Original Plastic?

[vlaminck]

I recently spoke to a veteran of the sport who told me he only throws discs in their original plastic(the plastic it was designed for/first released in). For example, the Innova TL is currently only in star plastic. He told me the wraith was designed in pro plastic, and he told me a few others as well.

I'm sure most people have thrown disc models in different plastics, and noticed a difference, but is this just preference?

Out of curiosity, if only for historical knowledge, I was wondering if anyone knew where I could find a list of discs and the plastic they were designed for. If such a list doesn't exist and anyone would like to share knowledge of any discs they know I'll be very grateful, and will start to compile a list that I could post somewhere for others who might be curious about this.

Thank you,
Steve

[JR Stengele]

I second that.

[Disc Golf Greg]

I'm pretty sure the Gazelle, and the Valkyrie started out in DX plastic.

[Disc Golf Greg]

More... I know most about Innova Discs...

- Monarch started out in Champion Plastic
- An obvious one... The Pig started out in Pro Plastic
- The Max is only made in Star Plastic.
- The X-Caliber original mold was in Star
- The Cheetah started out in DX and is only made in DX.
- I've been throwing the Viper for years and can tell you that it started out in DX.
- The Shark started out in DX
- Stingray has been around a long time and started out in DX.
- You can only throw The Wolf in DX.

[vlaminck]

Thank you Disc Golf Greg.

I've gathered info from the websites of both Innova, and Discraft, and have made a spreadsheet using Google Docs. I added to it all of the discs that are only available in one plastic, assuming that they didn't discontinue any lines. I've also added the info from Disc Golf Greg.

It is published here: http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=pk46YBYGdLDWrRW9M5sO_AQ

[Rbuzz9]

Did he explain why he only threw original plastics?
Is the school of thought that since the disc was first designed in such plastic that it will fly better in that particular plastic?

Did the person have lots of older molds that would have been created when only limited plastics were available? Seems like that would be the case.

i would think within the past few years a company would probably create a disc it would be able to produce in all of it's plastics if it wanted to. So whatever gets released first is basically the company's whim. So what gets released first doesnt mean a whole lot.

i havent been around very long- but lately it seems like Innova has been releasing some discs in one plastic: Xcaliber (star) Monarch (champion) Pig (pro) - but they offer most of their molds in DX

Discraft mainly releases their Drivers in Z or ESP/FLX - but seems to have fewer and fewer molds in D plastic

[Disc Golf Greg]

Great vlaminck! That is a very good resource...

Anyone reading it, check for errors. I assume it's pretty much all correct, but who knows for sure.

[Disc Golf Greg]

Did he explain why he only threw original plastics?
Is the school of thought that since the disc was first designed in such plastic that it will fly better in that particular plastic?

Did the person have lots of older molds that would have been created when only limited plastics were available? Seems like that would be the case.

i would think within the past few years a company would probably create a disc it would be able to produce in all of it's plastics if it wanted to. So whatever gets released first is basically the company's whim. So what gets released first doesnt mean a whole lot.

i havent been around very long- but lately it seems like Innova has been releasing some discs in one plastic: Xcaliber (star) Monarch (champion) Pig (pro) - but they offer most of their molds in DX

Discraft mainly releases their Drivers in Z or ESP/FLX - but seems to have fewer and fewer molds in D plastic

Yes that is true... but I'm pretty sure sometimes they alter the mold a little bit to make it fly correctly for the particular plastic. I can tell you I prefer the flight of a DX Shark to the mold in any other plastic. Now that may be simply because when I started DX was the only choice but who knows.

[garublador]

Do you want the original plastic for each disc, or what plastic is closest to the original that is produced now? The TL came out before Star even existed and I'm pretty sure the Panther is much older than any type of Champion plastic, too.

[Disc Golf Greg]

I believe the Panther was made in DX originally. I do not know about the TL. I'll try to find that out though.

[vlaminck]

Do you want the original plastic for each disc, or what plastic is closest to the original that is produced now? The TL came out before Star even existed and I'm pretty sure the Panther is much older than any type of Champion plastic, too.

That's a good point. I didn't even think about plastics that aren't around anymore. It would be interesting to know the original plastic.

Did he explain why he only threw original plastics?
Is the school of thought that since the disc was first designed in such plastic that it will fly better in that particular plastic?

Did the person have lots of older molds that would have been created when only limited plastics were available? Seems like that would be the case.

i would think within the past few years a company would probably create a disc it would be able to produce in all of it's plastics if it wanted to. So whatever gets released first is basically the company's whim. So what gets released first doesnt mean a whole lot.

i havent been around very long- but lately it seems like Innova has been releasing some discs in one plastic: Xcaliber (star) Monarch (champion) Pig (pro) - but they offer most of their molds in DX

Discraft mainly releases their Drivers in Z or ESP/FLX - but seems to have fewer and fewer molds in D plastic


He said that he threw original plastic only because that's what it was designed for, and that when different plastics cool differently causing slight differences when using the same mold. I'm not sure if they make different molds for each plastic or not, but I thought his reasoning was interesting.


Also, should I change the panther to DX then?

[Disc Golf Greg]

Yes, The Panther is only listed in Champion, and DX. The Panther was around before the Champion days for sure. So it's gotta be DX.

[vlaminck]

Yes, The Panther is only listed in Champion, and DX. The Panther was around before the Champion days for sure. So it's gotta be DX.

Done. Thank you.

[Rbuzz9]

He said that he threw original plastic only because that's what it was designed for, and that when different plastics cool differently causing slight differences when using the same mold. I'm not sure if they make different molds for each plastic or not, but I thought his reasoning was interesting.


I like traditionalist approach. Tho i think there is a lot of benefit to using an older disc made with a durable plastic.


does anyone notice a big difference between star and champion discs of the same mold?

[Jungle Tim]

Something else to throw in the mix is how discs have been born from moulds and plastic. Take the SL for example, it original was just a star fire in Pro Plastic. I believe that Pro Plastic is considered in some cases to give superior glide / turn. Firebird - FL and Star Fire - SL are obvious as the firebird and starfire are not available in pro.

does anyone have any ideas about the TeeBird to TL birth. The Teebird is not available in pro and neither is the TL but hey are both available in star....

jungle

[t i m]

Something else to throw in the mix is how discs have been born from moulds and plastic. Take the SL for example, it original was just a star fire in Pro Plastic. I believe that Pro Plastic is considered in some cases to give superior glide / turn. Firebird - FL and Star Fire - SL are obvious as the firebird and starfire are not available in pro.

does anyone have any ideas about the TeeBird to TL birth. The Teebird is not available in pro and neither is the TL but hey are both available in star....

This is where some confusion can come into the system because of how Innova has named their discs on some of these molds.

The original Teebird was the TL mold (released in DX), but it was called, simply, "Teebird" -- it later was released in the original CE (Champion Edition) plastic, back ~2001, and that was followed by some CE Teebirds that were marked "TX" -- or Teebird-X.

The X-denoted a more overstable version (with a lip on the rim) of the regular Teebird (no lip on the rim). Both rim formations had the same hotstamp on the front and only the letters were different on the back. When you ordered a disc, you didn't know which you would get.

Sometime a couple of years ago, as they were changing around plastics (doing away with CE, moving to other premium plastics), they changed which disc was the standard "Teebird." What used to be the TX (with the lip), is now the standard "Teebird." What used to be the standard Teebird (no lip) is now called the TL.

There are similarly confusing stories for some of the other most popular Innova discs, namely the Eagle and the Firebird. So whomever was saying they "only throw discs in their original plastic" and has the "TL" in Star plastic is missing their history. They should be throwing the TL in DX plastic, because that's how the mold was originally created -- it was just called "Teebird" instead of TL back then.

Fortunately, no matter what the name, pretty much every Eagle, Firebird, or Teebird I've ever picked up (except some of the Pro Line Teebirds) have been great discs and worthy of a place in the bag.

[Disc Golf Greg]

Yeah I love the Firebird and Teebird... I throw them mainly in Champion plastic but I have a DX Teebird which I'm trying to get nicely beat in.

[JR Stengele]

I have a KC Pro Cheetah, so it might have started DX but HAS been made in other plastics. I wonder why they stopped making it in pro?

[Three Putt]

He said that he threw original plastic only because that's what it was designed for, and that when different plastics cool differently causing slight differences when using the same mold. I'm not sure if they make different molds for each plastic or not, but I thought his reasoning was interesting.Here is an example for you. The Discraft Cyclone. It was originally introduced in Tournament plastic, which is no longer available. It is a lower grade plastic, kind of between D and X. It shrunk a lot during cooling, so the Cyclone came out as a fast small diameter driver. In '93 it was as fast as anything on the market. In Innova-speak, it is very comparable with a Gazelle.

Being a popular mold, when the high density plastics came out Discraft ran the Cyclone in Z plastic. Z plastic is much denser and does not shrink like the Tournament plastic did. So in tournament plastic the diameter of the Cyclone is 21.3 cm. In Z plastic the diameter is around 21.6 cm. Plus the density of the plastic makes the disc behave more overstable. As a result, the Z Cyclone in Innova-speak is very comparable to a Viper.

So just by switching the plastic, you can dramatically alter what kind of disc you are producing. Unfortunately, the manufacturers use the same description for the discs in every sort of plastic, so you can end up buying a disc like a Z Cyclone and wonder what you are doing wrong since it behaves nothing like the description. It's part of the trial and error of choosing your disc.

As was mentioned, Innova tried to address this with the X and L molds, but in the process have confused a bunch of people by selling more than one disc under one name. Anybody who has thrown a Champ Starfire and a Pro Starfire can tell you how bad that can get. But I'm not sure there is a good answer. Innova sells something like 55 discs in four plastic lines, something like 112 different discs + CFR discs and OOP disc like the Pro TeeBird L that are still around...and that is just one manufacturer. With the number of disc we are talking about on the market today it is going to be confusing, no matter what the manufacturers do.

[Riley]

Which discraft plastic is closest to innova star plastic?

[ERicJ]

Which discraft plastic is closest to innova star plastic?
ESP.

ERic

[Riley]

Thanks.

[DWill]

I just did some quick research on the Wayback Machine (http://web.archive.org/web/*/http://www.innovadiscs.com/) for Innova.

Their first listing for April 15, 1997 list these discs:
CHEETAH, RAVEN, GAZELLE, BARRACUDA, SCORPION, VIPER, WHIPPET, SHARK, STINGRAY, PANTHER, COBRA, XD, ROC, MORAY, AVIAR PUTT/APPROACH, BIRDIE PUTT/APPROACH, POLECAT, PIRANHA and ZEPHYR

I think it's safe to assume these were all made in DX plastic. More research could probably reveal when all molds and plastics came out within a reasonable degree of accuracy. I'm sure the same thing could be done for Discraft, et al.

[ERicJ]

I just did some quick research on the Wayback Machine (http://web.archive.org/web/*/http://www.innovadiscs.com/) ...
WHOA! :eek: That's the coolest web utility I've seen in a long time.

ERic

[Three Putt]

I just did some quick research on the Wayback Machine (http://web.archive.org/web/*/http://www.innovadiscs.com/) for Innova.

Their first listing for April 15, 1997 list these discs:
CHEETAH, RAVEN, GAZELLE, BARRACUDA, SCORPION, VIPER, WHIPPET, SHARK, STINGRAY, PANTHER, COBRA, XD, ROC, MORAY, AVIAR PUTT/APPROACH, BIRDIE PUTT/APPROACH, POLECAT, PIRANHA and ZEPHYR

I think it's safe to assume these were all made in DX plastic. More research could probably reveal when all molds and plastics came out within a reasonable degree of accuracy. I'm sure the same thing could be done for Discraft, et al.If you look up the approved disc list on pdga.com (which I am to lazy to link to) it gives the approval date for each disc. Some of it is fubar as it has some mistakes, especially on a few older molds. However, it is probably 98% accurate.

[RustyP]

This guy who throws only "original plastic" must have a really hard time replacing discs, because the base-plastic blend that most disc manufacturers use today isn't the same as it was 10-15-20 years ago (in some cases, like Innova, it isn't even the same blend they used 2 years ago). If you can get your hands on an old San Marino Roc and a current re-issue San Marino Roc, the differences will be very apparent. Same disc mold in different blends of the "same" plastic = slight differences in flight characteristics.

Same goes for premium plastics too...for example, Innova Champion plastic has at least 4 distinct blends that I have experience with: matte/opaque plastic that seems indestructible (original CE plastic), pearly/swirly/opaque plastic (eg - first run Orcs and Monsters), clear/glassy/slick plastic, and the current opaque plastic that isn't as durable as the original (eg - 12x Champ Teebirds).

[t i m]

Same goes for premium plastics too...for example, Innova Champion plastic has at least 4 distinct blends that I have experience with: matte/opaque plastic that seems indestructible (original CE plastic), pearly/swirly/opaque plastic (eg - first run Orcs and Monsters), clear/glassy/slick plastic, and the current opaque plastic that isn't as durable as the original (eg - 12x Champ Teebirds).

Good points. The new opaque champion plastic is pretty poor, IMHO, compared to the run before it (clear)...

but somewhere in there, you missed a fifth, distinct blend that appeared after the opaque CE plastic but before the Champion plastics -- there were some translucent, tacky, squishy, grippy, taffy-ish runs of CE plastic that were very different from other champion (or CE) runs.

Of course, adding a fifth distinct blend supports your point. And add to that the countless variations within any of those five broad categories, and you're talking about dozens of different plastic blends just across one manufacturer and one line of discs.

[RustyP]

You are correct about the 5th type...forgot all about that. I've got a 153 CE Valk at home in that gummy plastic. Who knows, there might be more than that...

The fact that there are SO MANY variations between runs and plastic is just one of the many reasons why developing general skills is MUCH more important than learning to control a particular disc.

[chris deitzel]

i will help out with this list later but for today.


The TL. Actually the Teebird came out first in DX plastic back in 1998. It was realeased at the same time as the Eagle, Firebird and then the Valkyrie.

The TeeBird was then made in Special Edition plastic in 99 or 2000. The Special Edition discs were the first chance to get a TL. THey made both the T and the TL in Special Edition plastic.

Special Edition did not last long, and it was replaced with the Pro Line plastic Teebirds, once again the T and the TL mold. Pro Line was basically the same plastic as the Special Edition plastic. Then came the Champion Edition TeeBirds. Which then switched to Pro Line Teebirds for about 5 months (which was actually Champion plastic. That was the end of the original CE.

With that confusion, the pro line name was switched, and the discs were now named Champion.

The TL was last run in CE plastic in 01 -02. There were also CFR TL's released from 02- 04 I believe.


How was that for confusing. I pretty much know the order of plastic for all innova discs.

[chris deitzel]

The original Teebird was not the TL version. Also the original DX Teebird had a different stamp then the one you see these days. It had a bird sitting with its wings closed. NOt even close to what it looks like now.

And you could order either TL or T teebirds when they began making them in Special Edition plastic.

[chris deitzel]

Cheetah was made in DX first. Then there was the Special Edition Cheetah with the ring stamp like the 8x KC pro discs. Whippets, Gazelles were also made in this special edition plastic. This special edition plastic was quite different than the SE plastic used for the Teebirds made a few years later. I believe these Cheetahs in the SE plastic were from the 7x run of KC discs.

Then the Cheetah was made in Pro Line plastic, but not the pro line we have now. It was made in the PRo Line that was made just after the CE discs were discontinued. Which is actually the same as Champion plastic would be now.

The very first Cheetahs had the large INnova Star stamp on them, and they said POGA approved. Misprinted, should have read PDGA.

[chris deitzel]

Panther was a DX disc first for sure. It was retooled to make the Gremlin. The panther came out in the early 90's. Has also been made in Champion plastic and I think that is all.


Stingray came in DX back in 1987 or 1988. It actually had 7 rings on the bottom of the disc molded in the plastic. They were very domey and had a big nipple in the center on the bottom of the disc. Super stiff and awesome. Same as the old Cobras, and Hammers. There may have been more 7-ring discs also.


What other discs do you want to know about?

I've got some good resources playing with 2 players with PDGA numbers lower than 1000 for the last 15 years has given me some good knowledge of the history of discs. If there is anything in particular you'd like to know, post it. Maybe I will make a list when I'm bored.

[DeafDiscGolfer]

I'm fascinated with your knowledge of history and I do like history! :)

I fell in love with JLS because it worked so well for me for long time. Then got the dyed QJLS and it worked a lot better than the DX JLS. I tried to throw the non-dyed QJLS and it seems doesn't do well for me. Does the dyed have any effects to QJLS? It seems feel more stiffer in that way. Maybe its all in my head...

Same thing for my also other favorite disc which is Champion Cobra. I prefer throw it dyed than non-dyed for the same reason as QJLS. Weird, huh?

Anyway, I'm interested to know more about the history of JLS and its rating number that have been changed so many times. I remember when I first got the early JLS release and it was marked as 1.0, I think.

Now I see today's JLS marked as 1.9 or 1.15 or whatever. Why is that? Is that the numbers of runs or flight rating or something?

Also, is it true that some certain Innova DX discs cannot be made into Champion or Star plastics due to its molding that seems to work best with DX plastic instead of other kinds? Or its just by popular demands?

I wonder why Cheetah or XD discs weren't made into champion production yet. But I did have CFR Star XD and it wasn't the same flight pattern as DX XD does. Interesting... maybe needs a lot of break-ins in that star plastic to meet the DX XD's standard. I do also have 10X KC Pro Cheetah which can be the closest thing to champion type so far. Innova doesn't make any more of Pro Cheetahs, of course...:rolleyes: But its flight were pretty good as its DX's with some bit of break-ins. I haven't get my hands on the CFR Star Cobra yet but I do know that Champion Cobras is becoming OOP but the DX version is still out in the market everywhere.

Ever wonder what the Star Cheetah or Champion XD would feel like...you know? I would grab couple of Champion XD's the first thing it comes out. I wouldn't mind to buy a nice one or two CFR Star Cheetah if there's one someday...

:eek: So, Fire Away! Educate Us! :cool:

[garublador]

Anyway, I'm interested to know more about the history of JLS and its rating number that have been changed so many times. I remember when I first got the early JLS release and it was marked as 1.0, I think.

Now I see today's JLS marked as 1.9 or 1.15 or whatever. Why is that? Is that the numbers of runs or flight rating or something?It's the run number.

[vlaminck]

First of all, I rearranged and republished the spreadsheet here:

http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=pk46YBYGdLDUix5Z4A_ixHA


Plastics that are no longer around as well as discs that have been re-introduced, such as the classic roc, are confusing. I'm not sure how I should go about this list anymore. A couple ways to do it would be to list the disc lines in the plastic that
1) is closest to the original (for purchasing reasons).
2) is the original (for history knowledge).

I think the best thing to do would be to list original plastic, but then have a guide off to the side that says what current plastic is closest to the original. My biggest concern is the history of plastic might be more info than this spreadsheet can handle. Since I'm just starting this thing, I think now would be a good time to ask everyone: how would you like to see it organized, and what info would you like included/excluded? I'm open to any and all suggestions. I'm also willing to open the publication of it so anyone can edit it.

[JR Stengele]

Why did Innova get rid of CE Plastic when it seems that it flew the best? I still have 3 CE Valks, 1 CE T bird, 1 CE Firebird, and a special additon CE Aviar. They are all amazing and am sad that you can only find them at a high price these days. Any ideas besides maybe the cost?

[Three Putt]

Why did Innova get rid of CE Plastic when it seems that it flew the best? I still have 3 CE Valks, 1 CE T bird, 1 CE Firebird, and a special additon CE Aviar. They are all amazing and am sad that you can only find them at a high price these days. Any ideas besides maybe the cost?The reason given was the same reason given any time a plastic goes OOP...the supply of the raw materials went away, so they can't make it.

The rumor was that CE was incredibly hard to mold up and resulted in a crazy-high percentage of rejects (thus the high number of X-out CE discs out there.)

[Three Putt]

Why did Innova get rid of CE Plastic when it seems that it flew the best? I still have 3 CE Valks, 1 CE T bird, 1 CE Firebird, and a special additon CE Aviar. They are all amazing and am sad that you can only find them at a high price these days. Any ideas besides maybe the cost?BTW, the "CE discs are the best discs EVER" idea is directly opposed to the rational behind this thread, as no discs were originally released in CE. All of the CE discs like the Valk, Eagle, TeeBird, Leopard, Firebird, etc., came out originally in DX.

[RustyP]

Some disc golf conspiracy theorists think that the CE plastic was so durable that players didn't have to buy back-ups, thus causing Innova's sales to drop considerably, which is why they stopped producing it...

...then a reptilian overlord infiltrated the Innova board of directors and the rest is history :D

[adam423]

First of all, I rearranged and republished the spreadsheet here:

http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=pk46YBYGdLDUix5Z4A_ixHA


Plastics that are no longer around as well as discs that have been re-introduced, such as the classic roc, are confusing. I'm not sure how I should go about this list anymore. A couple ways to do it would be to list the disc lines in the plastic that
1) is closest to the original (for purchasing reasons).
2) is the original (for history knowledge).

I think the best thing to do would be to list original plastic, but then have a guide off to the side that says what current plastic is closest to the original. My biggest concern is the history of plastic might be more info than this spreadsheet can handle. Since I'm just starting this thing, I think now would be a good time to ask everyone: how would you like to see it organized, and what info would you like included/excluded? I'm open to any and all suggestions. I'm also willing to open the publication of it so anyone can edit it.

The shark is listed as a fairway driver on there... should be mid

[sidewinding]

Ever wonder what the Star Cheetah or Champion XD would feel like...you know? I would grab couple of Champion XD's the first thing it comes out. I wouldn't mind to buy a nice one or two CFR Star Cheetah if there's one someday...

I love the low profile nature of the xd putter but champion plastic is too dense and slippery for a putter. If it does'nt bounce off the chains it slips off. Champion plastic is great for a disc that you are going to be throwing super fast through trees. For approaching and putting dx is best.

[RustyP]

Innova made Star XDs a few years ago as a fund-raiser disc. I haven't thrown one myself, but reviews I read said they were beefy and overstable...nothing like a normal XD.

[vlaminck]

Thank you Adam423. The Shark is now in the correct location.

[YonderScott]

I know this thread has been dead awhile, but just wanted to add that there is some great info in here that helped me identify a disc I recently aquired. A friend of a friend went swimming for some discs and found some older stuff. He traded me a TeeBird that was in CE plastic(for a one year old champ starfire-his idea-no name or number). When I turned it over it had TL 170 written on the bottom. Now I know what I have....and my goodness that is some tough plastic.

I'm newer to the sport and obviously don't know the history of discs of the past, so thanks to the vets that do. And wow....there are Rocs worth a $1000 out there?

[ECUDiscgolf]

what in the world would make a Roc worth 1,000 bucks???

[Texconsinite]

If it was made of solid gold perhaps?

[YonderScott]

there is another thread on the roc, but I will post this link here....got it from Olorin.

http://www.ceroccollector.com/

Look at the estimated value on a couple of the 2001 champ rocs. There is a good link to Zone Driven's site with a story about a 2001 champ roc where only 40 were made....and they know where all are except 2. One was lost in Monroe, NC another in a lake in Texas....the rest are in people's hands. I never knew.

[bjreagh]

Thanks YonderScott,

I would have never read this thread, but you brought it to the front.

Everyone should check out the "Wayback Machine" links for a look at how discs have changed over the years!!

http://web.archive.org/web/*/http://www.innovadiscs.com/

[solomon.trenton]

who the hell would pay 1400 for a roc? my god, thats my mortage, electric and cable for the month.

[80playedin10states]

our govt pays 1400 for a toilet

[ChaseTheAce]

they used to make the TL in Pro and it said Teerbird L

[tbird888]

I figured it might to nice to resurrect this thread over starting a new one (there's some good stuff in here).

I was wondering if there are any TeeBird/Eagle fans still out there that know when the 11X Champs went from being stamped as Distance Drivers to being Fairway Drivers? I remember my oldest one, that I lost this spring, was stamped Distance Driver and have only found a couple 11X Fairway Drivers to replace it. I found a Distance Driver-stamped beauty (same stamped 11X Eagle-X also) in great shape in the used bin this weekend and was wondering how old it is.

[Meulen]

I was wondering if there are any TeeBird/Eagle fans still out there that know when the 11X Champs went from being stamped as Distance Drivers to being Fairway Drivers? I remember my oldest one, that I lost this spring, was stamped Distance Driver and have only found a couple 11X Fairway Drivers to replace it. I found a Distance Driver-stamped beauty (same stamped 11X Eagle-X also) in great shape in the used bin this weekend and was wondering how old it is.

I can't really answer your question specifically, but I have a 10x Eagle that is stamped as an Ultra-Long Straight Driver.

[tbird888]

That's too funny. The oldest disc I have is a DX Leopard that is stamped as an Ultra Long Turning Driver. I've never seen another one stamped like it. I'd post a pic, but the stamp has almost worn away entirely.

[JR Stengele]

Leopard as an Ultra Long Driver, good one!

[mashnut]

That's too funny. The oldest disc I have is a DX Leopard that is stamped as an Ultra Long Turning Driver. I've never seen another one stamped like it. I'd post a pic, but the stamp has almost worn away entirely.

I had a cheetah that was stamped as an ultra long range driver, it's amazing how much the technology has changed even in the relatively short time I've been playing.

[Innovadude]

More... I know most about Innova Discs...

- Monarch started out in Champion Plastic
- An obvious one... The Pig started out in Pro Plastic
- The Max is only made in Star Plastic.
- The X-Caliber original mold was in Star
- The Cheetah started out in DX and is only made in DX.
- I've been throwing the Viper for years and can tell you that it started out in DX.
- The Shark started out in DX
- Stingray has been around a long time and started out in DX.
- You can only throw The Wolf in DX.

Cheetah was made in S.E. plastic. I've got some brand new for sale they feel great.

[biscoe]

i have some champion max(es) as well-they were tourney fundraisers. i'v got a couple for sale still.

cheetah was made in both s.e. and kc pro (very similar).

[Scoot_er]

Leopard as an Ultra Long Driver, good one!

Teebird was the bomber disc in 2000 before the Valk and before the Teebird it was the Leopard and Eagle.

In truth for a truly understable disc the Leopard is actually farther than most I can think of........My longest is an XL as I don't feel faster discs are good for anhyzers.

Anyway back to the point of the thread how about throwing the plastic in which the disc performs the best rather than the plastic it was designed for? I mean it happens a lot when a disc is made in new plastic it actually outperforms the mold in the previous blend.

[nitegolfer]

I wouldn't worry about what original plastic a disc came out in unless it is for historical purposes. I have a first run DX Teebird, DX Eagle and the Pro and Champ versions are much better. Also, when looking for a skipper (skip shot disc) hard to beat the additional skip that Candy plastic provides. And, using discs only in the orginal plastic is assuming that the DG manufacturers knew what they were doing!! But, hey, if it works for you then go with it...that's the name of the game.

[Vegan Ray]

TL was originally CE, I believe. Not that it makes a hill of beans of difference.

[sonny]

I have a first run DX Teebird, DX Eagle and the Pro and Champ versions are much better.

I disagree. Champion Eagles and Teebirds are sweet discs, but in my experience, both discs perform better in DX plastic. Glide is much better in DX and I find it's easier to shape lines using DX discs.

It's true DX is not as durable, but they are cheap enough that buying a new one once or twice a year is no big deal.

Full disclosure: The Eagle in my bag is Star plastic - but when I carry a Teebird, it's DX (mostly).

[biscoe]

TL was originally CE, I believe. Not that it makes a hill of beans of difference.

first showed up as the "special edition" tbird in pro plastic i believe. again doesn't amount to a hill of beans.

[biscoe]

I disagree. Champion Eagles and Teebirds are sweet discs, but in my experience, both discs perform better in DX plastic. Glide is much better in DX and I find it's easier to shape lines using DX discs.

It's true DX is not as durable, but they are cheap enough that buying a new one once or twice a year is no big deal.

Full disclosure: The Eagle in my bag is Star plastic - but when I carry a Teebird, it's DX (mostly).

9 and 10 time kc pro eagles were the shiznit- better than dx, champion, or star.

[norcaldisc]

This is why I only throw hammers...historical bump

[Oklahyzer]

The thread that would not die! Good info in here, and a subject that didn't really finally hit home with me until about a year ago. I was one of those irritated/confused people several years ago when Innova went crazy with all the different additions and changes to molds and plastic...wish I would have understood it better then because it would have saved me some money and a little frustration. Depends on the mold, but I do believe that they often fly best (truest to ratings, anyway) in the plastic they were designed for. If you look at it this way, and in the absence of updates/expansions to the flight ratings based on plastic, it can be a useful tool for choosing a new disc to get what you're looking for, even with cooling inconsistencies, etc.

Good quotes:


Here is an example for you. The Discraft Cyclone. It was originally introduced in Tournament plastic, which is no longer available. It is a lower grade plastic, kind of between D and X. It shrunk a lot during cooling, so the Cyclone came out as a fast small diameter driver. In '93 it was as fast as anything on the market. In Innova-speak, it is very comparable with a Gazelle.

Being a popular mold, when the high density plastics came out Discraft ran the Cyclone in Z plastic. Z plastic is much denser and does not shrink like the Tournament plastic did. So in tournament plastic the diameter of the Cyclone is 21.3 cm. In Z plastic the diameter is around 21.6 cm. Plus the density of the plastic makes the disc behave more overstable. As a result, the Z Cyclone in Innova-speak is very comparable to a Viper.

So just by switching the plastic, you can dramatically alter what kind of disc you are producing. Unfortunately, the manufacturers use the same description for the discs in every sort of plastic, so you can end up buying a disc like a Z Cyclone and wonder what you are doing wrong since it behaves nothing like the description. It's part of the trial and error of choosing your disc.

As was mentioned, Innova tried to address this with the X and L molds, but in the process have confused a bunch of people by selling more than one disc under one name. Anybody who has thrown a Champ Starfire and a Pro Starfire can tell you how bad that can get. But I'm not sure there is a good answer. Innova sells something like 55 discs in four plastic lines, something like 112 different discs + CFR discs and OOP disc like the Pro TeeBird L that are still around...and that is just one manufacturer. With the number of disc we are talking about on the market today it is going to be confusing, no matter what the manufacturers do.


The fact that there are SO MANY variations between runs and plastic is just one of the many reasons why developing general skills is MUCH more important than learning to control a particular disc.