How many others will be banned?

[Donovan]

The way I understand it, the PDGA changed their definition of what a legal disc or PDGA approved disc should be. I also understand that the Turbo Putter will no longer be good after this year. How many other discs got cut out due to these changes? If more than that one, which companies were effected by this? Anyone? :confused:

[mobster]

I think just Quest is affected by this. They also made the double-rimmed Wheel that didn't get approval.

[MattK]

Do you have a link to the info on "The Wheel"? Last I'd heard, its approval was still pending.

[magictenor1]

What is a Turbo putter and what is wrong with it?

[Three Putt]

The Turbo-Putt is designed like a saw blade, with nubs all around the outside of the rim. It's designed to be used to turbo-putt, which is a putting technique. It's hard to explain, but if I'm stuck behind a something and I can't get a regular putting motion, I'll put my fingers on the outside and top of the rim with my thumb on the bottom of the flight plate, then sort-of fire the disc at the basket like a football. Bad explanation, but you get the gist. Anyway, the nubs on the outside are grooves for your fingers, and there is a swirl on the bottom so you can wedge your thumb into something for better grip. Really, it's sort-of a novelty disc. It was first approved, but there was a bunch of uproar since technically it is not round. There was also some concern that it was unsafe, but hit a guy in the head with a Turbo-Putt and then hit him in the head with a Pro Destroyer and see which gash needs more stitches.

There was some other stuff going on as well (the SL was ruled illegal briefly on a technicality.) So the rules were revised and the Turbo-Putt become illegal after this year. Not a great big deal, really.

They also put a limit on the size of the rim, which was a bigger deal. 2.4 cm., if I recall correctly. So once Innova comes out with their "Speed 14" discs, that will be all she wrote for the "Bigger rim, faster disc" race we have been in for the last 10 years or so. That is why the Monarch all of a sudden showed up. The manufacturers will have to develop new tricks from here on out since the rims are about as big as they can get.

The Turbo-Putt was really the only disc affected. The Epic could have been since at it's widest spot the rim is bigger than the max, but it is grandfathered in and will not loose it's approval. The Wheel was kind-of a gray area, but there were reasons NOT to approve it under the old rules so I don't think it would have been approved one way or the other. The story I heard was that Steve at Quest knew that the PDGA was going to revise the tech standards, so he was hung out to dry...he could not go forward with any new designs not knowing what the new standards were going to be, and the PDGA was dragging its feet and not doing anything. He released the Wheel and Viola!...the tech standards revision email came out the next week. The rumor was that he knew all along that it would not be approved, and he only released it to force the PDGA to do something. In the end he determined the rim size limit by releasing the Double D, as it was slated to be grandfathered in with a smaller rim limit but the other manufacturers argued that it would be unfair for Quest to be the only company with a disc that fast. So the Double D rim size became the legal limit by default.

[Three Putt]

Do you have a link to the info on "The Wheel"? Last I'd heard, its approval was still pending.Nope, The Wheel is illegal for PDGA play. It's kind-of useless anyway, so no great loss.

[Three Putt]

Also I guess that I should note that the guy who complained loudest FOR the Tech Standards revision and for a limit on the size of the rim was Dave Dunipace at Innova. He was pretty open at the time that the Destroyer was released that he thought the rims had gotten too wide and he wanted a 10% rule...the rim could only be 10% of the diameter, which for a 21.1 cm driver would have been 2.11 cm. The Destroyer was actually the third Innova disc to exceed the 10% rule (the MAX and TeeRex were the first two) but when the Destroyer came out he made a lot of noise about how he felt forced to release that disc and he did not think it was good for the game to have discs like that (more ballistic, less aerodynamic) out there. So Innova was actually campaigning for a 21.1 cm limit on rims, even if it made three of their best-selling drivers illegal (although they also recommended a 10-year window to phase them out.)

[MattK]

Nope, The Wheel is illegal for PDGA play. It's kind-of useless anyway, so no great loss.

In casual play I've found it makes a decent "get out of trouble" disc, on occasions. It is a straight, slow roller, and sometimes that is what is called for. But on most occasions a regular driver is better, they can roll a lot farther.

[petecarp]

why was the SL dubbed illegal at one time?

[ERicJ]

Link to Turbo Putter:
http://www.discgolfcenter.com/main_displayProductList.php?sn=turbo+putt

Link to the Wheel:
http://www.discgolfcenter.com/main_displayProductList.php?sn=wheel

[Innovadude]

I think SL or Fl or TL were an issue because they were made from 2 different approved molds, and their new mold was technically a different one, which wasn't originally approved by itself.

[Three Putt]

The rule was (and I think still is) that once a disc is approved, you can change the mold and the disc is still legal. There are certain things that must stay the same (like the diameter of the disc has to stay the same) but the manufacturer can tweak things like the shape of the wing and the disc is still legal. So as new plastics were introduced, Innova noticed that the type of plastic altered the flight of the disc. To be able to control that, they had (or have) an "X" (overstable) mold and an "L" (less stable) mold of several drivers. As a general rule, the "X" mold was produced in DX and Champ and the "L" mold was produced in Pro (although that is a loose rule, as you can find "L" and "X" Eagles in each type of plastic.) So when the Starfire came out of the CFR program it was sold in Champ and Pro, but even though they had the same name it was actually two different discs...The Champ Starfire "X" and the Pro Starfire "L." However, there was only one approval that covered both discs because they were both sold as the "Starfire."

Confused yet? Here is the twist...If you have an approved, legal disc and change the name, you have to have the disc re-approved EVEN IF the mold does not change at all.

So early last year Innova thought it would have to discontinue Pro plastic. They had three Pro discs that were only sold in pro plastic that were "L" molds that they wanted to keep in production, the Pro TeeBird, Pro Firebird and Pro Starfire. They decided to release each in Star plastic to keep them in production. Problem was, there were already "X" mold Star TeeBirds, Star Firebirds and Star Starfires in production. So Innova decided to sell them as the Star TL (TeeBird L), Star FL (Firebird L) and Star SL (Starfire L.) The PDGA ruled that those amounted to name changes. So even though players had been using those molds as legal discs in PDGA play for years, the discs had to be re-approved.

The TL and FL were re-approved in the spring, but the SL never showed up on the approved list. When it came time for the Discraft-sponsored USADGC, it was still not on the approved list and the TD (correctly) announced that the Star SL and Pro Starfire were not approved and therefore not legal for PDGA play. I guess having one of their discs declared illegal for a PDGA major caught Innova's attention, because the disc was approved by the next weekend.

I don't think the new Tech Standards addressed those rules. The manufacturers tweak their disc molds all the time, whether we are aware of it or not. There has been at least three versions of the TeeRex since it was introduced, but unless you know what to look for they all just say "TeeRex" on them.

[Donovan]

Three Putt, first let me say thanks for such great info on this!

So are you saying that only Quest has been affected by the change? Are those Innova discs like the Destroyer, they will be banned in 10 years or was that just a maybe?

It seems odd that only one company was effected for trying to be creative. I suppose the whole keeping it round thing is understandable to a point. I just hate seeing people trying to come up with something new that follows the guidelines and the someone changes the rules to say sorry, your creativity is not wanted.

This happens often in many sports and then every once in a while, the opposite happens like the new soccer ball thing that is going on in that sport right now. However, creativity winning out is hardly ever the norm. It makes me wonder if this holds sports development back or does it keep it where it should be?

[Russell Gore]

Since I still say that I can Turbo putt further and more accurately than anyone on the planet, I don't quite like the Turbo putt disc. It seems to be more of a learning tool than anything. I can't hardly throw it, and I can turbo putt up to 150 ft( no exaggeration, I really can turbo putt this far and have plenty of witnesses). I learned by throwing this putt for close to a year in every situation except tournaments. To me a turbo putt is basically the same as throwing a curve ball in baseball. Your index finger is what makes this throw work. I can put enough spin on a turbo putt to make it curve left or right. With all of those ridges on the outer rim it makes it hard to generate spin because your finger remains in one of the ridges throughout the throw, almost causing you to "push" the disc instead of spinning it. You can't let your finger slide around the outer edge the way the throw was designed. I give Quest all the credit in the world for designing the disc. I just don't think they fully understand what makes this putt work. There just aren't a lot of us who throw this putt so there is no real info on why and how it works. Plus the thumb track on the bottom of the disc is pointless. All of the rest of your fingers are used for balance only. They installed that track like it has something to do with the actual throw itself, therefore confusing people who don't know how to throw this. Plus it doesn't come with instructions, so how does anyone actually know how this putt works?
To better explain a turbo putt I will break it down the best I can...........
First take your throwing hand and bend your middle and ring finger down. Your index and pinky go up. Kinda like a hang loose sign. Anyhow put the disc on your middle and ring finger with the other two fingers being on the outside of the rim. Now your thumb goes on the little "nub" in the center of the disc. Now that you have that remember that only your index finger and forearm are what throw this shot. You bend your forearm at the elbow so that you are holding the disc above your head. When throwing this it is a combination of forearm and index finger that make this fly. Move your forearm forward with good tempo and spin your index finger counter clockwise around the outer rim of the disc. All of your other fingers are for balance only they serve no other purpose. If the disc wobbles coming out of your hand it was because of too much speed on either your arm or finger. It has to be a balance of arm speed and finger spin. They must equal each other for this to work. Work with it long enough and you will straighten it out. The key is a balance of finger spin and arm motion. They need to match up pretty closely.
Now an advanced lesson...........(Curve).........
To make it curve right to left put more counter clockwise spin than arm motion. That means that your index finger should slide faster and smoother around the outer edge. Using a birdie bag may help since it makes things come off your hand smoother.
To curve left to right put clockwise spin on the disc. This is very tricky since it is not a natural throwing motion. This will pull muscles you didn't know you had. Be careful you can tear something doing this. This will make it curve the opposite way therefore this should be the last thing you try. Practice throwing straight for a long time before trying the curve part.
Hope this helps all who have never tried this putt. If this can become a part of your arsenal than you will have a great advantage over most other players. This is great for uphill putts, over bushes, around trees, through tight ceilings, and anywhere else you can imagine this shot going. Just remember that you will not learn this over night. It takes a lot(months maybe even years) of time and practice!!!!!!!!

[Three Putt]

Three Putt, first let me say thanks for such great info on this!

So are you saying that only Quest has been affected by the change? Are those Innova discs like the Destroyer, they will be banned in 10 years or was that just a maybe?

It seems odd that only one company was effected for trying to be creative. I suppose the whole keeping it round thing is understandable to a point. I just hate seeing people trying to come up with something new that follows the guidelines and the someone changes the rules to say sorry, your creativity is not wanted.

This happens often in many sports and then every once in a while, the opposite happens like the new soccer ball thing that is going on in that sport right now. However, creativity winning out is hardly ever the norm. It makes me wonder if this holds sports development back or does it keep it where it should be?First off, thanks for that insight into the Tubo, Russell. I love a good thread drift when it has good info. ;)

As for the Tech Standards...the deal on the Turbo was announced BEFORE the revision and the Wheel was not going to be legal even under the old rules, so really no discs were killed by the revision. The only disc that I can remember that would not pass the new tech standards that is currently approved is the Epic, and it was grandfathered in and will remain legal. The Innova discs I mentioned are well within the new standards and will not loose their approval at any point...unless something changes. :D

And yes, the Tech Standards revision was aimed right at Quest. You remember last year? They released a slew of discs including odd stuff like the 10 M Brick, the Backbone, the Turbo-Putt & the Wheel. This year? They have been messing around trying to release the Defender for the last five months. Other than that, nothing. The Tech Standards revision was cooked up to shut down the creative stuff from Quest, and so far it's working.

BUT...A comment about Quest that is in line with what Russell said about the Turbo...the stuff is weird and creative BUT Steve does not play. He understands aerodynamics and engineering, but in a lot of cases he just does not understand how a shot works or what a player wants. So while the stuff was interesting, in a lot of cases it was just not all that functional.

[MattK]

"Quest AT says this about The Wheel:
The Wheel is a PDGA conforming golf disc and we are awaiting its PDGA approval."

-carefully worded, to be sure. Of course they can keep awaiting its approval forever...

[Donovan]

Well, it is odd that he doesn't play, but regardless, it still kills and dampens innovation (no innova pun intended). I wonder if it has made other disc makers shy away from trying new things? Oh well this was so informative. Thanks for all of it!!!

[Three Putt]

"Quest AT says this about The Wheel:
The Wheel is a PDGA conforming golf disc and we are awaiting its PDGA approval."

-carefully worded, to be sure. Of course they can keep awaiting its approval forever...The PDGA has threatened to sue them if they don't stop calling it a "PDGA conforming golf disc." It's approval was denied back in October or November of last year, and you can appeal that. All you can do is alter the disc and re-submit it.

BTW, the reason it was not approved was because it has no top. The ruling was that a disc must have a top and a bottom, and The Wheel technically has no top and two bottoms.

[Nickwells]

No top?

[Three Putt]

Well, it is odd that he doesn't play, but regardless, it still kills and dampens innovation (no innova pun intended). I wonder if it has made other disc makers shy away from trying new things? Oh well this was so informative. Thanks for all of it!!!The story of disc golf is one of patents and lawsuits. The reason the Technical Standards for discs were so lax was because Innova held the patent on discs. Back in the day all the discs had that "licensed under patent" in the engraving on their discs because they had had to sign a licensing agreement with Innova before they could release a beveled edge disc. Anyone who tried to release anything funny would end up in court, as Innova used the licensing agreements to exert pressure on the other companies. Lightning was the exception, as their lawyer regularly beat Innova's lawyer in court so they never had to sign a licensing agreement. Anyway, the Tech Standards for discs did not need to be strict as Innova was in control of what was released.

Innova didn't make up this strategy, they learned it from DGA. DGA held the patent on baskets and sued anybody who mounted chains and/or a basket to a pole for years. The explosion in disc golf courses in the late 90's came about when the DGA patent expired and Innova started selling the DisCatcher basket for about $100.00 less per basket than the Mach III. In a similar way, the number and kind of discs exploded after the Innova patent on golf discs expired.

If I was still a cynical kind of guy, I'd point out that the pressure for Tech Standards revision came primarily from Innova shareholders. Then I'd insinuate that they used the PDGA as a puppet as they had them revise the standards to crack down on the other disc manufacturers since legally Innova could not do it anymore. But I gave up being cynical, so you will have to connect the dots yourself.

[Three Putt]

No top?Nope, technically it has no top. It is kind of like a lid style putter with the flight plate is in the middle of the rim instead of on one side. So with the flight plate in the middle, it really has no top. If you throw it backhand, it dives hard into the ground no matter how you try to throw it as it has no lift AT ALL.

[MattK]

The PDGA has threatened to sue them if they don't stop calling it a "PDGA conforming golf disc." It's approval was denied back in October or November of last year, and you can appeal that. All you can do is alter the disc and re-submit it.

BTW, the reason it was not approved was because it has no top. The ruling was that a disc must have a top and a bottom, and The Wheel technically has no top and two bottoms.

If I was with Quest I'd say "sue me...and I'll wipe you out in the counter suit!" The advocate for Quest could argue that The Wheel does indeed have a top and bottom, only that the flight plate is sunken so far that they are hard to distinguish. If they ban all sunken flight plates, then several other discs would go, not just Aerobie's Arrow, but also Discraft's Banger-GT, Innova's Birdie, Wolf...pretty much anything with a thumb track or features that push the central flight plate somewhere other than on top of the disc.

Now if they clarify/alter the rules to dictate that the plate must be a certain percentage or distance from the center, but do so in such a way that only Quest's disc gets left out - that strengthens Quest's position that the PDGA is in bed with the bigger disc companies. They have an established history (with the turbo-putt) of banning discs that Quest makes that, while technically conforming to the rules as they are written at the time, have a structure that the PDGA (and the bigger disc makers) did not anticipate.

Maybe the rules should be changed to make the Wheel non conforming. In the same vein, maybe they should ban thumb tracks, or soft putters, or grooves, or translucent plastic...this of course will never happen, because Innova and Discraft have developed discs with these characteristics. But the PDGA doesn't hesitate to ban the innovations, however bizarre, that Quest has made. I can't say for sure that the PDGA is acting as an authority favoring the big companies over the small, but it appears to be a fair argument to make.

[MattK]

If I was still a cynical kind of guy, I'd point out that the pressure for Tech Standards revision came primarily from Innova shareholders. Then I'd insinuate that they used the PDGA as a puppet as they had them revise the standards to crack down on the other disc manufacturers since legally Innova could not do it anymore. But I gave up being cynical, so you will have to connect the dots yourself.

Exactly! And I'm sure Quest's lawyers can connect the dots as well, and have told the PDGA's people that they believe that potential triers of fact can also make the connection.

I really hope they strike a deal however, as they did with the Turboputt. To have such a battle fought out in court would be terribly costly to all involved.

[brennan]

Really, I wish Quest would just stop making discs before they end up doing some of the things mentioned above. As of yet, they haven't made anything that is "innovative" in a way that is actually useful and if they sued and had discs like the Banger GT, thumbtrack discs, etc. banned it would piss off massive amounts of people; Exponentially more so than if they just gave up making discs altogether.

[MattK]

I don't think Quest is the bad guy, here. They're just doing what they should be doing: developing novel products that conform with the rules, as they are written. I hold the PDGA to blame for not developing a rigorous definition for what a disc must be to be legit. Instead they have been taking a reactionary approach: making ex post facto changes to the rules after a disc comes to market which follows the letter of the law, but for whatever reason the rules makers just don't like.

[DGtourist]

I don't think Quest is the bad guy, here. They're just doing what they should be doing: developing novel products that conform with the rules, as they are written. I hold the PDGA to blame for not developing a rigorous definition for what a disc must be to be legit. Instead they have been taking a reactionary approach: making ex post facto changes to the rules after a disc comes to market which follows the letter of the law, but for whatever reason the rules makers just don't like.

I agree! As a wheel owner myself, I must add that its a pretty useless disc. Why should PDGA be bothered to ban a disc that (I feel) most people would agree does not provide an unfair advantage? The only advantage it has that I can tell is that their competition has not made a similar disc.

[Three Putt]

I'll try not to get long winded here, because I like the dialog and don't want to cut anybody off.

Basically the PDGA did what its membership wanted it to do in banning the Turbo-Putt and The Wheel. When they did the Tech Standards Revision the changes they made were dictated by feedback from PDGA members. Really, what else could they do? So the whole thing was directed by PDGA players, who generally drink the Innova Kool-Aid and repeat what their Innova-sponsored Open Pro friends told them to say. I got an earful about how unfair the whole process was because I play in St. Louis, and the locals were repeating what their Gateway-sponsored Open Pro friends were saying about how the process was tilted to what Innova wanted. That's not an Innova bash, God knows they do more for disc golf before breakfast than I'll do in my entire life. It's just the reality of the little pond with the big shark swimming in it.

NOW...there are around 12,000 current members of the PDGA. It's impossible to know for sure, but there is an estimated 500,000 disc golfers in the U.S. As you can see, the PDGA represents a really small fraction of the disc golf population. So obviously, a really small % of players had their voices heard in this matter.

So the flip side is...if you don't play in PDGA events or local events that use PDGA rules, why do you care? Drive with an Aerobie Ring and putt with a Turbo Putt if you want to. Unless you are a player who competes in tournaments, you should not let the PDGA tell you anything about the equipment you use. If you do play in PDGA events and you disagree with what they did...well, I guess you should have sent that questionnaire back. :cool:

[WillA]

<<<<So the flip side is...if you don't play in PDGA events or local events that use PDGA rules, why do you care? Drive with an Aerobie Ring and putt with a Turbo Putt if you want to. Unless you are a player who competes in tournaments, you should not let the PDGA tell you anything about the equipment you use.>>>>>

AMEN, AMEN, and AMEN again.

[t i m]

In my experience, regulation -- to a point -- forces greater and greater creativity in stretching the rules to their limits. I'm just curious to see what Qwest will do with the new rules in place. I expect we can see some innovative designs with larger-diameter discs (how would a Jaguar-sized disc with a Destroyer-sized rim fly?); more discs that utilize two or more types of plastic fused together; additional experimentation with rim configurations (I'm sure we all suspect that if Qwest had release the Monarch, it would have been banned by the PDGA, but I'm sure there are other ways to alter rims to get different properties out of the disc flight); new variations on rings, dimples, etc on the flightplate.

For instance, I can imagine a putter fused of two different plastics in a yin-yang type configuration. One half is stiff as a board and the other half is floppy as putty -- the disc would fold in half to pass the tech standards, but it would allow a golfer to grip and throw the stiff part and then the floppy part would grab the chains like a little spider monkey and just not let go.

Or take a disc -- any disc -- and coat the whole outside rim in shock-absorbing rubber so it gets zero-bounce off of trees -- perfect for those tree-lined alley shots, since it almost guarantees your second shot would stay in the fairway.

Or make a disc that follows the same idea as the wheel -- a perfectly neutral center of gravity -- and make a "Wheel v2.0" that has a flight plate that is even with the outside rim of the disc, giving it the true "top" that the rules require, but sink the center of the flight plate so far that it comes even with the bottom edge of the disc, essentially counterbalancing the center and outside edge of the flight plate so that the end result is a vertical center of gravity -- achieving the same goal as the Wheel while conforming to the new PDGA standards and hopefully being easier to throw.

Anyway, those are just the first ideas that pop into my head this morning, but I will look forward to seeing what gets implemented and what company(ies) are willing to forge new ground and experiment with disc technology.

I think discs will hit a limit as to how far/fast they will go under the current standards, but I think there is a lot of potential to develop specialty discs that are the ideal discs for various situations on the course.

I know there is a widespread trend for "disc minimalism" and getting to know your plastic, but I think the current #1 player at the time of this post -- Feldberg -- is the poster child for the potential benefits of specialty discs. He's got a huge bag packed with plastic, a lot of it tuned specifically for certain types of shots that other people might not have a disc for.

Sure, it's possible to make 3-4 discs fly 90-percent of routes. But as the sport gets more and more competitive, having a disc to fly those other tricky, specialized 10-percent of shots can increasingly be the difference between winning and losing at the elite eschelons of the sport.

And for those of us down in the trenches who probably never will be playing 1000-rated golf, a disc that stops cold when it hits a tree could still be pretty useful. :)

[Three Putt]

If you look around, Innovation is happening. Quest and Gateway are still working on Dimple Technology (even though Innova continues to say it does not work) and Discraft put cross-hatching on the wing of the Impact, so even though the Monarch gets all the attention it is certainly not the first attempt at innovation on the wing of the disc. There is also a small company called Snap Discsports that released a disc called the Helios that has a 2.7 cm diameter and a 2.3 cm rim, so there is a larger diameter disc with the modern "big wing" (although admittedly not "Jaguar-sized"...:eek:) None of these innovations were outlawed, and I'm sure more are on the way.

Also, I was wrong about the wing length, it can be 2.6 cm and still be legal.

[garublador]

I know there is a widespread trend for "disc minimalism" and getting to know your plastic, but I think the current #1 player at the time of this post -- Feldberg -- is the poster child for the potential benefits of specialty discs. He's got a huge bag packed with plastic, a lot of it tuned specifically for certain types of shots that other people might not have a disc for.

Sure, it's possible to make 3-4 discs fly 90-percent of routes. But as the sport gets more and more competitive, having a disc to fly those other tricky, specialized 10-percent of shots can increasingly be the difference between winning and losing at the elite eschelons of the sport.To be clear, many of us that do push minimalism acknowledge that overspecalization can be a problem once you aquire the necessary skills. In other words, you have to be able to make 3-4 discs fly 90% of the routes to get anything out of moving away from minimalism. Once you're to that point, there's definitely something to be said for choosing specific discs for specific shots assuming you have good enough disc selection skills to choose the right disc every time.

[Three Putt]

Feldberg is the equivalent of the the big-league ballplayer with an weird batting style.

When I coached little league, I always ended up with some kid waving the bat over his head like Julio Franco or spreading their feet too far apart like Jeff Bagwell, and I could not get them to change because they saw a big-leaguer do it on TV and who the (blank) was I anyway? So they would go 0 for the season and their Dad would yell at me for being a lousy coach.

So now I try to warn disc golfers that they have too many different discs in their bag and they should really learn how to throw the same disc on different lines instead of depending on the disc to do the work for them, and all I hear is "Dave Feldberg carries 40 discs and who the (blank) are you, anyway?"

[Donovan]

I sure do hope that disc makers do continue trying to come up with something different. I really dig the idea that the best disc made for this sport has yet to be discovered. I have to refer to the soccer ball thing again. Who in there right mind would take the time to improve something that is worldly know, used and loved just the way it is? Well, it sounds like a huge waste of time, but that's what made this so amazing. The ball and game is going to be better beacuse of it.

Nothing is perfect and almost anything can be improved upon. So I hope instead of banning discs or making discs innovation controlled by one entity, or 2 in some people's mind, that we allow people to keep on striving to create the next big disc.

[oakley doakley]

Amen Donovan! Long live Quest AT, Discwing, Snap, Latitude 64, Aerobies Epic and any one else who truly wants to be real INNOVAters, or true DISCRAFTsmen. I go out of my way to support other companies beside the big two. (or really the big one) I have heard stories about how INNOVA can control the PDGA from people that hold disc golf tournaments on the course they developed. I truly feel that INNOVA is in bed with the PDGA. Which is just another reason that the PDGA in my opinion is ran piss poor. Disc golf now reminds me of surfing in the 70's (especially with the stoner stereotype that seems to be attached to it). This sport has yet to be truly marketed correctly. I think if this sport gets (or when) bigger and more money is to be made of it, the PDGA could be replaced by another entity if there not careful. The pros and the disc golf manufactures will follow the money.

[Three Putt]

I think it will. Just remember these things take time. From our own history, the PDGA was formed in 1976 or 1977 when the game used Frisbees. There were changes made to make the discs better for golf, but they involved making the diameter smaller and making the discs themselves heavier. It took six or seven years before the key step, the beveled edge, was developed. It seems as obvious as the nose on your face...we were using a disc designed to be caught for a sport where nobody needed to catch a disc. Yet there were very very smart people like Ed Headrick and Dr. Stancil Johnson who missed it. Even after the beveled edge was in production, it took another five years before you saw any discs with our current "driver-like" design. So if you are expecting a great revolution in golf discs every six months, you will be disappointed.

[Three Putt]

Amen Donovan! Long live Quest AT, Discwing, Snap, Latitude 64, Aerobies Epic and any one else who truly wants to be real INNOVAters, or true DISCRAFTsmen. I go out of my way to support other companies beside the big two. (or really the big one) I have heard stories about how INNOVA can control the PDGA from people that hold disc golf tournaments on the course they developed. I truly feel that INNOVA is in bed with the PDGA. Which is just another reason that the PDGA in my opinion is ran piss poor. Disc golf now reminds me of surfing in the 70's (especially with the stoner stereotype that seems to be attached to it). This sport has yet to be truly marketed correctly. I think if this sport gets (or when) bigger and more money is to be made of it, the PDGA could be replaced by another entity if there not careful. The pros and the disc golf manufactures will follow the money.Innova isn't really in bed with the PDGA. That would give the PDGA too much credit. The PDGA is the great and powerful Oz. Innova is that man behind the curtain.

[t i m]

Feldberg is the equivalent of the the big-league ballplayer with an weird batting style.

When I coached little league, I always ended up with some kid waving the bat over his head like Julio Franco or spreading their feet too far apart like Jeff Bagwell, and I could not get them to change because they saw a big-leaguer do it on TV and who the (blank) was I anyway? So they would go 0 for the season and their Dad would yell at me for being a lousy coach.

So now I try to warn disc golfers that they have too many different discs in their bag and they should really learn how to throw the same disc on different lines instead of depending on the disc to do the work for them, and all I hear is "Dave Feldberg carries 40 discs and who the (blank) are you, anyway?"

I agree and disagree to a point. I strongly encourage players starting out (or players who have never had a minimal bag) to work hard to learn 2-3 discs, preferably neutral discs. But as you learn how plastic flies, I think it can improve your game to experiment with a bunch of different discs and a bunch of different throws.

I've been throwing discs for a little over a decade, and in college, my roommate and I spent countless hours playing disc golf for the sheer fun of it -- we didn't sign up competitively. We'd have a lot of one discs rounds where it was Aero vs. Aero or putter challenges or Speed Demons only, or whatever. Or we'd play rounds where we'd throw multiple discs and keep multiple scores going (separate backhand, forehand and upside-down scores for each of us on every hole, for instance) with the winner having the lowest cumulative score. Forced experimentation with different discs and different ways discs can fly improves your understanding of the plastic and of the game.

One of the most fun games we played was to get 3-6 people playing in a group and each bring the worst disc we owned. You would throw that one disc for the hole, and then after every hole, trade discs in rotation. It helped teach you how to throw every kind and condition of plastic imaginable.

Another game was to take all the discs we had in the car, drop them on the ground, and take turns "drafting" discs into our bag for the round. You could strategize to try to take all the putters or high speed drivers or whatever, or to take the other person's favorite discs, etc... made for some very interesting rounds with unfamiliar plastic.

When we'd do field work, we'd just have a stack of all our discs and take turns throwing whatever was on top, then collect them, restack them, and throw again. You got to try everything and see how subtle differences in discs and throws affected flight.

These days, with very little time for casual play (now I basically only have time for tournament rounds), I know I still benefit from those years goofing off and truly playing with what discs can do.

For tournaments, I have basic discs that are always in my bag -- the workhorse discs that do 90% of the work. But based on the course and the conditions, the other half my bag changes every round to fit the occasion. I also don't feel like my round is going to be ruined by losing any one disc -- there is always something else that can make the same shot. I've played several tournaments without a bag -- carrying just 4-6 discs in my hand

I'm not advocating that players use Feldberg to justify a huge bag of discs. I'm just saying that once you have enough experience throwing different discs, it doesn't hurt to expand beyond disc minimalism. Sure, a CE Firebird can fly a tight helix down an S-shaped alley in the woods, but if I bring a Z-Xtreme for that shot I can throw a lower, tighter line and get a bigger skip at the end, perhaps putting me closer to the pin than would be possible with the Firebird. Am I going to use the Z-Xtreme on other shots: probably not. Is it worth it for one hole: absolutely.

[oakley doakley]

Innova isn't really in bed with the PDGA. That would give the PDGA too much credit. The PDGA is the great and powerful Oz. Innova is that man behind the curtain.

sounds right to me:cool:

[Three Putt]

Sorry, I'm not arguing you point.

Here is my message board philosophy on this...a bunch of guys who played disc golf for the first time this weekend will go home and Google "Disc Golf" and end up reading this forum. I try to give conservative advise, as those guys need to use minimalism and learn to throw. If they have 12-14 different molds in their bag, it will make it harder for them to learn. For you, I figure you know enough about the sport to make your own decisions and ignore me if you would like. If you want to carry a bunch of discs, why not?

I'm just never going to advocate carrying a bunch of different molds on a message board...kind-of for the same reason I don't curse in movie theaters during Disney movies. :)

[Three Putt]

Oakley Doakley keeps sneaking in on me. The last post was actually responding to the post from t i m.

[t i m]

I'm just never going to advocate carrying a bunch of different molds on a message board...kind-of for the same reason I don't curse in movie theaters during Disney movies. :)

Very well said, and great rationale. That's why I tried to give so many examples of different ways to play practice round -- must of which emphasize minimal discs and learning how every disc you have flies for all possible types of shots.

I think one of the best things most people could do for their game is play for a few months with just a putter. Then add a midrange and play that way for a month or two, then add a neutral driver and finish out the year with those three discs. It would be a hard challenge for most people, but I think if you did it with friends, it would be fun and keep the competition lively.

I could see a 123/321 challenge being a great idea. You and your friends all make a six-month commitment. For the first three months you get one disc (putter), for the next two months, you get two discs (putter,midrange), for the last month, you get three discs (putter, midrange, neutral driver). At the end of six months, you get your whole bag back... if you want it. I bet most amateur players would learn more in six months than in their first few years of play.

[Jungle Tim]

i know this post is SUPER old, but i stumbled across it and found it fascinating. I think the PDGA were wrong to eliminate quest discs.

the way my bag plays is 'survival of the fittest' if i have a good success the disc stays, so in the case of banning the wheel / turbo putt it should be decided by shop floor sales and discs in bags not anyone else.

as for disc selection bags that represent disc emporiums vs mold minimalism, survival of the fittest, is some sort of middle road here.

[JR Stengele]

I must say that since I have been a member, this is one of the better threads I have read. Thanks to all who participated. It is a shame that half of the conversations (on other threads) are useless to say the least. I hope we continue talking about all the aspects of the game, not the same redundant bull$#!% that pops up from time to time. Keep it up fellas. Good on ya!

[Lewis]

No kidding. Thanks for reviving this thread, 'cause it's one I'd missed in the past. :D

[Ryan P.]

This is a sweet discussion. I finally learned what TL's, SL's and FL's are. i've been wondering that forever.

still, i would like to know how to tell the difference between an L mold and an X mold. if anyone knows, that would be awesome.

[iDisc]

quest makes garbage discs anyways

[Jungle Tim]

I have heard about the 'tee-rex' fiasco (i think threeputt mentioned it). I dont know what happened, but i heard that innova got the tops muddled up. how can i tell the difference between t-rex's and were the accidental change approved, or are the discs not legal?

My other question would be how on earth could you muddle the tops up!??!

[Three Putt]

I have heard about the 'tee-rex' fiasco (i think threeputt mentioned it). I dont know what happened, but i heard that innova got the tops muddled up. how can i tell the difference between t-rex's and were the accidental change approved, or are the discs not legal?

My other question would be how on earth could you muddle the tops up!??!If you are wanting the TeeRex to be the wind-buster overstable driver it is supposed to be, get the ones with the sharp wings. Avoid the blunt-nosed TeeRex, especially the blunt nosed DX TeeRex.

If you want to impress you friends with how you can throw hyzer-flips with an overstable disc, look for the blunt-nosed DX TeeRex. :D

How did they muddle the tops? Good question. I have no actual knowledge of this, so this could all be made-up bunk...Innova has more than one mold piece for a lot of their molds. At some point they made a replacement piece for the "record" or "zipper" top (if you run you finger across the top it makes a sound like running a needle across a record) and put it into use. Unfortunately, it must not have been sufficiently tested, as the discs resulting form this mold piece were not as stable as they needed to be. The disc that was most notably impacted was the Viking, which was produced for several years with the defective top. Innova did not figure it out until people started complaining about the TeeRex. To make things worse, my understanding is that the "record" top was available the whole time. They just were no using it. Again I must give the disclaimer that I have no direct knowledge of this, although Dave Dunipace admitted to some of it on the PDGA site at one point.

[Three Putt]

This is a sweet discussion. I finally learned what TL's, SL's and FL's are. i've been wondering that forever.

still, i would like to know how to tell the difference between an L mold and an X mold. if anyone knows, that would be awesome.Usually there is a stabilizer on the wing like a notch on the X molds VS the L molds that make them more overstable.

[Three Putt]

quest makes garbage discs anywaysFrom what I understood, Quest uses aluminum molds which they can make quickly and cheaply, but if you use a very dense plastic in them they will easily warp and distort. That was the reason I heard why the crappy SRP plastic was the top of the line Quest plastic last year. They have been releasing discs in improved plastic this year, but I noticed that the only Quest disc I have much experience with (the Inferno) has a different mold now in the premium plastic and flies like dung. I'm not sure if they had to make new molds out of a more durable material to stand up to the denser plastics, or if they just cut new molds all the time to account for the aluminum molds they trash. Anyway, I was not impressed with the premium plastic Inferno. They have been messing around all year with the Defender, which is STILL not PDGA approved. I'm beginning to think they are not going to get their discs approved and just sell them to the recreational market.