Hello!~ 1st Post!

[ShannonHG]

Lots of you may know me. I own and operate a private course in Fuquay Varina called Higher Ground.
I started building the course in 1994 and through lots of very hard work, achieved 3 18 hole courses in one (played on same baskets), on about 13 acres of land (and water, including the 4.5 acre pond in the middle).
The course borders Middle Creek along one side and we even have a couple of holes that cross the creek.

I was introduced to this forum by a friend, Lowe Bibby, and came here to check out the course reviews and to say hello.

It's sad to say that the only review given so far on my course was written by someone who sounds so uptight he must expel a little gas every time he cracks a smile! (If he indeed smiles)

Please allow me to address some of this so called "experienced" player's observations...

Copied directly from his review...

This place has every one of my biggest beefs with disc golf courses.
Well...it's easy to see how "Mr Perfect" is going to "evaluate" the course from his first negative statement.

There's no tee signs.
Hey John...ya ever actually tried to maintain a disc golf course? Do you have any idea how much extra work and trouble it is to MOW GRASS around 50 tee signs, not to mention the cost and effort required to make and maintain them?:rolleyes: Do you know how to read a MAP?? As a pilot I would assume you must be familiar with the USGS and know your way around an area from an overhead view. Not EVERY course needs a tee sign on every hole to get in the way of mowing and possibly even be dangerous to golfers...and yes I HAVE seen injuries caused by them. I keep scorecards in the donation box, with very accurate and detailed maps to the three courses. ALL tees are marked with the hole number and distance, as well as concrete tee pads, benches on some holes, and concrete statues on others to aid in finding them from a distance. The course maps on the back of the scorecards were made directly from a satellite photo of my land.
Did ya ever play Winthrop at Rock Hill? FYI It's one of the nicest courses in the state of SC and has been used to host many championship grade events. Like my course, it's on PRIVATE land and is multi use. Sometimes one must be courteous (something I doubt you know much about) and watch out for sunbathers or others enjoying the beautiful park there.
I designed my course after playing Rock Hill and I liked the way they had the tees (which were all natural at the time) marked by hole number and distance, painted on the end of concrete cylinders buried at the front corners of the tee box.
Did they have tee signs? NO
Did I have a map? NO
Did I get lost, and take an extra hour or so to play the whole course, having to find my way around in grass that was taller than the tee markers? YES I did, but if I had been supplied with a detailed map I would have had absolutely no problem.
Did I get my first ace there? YES
Was it a wrong hole ace? Yes it was but I still thought it was awesome! How was I to know I was throwing that 86 softie from what is now Hole #7's tee area to Hole #6's basket? (actually I believe at the time it was from #3 tee to #18 basket)
Either way it was still an awesome shot and a very enjoyable first ace.
So over all...did I have fun, even without tee signs?
Ya damn right I did!

There's crossing fairways. This is a huge no no. I'll never rank a course with crossing fairways well.
Well why don't you stick to "ranking" courses that only follow your own pipe dream of a giant singular direction loop like Buckhorn at New Hill, or UNC that actually used to be a ball golf course? Maybe then you wouldn't have to have a "disclaimer" at the end of each of your "reviews".
This is a FUN course, designed to get as many playable holes as we could in a relatively small area, as far as golf courses go. It is by no means DANGEROUS like you say. I was very careful to place each tee pad safely out of range of the previous hole, or at least behind vegetation (as much as the available room allowed).
As far as crossing fairways, it's almost impossible to design a course that does not at least share some fairways. It is not uncommon at all on PRIVATE courses to even share a basket, and yes we do have a couple of those here too. No one has ever been injured by a disc here in the 14 years the course has been played. We have had regular tournaments every year and I have hosted three different well known disc golf tours...The Homegrown Tour (which in many people's opinion is the best tour going in NC disc golf, and has been since it first came to my course in '99), The Cape Fear Random Doubles Tour, and The Piedmont Random Doubles tour which I'm sure many of you are familiar with and played courses all over the state on. We have had as many 84 players at a time on 18 holes, and will most likely have over a hundred at the Homegrown event on the last day of this month, August 31st (my 43rd birthday). I have heard many people say how smoothly the course flows, even with an insane amount of people like that playing at the same time. That's for a reason John. It's well designed and a lot of thought went into it.
Keep in mind also that the majority of the time, there are no more than half a dozen groups out there, most of the time it's only ONE. That's why private courses are more enjoyable for most people, because you don't have to deal with large crowds and impolite people.

[ShannonHG]

There's not enough room here to have a variety of hole types.
Yeah...bla bla bla...see above ^

They're all short.
That's an outright lie. Out of the three playable courses, we have 13 holes at 284' and above (out of those, 7 are 298' or above with 5 of them 300' or over, the longest being 350'). Get your facts straight!

I personally can't stand home made baskets and every basket here is home made.
Then don't play on them! I don't recall inviting you out and making you suffer through them. It's a PRIVATE home made course. There are certain challenges you must face. If you aren't up to them, then go play somewhere else and whine about it. waaaaaaaa.
And this..."every basket here is home made.":confused:
Again...get your facts straight liar.:mad:
There are 4 baskets on the course that are NOT home made. Two of them are Innova Mach 2's and two are Tri States. The two Machs have a little hurricane damage and were kindly donated to me by Carlton Howard and Jim Markov. They are both "unique" and both have many aces on them. If you can't putt well enough to make it in a less than "perfect" basket, I pity you....NOT. You and the other greatest golfer in the world, Tiger Woods can both whine all you want about distractions... waaaaaaaa grow up.

Most are different and some are silly.
Hahahaha...I laugh in your general direction....That was the original intent "Mr Perfect". You call yourself exprienced, but you need to open your eyes and expand your horizons about what disc golf is all about. Overly critical people like you SUCK and are not enjoyable to play around. FYI when disc gold first started out there were only "targets" to throw at. Just because a course doesn't have 18 Mach 3's does not make it any less of a fun course, to most people...

Because of the lack of land there's some holes up around the houses. They're not pretty holes and i'm not a fan of that. I think golf courses should be beautiful places.
Dude you really need to get a grip. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and you are the very first out of literally over a thousand people to have played my course, that I've ever heard make such a bold and ridiculous statement!
LOL...and you even call yourself "pretty" hahahahahaha:confused:

Also the fairways and distance between a lot of the tees and pins are too close. If there are lots of people on this course there would definitely be a chance of disc to the head.

Yeah yeah bla bla bla....we'll see about that in two weeks when we have 100 people all crowded together having FUN!

Oh too your credit...you did manage to find just a couple of nice things to say...thanks...
"I'm not a fan of this place but there are a lot of people in the area who love it."
Gee I wonder why that is?

"I think it's great that someone goes through all the pain to make a course on their property."
You sir...have no idea.

"There's some good water holes here. In fact. They're very good. The holes around the water are short and fair. Theres also multiple tee positions here, if I remember correctly."
You are correct thanks.

Then there's your pathetic "disclaimer" at the end of your "review"...

I'm not trying to trash a home made course. I'm just trying to give an unbiased opinion of the course that is consistant with how I rate all courses.

A comment regarding my evaluation of courses. I am not trying to insult or hurt any ones feelings when I review a course. I'm just trying to evaluate the course on what I feel are important characteristics of a good course.

Opinions are like "you know what"...everyone's got one. You are entitled to yours. Why don't you think about the people who might come here and read your ridiculous "reviews" and possibly never get the chance to see a course that THEY might indeed think is a GREAT course. I see that "1 out of 1" people have already found your "review" helpful. I feel sorry for this person if they take you at your word and believe the lies you spread about courses all around. Only God knows what other lies you have posted with your snotty little "reviews" of all those courses you've played. I hope people read my post here and take everything you say from now on with a grain of salt.

ANY of you are welcome to come out and see my course for yourself and I hope you enjoy it more than this clown did.

Thank y'all for your time and for allowing me this space to defend Higher Ground against such a ridiculous "review". I can only hope that the mods or admins of this forum will pay attention to the "reported review" I'm about to make right now, and will take that crap down before someone else finds it 'helpful'....
Come out and see Higher Ground for yourselves on August 31st. It will be in tip top shape for our biggest tourney of the year.
Any of you are also welcome to come out and pitch in on some course workdays between now and then. PM me for details and I will help set you up with a small project before you get in a practice round. Then let me know what you think. I guarantee the majority of you who make it will also find this "John's review" not worthy of these pages.

Hopefully someone else will write up a real review of my course here....one that doesn't require a disclaimer at the end....:rolleyes:

I do plan on coming back here to post some pictures of the course on here for all to see. Right now though, I've already spent too much time here typing when I need to be outside mowing to prepare the course for todays random draw doubles tourney, which we have one of every Sat afternoon starting at 3 PM. The best times to play the course are on Saturdays or soon after, because it has been freshly mowed and all the greens and fairways carefully manicured.

Thank you and good day.
:)

[timg]

This could have been handled more diplomatically and over PM rather than publicly attacking another member like you did. The course wasn't his cup of tea.. it happens. As more, hopefully unbiased, reviews come in, a more accurate picture of the course will be painted.

I'm also not in the business of censoring opinions that may not be popular. If you'd like to argue your case, perhaps a nicely (<- KEY WORD) worded PM to the reviewer would produce results.

For those curious, here is a link to the course in question: http://www.dgcoursereview.com/course.php?id=1357

[ShannonHG]

I didn't come here to cause any trouble. I came here for the first time and read a review of my course that included lies and IMO, too much negativity. You may not be in the business of censorship. I applaud you for that. I'm a moderator on an internet forum myself and I can appreciate all the things related to them.
Yes, I could have just sent him a PM. He lives local to me. I could even pay him a visit. That would not settle anything though, toward the other members here who read this guys drivel and might believe what he says. Helping spread lies by enabling is far worse than censorship IMO. Thank you for not censoring me.
A private message to the reviewer will not undo any possible harm to the course's reputation, that comes from people logging on here, who have never even seen it, an make up their minds about it based on his opinion.
I'll have you know that the guy who literally wrote the rule book on disc golf is a close personal friend of mine. I've never heard ANY of these type negative comments about the course from him, or any of the other local Pros who play here.

[timg]

Well people on here can update their reviews so a PM explaining something that may be wrong in a review could result in a score change or additional info being added. Scores are not locked in by any means. As far as not hearing any negatives from the guy that wrote the disc golf rule book.. he obviously has a different opinion than the reviewer.

Like I said, as more reviews come in, the average score will balance out. If you added course info (a map, photos, etc.) that would certainly help your cause. If a course only has one review, even a not so great one, and it looks good in photos I'd still be likely to try it out. I think most of the people here really start paying attention to score once a course starts getting a few reviews under its belt rather than a single review that may or may not reflect the majority opinion.

[johnt1969]

Shannon,

I'm sorry that you feel I've crossed the line with my review. It's always hard to convey the correct emotion in written word. Please read this forum post and all reviews knowing that I'm not writing with contempt. I'm just trying to convey what I feel is important. I also tend to have a bit of a sarcastic personality and that usually doesn't come off too well in written word.

I would like you to know that I do understand the amount of work and money that it takes to install and maintain a course. I know it would be a complete pain for you to have tee signs, baskets and pads but that doesn't stop me from wanting them on every course I play. There are a lot of things that I think are important features on courses and I rate all courses according to those things. Even if they're private courses. It might not seem fair but that's how I do it.

From your reply I know that you don't think crossing/shared fairways are a big deal but I will never be convinced otherwise. In 1994 I got hit in the face by a Innova Stingray on a course where the fairways were right on top of each other. I ended up with a nasty cut that required some medical attention and almost made me miss a tournament that I traveled all the way across the country for. The discs now have much sharper edges than they did back then and it's just a matter of time before someone gets seriously injured. Remember that these discs are coming out of our hands between 50 and 100 mph. If a new Wraith goes awry and hits someone at those speeds it could be devistating.

I'm sorry that I misspoke about all the baskets being home made. I didn't remember that some of them were normal disc golf baskets. I'm also sorry that I didn't know about the course map with all the tee positions marked. I will go update my review of the course to include those things.

The great thing about this web site is that everyone can share opinions on courses. My review of your course was only that. An opinion. I fully admit and agree that I'm can be harsh when I write reviews about places that I don't like. Some of the harshness is a failed attempt at sarcasm that doesn't go over well in written form. But anyway... the nice thing is that we all have different opinions. If soneone doesn't agree with my opinion they can check out my reviews and go to the places that I don't like. If people do agree with my opinion then they can play the places I review high knowing that there's a chance that they will like them.

As more disc golfers find this site and start using the review feature then my review of your course may not hold any validity at all. I know there's many people in the area who like your course. That's how I found out about it.

Once again. My review was not meant to be a personal attack on you. Thank you for spending the time, money and effort to have and maintain a course on your private property. I know many of the disc golfers in the area like the course and they all appreciate the hard work you put in to it.

John

[Donovan]

ShannonHG,

There is one really great thing about the review section on this site. Now that you have joined us, you can go review your own course. Please feel free to do that! I am sure we would love to read it. I think it is great when the course owner/designer comes in a reviews their own course.

Can't wait for your review and welcome to DGCourseReview.com.

[DGtourist]

**Sigh**
He should have just written his own review.

[magictenor1]

Amen

[Marv Vega]

Wow, such drama! If you don't like a review, write (in your opinion) a more accurate one. When enough reviews come through an accurate picture of the course will emerge.

[ShannonHG]

You want drama? Try joining a new website, with high hopes of talking with like minded, down to earth people, and the first thing you see is a bad review of the course you poured your heart and soul into for the past 14 years. It would be one thing if the picture he painted for y'all was truthful, and it was a short, ugly, cut up little course, full of hazardous, dangerous conditions, built too close to buildings, with no tee pads or any way to find the holes, and all you had to throw to, or putt at, were hideous little (some even silly) home made baskets.

This member's so called "sarcasm" has absolutely no place in a public review of a disc golf course, where some people might see how many courses he's played and actually believe what he says and be turned away without ever giving the course a chance. Like I said, it shows at the bottom of the screen how many people found the review was "helpful". I'm guessing the two it showed as of yesterday are two of these people who will possibly never get to enjoy the course because they read that BS. If he doesn't like, and is plainly VERY against the type of course I have here, then it's not right to go around playing these types of courses, then running to his ever growing online list of courses he's played, and trash it openly like he did, all under a veil of "...oh I'm not trying to trash homegrown courses...bla bla bla..."
Why write a review of something you already knew you were going to dislike when you first stepped up and played hole one? What's the point, if it's not to pontificate around and spread your own negativity about someone else's dream. Stay on the public courses with your "all too critical" reviews. I've read some of his other "reviews" of our local courses, some of which are championship courses, designed by some of the best in the business, I see a pattern to his write ups and I'm not impressed. There's a difference between "reviewing" something, and whining about things you don't like about it.
A review is supposed to be impartial and unbiased, which is EXACTLY why I did not, and will not review my own course here on this website. That would look kind of silly.
You folks that have never designed or built a disc golf course, (I have done several BTW and have been there doing the actual work involved at some of the major courses in this area, public and private), and not been personally responsible for maintaining one for 14 years running, as well as being involved heavily in the upkeep of other courses in the area, should step back and consider that before placing judgment on my "dramatic" entrance here and my "attack" on what I consider to be an overly negative minded member of this forum here, and his very biased "reviews" of our local courses. It would be one thing if my course had already had several reviews when he broke in there with his one negative one. That's not what happened though. He took a clean slate and poured graffiti all over it. Yes, he has set the pace for others to follow, and does so on his other "reviews" as well. If this website is all about course reviews then those type of reviews should not be allowed (biased from the very beginning). It would not be any more fair for a course designer, owner, and builder, to review his or her own course for others to go by when perhaps traveling on the road looking for a course to play along their trip. I've had many people hit my course up while traveling up the east coast from Fla to Maine or where ever. I'm in the PDGA directory. Look me up. I've never had anything from my guests but praise and "thank you for letting me play such a beautiful course". Then I come here and see this snotty little review by someone who should stick to reviewing fantasy courses. Yes...I'm offended. I take course reviews seriously when they will be seen from now on, by hundreds of people.

I won't stoop to reviewing my own course but I'll tell ya what I will do. I'll send this link to others in my area who can give their own reviews or at least comment here in this thread. They can in turn send it to whoever they want so that people in NY, all the way down to Fla will have something else to go on if you happen to be in NC sometime and are trying to decide on a course to play.
I've got a friend down there in Clearwater Marv. His name's Ken Climo, maybe you've heard of him. Ask him next time you see him about Shannon and his friends up here in NC...

I'll close by saying again to the rest of you, I didn't come here stir the turd. I came here to try and flush it.

I'll post some pics of my course here and then send the link to some others who have open minds when it comes to disc golf.

Sorry for the long post...it's my last one like this.
Promise.:)

And thanks for the welcome Donovan

[ShannonHG]

I believe (obviously) that it's totally unacceptable for him to go around trashing the area courses like he does in his "reviews". He talks just to hear himself yak and doesn't understand the kind of consequences that could come from his drivel. He even had mostly negative things to say about Cedar Hills, one of the oldest and best designed courses on the whole east coast, and home to many upper level PDGA events. Why was it necessary to say "there was even a dead man found on the course last year"...WTH does that have to do with disc golf? That can happen anywhere!
I've never met the guy, I don't think...which brings up another matter...how the heck did he manage to play my course to get all the "dirt" for his negative review, without first meeting me??? It obviously wasn't in a tournament. It couldn't have been with permission because I make a point of meeting every single person who comes to play my course. Each group is given a map and an introduction to the course and some of the things to look out for. This guy says he didn't even know I had a map. Therefor I'm even more unhappy that he managed to sneak onto my own property, where I live, and then go and try to do harm to my course's reputation with his blistering "review".

I will be sure to let all the other private course owners in NC know to look out for this guy.

[petecarp]

wouldn't reviews be kind of pointless if they were all good reviews? the reviewer obviously has an opinion...HIS opinion about the course. you cannot fault a man for having a personal preference in the course he plays. this man is actually doing you a favor ShannonHG, with his review there will no longer be homemade basket-hating bad review giving people like him on your course because those people will come here, read the review, and choose another course to play. it is absurd for you to fault him for not liking something you obviously took a very long time to create. i realize that having something you put your blood and sweat into badly reviewed is troubling, but that comes hand in hand with creating something...it WILL be critiqued. you dont see hollywood directors ranting and raving everytime their movie is poorly reviewed in the paper. so maybe you can take this experience and flip it around into something positive. take the semi-constructive criticism that was given and use it when you go to build your next course, and when that reviewer comes back to play another one of your courses he will be in for a surprise. ranting and raving about the criticism you are receiving about something you pride yourself on does not make you any better than the original reviewer. your course is obviously your opinion on how a disc golf course should be made, his review is his retort to that opinion, then you went on and rebutted his opinion. if youre claiming he is in the wrong, then you must be too. i personally cant wait to play your course and review it.

[ShannonHG]

Well you obviously didn't get my point either...oh well...no worries. Hopefully you don't believe everything you read.

http://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5635&posted=1#post5635

[oakley doakley]

I think ShannonHG courses stinks and I have never played it. And I am telling everybody I KNOW!!! THATS MY OPINION......

[Three Putt]

I probably don't get it either.

I got a threatening email a few years back from a guy who was ticked about something I said on another site about a course he worked on. "Come back to Mokena...if you are man enough" was basically what he said. Anyway, there was no pleasing the guy, but I understood why he was mad. He spent a lot of hours in meetings to get permission for the course, spent a lot of hours behind a shovel to install the course and put his own money into projects on the course. To him, it was a labor of love. For some guy who had nothing to do with any of the hard work it took to make that place happen to show up and say, "Its average" was a terrible insult to him.

In the end there was never any discussion about the substance of the particular criticisms I had of the place, just a discussion about whether someone who had not worked on a course had the right to say anything bad about it. This issue, I'm afraid, will come up again on this site.

[sfeather]

Wow. Name dropping, juvenile ranting, screaming, whining and complaining.
I thought that DGC had managed to escape most of that behavior.
Guess not.

"Private Courses are good, all are welcome, unless you don't give me a good review or somehow play when I'm not around."

I'm now afraid to play your course, lest I get shot for trespassing or having the potential to give you a poor review.

[sfeather]

Actually, a better suggestion would be to remove this course from the directory.
This would:
1. prevent future negative reviews.
2. keep unwanted folks off the property (doesn't really make sense to have your course in a public directory if you reference "invitations" and "without permission")

Whats worse than a SINGLE bad review? Opening your mouth on the Internet.

[DGtourist]

Here's a tagline idea...

DGcoursereview, designers hate us, players love us.

Nothing I hate more than the local club/pro/designer not listening to suggestions and outside ideas and getting into a twist when a lone person doesn't act like they are God. This happens a lot, I can see the labor of love and its always appreciated, honestly, most of us wouldn't play the courses if it were for the sacrifice of these people. That doesn't excuse people from not trying to raise the bar. It would have been worse for us users if that reviewer had rated the corse like Idlewild and that's what we expected when we got there.

The way I see it there are some options, put in signs, or not put in signs and hear the occasional gripe, or not put in signs and get into an argument with people who think the course would be better with signs.

[johnt1969]

Shannon,

I feel that I need to reply about a couple things you commented on and then I would like to offer up a compromise regarding my review. I want to do this because I really think you should know that I appreciate the hard work it takes to put in and maintain a course and I wasn't trying to insult you.

Firstly. Regarding playing your course. I would never sneek on to a private course or play one without paying. I've played many courses because I used to tour extensively. I've also played a lot of home made courses. Some I liked and some I didn't. But anyway. I played two rounds on your couse last year when the Homegrown Tour was there. I also did meet you. We had a short and cordial conversation. You were busy with the tournament so our conversation was not long. Your land is beautiful and very well cared for. I can tell that you have put your heart and a lot of sweat in to the course and your land.

Secondly. Regarding Cedar Hills. I rated that course a 3.5 which is between good and excellent. I play there all the time and I feel that my review of the course reflects that I enjoy it. When I toured I would drive over 9 hours one way to play the Dogwood Crosstown Classic because I liked Cedar Hills (Kentwood.... not so much). But... with that said. I still think there are some negatives about the course. It's not perfect. The short tees utilize those precast concrete grates that I think are originally used to go around trees in the city. They have large slats in them and occasionally your feet get stuck in them. That's a con. Also. You can't tee off on hole 1 until the players on hole 2 have thrown their drives because there is a good chance of hitting them. Not only is it a con because you don't want to hit them but it causes huge backups when you're playing tournaments. I also mentioned that the park is not the safest place in the world. There are people walking around in the middle of the course, occasional fights on the basketball courts and there was someone found dead there last year. This information is useful because, at a bare minimum, it lets you know that you shouldn't drop your bag at the tee and then leave it to go scout the hole. It might end up missing when you get back. That info is no different than saying to watch out for alligators in the ponds (on a course in Florida) or beware of mountain lion in Lake Tahoe (or wherever Mountain Lions live).

Lastly. Regarding my review of Higher Ground. There are two important things I've learned from being married. One is to be honest and I have tried to do that. I admitted not remembering some of the pins were normal and that there were maps. The other is to learn to compromise. With that said I'm more than willing to do something with that review to make you happy. I've come up with 3 options that I can think of. Please let me know if you have another option. Mine are listed below.

- I can leave the review as is. (Obviously not acceptable)
- I can rewrite the review. If I do this I will try to take out my sarcasm and be as detailed as possible about the things I consider pros (private course, water holes, clean and well maintained land, different courses depending on how you play the tees, a little bit of topography). I will also be detailed about the things I consider cons (tee signs, crossing fairways, shared fairways, home made baskets, no poured concrete tee pads). These are things I feel strongly about though. At the end, before my standard disclaimer, I will encourage people to try your course. Like I said in the original review, I know a lot of people here like it but it just wasn't what I like look for in a course.
- The last option is that I can have Tim remove the review for the time being and then I can post one at a later date after others have posted reviews. This web site is fairly new (I just found it about a month ago) so there haven't been tons of people who have seen that review. This is an option that I don't mind doing if you want me too. Like I said. I'm not here to make enemy's. I'm just writing my opinion about courses and I have STRONG disc golf opinions that go well beyond courses. I also think that you should write a review. Even if you think it's biased it will still be very useful because you have intimate knowledge of the course that should be shared with everyone.

Let me know what you think.

John

[petecarp]

that my friend, johnt1969, is the high road or in this case the high ground

[ShannonHG]

John I think I was very clear that I want your original assessment of my course taken down. You were "sarcastic", you were misinformed, you have never met me for long enough to actually get to know me and be properly introduced to the course. If you had been, you would never have come away from here with the same attitude towards the course and the important details (like the maps that I have always had available for the specific reason that there are no tee signs, other than the painted markers on the tees themselves, which I might add all point in the general direction of the pin, and have the distance and hole number right there for you to see.)
It has been almost a whole year now since you have even been here...yet you wrote a "review" just last month. No wonder your memory wasn't so hot and you didn't even remember all the baskets. Things change too on private courses. They don't need to be labled by a timestamp, then judged by people who have never even seen them, on an internet website. I take some of the things you said very seriously. Obviously you did not. You even contradicted yourself in this last post saying .....
"Your land is beautiful and very well cared for. I can tell that you have put your heart and a lot of sweat in to the course and your land."

That's a lot different than.....

"They're all short. I personally can't stand home made baskets and every basket here is home made. Most are different and some are silly. Because of the lack of land there's some holes up around the houses. They're not pretty holes and i'm not a fan of that. I think golf courses should be beautiful places."

Can't you people see that I'm not here to complain about a bad review? I'm here to complain about an untrue, dishonest review. I'm complaining only because I did a search for my own course on this website and this is the ONLY review that is there by my course's name. True...it's a young site, and true...you are a newer member like myself, but this is not the mind of thing I want to see others read about my course unless you have facts to back every bit of it up. Maybe you should not only refrain from reviewing private courses that you don't even like anything about, but you should at least consider meeting and getting to know the owners, and playing them more than just once at a busy tournament with over 80 players in the field of 18. Then when you do a review, you might consider doing it before 11 months has gone by. Courses evolve. Most public courses don't change hardly at all, for decades, unless a natural disaster occurs like the one that changed Cedar Hills so drastically. Private courses change a whole lot faster than that and this should be taken into account when posting things about them so judgemental.

[johnt1969]

Shannon,

I'll email Tim and have him remove the review of your course. I still think that you should post a review of your course because you have more intimate knowledge of it.

Just to clarify. I never said your land wasn't beautiful. I mentioned that I didn't like the holes up near the houses and didn't consider them beautiful.

I know you don't like my style of reviewing or the criteria that use to review a course but I'm not going to stop reviewing other courses because of it. It's not practical for me to try to find the designer of every course and ask that person why there are no concrete tee pads or why they havent replaced vandalized tee signs. I know that some parks don't let you put in tee pads and I also know that at places like Cedar Hills, if you replace the tee signs they will just get destroyed again. It's a shame we have to deal with those things but they are "cons" and that's the kind of thing to put in the cons section. It's also a shame that Disc Golf struggles much to get recognition because of the pot smoking element that is always lighting up at some of our most prestigious events. But it is what it is and the cons deserve to be mentioned just as much as the pro's do.

This site is about reviewing golf courses. I will obviously update my reviews if I play a course and it has changed. Even if I don't, the reviews that come after mine will hold more weight because they are more recent and accurate description of the current conditions. If your course has significantly changed in the 9 months since I have played it then I apologize for my entire review because it's not accurate but I don't think that it has. Judging by the pictures and maps on the score cards that you posted my concers of crossing/shared fairways are valid on your course because you have them. They're obviously not a problem if there are just a couple people playing but with 80-100 people on the course at once they are valid. I'm glad no-one has gotten hurt there and I hope it stays that way. But that doesn't make the crossing fairways safe. It just takes one person to walk out at the wrong time or one guy to yank a drive and then those crossing/shared fairways won't look like such a good idea any more.

I'll email Tim and let him know I would like the review removed for now.

For anyone else interested in this course. I suggest you don't let our bickering stop you from playing Higher Ground. Shannon was cordial when I met him and even though we are obviously not in agreement about this site and the reviews it shouldn't stop you from trying out his place. In my opinionm the disc golf "purist" will enjoy the course he has put together. If you're more like me and feel that courses should be more standardized then you might not like it. But in either case, if you're in the area then you should judge it for yourself.

John

[oakley doakley]

Whats so great about this site is the members make it great. Tim did I great job setting this all up but it's all the members and all there different views that make it great. We all get to express are OPINION good or bad, informed or not. Player or designers of the courses. The review should stay if that's how you honestly feel. Screw what the Shannon thinks. It's not his review. He can say it wasn't helpful to him and submit his own review. Don't cave to his pissing and moaning. He just needs a beer, or maybe some sedatives. I have seen other reviews where one contradicted the other one. He can write a review and say yours is incorrect then when others go to the course they can decide which review was helpful. We all can see those ghetto disc catchers he has. That's a strike right there in my book. After all his ranting and raving I'll never go that POS. Just my OPINION!

[timg]

I'll give some thought as to what to do.. right now I'm strongly considering removing the course from DGCR entirely as there is no guarantee an outburst like this won't happen again should a less than positive review be posted by someone else. Quite frankly, I feel ShannonHG's attacks against John and the other comments he has posted have done far more damage than John's review ever could have. You never get a second chance to make a first impression and I think this entire thread has left a bad taste in everyone's mouth.

The whole idea behind DGCR is to share opinions, good or bad about courses. Some people won't like a course, some will.. same thing with movies, video games and any other creative endeavor. I can't remember the last time an artist/director/actor publicly attacked someone that gave their work a bad review.

I won't stand for reviewers being insulted and bullied in an attempt to have them change their reviews to fit into how someone else feels the course should be rated. I would rather remove or not allow reviews on a course if I and other DGCR members have to deal with this kind of ridiculous drama.

[basmith42]

Hey shannon..

An old college english prof of mine used to start each class with a drawing on the black board. It was a stick figure on the left and a manuscript on the right. Between the two was a "not equal" sign. The message he was conveying was "You ar enot your manuscript".

I've redrawn this hundreds of times since college. There's even a variant of it on one of my company's programer's bulletin board to remind him that he is not his code.

You are not your course. You can love your course. You can want the best for your course. You, however, are not your course.

That being said....
If I had the time and your course was close to a job site I was at.. I'd check it out regardless of the review. The reviews do sway my choices for courses when I'm traveling. But, pictures and maps make my mind up much more quickly than a bad review.

Of the courses I've reviewed, I've gicen as many bad reviews as good. I've had people mark my reviews as helpful as often as not. So, my views aren't everyone's view.

But, I'm just a rec player.

If you want to get some more reviews, then snap some pictures and share your course. Maybe invite some folk out.. host a bbq and dg day. I don't know. Fight a bad review with an honest good review. I bet its beautiful course that rec players (such as myself) would enjoy.

Isn't that what matters?

[DGtourist]

Whats so great about this site is the members make it great. Tim did I great job setting this all up but it's all the members and all there different views that make it great. We all get to express are OPINION good or bad, informed or not. Player or designers of the courses. The review should stay if that's how you honestly feel. Screw what the Shannon thinks. It's not his review. He can say it wasn't helpful to him and submit his own review. Don't cave to his pissing and moaning. He just needs a beer, or maybe some sedatives. I have seen other reviews where one contradicted the other one. He can write a review and say yours is incorrect then when others go to the course they can decide which review was helpful. We all can see those ghetto disc catchers he has. That's a strike right there in my book. After all his ranting and raving I'll never go that POS. Just my OPINION!

BAM! There it is right there! If I were Shannon, I'd edit my review only to state that the course designer will attack you if you express a negative opinion about his course. (With a link to this thread)! I have no doubt that Higher Ground is a fun place, and that it does have its flaws, but after this, I am happy to forgo bagging this course.

[DGtourist]

I'll give some thought as to what to do.. right now I'm strongly considering removing the course from DGCR entirely as there is no guarantee an outburst like this won't happen again should a less than positive review be posted by someone else. Quite frankly, I feel ShannonHG's attacks against John and the other comments he has posted have done far more damage than John's review ever could have. You never get a second chance to make a first impression and I think this entire thread has left a bad taste in everyone's mouth.

The whole idea behind DGCR is to share opinions, good or bad about courses. Some people won't like a course, some will.. same thing with movies, video games and any other creative endeavor. I can't remember the last time an artist/director/actor publicly attacked someone that gave their work a bad review.

I won't stand for reviewers being insulted and bullied in an attempt to have them change their reviews to fit into how someone else feels the course should be rated. I would rather remove or not allow reviews on a course if I and other DGCR members have to deal with this kind of ridiculous drama.

Just more evidence of Tim abilities as a super human! Viva DGCR!

[johnt1969]

Hi Tim (and others),

I know this is your site and you can do anything you want. And also know this thread got out of hand quickly but I would like to be on the books to say that you shouldn't pull his course from the site. That's not what the site is about and I'm sure you didn't envision having to do something like that when you decided to create it. I found and started using dgcoursereview as a replacement for the PDGA course guide before I ever got an account and I definitely think that all the courses should be here.

Regarding my review of Shannon's course. He's not the only person I've made very mad with a review in the short time that I've been reviewing courses. I've made another designer mad and we've been discussing it via PM. Our conversation has not been quite as heated as this one but it has ended up the same way. I've made another enemy. The key difference between the two is that Shannon's course is private. I wouldn't have offered to remove the review for a course on public land because of my strong feelings regarding safety.

Shannon is not a bad guy. I have met him. He was nice and he has a good reputation around this area. He is, obviously, very passionate about his course and disc golf. We need that passion for the sport. I do feel like he attacked me in the forum but he felt the same way about my review even if it wasn't my intent.

I think that as the site is used more and as people start to review his course it will receive good and bad reviews. I can see his point that painting a clean slate with a bad review is setting the course up for failure here because people will go in with a pre-conceived notion about it. I also understand that that's what the site is all about but his course is a lot different than most places we play. In my opinion he should be the first to review it because of that. When I hear multiple tee pads on a hole I think about short, medium and long tees. His course is not like that. It's more like safari golf. I love playing safari golf but I hate crossing/shared fairways more. Especially when there are a lot of people on the course. In any case... it will draw some semi bad ratings from people like me but the old school disc golf purist will probably really like it.

The main point of this message is that I would like you to keep the course on the site, remove my review for the time being and encourage Shannon to write a review. I'll go back and review the course again at a later date after some others have posted their thoughts. Hopefully the hard feelings between Shannon and I will pass and we can laugh about this if we run in to each other on a course somewhere.

If this whole thing with Shannon and the other course designer has taught me anything it's to try to keep my personality out of the review and to be more specific. Course designers don't like humor or sarcasm when you describe something that you think is a negative about their course. If you feel there is a tree in your follow through on a tee pad or something like that then you should be able to remember exactly what hole because someone is going to question it.

j


I'll give some thought as to what to do.. right now I'm strongly considering removing the course from DGCR entirely as there is no guarantee an outburst like this won't happen again should a less than positive review be posted by someone else. Quite frankly, I feel ShannonHG's attacks against John and the other comments he has posted have done far more damage than John's review ever could have. You never get a second chance to make a first impression and I think this entire thread has left a bad taste in everyone's mouth.

The whole idea behind DGCR is to share opinions, good or bad about courses. Some people won't like a course, some will.. same thing with movies, video games and any other creative endeavor. I can't remember the last time an artist/director/actor publicly attacked someone that gave their work a bad review.

I won't stand for reviewers being insulted and bullied in an attempt to have them change their reviews to fit into how someone else feels the course should be rated. I would rather remove or not allow reviews on a course if I and other DGCR members have to deal with this kind of ridiculous drama.

[ERicJ]

Wow... skip a couple days on the board and look at all the "fun" I missed...

Tim, I don't think you should pull the course from DGCR unless Shannon asks you to do so because he doesn't want his private course in a public directory.

I also don't think the review should be pulled. There will be good reviews and bad reviews, it's not possible to please everyone all the time. Nine people have found useful content in John's review as of this date. As Tim has said repeatedly the course rating will arrive at the correct average over time.

Shannon, do your own review of the course. State up front that you are the designer and have at what you like and don't like about it. Reviews on this site are going to be somewhat biased. There's no way to avoid that with much of the general population. Heck, read another DGCR thread and you'll find that some people consciously ignore the DGCR definitions of what the 0-5 disc rating scale is and apply their own value to what "3 discs" means. With that type of inconsistency you have to hope that with enough inputs the outliers will eventually be diminished.

I'm inclined to agree with a previous post that said this thread has done more damage to your course's reputation than the original review.

Now what I'm curious to see is Olorin's review of Higher Ground.

ERic

[Donovan]

All I can say about all this so far is it reminds me of cult like activity. That is when someone is trying to bully someone else into a view or an opinion. If some can not take criticism, without total retaliation, it does nothing but make it worse. Oakley has it right, "Let the people speak." This site was built in a nation of free speech, and it should live on. As far as what to do now...I do have a suggestion for timg to make his life easier.

timg, why don't you leave the facts of the course up and replace this course's review section with a statement. Have the statement say that this course is not available for review per the request of the owner. That statement will be all thhere is on that page. No reviews at all, not even from the owner. This way people can still find the course and decide whether or not they want to visit it on their own.

Now, if the designer doesn't want their course list at all. I would still keep the course on the site with a generic name, like "course name not allowed to be listed." No one can keep you from listing every course in the world, but you can be accepting of leaving the name off for their privacy.

Anyway just some ideas.

I am not fan of bullies of any kind and this thread never did get the apology or acceptance like I hoped it would. I did not see anything wrong with the review as it was in no way any different than any other reviews we have on here. I understand the passion one has for their hard work, but without accepting criticism and moving on, it just gets out of control. :(

[Texconsinite]

Amen. Quite Frankly, I am very disappointed at the way things turned out. I think your idea is a good one, Donovan. I tend to be a bit sarcastic as well, however, I have (sofar) had no problems with angry designers.

One of the biggest things I really enjoy and appreciate about this site (besides Timg's impeccable design and all the work he does to make it the best) is how the members treat each other.

I've read threads on other discussion boards, where some members just get on and act like total jerk-offs, and it is discouraging. I can't help but think, if I am discouraged by this, what would someone new to this sport, or this community think. There is a reason that this is the only DG site I post on. Its because the members are happy to discuss DG and talk with each other, just like the 99% of people I meet out on the courses. Good people who love the sport.

Every time I see something like this thread (on other sites), where someone has a problem with someone else, it is never about disc golf, its about someone having a problem with someone else. If you don't believe me, ask EricJ for the links to the Mozola threads. I'm pretty laid back, but one thing I am passionate about is respecting other people. I am saddened at the way this whole thing has been handled by the (two) parties involved.

When I saw the posted pics of Higher Ground, it looked really cool, and I wanted to play the course. I DID NOT read the actual review of the course, but at this point, I will never go out of my way to play there, not even five minutes. Shannon's comments are infinitely more damaging than any number of reviews ever could be. I have infinite respect for someone who designs or maintains a course, but if someone attacks others that disagree with them, I want no part of that, not even if they are the most knowledgeable/skilled course designer/disc designer/pro player in the world. In any sport.

I would like to thank all the members of this site who enjoy constructive discussions and realize that dissenting opinions are things to be explored, not squashed. You are the ones who make this forum what it is.

Timg, I think disallowing reviews on Higher Ground is a good solution, which will (hopefully) prevent future outbursts.

Shannon, please stop quoting parts of John's original review of your course, or anyone else's subsequent comments, then insulting them. You have beaten that horse to death already. However, I wish you the best on your course. It honestly looks like one of the best home courses I have ever seen, and if I played it, Im sure I would really like it and give it a good review.

To quote Forrest Gump: "And thats all I have to say about that."

[sidewinding]

When I saw the posted pics of Higher Ground, it looked really cool, and I wanted to play the course.

Have you seen the movie Deliverance?

[Three Putt]

Since I have not seen the course or met the people involved, I can't speak to the quality of the course or the fairness of the review. The larger issue for me it the ability for someone to bully their opinions at us and suppress the opinions of others. I would be in favor of:

1. Leaving the course on the site.

2. Leaving the original review on the site and leaving the decision to edit it up to the author.

3. Deleting this thread and all the nonsense that was posted on it.

Really, if we are going to freely post opinions, this sort of thing can't go on.

[ShannonHG]

Trying to talk to a bunch of juveniles here, who don't understand the concept that LIES were told about my course in a public review on your website, whether due to forgetfulness, sarcasm, or WTF ever, is totally and completely unacceptable. If the shoe was on the other foot, and Mr Tim here had his own course, and it was slandered on a public forum, I'm sure he would want the untruthful information REMOVED, just like my intent was with this pissed off thread of mine. Honestly I don't give two bleeps what ANY of you think of my course, or me for that matter, unless you have actually met me and played it. This is nothing but an internet site. I have ZERO to prove to any of you. My course has an excellent reputation and a huge following in my area. I get lots of people coming through here weekly that found my course in the PDGA directory. I've never heard anything but good vibes from them either. I'm listed with my town's amenities, and get calls from the town council directing visitors from afar to come here and play. I get calls from local church's, who want to bring their youth groups out here to play and learn about the sport. I have an open door policy to them. The local sports shop that sells discs in town, knows about us and has maps. You know how many of them give a bleep about this little forum and the criticism that abounds here? Bottom line is...99.999 % of the people who have actually seen the course and met the owner, LOVE the place. If you don't believe me, ask John or Lowe (Olorin) If you think I'm worried about anything you people have to say, or worried about things I might say to you in anger, doing damage to my course's or my reputation, you are sadly mistaken. I don't really care what you think. If you all act like this all the time, then whoever posted above was right, the bad review will hopefully keep snobby little golf geeks away from here.
I'll say it again....THE ONLY REASON I STARTED THIS THREAD WAS BECAUSE THERE WERE DIRECT LIES TOLD, IN A VERY MISLEADING POST ABOUT MY COURSE, WHETHER DUE TO "SARCASM", FORGETFULNESS, OR WHATEVER, DOESN'T MATTER. THE ONLY THING THAT MATTERS IS THE REVIEW WAS INACCURATE AND I CAME HERE TO STATE THE FACTS...GOOD OR BAD HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH IT! When a "review" is based on one person's extreme dislike of certain features, and it's tainted with a few untruths (on purpose or not), then it's nothing more than an opinion and the falsities are very misleading to the total picture. I would have done the same thing if he had posted a review saying he enjoyed the hell out of the course and especially liked the island holes (which haven't even been made yet).... or the jet powered golf cart free rentals were superb...If he had said we had two excellent holes that were over 600 feet, I would have come here just the same and made sure everyone knew these things were all false. If he said I had brought one of those baby gators back with me from last time I was down at Hilton Head, and had him trained to retrieve discs from the bottom of the pond, I would have refuted that too. One guy's fantastic or horrible review of my course isn't going to hurt me at all...what it does is mislead you guys. Coming here as a new guy and boldly stating these facts was a mistake on my part. I now see that. I should have known better from experiences with people on my forum. I was upset though, and tried to do something about it ASAP. I had hoped the admin here could read between the lines and see what I was saying... It's obvious to me that you don't care what I say either so let's just leave it at that. I have respect for Johnt1969 for being so understanding and diplomatic in the face of a verbal assault, which I believe was justified in public, just like the review is public, otherwise I would have just called him aside and asked him to straighten it out. The fact is, it was already in public and I wanted to make sure people got to hear my side. At least he understands where I'm coming from and isn't too stuck up and "cliquish" to admit he was a little off base with some things in his review, even went to the trouble to try and correct some of it. Then he was very fair in asking the admin here to pull his review, or write a new one if that's what I wanted done, at least for now til others have had a chance to check it out and write their own reviews. That wasn't him trying to "kiss ass", nor was it a result of being "bullied". That was John doing his best to be honorable and do the right thing for the long run...something you guys off in another state don't care anything about.
Tim I didn't "bully" anyone. I made my case against someone who admittedly went a little overboard with his words about my course, even if that is his writing style and he admits that. I apologize to him for being so hard on him for it here. I also apologize to you for dumping this whole load of bleep in your house. I think you should LISTEN to what he says, and what other members here who actually KNOW ME say, before you and your little cheerleaders crucify me any more. If this is what your site is really about, then I will be glad to let many others know about it.

Mr JOKEly DICKly there, gets away with throwing smartass insults at a new member here, as childish as he sounds, and others here do nothing but egg him on. What a great group of guys! You sound like the ones I would surely go out of my way to have in my group...NOT!

Unless you are afraid that people will come along and say more good things in my defense, or make good comments or reviews on Higher Ground, then maybe you should think before you act. I've had time to cool down about John, and after hearing what he has said, I'm willing to forgive him and move on. The only thing I'm having a problem with now is how the rest of you are jumping at the chance to judge me, after all I did was try and set the record straight about the exaggerated untruths in John's review. Forgive me for trying to correct what was wrong....I'm sure all of you would just sit back and let someone post slanderous remarks about something you believe in, that happens to be your own home. Don't worry about seeing further debates on the open forum, between John and I about whether "slander" is the right word. (We will settle the rest in PMs and you can listen to what he tells you or not). Call it what you want. Things were said that were false. That's the only thing that made me go off. Sadly, most of you will never understand that and see what has really happened here. Too busy playing keyboard commando instead. Internet forums are sometimes like that. They are made up of a small group of regulars, who band together and circle the wagons whenever a new guy comes along with a little too much to say, too fast, and / or too brash. I should know, I'm a moderator on a military assault weapons forum. You want to hear a bunch of guys talk smack and call it freedom of speech? Yeah...trust me I've heard it all. If I've been a little too "colorful" in my posts here, sorry, I'm used to hanging out with a bunch of grown men, Soldiers, Marines, Cops, Agents, Special Forces, we tend to be very outspoken about things we believe in. I allow a lot of things on my forum, and I don't censor either, but one thing I don't allow is people ganging up on someone, especially a new member we don't really know yet, and talking S*!T to them just to hear themselves blab, and have their buddies cheer them on. Grow up people!

Maybe you should have tried to see past my rudeness, and actually listen to what I was trying to say....Like John did.

[ShannonHG]

(cont.)

And to the guy who commented that private courses shouldn't be listed in a public directory, and permission to play shouldn't be required, It's obvious you don't even know anyone who owns and operates a course in their own back yard. Would you like to look out your bedroom, or kitchen window and see strangers walking around in your yard unannounced? How about your wife or girlfriend? Ya think she might be concerned for the safety of her young son, or be a little taken by surprise if she was hanging out laundry and a group of guys she'd never seen, just wandered around the corner? Or even worse, bombed in on her with drives while she's hanging up clothes?
You think maybe you might be a little irked, if you are out there on the tractor and have to keep stopping to let people play all around you? The grass doesn't cut itself son.
And you were so dramatic with your statements of being afraid you might get shot while playing if you trespassed? Well you don't know just how you managed to hit that one right on the head!
I would NEVER...I REPEAT NEVER aim a gun at an unarmed human being and I do NOT appreciate you suggesting I might....just more of the same juvenile keyboard commando BS!
That said, I live in the county, not in the city. We do fire weapons on the property, and OFTEN. That is one of the main reasons I tell everyone who comes here wanting to fish or play disc golf, that it is IMPERATIVE to call ahead first. How would you like to be out in your back yard, wearing ear protection and firing pistols, rifles, and shotguns... or even just about ready to fire.... and suddenly notice a group of golfers bumbling through the woods without permission? Yes sir, I think calling ahead is A GREAT IDEA.

All courses are not alike and some are VERY different. Private courses are most often people's HOMES. This makes many things you are used to in your city parks VERY different and not applicable to a "course review". Keep that in mind when passing judgement on people y'all don't know. IMO anyone who wants to do a public review of a private course, whether it's listed on a public directory or not, has a responsibility to the owner of that course to ask them if they want it reviewed or not.

If that had been done here, in this case, none of this crap would have ever happened.

There is one member here who I would trust...no wait...there are two members (out of those I know about so far) I would trust to give an unbiased review on Higher Ground.

Both of them have played my course numerous times and are very honest, down to earth, and trustworthy people.

Olorin and Discgnome

If either of these fine gentlemen would like to do so, they are more than welcome. I think it goes without saying that after all this, it would be hard for me to do a review of it on this forum without it being biased....at least not until all these hostilities cease. Like John said and your long time member Olorin can attest, I'm a very nice guy in person. I was crossed here and lost my temper. I'm sorry for that. I didn't come here to find a new place to hang out, I don't have time to run another forum and a disc golf course, and spend any real time here. If things had been different I may have never even registered here. If I'm not banned for my actions in this one thread (I have in fact been very civil in the two other threads I've replied in) then I will promise to refrain from any more outbursts on this forum.

Arguing on the internet is for retards.

And yes I too vote that this whole thread be canned since I have worked my problem with John out and the only thing keeping it alive now is the bickering from the membership who I can't really blame for not liking what they all had to log on and see. I would hope however, that you would at least leave it up
long enough (say 24 hours?) so that everyone who has posted here can read this last post of mine. I'm done with it now.

Sending John and Tim a PM now...

[ShannonHG]

Since I have not seen the course or met the people involved, I can't speak to the quality of the course or the fairness of the review. The larger issue for me it the ability for someone to bully their opinions at us and suppress the opinions of others. I would be in favor of:

1. Leaving the course on the site.

2. Leaving the original review on the site and leaving the decision to edit it up to the author.

3. Deleting this thread and all the nonsense that was posted on it.

Really, if we are going to freely post opinions, this sort of thing can't go on.

BINGO!

[timg]

The review will remain and the course will also remain in the directory unless I receive a request to have it removed.

I am locking this thread. I think it has run its course. (no pun intended)