playable water?

[urwatuh8]

I'm throwing at a hole on a crest, with a lake behind it. There's a pretty strong headwind. I throw a floating disc (a Merc as it were) over the hill out of sight. By the time I get over the hill, my disc is floating right at the edge of the lake. What probably happened was the disc landed in the water, and floated ashore. But no one saw that. The current lie at edge of the shore is certainly playable (I don't mind getting my boots wet). There was no sign indicating the lake is OB. Do I get a penalty or not?

[AdamH]

Large bodies of water like lakes are always OB to the best of my knowledge, at least I've never seen them marked any other way. So unless the disc is touching something in bounds I would think you'd get a penalty.

[GLong]

as long as the disc is touching something that is in bounds, i think you're good to go

[ElementZ]

Well, if it was floating, I'd argue that the disc was not 'at rest' and you can play it from the shore.

So, if a disc is stuck in a tree, but you don't see it, then it falls 30 seconds later when a gust of wind comes, it's also playable. I'm pretty sure it's the same idea, right?

I haven't read the official rules yet though, so there's a ton of people more qualified to answer this than me.

[urwatuh8]

Large bodies of water like lakes are always OB to the best of my knowledge, at least I've never seen them marked any other way. So unless the disc is touching something in bounds I would think you'd get a penalty.

Well, there weren't actual hole signs, just posts with hole numbers on them next to the tee. It's a pretty new course.

[S.Cann]

If it's touching inbounds it doesn't matter how it got there (even if it floated there). Who's to say it didn't roll down the hill to the edge of the water and stop?

[urwatuh8]

Well, if it was floating, I'd argue that the disc was not 'at rest' and you can play it from the shore.

Well one side of the disc was resting atop some grass on the shore, the other side was still bobbing up and down in the current.

[GLong]

So, if a disc is stuck in a tree, but you don't see it, then it falls 30 seconds later when a gust of wind comes, it's also playable. I'm pretty sure it's the same idea, right?

it would be if the 2m rule is not in effect. if 2m is in effect, i think not. if the disc had come to rest in the tree, then it would automatically give you a stroke. i guess it would come down to if anyone saw it fall from the tree, and how high the branches were. on most trees with branches large enough to hold a disc, they are over 2m from the ground. the main exception i can think of are some kinds of bushy evergreens where the branches basically start at the ground.

[scarpfish]

If the disc is no longer moving under its own power, it is considered "at rest". If you throw 20 feet out into a pond or river and the disc floats to shore on the power of the water current, then sorry, but your lie is still 20 feet out in the water.

Of course, the kicker here is that your group has to be in agreement that the disc was no longer under its own power by the time it reached the shoreline.

[bradharris]

Well one side of the disc was resting atop some grass on the shore, the other side was still bobbing up and down in the current.

Unless there was some sort of very strong current, it's very hard for a floating disc to climb back onto land. So if one side was on land, it's pretty safe to say that it came to rest there. You can then mark one-meter in from the OB line (shore) and throw from there. Assuming the lake itself is actually OB, you cannot wade in and throw from there, all of your supporting points must be in bounds.

[DavidSauls]

(1) Question of whether the water is O.B. Strictly speaking, it's only O.B. if the TD or the course map has designated it as such. However, it's a pretty good rule of thumb if you're playing casually that a body of water like that is entirely O.B., right up to the edge, even the "playable" shallows.

(2) Floating. A disc is "at rest" when it's floating, even if still being moved by the wind or waves. If you saw it floating offshore, it would be O.B., no matter where it ended up.

(3) But you can only call what you see. If your only evidence is the disc at rest, touching shore, I think you have to go with that.

[urwatuh8]

Unless there was some sort of very strong current, it's very hard for a floating disc to climb back onto land.

It hadn't climbed onto land. The grass was right at the shore edge and the disc was leaning against it. The entire bottom of the rim was touching water.

[ChrisKramer]

It hadn't climbed onto land. The grass was right at the shore edge and the disc was leaning against it. The entire bottom of the rim was touching water.

Out.

[412Disc]

If you can throw from a lake, we say go ahead. No penalty

[krupicka]

It hadn't climbed onto land. The grass was right at the shore edge and the disc was leaning against it. The entire bottom of the rim was touching water.

It doesn't matter if it is touching water. The only thing that matters is if part of the disc is in bounds.

[DavidSauls]

Still not clear from the description, whether it's just blades of grass extending into the pond, or if it's grassy land on the end of the pond.

In the former, if the pond is O.B., I think the O.B. line is the edge where water meets land, and is a vertical plane. Grass blades or other vegetation extending over water would still be O.B., unless you can consider them a playing surface, which seems doubtful. (Water does not always create an ideally precise O.B. line).

As for an earlier question of whether a floating disc can float ashore, at least in part to be inbounds, current isn't likely to do it but a sufficient wave can. (Only inbounds if you didn't see it happen, of course).

[TmCHILLfromCEDARHILL]

I have to agree with some points and disagree with some points. The lake line of ob is a verticle line that if you push your disc straight down, would it indeed sink. If so you are OB, if there is some piece of land or rock smashed into mud that the edge of the disc is sitting on and when you push straight down and your disc does not sink, you are In bounds. Also, if you throw a shot into a tree and it falls before you mark it/find it you are in bounds as long as you found it in time. If you lost it and didnt find it for a few minutes and decide to Re-tee you can take a provisional, and if your disc falls before you throw from your second teeshot(4th stroke), you are in bounds and no penalty stroke is to be given!

it doesnt matter if it came to rest ob or not, the question is "where is it when you marked it?" If you marked your shot under the spot in the tree where you came to rest and it falls as you release your mini, you will still be stroked for the OB penalty.

[bradharris]

it doesnt matter if it came to rest ob or not, the question is "where is it when you marked it?" If you marked your shot under the spot in the tree where you came to rest and it falls as you release your mini, you will still be stroked for the OB penalty.

Actually, based on the wording of the rules, once you arrive at the disc, you're penalized. I believe the intent of this is to allow for border cases where it's unclear from a distance if it's above two meters. If it falls before you can measure it, you're good.

D. No penalty shall be incurred if the disc falls, unassisted by a player or spectator, to a position less than two meters above the playing surface before the thrower arrives at the disc. The thrower may not delay in order to allow the position of the disc to improve.

[Cgkdisc]

TmCHILLfromCEDARHILL - If you lost it and didnt find it for a few minutes and decide to Re-tee you can take a provisional, and if your disc falls before you throw from your second teeshot(4th stroke), you are in bounds and no penalty stroke is to be given!

You can't throw a provisional for a potential lost disc after the 3 minutes has passed. It's now officially lost even if it drops out while you're walking back to retee. You can throw a provisional from the tee before you start looking when you think your disc might be lost to save time if indeed you can't find your disc. If you do find your disc and your lie is terrible, you cannot use your provisional if you decide you would like an optional rethrow. The provisional can only be used if the disc is actually lost. You have to go back and retee for your optional rethrow.

[Brall]

just fyi

803.03 Marking the Lie
A. After each throw, the thrown disc must be left where it came to rest until the lie is established by the placing of a marker. This can be done by placing a mini marker disc on the playing surface between the hole and the disc, directly in line with the hole, on the line of play, touching the thrown disc. A player may instead choose, without touching or repositioning the thrown disc, to use the thrown disc as the marker. The marker may not be moved until the throw is released. A marker inadvertently moved prior to the throw shall be returned to its correct location.

B. A player is only required to mark the lie with a mini marker disc when repositioning the lie under the rules. This includes the following rules: out-of-bounds, disc above or below the playing surface, lost disc, optional rethrow, relocated for relief, interference, or repositioning the lie within 1 meter of the out-of-bounds line.

C. If the thrown disc comes to rest in-bounds but within one meter of an out-of-bounds line, the lie may be relocated to any point on a one-meter line that extends perpendicularly from the nearest point on the out-of-bounds line, and passes through the center of the thrown disc. This holds true even if the direction takes the lie closer to the hole. See the following sections for other considerations in marking a thrown disc:
(1) Relocated for relief - 803.05 B, C
(2) Interference - 803.07 A, B
(3) Above or below the playing surface - 803.08 A, B
(4) Out-of-Bounds - 803.09 B
(5) Lost Disc- 803.11 B

D. The Rule of Verticality: The out-of-bounds line represents a vertical plane. Where a player's lie is marked from a particular point within one meter of the out-of-bounds line pursuant to the rules, the one-meter relief may be taken from the particular point upward or downward along the vertical plane.

E. If the thrown disc breaks and comes to rest in more than one piece, the largest piece, as agreed to by a majority of the group or an official, is deemed to be the thrown disc.

F. A disc thrown in water shall be deemed to be at rest once it is floating or is moving only by the action of the water or the wind on the water.

G. A player shall receive a warning for the first violation of a marking rule if observed by two or more players of the group or an official. One penalty throw shall be assessed for each subsequent violation of any marking rule during the round if observed by two or more players of the group or an official.

803.09 Out-of-Bounds
A. A disc shall be considered out-of-bounds only when it comes to rest and it is clearly and completely surrounded by the out-of-bounds area. A disc thrown in water shall be deemed to be at rest once it is floating or is moving only by the action of the water or the wind on the water. See section 803.03 F. The out-of-bounds line itself is considered out-of --bounds. In order to consider the disc as out-of bounds, there must be reasonable evidence that the disc came to rest within the out-of-bounds area. In the absence of such evidence, the disc will be considered lost and the player will proceed according to rule 803.11B.

B. A player whose disc is considered out-of-bounds shall receive one penalty throw. The player may elect to play the next shot from:
(1) The previous lie as evidenced by the marker disc or, if the marker disc has been moved from an approximate lie, as agreed to by the majority of the group or an official; or (2) A lie that is up to one meter away from and perpendicular to the point where the disc last crossed into out-of-bounds, as determined by a majority of the group or an official. This holds true even if the direction takes the lie closer to the hole; or (3) Within the designated Drop Zone, if provided. These options may be limited by the tournament director as a special condition (see 804.01).

C. The Rule of Verticality. The out-of-bounds line represents a vertical plane. Where a player's lie is marked from a particular point within one meter of the out-of-bounds line pursuant to the rules, the one-meter relief may be taken from the particular point upward or downward along the vertical plane.

D. If the in-bounds status of a disc is uncertain, either a majority of the group or an official shall make the determination. If the thrower moves the disc before a determination has been made, the disc shall be considered out-of-bounds, and he or she shall proceed in accordance with 803.09 B counting all throws made prior to the determination of the in-bounds status of the original lie. If a player other than the thrower moves the disc before a
determination has been made, the disc shall be considered in-bounds, and play for the thrower and the mover of the disc shall proceed under the rules of interference, 803.07 B and C.

[DavidSauls]

@tmchill....

A disc stuck in a tree is not out-of-bounds. A different rule applies (if in effect). The rules and penalties are similar, but not the same, and mixing them together further muddles the discussion.

[DSmith]

"D. If the in-bounds status of a disc is uncertain, either a majority of the group or an official shall make the determination. If the thrower moves the disc before a determination has been made, the disc shall be considered out-of-bounds, "

Also I don't think the "blade of grass" rule applies anymore for ruling a disc in-bounds by touching something hanging out of bounds.

[Cgkdisc]

DSmith - Also I don't think the "blade of grass" rule applies anymore for ruling a disc in-bounds by touching something hanging out of bounds.
It never did...