Pay to Play is NOT a con

[ptsawyer]

I have noticed that on the course reviews, virtually every course I have seen that has a "pay to play" fee has it listed as a "Con" in the review section, and that the scores tend to be somewhat reduced because of it. I find this somewhat odd and troubling.

Generally speaking, the cost to play these courses is less than $5 in my experience, often closer to $2 or $3. That is cheaper than a meal from McDonalds! Where else can you find any sort of entertainment at this level for this price? In virtually every case, this money goes for maintainence and improvement of the course, which is why pay to play courses such as Hudson Mills, in MI are some of the best in the US.

Seriously, as disc golfers, how cheap are we? I bet most of us are willing to shell out $20 for a new driver no problem, but when we are asked to help pay for the parks we use for our sport we label that as a negative? It makes no sense.

All courses are "pay to play" in some regard. Someone had to design and install the course, and the course also has to be maintined, whether it is through tax dollars, fundraising, or volunteers. Someone is paying. There is nothing wrong with asking the users of the course to help pay for it.

Pay to play courses are the only way that we are going to see new courses that are of extremely high quality, truly premium places to play such as the 48 holes in Hudson Mills I mentioned earlier. If the sport we love is going to continue to grow and evlove, we will need to become more welcoming to the pay to play concept.

Imagine how amazing a course could be if it had a modest fee of say $10-$15 for all you can play. I have no doubt in certain areas, you could maintain a profitable and absolutely beautiful 72 hole facility that rivals an actual golf course for this price. This is the direction I would like to see disc golf move towards, but it will only happen if disc golfers are willing to pay for it. We need to start seeing pay to play as a positive, and not a negative.

[oakley doakley]

Your right but I have paid to play courses that are not as nice or I didn't enjoy as much as free courses. But I completely agree with you and have no problem paying. If I liked it I will keep coming back and paying. I don't think the greatest disc golf course has been made yet. I like how more course are being made that charge people and you can see where the money goes. There used to be a course in Fort Worth, TX called Ideal golf ranch (now it's an apartment complex). It was 10 bucks to play with golf cart. The course was not that great but the fact that it was BYOB and the golf cart was great for me. Playing some disc golf and catching a buzz with the disc golf cart. I would have paid more. To bad the land was worth more then the course could generate. I am willing to pay!

[mobster]

The roots of disc golf is free play and one of the biggest draws for new players is the fact that free courses are all over the country. People giving a course a negative point for pay to play are most likely new players or DG purists. For the majority of golfers, we know that pay to play is a great progression for the sport and opens up much sweeter courses.

[ehillis]

Paying to play will also give disc golf legitimacy when compared to other sports, both because the courses will be nicer and because it will be seen more as a sport rather than just a hobby. It may also become more popular if more courses go that route because people will choose the nominal fees over something more expensive like golf or going to a game as weekend entertainment.

[ptsawyer]

People giving a course a negative point for pay to play are most likely new players or DG purists.

While I agree with this statement, "DG purists" need to realize that local clubs, volunteers, and tax payers are all funding their sport. If they truly are lovers of the sport, then they should welcome this progression that will bring us more and better courses.

A course that is owned by a businessman and run for profit is going to get a lot more attention and care than one that is run by a public park.

[Pastime]

I do agree with you on the fact that Hudson Mills is a great course and paying $2 a day or $50 a year is reasonable, but not every pay to play course is going to be as good and well maintained.

[ptsawyer]

I do agree with you on the fact that Hudson Mills is a great course and paying $2 a day or $50 a year is reasonable, but not every pay to play course is going to be as good and well maintained.

This is very true. There are also some abosolutely amazing free courses as well. However, I think that we could see courses that are far beyond anything that exists today, if disc golfers would be willing to embrace the format that currently exists for traditional golf, paying "greens fees" at privately held courses that are run as businesses.

If disc golfers are already resistant to paying $3-$5 at a state park, then I fear that they may resist the privatization of some courses, which could take the sport to the next level.

There will always be free courses, as there are benefits seen at parks that install courses (reduced crime, increased activity, better support for the park system, etc). But I think some of the more avid disc golfers would really appreciate a top notch facility that is similar to a traditional golf course, with a pro-shop, range, etc.

[Three Putt]

I do agree with you on the fact that Hudson Mills is a great course and paying $2 a day or $50 a year is reasonable, but not every pay to play course is going to be as good and well maintained.Very true. However, as a general rule I'd expect MOST pay for play courses to be better maintained. The ones that are not will do poorly in the marketplace, so there is justice in the end.

Another point for pay for play...we get labeled as a "stoner" sport because people who really don't care about playing but are looking for a place to go get high hang around our free courses smoking dope, vandalizing our equipment, making sure the neighbors see them being stupid and once and a while throw a hyzer drive. Once you charge those knuckleheads even a nominal fee, they will go get stoned behind the Gas 'N Sip and leave us alone. I'd gladly pay $2/day or $50/year to get rid of those guys.

[MattK]

Paying to play disc golf increases its legitimacy in the same way paying for a bottle of water at a fast food joint improves my dining experience. I look forward to pay-to-play disc golf in the same way I look forward to paying $7 bucks a pillow then next time I board an airplane. If somebody wants to put up a course on private land - fine, he may charge what he wishes for it, and I will never play it. Every course I've played (and I've played some very nice ones) has been on public land and financed with public funding and donations from local organizations. I think these groups do a fine job nurturing the sport, and I don't think insisting it be a cash generator would help it at all, in fact, it would hurt the sport greatly.

I am generally a believer in people paying for the public resources that they use, but not when it comes to the very basics of a public park. Disc golf does not cost what ball golf does, not nearly as much. The costs of putting in a disc golf course and maintaining it are comparable to that of playground equipment and such. I can't imagine telling the boys who use the basketball hoops in the park that it will cost 'em five bucks a game. I don't think that the man who jogs around the track should be charged the "nominal fee" of only one dollar a lap (hope you brought your wallet). I don't want the little girl who climbs on the jungle gym to be charged by the climb or by the hour (can't afford to climb - tell your mommy to make more money). And I don't want the kids who just spent several weeks worth of allowance on their first golf discs to be charged what some people here consider a paltry sum of 2, 5, 10 or 15 dollars for the right to learn the game that all of us learned for free. I realize that parks cost money, but I'd rather have my taxes going to pay for people to get exercise for free than have to pay their higher health care costs caused by them not getting out and exercising because they didn't want to spend the cash or didn't have it to spend.

I find the very idea of pay to play will hinder the growth of the sport if it becomes the norm. Just because you pay more for something doesn't make it better. But for those who really feel better to pay, I've got some fine water to sell you for only $1 per glass - it springs forth every day from my kitchen sink.

[ptsawyer]

I have played dozens of courses in several states as well. Some of the best courses I have ever played are free to the public.

Free courses will always play an integral part in the sport of disc golf. I am not in any way stating that we need to charge fees at all courses, or elimnate the free ones.

Disc golf is great because there is virtually no barriers for new players to join the sport. Free courses offer casual players all they would ever need to enjoy disc golf. However, I believe the pinnacle of course design, something beyond even the Hudson Mills and Idlewild type courses, could be achieved if someone was willing to invest the money.

Not everyone would want to play there, but I know that I would.

I also agree with the previous post that an unfortunate side effect of free courses is a lot of people just use it as a place to drink and smoke pot, with the disc golf being a side effect to those things.

[JConnell]

Paying to play disc golf increases its legitimacy in the same way paying for a bottle of water at a fast food joint improves my dining experience. I look forward to pay-to-play disc golf in the same way I look forward to paying $7 bucks a pillow then next time I board an airplane.

Nail. Head.

Lets not forget that the reviews posted on this site are by users for users. While the OP has some valid points, its bad form to make blanket statements about how others should or should not interpret the pros/cons of a course as it pertains to their review.

[Three Putt]

Since the Regan-era, a new breed of public official has appeared in City management. The idea that providing places to play increases the quality of life making the area more attractive to live in and therefore justifies the expenditure from the tax base is slowly disappearing. More and more conversations about recreational areas have become "and how will this pay for itself" or even the dreaded "how will we make money off this?" At the same time, Police and Fire departments have become aggressive in asking for the newest "high-tech" equipment to use for public safety. I'm not saying that is wrong, but it costs money and squeezes the amount of tax money left to support parks and recreation. Many places are looking to the parks department to now turn a profit or be eliminated as non-essential. More and more things you have taken for granted will charge a fee, in the same way that you used to be able to call up and reserve a pavilion for nothing but now you have to pay a fee in most places. Anything that the Regan-disciples can figure out a way to charge for, they will. Parking. Fenced-in playgrounds with an admission fee. Pay-for-play disc golf. In some areas this is the trend, and it is only a matter of time before we get there.

[ZMan44]

When I read a review I want to know if a course is pay to play and if so, how much. This can be a con in certain circumstances. While I agree that the privatazation of courses might yield a well manicured and challenging course, it will not automatically cause such a stir in the disc golf community to earn a profit. In New England there are a lot of pay to play courses that are extremely nice and players keep them busy. Here in Tennessee, if I were to open a disc golf course on my own land, charge $5 per round ($8 for all day), no one would ever come. It might be the nicest, most often-mowed, challenging disc golf course in the SE and no one would ever play it. I don't mind paying to play every now and then, but given a choice in my area, I would always choose the local free course and I would guarantee that 98% of the disc golfers around here would as well.

[ptsawyer]

My original post was never intended to state that every course should be pay to play. There are a lot of free parks that I love.

My main point is that if the disc golf community was more open to the idea of pay to play, that I feel the end result woud be more high caliber professionally designed courses and less courses that are designed on the back of a napkin by a park ranger that has never thrown a disc.

What % of disc golf courses are in the good/great catergory? 15%-25%? I think this could be improved.

[basmith42]

You know.. I used to play a round or two of ball golf every friday (when the schedule permitted). I payed $12-30 per round. PLUS additional money for the beer cart or at the club house.

I've never paid to play at a DG course. Its not that I'm "that cheap". In fact, I've had plans to visit a number of pay-to-play courses when I've been out of town. Unfortunately, my job doesn't always let me follow through. When researching these courses, they rarely charge more than a few dollars per person for access to the park- not per round.

I'd gladly pay a few dollars for most courses I've played. However, i'd also have higher expectations. I would expect tee signs in good repair, markers leading to the next tee, and score cards/maps to be available.

[ptsawyer]

I'd gladly pay a few dollars for most courses I've played. However, i'd also have higher expectations. I would expect tee signs in good repair, markers leading to the next tee, and score cards/maps to be available.[/QUOTE]

These are the exact improvements I would like to see and that I think pay to play could provide on some courses.

Again, free public courses will always be the cornerstone of disc golf.

[Donovan]

OK here is the dope on pay-to-play verses free play but still get funding for the parks department in my opinion.

I call it needed advertising. Why can't the tee signs be sponsored? Why can't the baskets have some logos on them? Heck Innova is getting this free advertising and selling the basket for you to post their little billboard logos as it is. Marketing/Advertising is the funding the parks have been looking for. They just haven't gotten there yet. BUT THEY WILL.

The other thing that bothers me here is people worrying about paying for disc golf. I mean, do you really think it will get to the point where all course will be pay to play. I don't believe that is even remotely possible. The public parks departments would have to pay people to collect the money. I really don't think that in most public communities they want to shell out even minimum wage for 15 hours a day in the summer (and 12 hours in the winter in the lower states of the USA) just to try to break even. Most parks will always be free. They were made for the neighborhood. What kind of uprising will that cause? Plus who is going to drive around making sure kids are not jumping the imaginary fences to keep then from sneaking in a few holes on the other side of the park.

So pay-to-play, I say, "Bring it on!" I would love to play more ball golf course like conditions and would love to have a clubhouse with pool tables and yearly memberships!!! Bring in the alcohol and the smoothie bar! I love this idea. I hope it does happen. And when I feel like playing for free, the park down the road will be there waiting for me. :cool:

[Midnightbiker]

If you check prices, in most places its $6 per person to play Mini-Golf. If they are willing to pay that, $2-$3 dosen't seem like much. I would like to see some pay to play courses have disc rental to introduce more people to the sport.

[DGtourist]

When writing a review the site asks for PROS CONS and OTHER THOUGHTS. I would say that paying would have to be there as a con. Most people recognize that paying five bucks is not as big of a deal as missing baskets. But I don't see how it can be a "pro." Now if I was getting paid to play I'd have to says that's a "Pro." For most of us, paying is a minimal con, like "parking lot gets full" or something small. However a good review would state this fact, however small, somewhere.

[MattK]

...Fenced-in playgrounds with an admission fee. Pay-for-play disc golf. In some areas this is the trend, and it is only a matter of time before we get there.

I've seen this trend too, and it worries me quite a bit. The more private pay to play courses spring up, the more the powers that be who run the parks will get the idea. When "For Profit Industries, Inc." sets up a disc golf course in the neighborhood and charges per round, this tells the nearby parks officials that they should be charging as well, or at least sets the precedent that they could get away with charging.

The nearest disc golf to me is in a state park that charges a toll to enter during the summer. This toll is not collected after 6PM. Guess what time all the disc golfers show up at? The last thing we need is to give the politicians the idea that disc golf can be another cash cow for them. When that happens, the free public course will cease to be free.

[magictenor1]

I am with Mattk on this one. I play a lot of state parks where you pay to get in and that does not bother me but I would not like to see courses with major fees. I used to play ball golf and one of the things I like about DG is NO Carts and the Natural feel of most courses. I do not want courses that look like ball golf courses and I don't want to spend a lot of money to play.

[Texconsinite]

I think when they say Ball golf-like conditions, they mean well maintained and with amenities. I liked the idea of the clubhouse with alcohol, smoothie bar and pool tables. Someone should tell Chuck Kennedy, so they can get a smoothie bar at Highbridge, if they haven't already!

[basmith42]

I never thought of hole sponsership... that's a great idea. If anything it would make it easy for the park to offset the initial cost of installation. I bet signs on the Tees would be able to pay the cost of a course within 3 years. Not a bad ROA.

[Innovadude]

Pay to play at Hudson Mills is a joke. I won't be going back to my "HOME" course very often. 20$ parking on top of 5-6$ gas to get there and back, now 50$ a year extra. This is how I see it..if every course cost me...3$ to play as a fee, that'd cost over 2,100$ extra dollars for my road trip. Where am I going to get that? I play because it's relatively cheap. Not paying to play allows me to afford to get to a place to play, have discs, eat and sleep.

[Three Putt]

The problem we had was that we were not set up at all to sell hole sponsorship. We had a very small staff juggling responsibilities to manage a ton of programs. Disc golf was about 10% of my job April-October and about .0001% of my job the rest of the year, and I never had a "slow season" where I had extra time to go look for hole sponsors. Also, a Parks and Recreation degree teaches you a lot about public administration but not a lot about marketing and nothing about sales. Besides, I was a park guy. The whole point of having a park guy on the payroll was to have me develop recreation opportunities for the community. Having me wander around trying to sell ads on tee signs does not really fit that description.

So why it sounds like a great idea, it's not as easy done as said.

[Donovan]

The problem we had was that we were not set up at all to sell hole sponsorship. We had a very small staff juggling responsibilities to manage a ton of programs. Disc golf was about 10% of my job April-October and about .0001% of my job the rest of the year, and I never had a "slow season" where I had extra time to go look for hole sponsors. Also, a Parks and Recreation degree teaches you a lot about public administration but not a lot about marketing and nothing about sales. Besides, I was a park guy. The whole point of having a park guy on the payroll was to have me develop recreation opportunities for the community. Having me wander around trying to sell ads on tee signs does not really fit that description.

So why it sounds like a great idea, it's not as easy done as said.

While I said it was the way to get funding, I never said it was going to be easy. But if a park really wants to get some extra funding, you can sell the idea. You tell the local shops that for XX amount of money you get to support the park in your community and so forth. If you want me to write up a complete pitch, I would be glad to later on. The signs should be made, as I hate to say it....just like the ball golf course signs. That is where I got the idea. It is just a better move. I even suggested this for a pol hall to have signs above their tables once to earn money for new cloth...one month later, they were installing the cloth.

[basmith42]

I had no idea 10% of a parks department's time could go into a DG course.
Could you elaborate on what's involved for the park's department to run the courses? (no offense or baiting intended here)

Iwill make me appreciate the costs involved in running a course.

I've always thought that they were a relatively low-cost/low-fuss recreation activity for the parks department. What am I missing?

[Three Putt]

I had no idea 10% of a parks department's time could go into a DG course.
Could you elaborate on what's involved for the park's department to run the courses? (no offense or baiting intended here)

Iwill make me appreciate the costs involved in running a course.

I've always thought that they were a relatively low-cost/low-fuss recreation activity for the parks department. What am I missing?You are not missing anything. Disc golf took 10% of my time in the summer, 4-5 hours a week out of what was usually a 50 hr. work week. BUT...I was one of 7 full-time staff. Plus we had about 75 part-time or seasonal staff and about 20 contractual instructors, not counting any of the maintenance guys who were in a separate department. So it took nowhere near 10% of the departments time. Sorry if my post was misleading.

Disc golf took 10% of my time because I ran leagues, held 10-12 tournaments a year and we sold 8,000-10,000 disc/year. When I started there we sold 2,000 disc/year, and the extra 6,000-8,000 discs didn't sell themselves.

Anyway, if we had been like most departments you are right...it would take no time after the initial installation. Some Club would run the leagues and tournaments...the most we would have to do is mow the grass and empty the trash cans (if that!) Some local guys would sell discs out of their trunk in the parking lot (here is hoping that's ALL they are selling.) For most parks departments, disc golf courses are nothing more than adult playgrounds that you install and ignore until something breaks or somebody complains.

This is part of our problem with the parks and recreation industry. Somebody else gets to do the fun stuff...developing players, running events where people have fun, selling that sweet plastic...somebody else does all that. All the park gets to deal with is the stolen baskets and Mrs. Crotchety who calls her City Councilman twice a week to say she saw people smoking dope on that Frisbee golf course. For most park guys, dealing with the disc golf course means dealing with a problem.

[basmith42]

Thanks for clarifying, Three Putt...
I wish our local parks department was as involved as you were. sonds like you had some fun with it.

[ZMan44]

If someone is to open a privatized disc golf course, they are obviously looking for a profit. How much of a profit are you actually going to make from disc golf alone? Be serious. The guys at Marshall Street have an awesome facility...but they also run the Christmas tree farm on the land as well. The "for-profit" courses may be a trend in the future but we are looking at an immense amount of baby steps between here and there. In my area of the country, if you went to a bank and asked for a small business loan to develop a piece of land for disc golf. You could even tell them that you wanted to build a clubhouse and have nice amenities and facilities...and they would laugh you out of every bank in this state. You could always invest your own funds but most disc golfers don't have a solid $250,000 just to throw into a course. (in Tennessee that will buy you around 5 acres with a little left over to build some type of clubhouse, and install the course) The problem is that investors expect a return, and building and running a disc golf course with the intent of earning a profit is not going to return the initial investment. Like the scenario above, how long would it take to recoup that $250,000? The answer is a long, long, long time...if ever. And I would place the probability of "if ever" better than 80%. I analyze these deals for a living and this is not going to attract any investors. Like I said before, I could care less if I have to pay-to-play occasionally, but disc golf is a long way from becoming a private sector money-maker.

One thing about the point on mini-golf...Mini golf is about $5-$7 per round, but if there were a free course down the street that was nice too, but maybe had one less "castle" or "clown-Mouth", everyone would go to the free one and the other would go out of business quickly. Disc golf is no different. It is easier to introduce newbies when it is free. The main thing that we all must understand is that we all love disc golf and we want the sport to grow. But we must also understand that disc-golf is not currently "mainstream". Until that happens, a true pay-to-play course will be difficult to operate or manage, and I don't see anyone ready to jump into that investment. I agree that some incredible courses and designs could be engineered, but it is highly unlikely at this time.

Also, we have hole sponsorships here for our local public-park courses and it works well. The have advertising signs beside the teepads.

[oakley doakley]

Twin Parks in Austin is trying to be a premium pay-to-play disc golf course.(www.twinparkscountryclub.com/) But there not there yet. I plan to got Old English and Fun Farm in Indiana soon to see what there about. But I agree with ZMan44 in disc golf is not mainstream enough for a big money course to pay for it's self. I don't think just because more people begin to create a pay-to-play course that the free ones are going to go away. I will say that as far as reviewing a course to be pay-to-play and it being a con. You should be able to see were your money is going in the courses. If you paid to play and there is no course signs and crappy tee boxes and just "run of the mill" then in my opinion paying was a con. On the other hand u payed and they provided you with a nice color scorecard with map, all the tee signs are there, the tee pads are great, and there is a pro shop in the AC along with nice restrooms, a littler food bar, concessions that sell beer, soda, etc. Not a con to me. Most course don't have a pro-shop. Every course I have paid for except one had a pro shop. The one course that didn't you paid on the honor system it was only a buck anyhow. Paying to play and the free courses have there place. It's good for the game. The courses that are in State parks that you pay by going in wouldn't you have to do that if there wasn't a course there. I think that could be a con if the course was below average. Whats great about it is we all get to decide by paying-to-play or not. If you don't like don't go. I'll pay and if it is a waste of money it would not be the first time.(I have a Wheel from Quest and love casinos)

[Bensontbjj]

I think that it is ok within reason but I really like what the members at the Sinks (http://www.dgcoursereview.com/course.php?id=117) have been able to do to cover the costs. They have had hole sponsorships that got the money necessary to build a top notch course. There is a great deal of ownership by local members as has been mentioned in its course review but this gave them some much needed funds to jump start the course. As with any discussion item there will always be people on both sides with great personal vision.:D

[Donovan]

I'll pay and if it is a waste of money it would not be the first time.(I have a Wheel from Quest and love casinos)

OMG that is funny! :D NICE ONE!

[-HUC-]

I don't think people appreciate that pay to play courses are important for disc golf because they will convince people to build new disc golf courses. Most of the time people who put in courses almost never have that initially in mind when they get the land. They either have property that isn't used that much like the park service or used for only park of the year like ski runs or hunting land. People like Timmy Gill out of Minnesota have been pointing out the success of pay to play courses and succeeding in convincing land owners to install them to make a little money instead of letting the land just sit there.

It's true that if they don't put in a good course they aren't likely to make that much money, but the only thing you risk if you already have land is the cost of baskets and effort in getting the course made. Usually, if someone is smart about course design and is willing to put in the work they can put in a great course for everyone to enjoy and make a fee on the side. Why not?

Most people cringe at the idea of paying to play. Thats pretty natural. The reason I got into disc golf was it was cheap to play and still really fun. At the time, I didn't understand that there is a lot of work that gets done by volunteers to keep courses in good shape. If we could get facilities to manage their own land then that would allow local organizations focus more on running events and opening new courses than focus on the upkeep.

[adlacro]

I can somewhat understand pay to play on private property and some of the stae parks. I find it a shame to charge out of staters more than the locals. If you're driving somewhere,( I'll use Brandywine State Park in Wilmington, Delaware), and I live in PA. I get charged like 6 or 7 dollars as opposed to living somehwere in DE and get charged 3. I also like to throw two or three courses in a day as opposed to one course three times. Multiply the out of state fee three times. I'm out an Andrew Jackson instead of an Alexander Hamilton. I understand they need to make money, but it's an inconvience fee as opposed to a con about the dg course. Brandywine is still one of my all time favorite courses, but since DE changed their state park fee charging times, I have not played there since November 2007. The don't charge fees in like the dead of winter. I'm not driving 70 miles in 35-40 degree weather with the snow on the ground and the roads barely dry. If I'm sounding like a cheap heel, thanks for the compliment. Feedback always appreciated and not always taken with a grain of salt in an open wood.

[Donovan]

Don't get me wrong. I don't think it is OK to charge $20 for parking and $7 to play at some of these state parks. I do understand that they do it, because there are so very few choices. It is taking advantage of people in that situation.

However, charging $2-$5 for a private property course that is in great shape with really great holes, is totally worth it. I guess alot of this depends on what your other options are and where you live.

This is an emotional issue. There is no doubt there. If I were back at college and was broke 80% of the time, I would be screaming, "No way to pay!" Anyway, I think it is totally OK to have both as long as we have both.

[John Merhi]

Disc golf does not cost what ball golf does, not nearly as much. The costs of putting in a disc golf course and maintaining it are comparable to that of playground equipment and such. I can't imagine telling the boys who use the basketball hoops in the park that it will cost 'em five bucks a game. I don't think that the man who jogs around the track should be charged the "nominal fee" of only one dollar a lap (hope you brought your wallet). I don't want the little girl who climbs on the jungle gym to be charged by the climb or by the hour (can't afford to climb - tell your mommy to make more money). And I don't want the kids who just spent several weeks worth of allowance on their first golf discs to be charged what some people here consider a paltry sum of 2, 5, 10 or 15 dollars for the right to learn the game that all of us learned for free.

I agree 100%.

Another point for pay for play...we get labeled as a "stoner" sport because people who really don't care about playing but are looking for a place to go get high hang around our free courses smoking dope, vandalizing our equipment, making sure the neighbors see them being stupid and once and a while throw a hyzer drive. Once you charge those knuckleheads even a nominal fee, they will go get stoned behind the Gas 'N Sip and leave us alone. I'd gladly pay $2/day or $50/year to get rid of those guys.

WOW! I know I'm a cynic, but damn! That's a seriously cynical viewpoint and thankfully one that my 20 years of experience can't justify. We get labeled a "stoner" sport for many justifiable reasons. But vandalism and kids hanging out at the park is HARDLY the reason why. Kids who can afford weed can also afford the $2-5 admission price. Don't look to blame a fringe element for a "problem" that is clearly pervasive across all aspects of disc golf.

Lets not forget that the reviews posted on this site are by users for users. While the OP has some valid points, its bad form to make blanket statements about how others should or should not interpret the pros/cons of a course as it pertains to their review.


AB SO LUTELY!

[magictenor1]

State parks down here usually only charge 2 or 3 bucks and parking is free. If I had to pay $20 to park and then a fee to play I probably would not. When I have reviewed courses I have not factored in the pay element at all and have not even mentioned it but I think that is because the fee to get in the state parks is so low that I don't really think of those courses as play to pay. If a course did cost more I could certainly see that as a con as opposed to a course that was free.

[davetherocketguy]

FWIW...I have no problem paying to play BUT...Once you make me play then my standards go up based on how much I pay. Kinda like this (this is a very generalized list and subject to change):

$1 - $3: Most tee signs up with baskets in functioning shape.

$3 - $5: All tee signs (even temporary ones) and baskets up. Little to no trash. Concrete tee pads.

$5 - $20: Tee signs in very good shape. Zero trash. Mowed grass where appropriate. Decent landscaping (read: thin out the d*** schule).

$20 - $40: Very well landscaped - there better be pretty flowers. Very large concrete tee pads, a layout worthy of a championship caliber course and multiple tees. I expect rangers roaming the course enforcing the, "let smaller groups play thru" rule and making sure every one is having a good time.

$40+: There better be lots of free beer involved.

I have had (along with a friend of mine) bad experiences with one course in particular in the area so I have soured to the idea of paying to play. The park rangers have no problem driving their stupid little cart around making sure that everyone has their little bag tags showing proof of payment. However, they allow hordes (read 10 or more - as many as 18) play together in a single mass without enforcing the "allow smaller groups play thru" rule. Many tee signs are missing. Very few people have any clue regarding basic common DG courtesies inspite of the signs posted everywhere about it. The worst of it is, this is a county park in my county so my tax dollars are helping support this garbage.

I have had much better experiences at courses that are free.

-Dave

[PhattD]

Well said Dave. I don't mind paying if I get what I pay for. And if I'm paying $2 for all day it's only gotta be a little bit better but MUST be better otherwise why pay? As to why we get labeld as a stoner sport, I really think it's all the guys smoking weed. I could be wrong but... lol. On one of the course picnic tables someone wrote "Have a roach leave a roach. Need a roach take a roach." And someone actually left a roach there. lol I was laughing for 6 holes. Try that anywhere else and see if it works.

[MoPhunk]

I must be spoiled because we have 9 courses within 10 miles of my house all in public parks all free. Every course has signs up with concrete tee pads (except camden 2 but the course is not finished) Every sign has a sponser. I think that since i buy my disks in the cities i play they get the sales tax on that and moste of the time i buy some beer or gatorade sometimes gas. I don't think i would pay to play because of all the options around me and in my opinion it is a con. Let's not give these politicians and local leaders another reason to put their hands in my back pocket and take my hard earned money.

[ptsawyer]

[QUOTE=MoPhunk;5543]I must be spoiled because we have 9 courses within 10 miles of my house all in public parks all free. Every course has signs up with concrete tee pads (except camden 2 but the course is not finished)

The answer is YES!! you are spoiled. :)

Tell me where you live so I can move. I am from Toledo, OH and we really only have access to 2 courses.

[ShannonHG]

Paying to play disc golf increases its legitimacy in the same way paying for a bottle of water at a fast food joint improves my dining experience. I look forward to pay-to-play disc golf in the same way I look forward to paying $7 bucks a pillow then next time I board an airplane. If somebody wants to put up a course on private land - fine, he may charge what he wishes for it, and I will never play it. Every course I've played (and I've played some very nice ones) has been on public land and financed with public funding and donations from local organizations. I think these groups do a fine job nurturing the sport, and I don't think insisting it be a cash generator would help it at all, in fact, it would hurt the sport greatly.

I am generally a believer in people paying for the public resources that they use, but not when it comes to the very basics of a public park. Disc golf does not cost what ball golf does, not nearly as much. The costs of putting in a disc golf course and maintaining it are comparable to that of playground equipment and such. I can't imagine telling the boys who use the basketball hoops in the park that it will cost 'em five bucks a game. I don't think that the man who jogs around the track should be charged the "nominal fee" of only one dollar a lap (hope you brought your wallet). I don't want the little girl who climbs on the jungle gym to be charged by the climb or by the hour (can't afford to climb - tell your mommy to make more money). And I don't want the kids who just spent several weeks worth of allowance on their first golf discs to be charged what some people here consider a paltry sum of 2, 5, 10 or 15 dollars for the right to learn the game that all of us learned for free. I realize that parks cost money, but I'd rather have my taxes going to pay for people to get exercise for free than have to pay their higher health care costs caused by them not getting out and exercising because they didn't want to spend the cash or didn't have it to spend.

I find the very idea of pay to play will hinder the growth of the sport if it becomes the norm. Just because you pay more for something doesn't make it better. But for those who really feel better to pay, I've got some fine water to sell you for only $1 per glass - it springs forth every day from my kitchen sink.
If you refrain from playing any course because you're too cheap to give up 3 bucks to help out with the upkeep, that's your loss dude.
You will also find that you are missing out on some of the best disc golf has to offer.
City parks are funded by tax money we all pay. I don't think anyone should have to pay to play public courses either. If anything there should be a donation box set up that people can willingly chip in if they want to.

As the owner of a private course I designed and built myself, 14 years ago

(http://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=540) , I know exactly how much work goes into the regular maintenance and upkeep of a disc golf course.
Ptsawyer I commend you for starting this thread and agree 100 %.

With the price of fuel these days especially, it is almost mandatory for someone like me to charge a small fee to play their course. The money I take in just barely covers the fuel costs, but still doesn't even come close to reimbursing me for all the time I spend on the course and the maintenance of the equipment.
People who have the attitude that 3 dollars is too much to pay for a nice quiet round of golf in a serene private setting, have no idea what they are missing. I hope they enjoy the time spent waiting on crowds at the public courses they can play for free anytime. I also hope they don't have to incur the expense of having their head stitched up, because someone who just wandered onto the course with a brand new driver didn't know he was supposed to yell FORE when his errant throw went straight toward a group of people they were playing with.

Something a very experienced disc golfer (one o the very first) told me when I was being shy about going to pay to play here...
I was not wanting to charge money because I felt like people might feel less welcome and not want to play. Carlton Howard told me that it could also work just the opposite. Some people like himself, would feel more welcome to come and play any time if they were paying to do so and helping support the course. That is what changed my mind.

[MoPhunk]

[QUOTE=MoPhunk;5543]I must be spoiled because we have 9 courses within 10 miles of my house all in public parks all free. Every course has signs up with concrete tee pads (except camden 2 but the course is not finished)

The answer is YES!! you are spoiled. :)

Tell me where you live so I can move. I am from Toledo, OH and we really only have access to 2 courses.


I live in the Quad Cities in Illinois. We have:
IA SIDE:
Middle Park - Bettendorf, IA - 18 holes, signs and cement tee pads
Eastern Avenue - Davenport, IA - 18 holes, signs and cement tee pads
West lake Park - Davenport, IA - 24 holes, some signs and cement teepads
Devil's Glenn Park - Bettendorf, IA - 12 holes, signs and cement tee pads
IL SIDE:
Longview - Rock Island, IL - 18 holes, no signs and cement tee pads
Camden 1 - Milan, IL - 18 holes, signs and cement tee pads
Camden 2 - Milan, IL - 18 holes, no signs yet, and cement tee pads
Prospect Park - Moline, IL - 18 holes, signs, and cement tee pads
Buttterworth Park - East Moline, IL - 9 holes, signs and cement tee pads

If you're willng to drive 25 to 30 miles there are a lot more courses you can play.

[Rbuzz9]

i'd rather pay to play than play on some of the town courses i have seen where the town basically throws a bunch of ghetto baskets up (that are made out of used car tires and chain) in an open field with no tee markers. Obviously you can get creative and move the tees around - but you have to be the only one there - and it's still not the same as a course - and then again you can't when 40 Dungeons and Dragons people show up all dressed in black with capes with foam swords and shields and have some strange fencing tourney. I know i could take them all out with one toss of my Xcalibur but id rather not to hard time with an "aggravated assault with a disc charge." Most free courses are fine for me personally - i dont get out as much as i'd like - but 45 minutes away from where i live it's 5 dollars to play at Maple Hill - where they just held a PDGA event. Whens the last time anyone could play at a PGA course for less than $200 greens fees?

[Huff]

I can only think of a few course around here where you dont have to pay to play, and those are all on private land and only used by friends of the owners. All the others that are opent o the public are on private land as well and are pay to play. usually $3-5.00

Its the norm here.

[Rbuzz9]

5 bux is nothing - its funny when people won't shell out cheap money for a round of golf at a nice course. but they won't bat an eye at the $50 bartab they pickup after.

[justin]

I can't agree with PT and Rbuzz more.
If it's private property then you're lucky you're allowed to play at all. Even going to the movies is over $10 now. What else can you do for $5-10 which can last all day long nowadays?

I have to admit I've have very positive pay-to-play experiences. There's only one private course I've played (it was in western Mass) that I didn't feel measured up to what I'm used to paying for.

Here's a list of what you can normally expect on a pay-to-play course:
Disc Golfers only. -No dog walkers, kids running thru, soccer momes, etc.
Maintained fairways -Open holes are not overgrown simply because the parks people don't care.
Scorecards -Not always but far more oftenly available than at public.
Proshop -Not always but far more oftenly available than at public.
Basket maintenance -You know how sometimes there's that one dented or askew pole hole? Not usually the case at private courses.
Other Bonuses -Loaner discs, woodchips on the greens, allowed to drink (if that's your think)

Suck it up people. Disc golf is an incredibly inexpensive activity. More courses create more players. Partonize what's around. It helps us all in the long run. If you don't think the private course in your area is worth the money then tell the owner in a constructive way. I'm sure they will appreciate the input.

[Treewacker9]

I would welcome a pay for play facility in my locale. However, it would have to be a good course with interesting holes, at least 18. They would need to be regularly maintained,including mowing, course improvements, tree trimming, path grooming,etc... Also it would be good if they had a clubhouse where discs could be brought or rented. A snack shop & decent restroom facilities would also be preferred. I wouldn't mind paying $5/round or so to support this & it could reduce the number of people that don't make an effort to play seriously. I think the sport has now reached the popularity where it could become profitable to open more such facilities.

[Huff]

this is interesting to me. we have around 20 courses here in Maine (listed on this site) and of them all I believe only 1 is a free course, and its no wheres near me. We pay 4-6.00 for an all day pass on our courses. Most have some type of pro shop, and are fairly well maintained. And its only golfers out there:)

[iDisc]

pay to play is a "Con" because it is information that is helpful to sharing. it someone has the choice of going to courses they would choose the f2p one

[timg]

this is interesting to me. we have around 20 courses here in Maine (listed on this site) and of them all I believe only 1 is a free course, and its no wheres near me. We pay 4-6.00 for an all day pass on our courses. Most have some type of pro shop, and are fairly well maintained. And its only golfers out there:)

$4-$6 seems a bit steep if you like to bounce around courses like I do. I'll usually play the 3 or 4 near me in one day which would end up costing me $24 + gas to play in Maine. I guess it encourages multiple rounds at one course and the possibility that you'll buy some drinks there, etc.

pay to play is a "Con" because it is information that is helpful to sharing. it someone has the choice of going to courses they would choose the f2p one

If it's only a couple of bucks and one course is head and shoulders better than the other, I'd probably rather pay to play the good one.

[Huff]

$4-$6 seems a bit steep if you like to bounce around courses like I do. I'll usually play the 3 or 4 near me in one day which would end up costing me $24 + gas to play in Maine. I guess it encourages multiple rounds at one course and the possibility that you'll buy some drinks there, etc.



you're right, we do usually end up staying at one course for multiple rounds. We might hit 2 different courses in one day if its the weekend.

But these are courses on private land. Our choice is to pay to play, or not play since there anent any free courses. When its your only option...

I dont see it as a con at all. These people have taken valuable private land and taken up 15ish acres to make a course on it and open it up to the general public. And course design, baskets, maintenance, staff, gas etc are all things that cost $ to keep the course going. If we didnt pay, there wouldnt be a course to play on at all. Simple math really.

[sidewinding]

Pay to play is not a con and I'd rather pay $4.00 per gallon for gas than $1.00 per gallon. The less money you have the better off you are in the long run.

[DGtourist]

Pay to play is not a con and I'd rather pay $4.00 per gallon for gas than $1.00 per gallon. The less money you have the better off you are in the long run.

Give me your money and I'll help you with your long run outlook!

[Innovadude]

I have noticed that on the course reviews, virtually every course I have seen that has a "pay to play" fee has it listed as a "Con" in the review section, and that the scores tend to be somewhat reduced because of it. I find this somewhat odd and troubling.

Generally speaking, the cost to play these courses is less than $5 in my experience, often closer to $2 or $3. That is cheaper than a meal from McDonalds! Where else can you find any sort of entertainment at this level for this price? In virtually every case, this money goes for maintainence and improvement of the course, which is why pay to play courses such as Hudson Mills, in MI are some of the best in the US.

Seriously, as disc golfers, how cheap are we? I bet most of us are willing to shell out $20 for a new driver no problem, but when we are asked to help pay for the parks we use for our sport we label that as a negative? It makes no sense.

All courses are "pay to play" in some regard. Someone had to design and install the course, and the course also has to be maintined, whether it is through tax dollars, fundraising, or volunteers. Someone is paying. There is nothing wrong with asking the users of the course to help pay for it.

Pay to play courses are the only way that we are going to see new courses that are of extremely high quality, truly premium places to play such as the 48 holes in Hudson Mills I mentioned earlier. If the sport we love is going to continue to grow and evlove, we will need to become more welcoming to the pay to play concept.

Imagine how amazing a course could be if it had a modest fee of say $10-$15 for all you can play. I have no doubt in certain areas, you could maintain a profitable and absolutely beautiful 72 hole facility that rivals an actual golf course for this price. This is the direction I would like to see disc golf move towards, but it will only happen if disc golfers are willing to pay for it. We need to start seeing pay to play as a positive, and not a negative.

Hudson Mills was FREE until February, 2008. It is not great BECAUSE it is pay to play, that is a recent, slap-in-the-face addition.

[Doktor John]

I know many pay to play courses have monthly rates that break down the cost per day quite a bit...if I was in town all month, I'd buy a monthly pass for my home course...we also have a drawing every month for a free pass--every time you pay to play you get one ticket in the drawing...

[Disc_Pro]

Disc golf is growing and continues to grow, but it's not as big as other sports due to the lack of major sponsorship. Pay to play isn't going to cause the sport to 'break-through'. This sport needs major sponsorship, which will give us major exposure to the media.

[Marv Vega]

I don't mind paying a few bucks if the course is worth it. Most of the ones I've been to have been great courses and worth the money, but if it's just average then it's a waste of money. We play one pay to play course regularly that's kept up very well and have visited a couple of others this year that've been very good too.

[PhattD]

I'm amazed people are still arguing about this. Isn't it really very simple? Pay to play is a con for some people and not for others. If you are reviewing a pay to play course then give it points or take them away depending on how you feel about the cost to amenities ratio. Just explain why you rated it the way you did and then I will read it and laugh about how no one knows how to rate a course but me. ;)