extinct courses, redesigns, etc

[dreadlock86]

i am i the only one that is annoyed by how seemingly trigger happy people are to extinct a course and make a new page? maybe i just need to shut my mouth and quit whining but it seems like the new feature is overused.


as an example:
the beast in waco, TX (http://www.dgcoursereview.com/course.php?id=728)

a fine course that is undergoing some changes. the front 9 is being redesigned and the back 9 is a bit unkempt (i gather, haven't been in awhile).

so now the old page is RIP and the new page has reviews for the unfinished, redesigned course trickling in:
http://www.dgcoursereview.com/reviews.php?id=5062&mode=rev

and they give the impression that this central texas gem is not worth playing. i question whether a new course page was necessary at all and at the least, it should have waited until the new design was finished.


after seeing a few courses i've played become RIP after redesigns that really didn't change that much, i just question the logic of this new system. am i the only one?

[NDABRUSH]

i am i the only one that is annoyed by how seemingly trigger happy people are to extinct a course and make a new page? maybe i just need to shut my mouth and quit whining but it seems like the new feature is overused.


as an example:
the beast in waco, TX (http://www.dgcoursereview.com/course.php?id=728)

a fine course that is undergoing some changes. the front 9 is being redesigned and the back 9 is a bit unkempt (i gather, haven't been in awhile).

so now the old page is RIP and the new page has reviews for the unfinished, redesigned course trickling in:
http://www.dgcoursereview.com/reviews.php?id=5062&mode=rev

and they give the impression that this central texas gem is not worth playing. i question whether a new course page was necessary at all and at the least, it should have waited until the new design was finished.


after seeing a few courses i've played become RIP after redesigns that really didn't change that much, i just question the logic of this new system. am i the only one?

I read the new reviews and 1 or both of them admitted that it wasn't finished and I was wondering why write a review except for warning people that being open does not mean that it is finished. If it is as solid as the old reviews indicate, then it will be ready again one day. Too many DG addicts in Texas to let it go to waste.

[NDABRUSH]

If it is a major redesign like Wills in Ga., then I understand. If 2 or 3 holes were changed, then no.

[Lewis]

I read the new reviews and 1 or both of them admitted that it wasn't finished and I was wondering why write a review except for warning people that being open does not mean that it is finished.

exactly

[Three Putt]

It's the limitation of the user-based system. I've contacted Tim about RIPing a course, and he asked questions to make sure the move seemed necessary. Tim had to take me for my word that what I told him was accurate. He's not going to fly down to Texas and evaluate the course changes. So if somebody makes changing three of four holes sound like a "major redesign" when Tim asks for details, the course page will be RIP'ed.

FWIW, I have contacted Tim about RIPing a course twice. From my experience talking with him on those occasions, it's not something he takes lightly. One of the courses I contacted him about did not get the RIP.

I'll sadly have to talk to him again as unless there is a miracle, Creve Coeur park in St. Louis is going to be pulled. :(

[1978]

We RIP'd Bailey Road Park's 9 hole layout after I redesigned the course to 18 (now 20) holes. Kept 8 original pads but only 3 of the original tee/basket combo's.

Stumpy Creek went from 9 holes to 18, Stan &I kept 8 of the original holes and added 11 totally new holes but no RIP. It was a few years back though and I think it would have been RIP'd now.

What I don't like is when a course undergoes a complete overhaul, doubling size changing pad and basket locations, etc and you have years of reviews (9 hole course 2.5*) bringing the true rating down. Then all reviews after the change are 3-4.5's. I think it is good to RIP an overhauled course, unless the basic riginal layout stays almost the same.... for example: if you had an 18 hole course, par 54 and then added long tees and baskets and made another course overtop that is par 70 the old course shouldnt RIP.

This brings up a question. I am unsure if it is related to this thread. When is it acceptable to have 2 pages for courses on the same property. Is it use of similar fairways, pads, baskets... a different name for the layout. In Charlotte, Nevin Long and Short are clearly 1 course, however what about Hornets Nest "Web", Renny Gold, and Skillborne? The web course isnt just a long version of hornets nest, it feels like a completely different course. Should it have its own page?

[takman]

It's like the stupid new "app" that everyone has to use. It'll pass. I like the gravestone though.

[srm_520]

I have PM'd to extinct two different courses, and both times I make sure I walk the entire course, note there isn't anything left, and let Tim know all of that - but that's to get rid of a place completely. Old design to new design RIPs are a different story and I think only the people directly involved in the redesigned should PM Tim when they are ready.

Also you should always try to contact locals or a local DG group to confirm, if you want to do it right.

[scarpfish]

I've never PM'ed Timg to extinct a course, but I did PM him to bring one near me back from the dead after someone reported it extinct because he couldn't find some of the markers.
:rolleyes:

As for new or upgraded courses that are kind of in that playable but not quite complete phase (which we all know can go on for months) we also have folks who are trigger happy to submit the course, followed by other trigger happy people who then review it, and ding it because well, its not quite complete (as exemplified above), which will still reflect in the score when it is complete.

Perhaps its time to suggest new or upgraded courses get something akin to a probationary period which people can still mark it played, wishlist it, record scorebook entries, etc., but not be able to review it until it is reasonably complete, and the probationary period is lifted.

[DavidSauls]

I wouldn't mind seeing some way to tag reviews as pre-completion or pre-renovation. Some kind of marker that all reviews before a certain date are out-of-date; still available to read but the reader can take them with a grain of salt, and not to be included in ratings.

I've seen older reviews with information about navigation issues or starting holes that are no longer true. But they still have some useful information.

[curveball4]

Never thought about this before now, good info. Morningside Park in Knoxville is going through a complete Stan McDaniel overhaul. Still be 18, still in the same park (although more of the park will be used), but completely different holes. I've only seen a couple of them since the baskets aren't in yet but apparently it makes the old layout look pretty bad!

[MrFixIt]

Interesting thread...there is a course in GA that is for all practical purposes extinct. Victor Lord Park in Winder, GA.
The last time I went out (couple years ago) most of the baskets had been pulled and NO maintenance had happened on the course at all.
I've spoken w/ the Director of Barrow Co Parks and Rec and asked about the course and he replied that it was going to be re-designed in the near future (at least he was hoping).

From what I've gathered here, instead of asking a course to be pulled from the course site, it may be better to update w/ info on the non-playability...?

[DiscChainBasket18]

Interesting thread...there is a course in GA that is for all practical purposes extinct. Victor Lord Park in Winder, GA.
The last time I went out (couple years ago) most of the baskets had been pulled and NO maintenance had happened on the course at all.
I've spoken w/ the Director of Barrow Co Parks and Rec and asked about the course and he replied that it was going to be re-designed in the near future (at least he was hoping).

From what I've gathered here, instead of asking a course to be pulled from the course site, it may be better to update w/ info on the non-playability...?I like this idea ^^ ('Limited play' or 'Incomplete' or similar). I wouldnt recommend RIP unless it was completely removed or shut down.

[Dsplayname]

Interesting thread...there is a course in GA that is for all practical purposes extinct. Victor Lord Park in Winder, GA.
The last time I went out (couple years ago) most of the baskets had been pulled and NO maintenance had happened on the course at all.
I've spoken w/ the Director of Barrow Co Parks and Rec and asked about the course and he replied that it was going to be re-designed in the near future (at least he was hoping).

From what I've gathered here, instead of asking a course to be pulled from the course site, it may be better to update w/ info on the non-playability...?

I haven't actually played Victor Lord in a couple years either, but I'm pretty sure it's never going to get finished. It's unfortunate too, because some friends of mine were major sponsors of the course. All those geek-monsters in the Winder ghetto just can't have anything nice though, and continue to steal the baskets and signs.

I think my friends and I were the last ones to play Young Harris before it got pulled. Didn't know it was "closed for renovations," as nobody said anything at the front desk when we asked for course directions.

[MrFixIt]

I haven't actually played Victor Lord in a couple years either, but I'm pretty sure it's never going to get finished. It's unfortunate too, because some friends of mine were major sponsors of the course. All those geek-monsters in the Winder ghetto just can't have anything nice though, and continue to steal the baskets and signs.

I think my friends and I were the last ones to play Young Harris before it got pulled. Didn't know it was "closed for renovations," as nobody said anything at the front desk when we asked for course directions.

Yeah, I know a couple folks that got burned on the Victor deal...:confused:
It wasn't that bad of a course...made a nice Sunday afternoon playing Yargo the Victor.
I still haven't heard anything recently @ the re-design:(

[Alin]

And then there is the non-existent course at A.L. Anderson Park in Tarpon Springs FL. This is a proposed course only where we set up temporary baskets to fly a round one day. The very next day it's up here as a course. I'll take it as a sign that it will be approved by the county!!

[timg]

If a course is just in really bad shape, use the conditions to indicate that. I only RIP a course if it's completely removed or in such incredibly bad shape that it might as well be gone (ie. overgrown w/ all baskets broken, etc.).

As far as the redesign thing, I rely on people to give me the appropriate info and then I make the call as to whether a course needs a new page. The only time I do it is if there has been a significant redesign and/or new holes have been added that change the flow of the old layout. So if there is a 9 holer and 9 are tacked on to the end, I wouldn't RIP the old profile but if all of a sudden old #3 is now #7, old #5 is #9, etc. I would.

[timg]

And then there is the non-existent course at A.L. Anderson Park in Tarpon Springs FL. This is a proposed course only where we set up temporary baskets to fly a round one day. The very next day it's up here as a course. I'll take it as a sign that it will be approved by the county!!
Removed it :)

[MrFixIt]

If a course is just in really bad shape, use the conditions to indicate that. I only RIP a course if it's completely removed or in such incredibly bad shape that it might as well be gone (ie. overgrown w/ all baskets broken, etc.).
.

FYI,
Victor Lord Park in Winder, GA is un-playable as of at least a year ago.
There were only 3 baskets in the ground, and all 3 of them were bent over past a 45 degree angle.

[htorbit]

I think my friends and I were the last ones to play Young Harris before it got pulled. Didn't know it was "closed for renovations," as nobody said anything at the front desk when we asked for course directions.

The disc golf course at Young Harris College was not open to the public (only students) until campus construction eliminated many holes. Hopefully a redesign will be possible once construction on campus is finished and a plan has been made for the disc golf course. A mistake was when you were given directions to the course at the college. No one associated with the college put the YHC disc golf course on this website and therefore that is why it was removed. Once a redesign is completed possibly the college administration will revisit making the disc golf course open to the public.

[giles]

The OP has a good point about the bEast (cameron park east). The reviews are both rate it very low. I know Booter drove the hour plus from Austin more than once to play it, so it can't be that bad. The reviews basically say, lots of trash and no signage. Nothing about the course itself. Before the redesign it was an awesome course, easily 4 star or better.

[giles]

The OP has a good point about the bEast (cameron park east). The reviews are both rate it very low. I know Booter drove the hour plus from Austin more than once to play it, so it can't be that bad. The reviews basically say, lots of trash and no signage. Nothing about the course itself. Before the redesign it was an awesome course, easily 4 star or better.

I checked, it was 4.28 off 9 reviews, now it is 1.75 off 2 reviews. I don't think 9 of the holes even changed. I think they lost 9, and had to put 9 more elsewhere

[dreadlock86]

If a course is just in really bad shape, use the conditions to indicate that. I only RIP a course if it's completely removed or in such incredibly bad shape that it might as well be gone (ie. overgrown w/ all baskets broken, etc.).

As far as the redesign thing, I rely on people to give me the appropriate info and then I make the call as to whether a course needs a new page. The only time I do it is if there has been a significant redesign and/or new holes have been added that change the flow of the old layout. So if there is a 9 holer and 9 are tacked on to the end, I wouldn't RIP the old profile but if all of a sudden old #3 is now #7, old #5 is #9, etc. I would.

i assumed there was some sort of vetting going on but of course it can only be as good as the info you get.

i guess it just takes a little more to convince me it is warranted. i thought even the Parma redesign didn't really warrant it. slightly changed flow and only 4 new holes. oh well, it's not my site! :D

thanks, Tim! you do a great job.

[dreadlock86]

oh yeah, this all reminds me

can we get a link to the old layout pages on the new pages? pretty please?

[dreadlock86]

I checked, it was 4.28 off 9 reviews, now it is 1.75 off 2 reviews. I don't think 9 of the holes even changed. I think they lost 9, and had to put 9 more elsewhere

i bet the new 9 still uses some of the old holes too. how far away could they have put the new 9?

[Sadjo]

When a course is tweeked each year...with one or two holes redesigned, does the time come to get a new listing?

Chattooga Belle Farm has been the ground since July 2010. It is on a 138 working orchard and cattle farm. The owner continues to plant new trees and we had to redesign a few holes a couple of times and will be doing it again within the next month.

One day the original course and the current layout might have only one or two holes that are the same.

[DavidSauls]

When a course is tweeked each year...with one or two holes redesigned, does the time come to get a new listing?



That's been the case with Stoney Hill, though we've had a 2 year pause in the alterations. Building a pond and adding a few dramatic, perhaps signature holes, changed things a bit.

But I'd think, unless a significant number of older reviews are misleading, you shouldn't need to start over. If the hole info and photos are up-to-date, and most recent half-dozen reviews accurate, I think that's good enough.

[heelboycraig]

Never thought about this before now, good info. Morningside Park in Knoxville is going through a complete Stan McDaniel overhaul. Still be 18, still in the same park (although more of the park will be used), but completely different holes. I've only seen a couple of them since the baskets aren't in yet but apparently it makes the old layout look pretty bad!

When will the Stan's Mornside makeover be complete? I may be up that way later this spring, and I'd love to see Stan's 'evil' footprint. It'll make me feel like I'm still home.

[heelboycraig]

Stumpy Creek went from 9 holes to 18, Stan &I kept 8 of the original holes and added 11 totally new holes but no RIP. It was a few years back though and I think it would have been RIP'd now.

I asked Tim about this about 2 years ago, and he said that the 9-hole Stumpy layout should have been RIP'ed.

IMO, you need to RIP an old layout for reviews and ratings. In Stumpy's case, hole numbers were changed (old #2 became #5, old #7 became #16, etc), so some of the reviewer info is inaccurate.

[scarpfish]

IMO, you need to RIP an old layout for reviews and ratings. In Stumpy's case, hole numbers were changed (old #2 became #5, old #7 became #16, etc), so some of the reviewer info is inaccurate.
Another thing to consider along those lines are the scorebook stats, while they're kind of messed up already (they don't take different pins into account and a lot of folks enter their rounds on the wrong configurations), not RIP'ing the old layout will really mess them up, even if some of the old holes are still intact but have a new number.

[1978]

I asked Tim about this about 2 years ago, and he said that the 9-hole Stumpy layout should have been RIP'ed.

IMO, you need to RIP an old layout for reviews and ratings. In Stumpy's case, hole numbers were changed (old #2 became #5, old #7 became #16, etc), so some of the reviewer info is inaccurate.

Tim,
Can you archive the old reviews from before the course was updated to 18? Stumpy Creek? Only 6 original holes remain, and they are all re-numbered.

[DiscJunkie]

Northeast Creek Park in Jacksonville, NC got a total re-design and everything was handled exactly correctly (grammar?). The old info was RIPed and the new info was posted before I could get up there.
Very nice.

[timg]

To answer a few question, regarding Stumpy Creek, it's too late. Too much has been changed on there to RIP anything at this point. Stuff like that is why I changed it so only I can changed the # of holes on a course. I'll usually get an email like "hey, this is 18 holes now" and then I have to ask a bunch of questions.

Regarding courses that are constantly in flux... uh... I don't know. Stop changing them :) If it's just progressive changes I wouldn't RIP the course as reviews and scores will kind of go along with the constantly changing course.

scarpfish had a point and it's the other main reason why I RIP courses that have major redesigns (besides the reviews). If a course has a few holes shoehorned in between say hole 13 and 14 (13A and 13B or something) I'll just update the course to 20 holes and put those 2 holes at the end since it's not a major change and it will preserve scorebook order.

[1978]

Not RIP, is there a way to archive old reviews that under your new and improved system would only be contained in the RIP course. Especially for courses with a number of older reviews.

I guess it is the DGCR's responsibility to go back and update their reviews once a course has been totally re-designed, but some may never make it back to the course.

Stumpy Creek - I went back and looked, only 2 reviews were un-changed from the original review. I'm sure they bring down the average, but I guess in time they will wash out.

[timg]

I'm not sure what you mean, when I RIP a course everything on that page is done and a whole new page is created. There is no relation to the old page in the sense that they share reviews or anything like that. If you're asking can I make some review "not count" for an existing page, no I can't.