tee shots over water

[dray]

I am a huge fan of the risk/reward contemplation that every golfer has to consider when they are on a tee box that faces water.The designer's goal is a throw over water that when executed properly assures a birdie,but risks a bogie versus a conservative tee shot that guarantees an easy approach for a three or an awesome deuce from 85 feet or more...how many are too many for an 18 hole course...2..3.?

[jhgonzo]

Depends on how the water comes into play. I'd have no issue with water being in play on EVERY hole, but I wouldn't want a 300-plus forced carry off every tee (can't think of a geographical location where that'd even be feasible unless you just went back and forth a 300-foot-wide pond 18 times!). If it's a water-heavy course, obviously variety will be needed as with any land feature like elevation and woods -- so a course where you had a long water carry, then maybe water to the right, then maybe a pond in a landing zone, small creek crossings, and so on, would be acceptable from a design perspective (albeit frustrating for most levels of players).

So to answer the original question, I wouldn't want to see more than 2 or 3 "max drive" carries (excuse the ambiguity) on a course, even if each one somehow managed to be unique in its own regard (i.e. a fountain in the middle of one, an optional bailout island or peninsula on another, etc.), simply for the fact that those particular risk/reward shots are not popular with most recreational players (and aren't executed with consistency every time, thus increasing the risk of lost plastic per round).

[atl scott]

Flyboy has a lot of water shots, and it's ranked #1 on the site. Holes 3, 4, 5, 6, 9, 14, 15, 16, 24, and 25 all have water in play in one form or another although you only have to throw over water on holes 3, 5, and 25. Variety and fairness are key.

[Cgkdisc]

Here are the guidelines regarding water carries for different skill levels:
http://www.pdga.com/documents/design-skill-level-guidelines

[dray]

the tee shots would be over a creek that is about 35-40 feet across...depth of about 18-24 inches..

[Skunk]

the tee shots would be over a creek that is about 35-40 feet across...depth of about 18-24 inches..



I would like this if the tee was at least 100' away from the creek and the basket somewhere on the other side.

[jhgonzo]

I'd put the tee well over 200 feet from the close edge of the creek if it's 35-40 across...if you have something like 250' from the tee to the close bank, it'd be almost 300 to cross the creek, so that'd force the "max drive right around 300" crowd (a huge proportion of recreational golfers) to really think if they wanted to go for it, especially if the opposite side of the bank has trees or foliage with potential for knock-down into the drink even with a good full-power shot.

Edit: Regarding Chuck's post above, would the PDGA guidelines frown on such a design? With only a narrow creek in play, it's not a forced carry but a decision shot...do I go for it, or lay up?

[Cgkdisc]

Depends on the distance to pin and other side of the water. If it's intended as a blue level hole that's 350 total with the far side of the creek at 300, it would be adequate but not a good hole lengthwise for a par 3 since it's probably in the gray zone distance (depending on foliage). If it was for Red level, that same hole would probably be just fine as a par 4 (since the creek is that shallow). If you want to have a longer carry to the far side, what you do is have the shoreline be on an angle to the tee. A hole that's 300 feet where the pin is on the other side of the creek from the tee does this pretty well for blue level even if the creek is pretty straight presuming you can land anywhere short of the pin on the other side if you want to play safe.

[jhgonzo]

If it was for Red level, that same hole would probably be just fine as a par 4 (since the creek is that shallow).

I never realized that water depth was actually a contributing factor to determining par. Interesting and potentially useful bit of info!

...but could you expand a bit on the philosophy, unless I'm totally misreading what you wrote there. :confused:

[Cgkdisc]

From the Hole Notes section of the PDGA Course Design Guidelines:

"No player throwing from the shortest (or only) tee on a hole should ever be "forced" to throw over
water that is normally greater than 18" deep (50cm). Design an alternate flight path (usually to the left) that gives player the option to not cross water. Any normally dry trenches or bodies of water under 18" deep that are regularly in play should have safe paths down and out to be able to throw and/or retrieve discs safely."

So a 350 hole is probably par 4 for red level (independent of the creek) and this creek may be shallow enough to meet the recommended max depth guideline. If it was a murky, 3 ft deep creek, then a forced crossing of the creek would not meet the red level hole guidelines.

[bwiese]

I like water, it makes you chose between risk and reward if properly designed. Hole 7 at hawk hollow is a great example. The tee shot is 250-300 feet to get across the water(a 40 ft creek). For those not sure of clearing they can lay up and stay safe and dry. The hole is another 600+ feet long so laying up makes it a harder hole, but getting wet is even worse.

I love water holes like this where it produces scoring seperation for either good or bad shots or choices.

I hate loosing plastic so if the water is a shallow creek or lake that allows you to retrieve your disc I say bring it on.

[atl scott]

I like water, it makes you chose between risk and reward if properly designed. Hole 7 at hawk hollow is a great example. The tee shot is 250-300 feet to get across the water(a 40 ft creek). For those not sure of clearing they can lay up and stay safe and dry. The hole is another 600+ feet long so laying up makes it a harder hole, but getting wet is even worse.

I love water holes like this where it produces scoring seperation for either good or bad shots or choices.

I hate loosing plastic so if the water is a shallow creek or lake that allows you to retrieve your disc I say bring it on.

I saw Feldberg's putt for a 3 spit out on that hole at VTI one year. But hey, I've aced that hole, so.. you know.

[dray]

I am actually contemplating a tee shot that would require most of the flight over the water,that is the water would run the length of the hole.The tee shot would provide a RHBH over the water as well as an alternative anny or flick to the left that would be all over dry land.

[bradharris]

I am actually contemplating a tee shot that would require most of the flight over the water,that is the water would run the length of the hole.The tee shot would provide a RHBH over the water as well as an alternative anny or flick to the left that would be all over dry land.

So the tee is on one bank with the basket on the opposite bank up/down stream?

I like this a lot, particularly if there's not heavy foliage along the shore. It provides safe options for well executed shots with risk increasing (smaller relative landing area) as you go for greater reward (closer to the pin).

[bwiese]

I saw Feldberg's putt for a 3 spit out on that hole at VTI one year. But hey, I've aced that hole, so.. you know.

My friend Vince Whorly beat him at the VTI. First hole they played was 17 and dave f. Threw hyzer out safe and my friend threw a flick roller 45 feet from the pin. He missed the putt and pushed that hole, but feldberd was pretty impressed off the tee.

[bwiese]

I am actually contemplating a tee shot that would require most of the flight over the water,that is the water would run the length of the hole.The tee shot would provide a RHBH over the water as well as an alternative anny or flick to the left that would be all over dry land.

Sounds like a fun/good hole as long as there is a choice for a safe play that makes it harder to pick up a stroke.

[DavidSauls]

I think that's what the original post was about. Not holes with a forced water carry, but with a choice of a water carry to save a stroke (if successful), or a safe dry route for the faint of heart, or arm.

[mashnut]

I am actually contemplating a tee shot that would require most of the flight over the water,that is the water would run the length of the hole.The tee shot would provide a RHBH over the water as well as an alternative anny or flick to the left that would be all over dry land.

I love holes with options like that. There's one on the Steady Ed course at the IDGC with a wider hyzer option over the water that gives you a chance at a 2 or easy 3 and a tighter anny line that's safe but more difficult to 3 and almost impossible to 2.

[Paulie]

bwiese: I hate loosing plastic so if the water is a shallow creek or lake that allows you to retrieve your disc I say bring it on.

That.

[Martin Dewgarita]

Hole 16, portage lakes, OH. Love it. 250' Hyzer route (RHBH) over the water or 250' anny route through thick trees, much more difficult to execute but takes the water out of play if you so choose. Very nice, well designed hole.

Hole 15 Hidden Lake, St Augusta, MN. Scares the crap out of me, I enjoy it, but can you carry 350' of water? If not, there's not much option for a bail out, anything around the right side of the pond is thick crap that will add several strokes to your score. Poorly designed hole? A weaker arm in a tourney would probably say so. Casual rounds, if you can't hack it, play the shorts, or skip this course as it will eat you alive.

[thrembo]

NPC has some water hazard holes now. Very minor chance of going in from the Am set up, but more risk/reward style water action from the pro set up. Something for everone!

[DavidSauls]

Hole 15 Hidden Lake, St Augusta, MN. Scares the crap out of me, I enjoy it, but can you carry 350' of water? If not, there's not much option for a bail out, anything around the right side of the pond is thick crap that will add several strokes to your score. Poorly designed hole? A weaker arm in a tourney would probably say so. Casual rounds, if you can't hack it, play the shorts, or skip this course as it will eat you alive.

I'll bet that's even scarier with a 25-mph headwind.

This is another design consideration on long forced carries (over water, or anything else for that matter). A tough shot on a calm day might be an impossible shot on a windy day.

[simpletwist]

I think gonzo pretty much summed it up.

Como Park here in WNY has water coming into play on almost half of the holes. But the variety of shots with the creek and pond that the course plays through makes all of those holes challenging as well as different. There are only 2, three if you've got the arm, that you must drive directly over water. Then its either to the right or left or in the case of the 18th basket directly behind.

[harold king]

from tee pad looking at basket:popcorn:

[Martin Dewgarita]

I think gonzo pretty much summed it up.

Como Park here in WNY has water coming into play on almost half of the holes. But the variety of shots with the creek and pond that the course plays through makes all of those holes challenging as well as different. There are only 2, three if you've got the arm, that you must drive directly over water. Then its either to the right or left or in the case of the 18th basket directly behind.

I made it all the way to 18 before losing my second teebird in as many days. Yellow x-out, its yours if you find it. I fished for half an hour

[denny ritner]

not a fan of long, forced carries over water for a number of reasons, the primary one being that it's all black and white. a shot that diagonals over water and affords players a continuum of grey in their choice of how aggressive a line to take is much more interesting.

[mashnut]

I love those kinds of shots where it's totally up to the player to decide how much to bite off. You can play the safe straight across or go for the glory with a bigger risk. The big par 5 along the lake at Winthrop offers that, you have to decide when to go for the green (or whether to go the long way around and avoid the water altogether).

[BradC]

Finding a water crossing that allows disc retrieval on a blown shot is a God-send.

None of that sissy safe route stuff here, make the carry or lose the disc is what I am used to...

Hole 7, Jordan Park

http://www.dgcoursereview.com/course_pics/32/ff61b97b.jpg

[denny ritner]

Finding a water crossing that allows disc retrieval on a blown shot is a God-send.

None of that sissy safe route stuff here, make the carry or lose the disc is what I am used to...

Hole 7, Jordan Park

http://www.dgcoursereview.com/course_pics/32/ff61b97b.jpg

That's a prime example of what I don't like. While those shots are pretty,they are poor uses of hazards with great potential. For many players the water isn't really in play. For many players the water is either a guaranteed lost disc or a mandatory skipped hole. For a few players, whose max distance is the required carry + a few feet, the hole will separate a good shot from a bad shot for them.

Bottom line, for 90% of players the hazard is either overly punitive or doesn't come into play at all and doesn't present any grey area for true risk/reward strategizing.

[Cgkdisc]

There's a shorter tee (first drop zone?) on that hole and another drop zone on the other side. You could let the player who can't throw across from the shorter tee play from the really short DZ playing their 3rd shot.

[Paulie]

Hard for me to judge D in a picture but I'd go straight across on Harold's and lay up on the near bank of Brad's.

[ironmon]

30-40 feet can make a big difference
layup to the front of the water and throw across

[1978]

Lol, If I had a nickle for every layup shot that I have seen go too far and end up in the hazard. It is likely that if you are not able to throw across a 220' water carry...you aren't accurate enough to layup 60 of the 70' you have before the hazard. Cedar Hills in Raleigh is like this. I have seen plenty of people layup into the pond on hole 7 (I think)?

[DanJon]

vista del camino (shelly sharpe) in scotsdale, az. LOTS of tee shots over water. most of them do offer a safe route over dry land but the risk/reward is worth it to just go for it.

[LoPan12]

I'll have to check back, don't have time to read this thread, but it looks interesting. On my home course (Buckhorn @Harris lake), there are 6 holes with water in play.
Two (8, 15) involve water behind the tee, to quash/scare 'go for the ace run' delusions.
One (17) involves a 300' foot hole with a 100' wide pond. With the basket on the far bank, so you try to go for it (low ceiling, no hyzer/anny lines) or lay up. But its a pond, so you CAN play around on the bank...
One (10) has a long tee that is 270' over an inlet of the lake, you HAVE to throw over water. But the short tee allows for no over-water play (which, incidently, I've lost more discs on...).
Two (9, 11) involve playing along the bank. They can both be done without going over water, but to birdie, you need to. They are fun holes, and even though I've played them many many times, I still struggle with what to do, and to do it right often...

[sloppydisc]

I'm thinking pond hole at Buckhorn is longer than you think. Either that or I am a noodle-armed pansy-ass.

Oh yeah, I am a noodle arm...

[Mr Mirth]

How many is too many again? I rather enjoy lots of water.

My personal course sports seven of nine holes with water in play, most being over it and varying in length from 200' to 320'.

A few examples for fun:

[Brall]

How many is too many again? I rather enjoy lots of water.

My personal course sports seven of nine holes with water in play, most being over it and varying in length from 200' to 320'.

A few examples for fun:


w0w, the second one looks scary!

[Mr Mirth]

w0w, the second one looks scary!

To be sure ... don't carry 300' downhill and you're wet. Fade too soon and the backside of the damn is rough. Turn too much and trees knock you down; wet. Too long and there's an OB fence 15' beyond the pin to the right. Yeah, it's scary ... but fun!

[Mr Mirth]

Here's a rag tag overview of the course (I intend on doing a "walk through" thread):

[dray]

Wow!!..thanks to all of those who posted...it was very helpful

[Clempson13]

hole 9... lakewood king in Seattle... i've lost 2 disc there. best advice i can give you is ignore the distance; thats what kills you. you'll end up nose upp'ing the disc into water. when i threw flat i was on an ace line for the basket.

[Sadjo]

One of my favorite water holes is #12 at Chattooga Bell Farm. From the long tee in a straight line the near water's edge is 220-240'. The far edge (to carry) is 295-315' from the tee. The length differences is the difference from measuring with a wheel versus measuring with a GPS.

The basket is 475' or so from the tee. If you decide to play over land the basket is about 550' or so away...with the distance to the corner (giving a 'clear' look at the basket) is about 340'.

The hole plays down hill from the tee to the pin. The corner is lower than the pin so if you're playing the long way around the 2nd shot may well be an uphill shot.

This hole gives players several options from both the long and the short tees from going for it, laying up or turning the corner.

[Midnightbiker]

This is hole 17 at Jack Brooks Park, on the Cedar Hills course (two courses in park). The hole is over 400ft, and I believe its at least 280ft to clear the water. Not seen in the picture, to the right, is some land, that you can throw to that is only about 230ft across. I have lost two discs on this hole, because the wind caught them, and dropped them in the water.

http://i226.photobucket.com/albums/dd166/Midnightbiker/hole17atjackbrooks.jpg

[brettricewku]

http://i1192.photobucket.com/albums/aa334/brettricewku/Roane_hole_12-1045x729.jpg

This one comes to mind. This is hole one at Roane County Park in Tennessee. It is an easy 300 feet over the water. Very cool looking shot to bomb it over the water with a big hyzer. During the summer the water isnt as high and there is a bank if you cant make it all the way there.

[mashnut]

Looks lime a really fun shot, though I don't see a safe option for beginners to avoid losing discs.

[jongoff09]

I think shots where the water is parallel to the path to the basket are tougher and make the hole more interesting than just a forced carry.

Holes 1, 3, 13, 14, and 18 at Russellville DGC (http://www.dgcoursereview.com/course.php?id=2813&mode=ci) are like this:
http://www.dgcoursereview.com/course_pics/2813/0772f558.jpg

[Sadjo]

I agree with the part about playing along side of water...that ads an interesting element. I think I've lost more discs to holes that play along water than ones that shoot over water. A small creek can add an effect of islands or playing with the mental aspect more than anything else.

[Brall]

I am a huge fan of the risk/reward contemplation that every golfer has to consider when they are on a tee box that faces water.The designer's goal is a throw over water that when executed properly assures a birdie,but risks a bogie versus a conservative tee shot that guarantees an easy approach for a three or an awesome deuce from 85 feet or more...how many are too many for an 18 hole course...2..3.?

for me i don't have a specific number that says that "3" is too much but "2" is fine. for me, i don't mind a bit of risk, i just don't want to risk too much since i'm not that great. so one hole with a LOT of risk might be too much but 5 holes with very low risk might be just right.

this one is spooky!

http://www.dgcoursereview.com/course_pics/1323/da30c176.jpg?rand=3497

map (http://www.dgcoursereview.com/course_files/1323/a7b294cd.pdf)