.........and is this the longest hole in the country/world?..........and finally........plain and simply put.....WHY?

Hole info says it's 3. Picture makes it look uphill and in the woods, so that would be a tough 2220 ft par 3.

[Dave242]

I played it this summer with Chris (designer) and he certainly made no mention of such a hole - and he shared lots of plans to tweak things and why they did what they did (I was thoroughly impressed).

If you look at the map (http://www.dgcoursereview.com/course_files/3425/8f4d558b.pdf) at hole 7 (which DGCR lists as 2220') I do not see much room for such a hole. Most likely a typo.....222' is more like it.

[mashnut]

Yeah, that's a typo I'm fairly sure.

[notroman]

Yeah, I just played Camden2 last weekend. Hole 7 is a shorty uphill. You can see the basket off the tee. Great ace run.

[dodgeball]

I don't think I can access those stats because I am not a "member" on here, but I am definitely thinking about joining. This site is extremely helpful for a lot of reasons..........as far as highland I can see arguments for hole 17 from blue/white (cause they are the same tee). Does that analysis show how many people have played and recorded those rounds?........I think a beginner coming to a course like highland could easily end up skuing the averages very easily on any hole that requires a lot of control. I think those numbers can help to form a basis to go off of, but I really don't think any of those holes from the whites are par 4 (although you could make a strong argument for hole 17)

Well I'm not a premium member either, if that's what u mean, and I can access all the stats. Did u try the link that I posted?

As far as Highland goes, the whites had the most recorded rounds with between 42-44 rounds for holes 1-18. I think that's a pretty good sampling to approximate the real scoring average or par for a given hole. It wouldn't a true random sampling, but I would take it over what people might think par would be for a hole. In short, numbers don't lie, but there might be a long and/or complicated story behind said numbers, lol.

[mashnut]

Im looking forward to checking put the par 6 in ottowa tomorrow, I'm a fan of well designed multi-shot holes.

Got out there today, and it's a really interesting set of shots. It's 500ish to the dogleg, with the drive under a relatively low branch with a mando on one side and an ob fence on the other. After the turn, there's another 500ish dotted with large trees to a steep hill and a protected basket on top of a steep slope. It's a well designed hole that really makes you work for every shot and plan your landing zones. I took a 6 and it felt like a solid par.

[BionicRib]

I played it this summer with Chris (designer) and he certainly made no mention of such a hole - and he shared lots of plans to tweak things and why they did what they did (I was thoroughly impressed).

If you look at the map (http://www.dgcoursereview.com/course_files/3425/8f4d558b.pdf) at hole 7 (which DGCR lists as 2220') I do not see much room for such a hole. Most likely a typo.....222' is more like it.

LOL......thank god its a typo......a 2220ft hole would be kind of boring.....unless you were throwing down the cliff of a mile high mountain. I was gonna go to Camden this last weekend, but the wife and I got the flu bug that everyone is getting around here.

[WorldsCoolestGuy]

I was gonna go to Camden this last weekend, but the wife and I got the flu bug that everyone is getting around here.

Camden 2 is one awesome course. One of the coolest I've played.:thmbup: You really should make a weekend of the Quad Cities area. Oh and.... Stay away from me with that chicken flu you got....:|:|