question on OB

[SAxDrc]

Today I played Tittabawasee trails in Freeland MI. On hole 5 there is a very small creek (one foot across maybe?) in the middle of the fairway. It rained yesterday and the creek was a bit higher that usual. I landed in either a slightly flooded part of the creek or a mud puddle close to it. My disc was fully submerged, so no question there.

The people that I was playing with didn't know how to rule it and neither did I. I ended up taking a penalty stroke because one guy said it was "an extension of the OB" or something like that. I wasn't sure because 2 days ago it would have been inbounds and probably by tomorrow afternoon it will likely be inbounds.

I don't really know how to word the question, but what is the official rule on "temporary water hazards?"

[BogeyNoMore]

Great question! I recall the creek you speak of (I can't believe I lost an orange JLS in it last May).

Temporary should be the same a casual water... you should be able to throw from behind on a line between your lie and the basket. The real question is how do you define temporary? If an area is regularly submerged when a creek/river is running high, I wouldn't think it's temporary.

Casual water to me is a large puddle. I'd think a dried out section off of a creek is luck of the draw that day... if the water's high it's OB, if the water's low, maybe not?

Hell now you got me thinking, I should consult The Rules...

[BogeyNoMore]

Doesn't seem the rules directly address whether or not an extension off a pond or creek would be considered casual. I think it's simply part of the water hazard. Forget the word extension, or however you might describe it. Sometimes a shot is a foot away from a lake (water hazard). That same lie could be OB if there was a lot of rain recently... luck of the draw.

Anyone got something else?

803.05 Obstacles and Relief
A. Obstacles to a Stance or Throwing Motion: With the exception of casual obstacles to a stance as described in 803.05 B, a player is not allowed to move any obstacle on the course. No relief is granted from park equipment (such as signs, trash cans, picnic tables, etc), which is considered part of the course. A player is allowed to request that other people remove themselves and/or their belongings from the player's stance or line of play. A player must choose the stance which results in the least movement of any obstacle. Once a legal stance is taken, the player may not move an obstacle in any way in order to make room for a throwing motion. It is legal for a player's throwing motion to cause incidental movement of an obstacle.

B. Casual Obstacles to a Stance: A player may obtain relief only from the following obstacles that are in the stance or run-up area: casual water, loose leaves or debris, broken branches no longer connected to a tree, motor vehicles, harmful insects or animals, players' equipment, people, or any item or area specifically designated by the director before the round. The player must first attempt to remove the obstacle. If it is impractical to move the obstacle, the player's lie may be relocated to the nearest lie which is no closer to the hole, is on the line of play, and is not more than five meters from the original lie, as agreed to by a majority of the group or an official (unless greater casual relief is announced by the director).

C. Optional Relief: A player may declare that he or she is taking optional relief. The lie may then be relocated to a new lie that is no closer to the hole, and on the line of play. The original throw plus one penalty throw are counted in the player's score.

D. In situations where it is unclear if an object may be moved or other relief obtained, it shall be determined by a majority of the group or an official.

E. A player shall receive one penalty throw, without a warning, for violation of an obstacle or relief rule.

F. A player who purposely damages anything on the course shall receive two penalty throws, without a warning, if observed by two or more players of the group or an
official. The player may also be disqualified from the tournament, in accordance with Section 3.3 of the Competition Manual.



803.09 Out-of-Bounds
A. A disc shall be considered out-of-bounds only when it comes to rest and it is clearly and
completely surrounded by the out-of-bounds area. A disc thrown in water shall be deemed to be
at rest once it is floating or is moving only by the action of the water or the wind on the
water. See section 803.03 F. The out-of-bounds line itself is considered out-of --bounds. In order to
consider the disc as out-of bounds, there must be reasonable evidence that the disc came to rest within the out-of-bounds area. In the absence of such evidence, the disc will be considered lost and the player will proceed according to rule 803.11B.

B. A player whose disc is considered out-of-bounds shall receive one penalty throw. The player may elect to play the next shot from:
(1) The previous lie as evidenced by the marker disc or, if the marker disc has been moved from an approximate lie, as agreed to by the majority of the group or an official; or (2) A lie that is up to one meter away from and perpendicular to the point where the disc last crossed into out-of-bounds, as determined by a majority of the group or an official. This holds true even if the direction takes the
lie closer to the hole; or (3) Within the designated Drop Zone, if provided. These options may be limited by the tournament director as a special condition (see 804.01).

C. The Rule of Verticality. The out-of-bounds line represents a vertical plane. Where a player's
lie is marked from a particular point within one meter of the out-of-bounds line pursuant to
the rules, the one-meter relief may be taken from the particular point upward or downward along
the vertical plane.

D. If the in-bounds status of a disc is uncertain, either a majority of the group or an
official shall make the determination. If the thrower moves the disc before a determination has
been made, the disc shall be considered out-of-bounds, and he or she shall proceed in
accordance with 803.09 B counting all throws made prior to the determination of the in-bounds status of the original lie. If a player other than the thrower moves the disc before a
determination has been made, the disc shall be considered in-bounds, and play for the thrower
and the mover of the disc shall proceed under the rules of interference, 803.07 B and C.

[Jay Dub]

If it was surrounded by running water then it's OB, if it's in a puddle then it's not OB and you get relief. That's how we always played it.

If the OP was in a puddle then I would say it wasn't OB. Unless the puddle was also surrounded by running water.

[jongoff09]

If it was surrounded by running water then it's OB, if it's in a puddle then it's not OB and you get relief. That's how we always played it.


I agree with this^. If the puddle isn't connected to the running water in any way, then I would call it casual.

That situation is why I am a fan of an actual line indicating OB for tournaments, but in casual rounds you will just have to agree to the OB rule before the round begins I guess.

[JoakimBL]

Water, running or not, is casual, unless declared as OB. So it depends on the local rules. If a creek is only a foot wide, it really should not be declared OB in my opinion.

[BogeyNoMore]

If it was surrounded by running water then it's OB, if it's in a puddle then it's not OB and you get relief. That's how we always played it.

If the OP was in a puddle then I would say it wasn't OB. Unless the puddle was also surrounded by running water. Not being a smart@$$, but I'm not sure I understand how a puddle can be surrounded by running water, without being part of that body of water.

Picture a relatively still pool connected to a creek. A fish could easily swim from the quiet pool into the creek and back. A disc lands in the pool - scared, the fish darts into the creek, leaving disc in the pool by itself: OB or not OB?

A week from now, the water level drops just enough to expose some land between the pool and the creek - fish can't leave the pool until the next thunderstorm. Disc lands in the pool with the fish: OB, or not OB?

Is the pool:
a) always casual water, never OB?
b) never casual water, always OB?
c) casual depending on whether the fish can come and go as it pleases?

That situation is why I am a fan of an actual line indicating OB for tournaments, but in casual rounds you will just have to agree to the OB rule before the round begins I guess. That's what my club does for tourneys. River is in play on a few holes. They they mark a line with flour at the top of the bank. Slide past the line and you're OB. Doesn't matter what level the water's at.

[Jay Dub]

Not being a smart@$$, but I'm not sure I understand how a puddle can be surrounded by running water, without being part of that body of water.


I've seen it many times and I'm sure you have too. For example, A creek is split by some huge bolder or rock formation, in the middle of the rock formation is a huge dimple, in that dimple is water. That's a puddle surrounded by running water.

The "surrounded by running water" rule is not hard at all to follow and has never caused anyone I ever played with a problem. I'm sure people can post how it's different on course A, B or C. OK, there are all type of scenarios and "what ifs"....in those cases common sense should come into play.

[Jay Dub]

Here's an example of a place where a puddle could be surrounded by water.

http://cgrc.mediaforte.com/RC9d.jpg

Click on this link, on the right is a creek at Lincoln Ridge. That always has water running on either side of the rock formation in the middle of the creek. Puddles form on those rock formations all the time but is not running water yet still OB.

http://www.dgcoursereview.com/view_image.php?id=730&p=61be7873

[Jay Dub]

oops, that link didn't work the way I thought it would.
This is hole 14 at Lincoln Ridge.

http://i1074.photobucket.com/albums/w407/JayDub57/Banklickhole14.jpg

[BogeyNoMore]

Thanks, (I recall that hole, what a beautiful course)!

I was picturing something different. I get the surrounded by water part now; if your disc lands somwhere thats surrounded by water, you don't get relief from OB just because you happen to land some where above the water, or on a boulder in that river - it was a bad shot, take a stroke and play from the point where it crossed over into OB.

I think my fish scenario is a bit different... that pool isn't surrounded by water, and depending on when you play, you might say it's:
a) actually part of the river/pond, or...
b) a seperate depression that happens to be holding water (a deep puddle).

[bombmk]

Water, running or not, is casual, unless declared as OB. So it depends on the local rules. If a creek is only a foot wide, it really should not be declared OB in my opinion.

This needs repeating.

In the case of the OP, if the course rules say that the creek is OB, then its OB if in the creek. No matter the size of the creek on a given day.

If "the creek" is designated by actual markings, then any water outside is casual.

[BogeyNoMore]

This needs repeating.

In the case of the OP, if the course rules say that the creek is OB, then its OB if in the creek. No matter the size of the creek on a given day.

If "the creek" is designated by actual markings, then any water outside is casual.

I guess that helps clear things up a bit... I was working from the assumption that amy pond or creek is OB... but that might vary from course to course.

[scarpfish]

A raging flash flooded river is in bounds until you have a rule declaring it to be OB. The rule as to where OB starts can be specific to that event and that day only if you wish.

The presence of water per se, running or not and how much there is really means nothing.

[JoakimBL]

A raging flash flooded river is in bounds until you have a rule declaring it to be OB. The rule as to where OB starts can be specific to that event and that day only if you wish.

The presence of water per se, running or not and how much there is really means nothing.

The OP question and following discussion is a great example of why that is.

[Brall]

another option, ask yourself if it would be considered O.B. at a tournament