different tee pad lengths

[hognosesucker]

My club is beginning to raise money for concrete teepad installation. Our course (http://www.dgcoursereview.com/course.php?id=1284) is a dg commplex with an 18 hole championship course and a 9 hole rec course. Our goal is to install 54 12' x 5' x 5" teepads for the complex (2 pads per hole per course. The champ course has 6 par 3 holes all of which are fairly technical, finesse shots at or under 300'. In the event that we don't raise enough money to install all the teepads at that length, should we make the pads for the par 3 holes 8' in order to install 2 extra 12' pads?

[mashnut]

8' pads are fine on shorter holes, especially if that lets you put in larger pads for the bomber holes. I would just make sure that especially those shorter pads are flush with the ground so people who like longer run ups can start behind the concrete without having to step up.

[Cgkdisc]

Suggest going narrower than shorter. If you lop off 4 feet on a 5x12 pad, you save 20 sq ft. If you make 3.5x12 feet pads, you lop off 18 sq ft which is about the same amount of cement.

[hognosesucker]

Thanks for the input, guys. I'll set up a link to this thread on my club's website.

[jlh900]

Suggest going narrower than shorter. If you lop off 4 feet on a 5x12 pad, you save 20 sq ft. If you make 3.5x12 feet pads, you lop off 18 sq ft which is about the same amount of cement.

this is a very smart idea i hardly ever go from side to side on a pad

[BrotherDave]

How much of a Rec course is this? If it's really Rec-y, I'd even encourage smaller pads to encourage standstills and dissuade big, honky run ups kids like to do.

[Cgkdisc]

Even 4x10 would be a compromise and reduce 20 sq ft.

[New013]

i'm against going narrower.. i'm 6'2 and I can deal with a 6' pad if it's wide enough on a short hole. but narrow pads just piss me off.

imo, it's easier to judge where youre moving vertically than it is to judge your lateral movement. if you do need more you can run up from behind the pad. plus if you need more than 8' to go 300' you're doing it wrong.

[BrotherDave]

i'm against going narrower.. i'm 6'2 and I can deal with a 6' pad if it's wide enough on a short hole. but narrow pads just piss me off.

imo, it's easier to judge where youre moving vertically than it is to judge your lateral movement. if you do need more you can run up from behind the pad. plus if you need more than 8' to go 300' you're doing it wrong.

^this, plus you have to be extremely precise with your tee's locations so that a goofy angle doesn't seriously harm the design. I like width on a pad b/c it helps open some atypical lines.

[Cgkdisc]

A narrower pad just makes it a little more like a fairway drive where you have to end up on a line behind the mini anyway. And frankly, I have no problem from a design standpoint with some challenging (but safe) pads as one of the challenges on select holes. If some people have more challenge than others with proper footing, that's just part of the game you have to deal with like other challanges that impact taller versus shorter, and wider versus narrower people in the game. Giant concrete pads are a benefit not a right since there's nothing in the rules requiring them. So adjusting to less desireable tees is part of the game, again, as long as they are safe.

[hognosesucker]

A narrower pad just makes it a little more like a fairway drive where you have to end up on a line behind the mini anyway. And frankly, I have no problem from a design standpoint with some challenging (but safe) pads as one of the challenges on select holes. If some people have more challenge than others with proper footing, that's just part of the game you have to deal with like other challanges that impact taller versus shorter, and wider versus narrower people in the game. Giant concrete pads are a benefit not a right since there's nothing in the rules requiring them. So adjusting to less desireable tees is part of the game, again, as long as they are safe.

I like this, sort of like a designer putting a slightly uphill teepad on an uphill hole...adds to the challenge.

[New013]

so you're saying that really big people should just suck it up and let smaller people have an advantage?

[BrotherDave]

I like this, sort of like a designer putting a slightly uphill teepad on an uphill hole...adds to the challenge.
Just say no to un-level tees.
so you're saying that really big people should just suck it up and let smaller people have an advantage?
Agreed, I don't know how many times my left foot has slipped off the side of a narrower tee.

Narrow tees ≠ safe tees IMO.

[Cgkdisc]

Yep. There are all kinds of design elements where players of different sizes and technique have advantages and disadvantages. Why not some tees? There are players who are upset if the right side of the pad isn't clear for coming onto the tee from that side in their runup. I say, the tee is already a huge bonus compared to having to hit your mark on the fairway. You just have to deal with how much "bonus" is given to you. No different from slippery pads from water or cement not being brushed properly. You deal with it. Not too much problem with uphill tees not being level as a challenge. Again, it's still better than trying to throw uphill from the fairway.

[hognosesucker]

I generally like the designer's perogative comments by chuck. But I'm not the designer here. The only place I would consider putting a narrow tee pad would be a 260ft downhill tunnel shot where I can't imagine anyone needing more than a 3 step run up. But I'm more for complete consistency between holes personally.

[Cgkdisc]

I'm not against conformity. But when it's not feasible due to budget, I'm not saying there's a problem if some tees are more challenging but safe. A 3x6 level pad is safe enough, but not everyone will be able to take their preferred runup or stance. It's not unsafe, just another challenge for some. And I agree, I might do this on a reachable downhill hole where "stand and deliver" is an appropriate stance to throw your drive.

[BrotherDave]

ITT: Chuck reveals his disdain for people with long legs. :p

[Cgkdisc]

It's more of a disappointment with players who haven't learned how to stand and deliver or feel they shouldn't have to do so on the tee.

[hognosesucker]

The biggest hindrance to our putting in completely uniform pads is cash. We are a small club and we are in a small area to find a lot of businesses to support us. We have some club cash but the vast majority of funds will come from 3 fundraisers during the next 7 months.

[optidiscic]

I had a guy complain once because he liked to run up from the side of the tee...really...you want me take out trees to the right of the tee because you have a goofy sideways run up...lol

Do whatever you want....If a player cannot adjust its a weakness in their game and not a weakness in your design

[BrotherDave]

I had a guy complain once because he liked to run up from the side of the tee...really...you want me take out trees to the right of the tee because you have a goofy sideways run up...lol

Do whatever you want....If a player cannot adjust its a weakness in their game and not a weakness in your design

I like to do that on some holes but I wouldn't go so far as to complain about it, lol.

I think there is a clear line b/w a weakness in your game from not adapting vs unable to adapt b/c you are how god made you.

A 7' guy's stand and deliver is still going to take up more than 3' of width just b/c his legs are so long and his feet are that big. Probably. :|

[New013]

explain to me where being tall is an advantage over being short on a disc golf course as far as the layout or equipment is involved...

i've got no problem for smaller tees on short holes but once you hit 300' i think you need to either give a player a 4' wide pad or a pad that's even with the ground and space beside the pad to allow for a runup.

you can call it an extra challenge all you want but what it really is, is a lawsuit waiting to happen. if one big guy steps off that pad and it's not level so he rolls/breaks his ankle and you might have a course pulled.

my friend broke his ankle at kentwood because they have dinky 3x5 pads that are in some places 8" off the ground, he stepped off the side, on to a root and snap. luckily he didn't sue the city because he didn't want the course to get in trouble but next time that happens who knows.

[Mbagnola1]

Just say no to un-level tees.

Agreed, I don't know how many times my left foot has slipped off the side of a narrower tee.

Narrow tees ≠ safe tees IMO.


I've had some pretty nasty falls this way.

Keep em wide!

[Cgkdisc]

Both of you are talking about unsafe tees that would be unsafe regardless of size. Smaller level tees flush with the surrounding ground are not unsafe, just challenging for some players. There's no PDGA official spec for tee size (like there is for discs and targets) and hard surface tees are optional. So there's little basis for any lawsuit other than against tees of any size that are unsafe for a variety of reasons.

[mashnut]

I have never complained about narrow tee pads, but ones that slope up or downhill and ones with big drops off the front are real safety issues, not to mention encouraging erosion.

[basketcase15]

Do whatever you want....If a player cannot adjust its a weakness in their game and not a weakness in your design

this sums it up perfectly

i feel this will become a arguing match of this should be this for these reasons Vs. this should be that for those reasons, when it should be up to a course designer to build it, and for us schmucks to huk on it

[BrotherDave]

Flush is king but even it doesn't help a narrow tee if the surrounding ground is muddy/wet/icy etc.

I absolutely get what you're saying about the legality of tee sizes, no argument there. I would just like to encourage future tees from not being narrower than ~3.5'. It reminds me of my basketball days where the width of the course is blatantly too narrow for modern athletes and the reluctance to change it b/c "it adds challenge*."



*actually, real reason is b/c they don't want to take out a row of expensive courtside seats

[SomeChump]

Bigger is always better for teepads. I don't recall ever not using an entire teepad, no matter how big it was. I want it wide and I want it long. Level is nice, but level only lasts so long. When it gets muddy, the dirt around the teepad gets carried out onto the fairway by the players and the pad gradually "rises." Mulch helps, but only so much.

I want a teepad I can start my run up on. I almost always start off the back of the teepad and my first step is onto the pad. That's dumb.

My ideal teepads would be cone shaped. 4'-5' wide at the front, 12' wide at the back, 15-20 feet long. Yea, it's a lot of concrete, but you only make these things once. If the stupid thing is 3x6 feet, I don't even want it there. It's just in the way. Use a dirt pad instead if you can't afford a few more bags of concrete.

Rant over.

[hohman]

This course doesn't have any problems with level tees. Even with dirt the tees we have now they are almost completely flat. This course has been rated in the top 50 on this site numerous years and that's with all dirt pads. We are just trying to make sure that we make this course the best it can be. This is why we are trying to get the best tees possible.

I too believe bigger is better but unless we get a lot of donations (which we are excepting on our website www.centraliadiscgolf.com) then this simply isn't going to happen.

This course we are discussing is in Centralia IL and called Foundation (look it up and come visit our beautiful course for a great challenge.)

[DavidSauls]

I have a personal bias towards 12' tee pads. The course I learned on, and the 3 courses I play 90% of my rounds on, have 12' tee pads, and my footwork has evolved to match them. Shorter pads are, at the least, an annoyance.

Where shorter pads must be installed, my wish is that the back be as flush with the ground as possible to allow starting off the teepad, without having to step up.

I realize this is just a personal problem and not a good designs/standard argument. My best stab at one would be that shorter tees handicap those used to longer ones, while longer tees do not affect thosed used to shorter ones. So, please, 12' whereever possible.

[Cgkdisc]

I might be in favor of a rule change that allowed a player to not have all supporting points on the tee at the time of release as long as their plant foot that would normally be behind a mini is completely on the tee. That might help taller players when some tees are on the small side. For example in ball golf, the player doesn't physically have to be standing inside the tee markers, just the tee and ball.

[esdubya]

10' is about as short as I would go on the tees. Most in SE Michigan are at least that long. One course that has 8' tees (Bandemer Park) sticks out like a sore thumb and everyone complains about the tees being too short. IF they were better taken care of with leveling behind the pads, it would not be as big an issue, but the city of Ann Arbor doesn't do any regular maintenance on the pads.

Now on one hand I like the 8' tees at Bandemer because it makes the course unique, and adds a challenge because it forces most players to adjust their run-ups. But on the other hand, it can be dangerous when the pads are not flush with the ground. I would add challenge elsewhere IMO and look to make all of the pads at least 10' long, unless you KNOW that the park will do a good job with maintenance for the life of the course.

[Almighty_Ed]

Are you doing these tee pads yourself or having a contractor do it? The reason for asking is if doing them yourself theres not that big of a difference, about a dollar a square foot for the price of the concrete alone, in making them longer. One cubic yard of concrete will do right at 80 sq/ft @ 4" thick. You can get about 100-105 sq/ft @3" thick. 3" is plenty thick enough for foot only traffic. It breaks down like this. you can have 2- 4'x10'x4", 2- 5'x10'x3", 2- 4'x12'x3", or 3- 4'x8'x3" per cubic yard of concrete. Concrete runs around $80-100 dollars per yard

If it's a contractor doing the work, that's a whole other ball game. Get lots of quotes. Unions and insurance really drive the price up so if possible try to find a smaller company needing the work over a larger reputable company. A tee pad is super easy to do so you don't need the big name to do it right.

I'm 6'6" so I vote for the longer pads.

[ohtobediscing]

Pier Park DGC in OR built their tees level with the ground, in a 6-8 months wet environment. Tee #s 4, 9, 11, 17 are slowly sinking into the ground, and creating little square ponds to throw from. On hole # 13, I started throwing a LHBH hyzer, the approach of which is a 45* angle right to left across the tee. Righties watching me liked the shot so much they now anhyzer the same shot, and though the tee was never designed for this approach, we make it work.

I guess my take on this is: I'm 6'. 8' can be long enough, if there is 2'-3' of level run-up just behind the tee. 4' width is OK---if you need wider, adjust your start accordingly. Make the tees ground level if at all possible, but account for wet/flowing-soil conditions---i. e., build up the surrounding ground at least 3'-4' behind and in front of tee, surrounded with railroad ties if necessary. #3 at Pier Park, on a sideslope, is done like this.
Best wishes, seems like you're really attuned to the best tee boxes you can afford.

[#19325]

I absolutely love Centralia. If you read the reviews the tees are the #1 issue. I would not be in a rush to get them done this season. Raise as much money this season and install the front 9 tee pads. Run more fundraisers in 2013 and install the back 9. In 4 years you could have all 36 tees done. I would not sacrifice anything for this course. This course is awesome! It deserves awesome tee pads too.

[bazillion]

Shorten the rec teepads. That'll give the rec players incentive to work on their game so they can play in the big boys' sandbox without looking like total dorks.

[#19325]

Shorten the rec teepads. That'll give the rec players incentive to work on their game so they can play in the big boys' sandbox without looking like total dorks.

This course is a big boy course from the shorts. It's an absolute beast from the longs. You can get a good idea how tough this course is. Check out rounds 2 & 3.
http://www.pdga.com/tournament_results/16288/Open

[Johnny Conservative]

I say keep them all the same.

[elevated plastic]

I prefer all the same sizes.

[ferretdance03]

I absolutely love Centralia. If you read the reviews the tees are the #1 issue. I would not be in a rush to get them done this season. Raise as much money this season and install the front 9 tee pads. Run more fundraisers in 2013 and install the back 9. In 4 years you could have all 36 tees done. I would not sacrifice anything for this course. This course is awesome! It deserves awesome tee pads too.
Agreed. I played a solo round at Centralia a couple years ago during a vacation in St. Louis and the lack of tees was the only downer for me.

I don't think the Rec course would need 12' pads, but if money and space allow I would make them all the same on the Championship course.

[Lewis]

If a concrete pad is smaller than 5'x12', I'd rather not have it there at all, and it takes a lot of attention to keep concrete pads level with the ground around them.

I like the suggestion to install 4" thick pads rather than to shorten them or make them narrower. Shaving an inch of thickness from 5" to 4" will add more than 4 full-sized pads to your budget without making any other cuts. If your course already has level, solid natural pads, I don't think you're going to need 5" of concrete for your pads. In either case, you should avoid driving over them in your pickup trucks.

[hognosesucker]

I haven't been involved with all the teepad talk, I think the 5" thickness suggestion had to do with the issue of the constant freeze/thaw process we go through in the winter, also I think our frames will be made from 2x6s. Most of our natural tees are on flat ground right now. I definitely like the idea of installing pads in steps. I think part of the reason we want to get at least all of the tees on the champ side done is to make sure the park won't go back on letting us install pads at the short AND long tees after they have a chance to evaluate the project's effect on the natural beauty of the park.

[Almighty_Ed]

I'm a union cement mason and I've been pouring concrete just 50 miles south of you for 20+yrs. Freeze and thaw is not that big of an issue with concrete in our area. With a properly prepared subgrade(2"min compacted crushed stone) and wire mesh reinforcement(also a must) 5" thick is overkill. Any engineer will back me up that 4" is standard and from my experience 3" will do just fine.

If cracks are your concern, then sawcuts not extra thickness is your answer. Look at a sidewalk. Those grooves across tooled in every 4 or 5 feet are there for crack control. If the concrete does crack, it will crack in these weakened plane areas/grooves. The wire mesh(looks like fence wire) will keep it from heaving on each side of these grooves. The same concept is done with sawcuts. The concrete is simply cut an inch deep with a saw the next day in the same manner as the grooves in a sidewalk. Sawcuts give a much cleaner look and dont fill up with dirt or grow grass over time like the tooled grooves, but most engineers and architects prefer the look of tooled joints.

I poured and finished all the concrete at O'reillys in Salem and most of the concrete at the one in Centralia. The parking lots are 5-6" thick with sawcuts and the sidewalks are 3-4" with tooled grooves. Take a look at them and you'll see what I'm talking about.

[hognosesucker]

I'm a union cement mason and I've been pouring concrete just 50 miles south of you for 20+yrs. Freeze and thaw is not that big of an issue with concrete in our area. With a properly prepared subgrade(2"min compacted crushed stone) and wire mesh reinforcement(also a must) 5" thick is overkill. Any engineer will back me up that 4" is standard and from my experience 3" will do just fine.

If cracks are your concern, then sawcuts not extra thickness is your answer. Look at a sidewalk. Those grooves across tooled in every 4 or 5 feet are there for crack control. If the concrete does crack, it will crack in these weakened plane areas/grooves. The wire mesh(looks like fence wire) will keep it from heaving on each side of these grooves. The same concept is done with sawcuts. The concrete is simply cut an inch deep with a saw the next day in the same manner as the grooves in a sidewalk. Sawcuts give a much cleaner look and dont fill up with dirt or grow grass over time like the tooled grooves, but most engineers and architects prefer the look of tooled joints.

I poured and finished all the concrete at O'reillys in Salem and most of the concrete at the one in Centralia. The parking lots are 5-6" thick with sawcuts and the sidewalks are 3-4" with tooled grooves. Take a look at them and you'll see what I'm talking about.

Awesome, this is the kind of expertise that we don't have in our club. Thanks!

[chain-addicted]

Dang... Ed's knowledge reigns supreme!

[hohman]

THANKS for all the great advice peeps; keep it coming!!!

Hey Ed, any chance of coming to help when we do this. We could use it!!!

[dahig]

thanks for the great advice ed...
installation instructions are what we need. none of the boys in the club have any experience with ground prep, set-up (forms), pouring or finishing. we are tyrying to collect as much info as possible to make sure that we are installing a safe, quality product that will last for years.

[Almighty_Ed]

No problem guys. Any questions at all just fire away. As far as me helpin out, it's possible but if the weather is nice enough for you guys to do them chances are I'll be busy as hell.

[dahig]

question...
once the concrete is poured how long does it need to
"set" before brooming the surface?

also...
how rough of a broom do you need for a nice texture?

[Lewis]

question...
once the concrete is poured how long does it need to
"set" before brooming the surface?

also...
how rough of a broom do you need for a nice texture?

It depends on the conditions, but do it before it's dry. You don't want to wait until after you can walk on it, but you don't want to do it immediately after pouring. If you've ever worked with clay in art class, think of when your clay is no longer soft, but sort of a leathery hardness where it holds its shape but still has some evident moisture in it. By the time the concrete goes pale as it dries, it's probably too late. With quickcrete, I think it takes an hour or so for it to get to the right state, but that's dependent on weather and how sunny a spot you're pouring in.

Get one of those big, stiff-bristled push brooms with the rectangular head. You want a really rough head. Also, you want to pull the broom across the surface rather than pushing it. You can bear down to give the grooves some depth, but you want to avoid gouging the surface.