Pin Placements: How many is too many?

[djschnabel]

My brother and I just returned to Minnesota from a quick disc golf trip in Kansas City. We were able to enjoy a couple of the courses in town during our short (one-day) trip, including Cliff Drive, Water Works, and both Roseville courses.

While we enjoyed the courses we played, one thing we noticed is the abundance of multiple pin placements on Cliff Drive, WW, and Roseville Up Top. In Minnesota, this feature is used on relatively few courses, and while it's a feature which I think is beneficial for almost all courses, the use of it on some holes in KC was beyond excessive. I don't recall specifically which hole on RV Up Top it was, but there were a few holes where not two, not three, but seven and eight pin placements were available. WTH? I appreciate the fact that some holes are long enough to warrant more pin placements than typically humanly possible, but seven? EIGHT? And how different will a semi-open hole play when two or three pin placements are within thirty feet of each other?

[Cygnus]

2 or three is good changes thing s up. What the play was saying I find pointless

[thrembo]

I prefer one pin placement, and multiple tee pads.

[codyroberts18]

At my home course, there are a couple pin placements. I think that 2-3 is plenty with any more than that being too much. The reason I say this is because of an experience I have had. A park in Atlanta was recommended to me by multiple people so we decided to check it out. This park had 4 and maybe 5 pin placements. This is great for the people who live there, which I guess to most people is all that matters, but it poses somewhat of a problem for travelers. When we played this park, wishing it was in the longest postition, we were disappointed as it was in the shortest so we kind of wasted a trip. My home course which has 2 on most with 3 on a couple is good because both positions are hard. Not an easy and a hard, but two difficult positions that allow anyone coming through the area to play a great course no matter the position.

[Jay Dub]

I prefer one pin placement, and multiple tee pads.
^^^ This because of that v v v v.
At my home course, there are a couple pin placements. I think that 2-3 is plenty with any more than that being too much. The reason I say this is because of an experience I have had. A park in Atlanta was recommended to me by multiple people so we decided to check it out. This park had 4 and maybe 5 pin placements. This is great for the people who live there, which I guess to most people is all that matters, but it poses somewhat of a problem for travelers. When we played this park, wishing it was in the longest postition, we were disappointed as it was in the shortest so we kind of wasted a trip. My home course which has 2 on most with 3 on a couple is good because both positions are hard. Not an easy and a hard, but two difficult positions that allow anyone coming through the area to play a great course no matter the position.

[codyroberts18]

The other courses we had a chance to play the next day had 4 tees, 1 great placement. That was awesome because we could play what the pros played, which was what was expected at the other course.

[WorldsCoolestGuy]

The more variety in pin placements, the more I'm going to want to play the course again because it can change up the course in many different ways to keep a local course interesting. Multiple teepads can get costly.

[mashnut]

Morley field in San Diego has an abundance of pin placements, up to 8-10 on some holes. The pins are changed weekly, so you constantly get to play a new course, but it nearly always plays the same difficulty overall. I always looked at the variety as a positive for that course.

[weeman]

In BG, multiple pin placements are a rarity sadly whereas in the Nashville area, they are fairly common. Cedar Hill has at least three sleeves per hole which are changed every two weeks (I think) will most all the surrounding courses have at least a pair of placements per hole (Seven Oaks, Sharp Springs, Sanders Ferry, any other course with an S in the name...). Think after some redesign at Seven Oaks that combined two holes, the one that existed now has 7 placements with each one requiring a different type of shot. I'm all for it if it provides a different type of shot/challenge. Otherwise, what's the point really.

[djschnabel]

The more variety in pin placements, the more I'm going to want to play the course again because it can change up the course in many different ways to keep a local course interesting. Multiple teepads can get costly.

This is exactly how I feel, but as a previous responder said, when you're traveling (which we were) it's more difficult to determine what kind of a course you'll end up playing. I do agree that excessive multiple pin positions are desirable for local players, but the line has to be drawn somewhere.

[Smcneil]

The course I play league at has 2 pins per hole and 2 tee pads per hole so at the end we have 4 different shot at 1 hole

[Fishy]

Cottonwood has anywhere between 3-8 per hole, sometimes they use other holes pin placements to change it up. Also it seems to change every few days. Widefield has about 4 per hole and most holes have 2 tee pads, these change about every month or 2. Jellystone has 2 placements/hole. It's nice to have multiple options and as long as the course can handle it. It is cheap to put in a different placement.

[New013]

I guess it depends on how it's done. Cedar Hill in Nashville has 4-5 per hole but it's over a range of distances, you can end up playing a 200-500ft hole based on the pin position.

[Jay Dub]

My main point is that when traveling it's best to have multiple tees and 1 pin placement. That's also best for locals, IMO. That way you can play any hole at anytime, even mixing it up in one round. For a traveler the pin would be easier to find.

With 1 tee and many pins it depends on where the locals decided to put it and takes longer for a traveler to find where the pin is located on that particular day.

btw, I love Cedar Hill. I played it 4 times this past year on my way through.

[Cgkdisc]

One pin placement is enough unless...
1. The additional pin placements are designed for the same skill level as the first one or...
2. A special placement is installed for use only in tournament setup

If you do have multiple placements designed for the same skill level then...
1. Tee signs need to indicate which placement the basket is currently located
2. Pins should not be moved randomly but into predetermined alternate named course configurations (maybe 8-10) designed to be balanced (left, right, straight) so records can be maintained and players become familiar with each pin combo setup so they can reference how well they shoot when they play it.
3. Ideally, a pin combo rotation schedule would be established and posted on a course website so players know what to expect when they play it and/or can plan to visit when the course is set for a configuration they happen to like.

Thumbs down if alternate pins are installed just because it's cool but without a design or functional reason. Reducing erosion as a reason (due to moving them around) has turned out to mostly be an illusion because you usually just end up with more eroded pin placement areas if they aren't maintained (mulch).

[Jay Dub]

Thumbs down if alternate pins are installed just because it's cool but without a design or functional reason. Reducing erosion as a reason (due to moving them around) has turned out to mostly be an illusion because you usually just end up with more eroded pin placement areas if they aren't maintained (mulch).*CoughMtAiryCough* :thmbdown:

[Cgkdisc]

3. Ideally, a pin combo rotation schedule would be established and posted on a course website so players know what to expect when they play it and/or can plan to visit when the course is set for a configuration they happen to like.

I have yet to see this done and aspire to get the IDGC to do it for the Steady Ed layouts now that the Red tees are completed and the "final" pin positions established. But I believe this is one aspect of professional course management that wouldn't be too hard to achieve as we continue to move into our interconnected DG future. I've heard where Patapsco does ABC pin rotations monthly but I'm not sure the specifics are posted on a website and course layouts are named with records maintained.

[mashnut]

One of the Anna Page courses in Rockford has 4 configurations that are each used for one season per year. They have As, Bs, longs and shorts.

[Fishy]

Thumbs down if alternate pins are installed just because it's cool but without a design or functional reason. Reducing erosion as a reason (due to moving them around) has turned out to mostly be an illusion because you usually just end up with more eroded pin placement areas if they aren't maintained (mulch).

Cottonwood has little grass anyway. I believe the sole purpose there is to keep the "chuckers" happy, since one of the key holders is the guy who sells discs at the course. Also since there are so many keys out there, the holes can get changed to an easy or hard position to suit that particular key holder's skill level. They are posted on the new signs where they are by stickers.

[weeman]

One pin placement is enough unless...
1. The additional pin placements are designed for the same skill level as the first one or...
2. A special placement is installed for use only in tournament setup

If you do have multiple placements designed for the same skill level then...
1. Tee signs need to indicate which placement the basket is currently located
2. Pins should not be moved randomly but into predetermined alternate named course configurations (maybe 8-10) designed to be balanced (left, right, straight) so records can be maintained and players become familiar with each pin combo setup so they can reference how well they shoot when they play it.
3. Ideally, a pin combo rotation schedule would be established and posted on a course website so players know what to expect when they play it and/or can plan to visit when the course is set for a configuration they happen to like.

I have rarely ever found this to be the case.

[pchitti]

I have yet to see this done and aspire to get the IDGC to do it for the Steady Ed layouts now that the Red tees are completed and the "final" pin positions established. But I believe this is one aspect of professional course management that wouldn't be too hard to achieve as we continue to move into our interconnected DG future. I've heard where Patapsco does ABC pin rotations monthly but I'm not sure the specifics are posted on a website and course layouts are named with records maintained.

Wacodga.com has a pin location calendar posted for our local course with multiple pins. Sadly though no map with the locations...

[weeman]

Even for all the great things going for it, the Idlewild tee signs don't indicate which sleeve the baskets are located in. Last time I was there, several of the holes (2, 13, 16) with vastly different sleeve placements had both baskets in for each appropriate skill level. Same thing at Kereiakes except for the skill level part. Same shot on 2/3 of the shorts pretty much.

[Sadjo]

I think 2-3 pin placements with at least 2 tees per hole is what all course should strive for. No need for more pin placements but if there is room for more tees that is a nice option.

[djschnabel]

I have yet to see this done and aspire to get the IDGC to do it for the Steady Ed layouts now that the Red tees are completed and the "final" pin positions established. But I believe this is one aspect of professional course management that wouldn't be too hard to achieve as we continue to move into our interconnected DG future. I've heard where Patapsco does ABC pin rotations monthly but I'm not sure the specifics are posted on a website and course layouts are named with records maintained.

Brian @ Mont Du Lac has his pins set on a schedule, one week the odd numbered holes would be short, evens long, and then they rotate (maybe bi-weekly). This is the best setup I've seen so far, and while it works, there has to be a better option.

One thing my brother and I thought of was the ability to have some sort of LED display that lights up when the basket is moved, even if this is done manually. Some sort of switch within the teebox sign that the person who moves the pin could unlock, switch, and notify.

[bholy08]

One pin, multiple tees...tired of trying to guess where pins are located
Courses with multiple pin placements need to have a system where they clearly mark the current pin location...I know some do but the ones I have played did not and I got really tired of walking each hole to locate the pin

[SmoothSailor]

One thing my brother and I thought of was the ability to have some sort of LED display that lights up when the basket is moved, even if this is done manually. Some sort of switch within the teebox sign that the person who moves the pin could unlock, switch, and notify

Shady Oaks DGC in Orangevale PA has a system somewhat like this, minus the light. Their tee signs have each of their 4 pin locations posted on it and below the sign, there is a metal ring with A-D stamped into it. When the pins are changed, the location they're in is the letter in the 12 oclock position.

[412Disc]

I say max 3

[zenbot]

I have rarely ever found this to be the case.
We have push pins that indicate the current position on a hole/pin matrix at the kiosk as well as washers on each tee sign that tell you where the pin is.

Our course changes once per month in between rounds at our monthly.

[GripEnemyS2K]

my home course has A, B, and C positions on every hole, and may also have short/long tees. thats 6 choices and its not ridiculous . . .

[elevated plastic]

If theres room for alot use them. Theres a couple courses by me that have 4-6 per hole. As long as they're marked on the sign where they are i'm fine with it.

[tripp]

I like multiple tees but they need to be the same quality. We have Alt tees for the back 9 at the bEast in Waco but they're dirt and tend to get muddy.

[denny ritner]

Alternate sleeves can be a very nice thing, when done well. I like Chuck's points about having the extra sleeves "for a reason" and for the same skill level. The signage needs to be easy to follow and it's very easy to make it such that the negatives associated with confusion and aesthetics begin to outweigh the positives associated with more variety for locals.

Case in point:
http://www.dgcoursereview.com/course_pics/870/bc5736a9.jpg

[LetsPlayGolf]

I voted for just 1. If done correctly, one is all that you should need. I believe 2 or maybe 3 on a few holes per course is doable IF (like someone said earlier) they do not change the difficulty of the hole. I personally do not like holes where one pin is 305 foot shot par three and another pin is a 450 foor par 4. It takes away from the integrity of the course.

Multiple tees for each skill Blue, White, Red on a single hole with a great pin location is the way to go. That way a Blue level player and a Red level player can play the round together and at the end the score between the two should be competitive (i.e. close).

[DavidSauls]

Multiple pin placements are rare around here. As best I can there is only 1 course among the 30 closest to me that has them.

As it turns out, it's a course I play fairly often, and I find I'm not a big fan of this. For most of the holes with multiple positions, there is one I like considerably more than the others, and it's a bit of a let-down to reach the hole and find the basket in the less-favored position.

It's also hard to compare my scores to previous visits, since the moving baskets change the course significantly.

To my taste, the benefits of adding a little variety are offset by the drawbacks of doing so.

[chrismetken]

i think two is the best. at the course i play 15 of the holes have 2 pin positions, which is great. but when you get to hole 5, 7, and 18, there is 3. its simple enough with two. its either in pin a or b. with the holes with 3 how are you supposed to know if its in c. kepping it at a maximum of two pin positions is best in my opinion.

[djschnabel]

i think two is the best. at the course i play 15 of the holes have 2 pin positions, which is great. but when you get to hole 5, 7, and 18, there is 3. its simple enough with two. its either in pin a or b. with the holes with 3 how are you supposed to know if its in c. kepping it at a maximum of two pin positions is best in my opinion.

You raise another good point, I think two are enough on some holes (shorter ace runs) but then again, I enjoy consistency. At Riverside in St. Cloud, there are two positions on each sign, but in reality, there are actually three locations for the pins. I'm not sure if I'd expect to see the signs remade (they're etched in metal), or if a course designer has only one shot to make it right, which I also don't agree with.

Another poster mentioned how they don't mind 3 pin positions, with two tee pads, because then they have 6 different holes to play. I agree with this, as long as they are done right.

Another question, at Water Works in KC, some of the alternate pin positions have sleeves so you know where the other positions would be. What happens if you hit one? Do you play as it lies, or take another shot without penalty? I hit a post on the exact line I wanted, I was shooting like crap and this throw was actually a decent line, and I told my bro that it was B.S., and he allowed me to take another shot, which I threw on a slightly different line, and left a 10 footer for par.

[Lewis]

My favorite is the 2 pads and two baskets option, where both baskets are permanently in the ground on each hole 24x7. Otherwise when you get beyond two sleeves per hole you run the risk of jumping the shark.

I like the guidelines that CK posted, but when has any of us seen a disc golf club that keeps the information on its website current to within a week or less? How many disc golfers are disciplined, responsible, punctual record keepers? Better to set up a schedule beforehand and post that on the website and on a sign near hole 1. Then you could compare today's date against the schedule and know where to expect the baskets to be (barring the club's failure to keep up with the schedule).

[bazillion]

I think it's a tradeoff between what the course will support and how often (and how far) the locals are willing to schlep baskets.

Frxmpl, #1 at Water Works (http://www.dgcoursereview.com/course.php?id=86) justifiably has several pins because the terrain is varied enough to support that many. They also have an active club that takes good care of the course and changes things up regularly.

OTOH, multiple pins on a course like this one (http://www.dgcoursereview.com/course.php?id=861) (especially the back nine) would be a waste of time, energy, effort, gas, money, and anything else of value. My opinion, of course, so all you locals down there don't go hatin on me. Instead, go bash the courses I like - or better, do something to improve that course so more people will go out and play it! Plant a tree or twelve, and then put in some alternates!

[Billipo]

I am a fan of only one pin per skill level. Pick the best spot use it. The only good reason for multiple moving pins locations that I can think of is a wide open hole where pin movement helps develop player depth perception.

I am a fan of multiple permanent pin placements for different skill levels. Is it much easier to make a hole more difficult with a second pin placed in a precarious pin placement than to find extra length. Helps develop strong putting without frustration to lesser skill players. Example is Warwick with two tees and two pins on each hole. Color code pins!