Off Axis Torque

[ERicJ]

When it comes to proper technique there's often mention of "off axis torque", typically in a negative connotation.

What is the effect of off axis torque on a disc's flight?

What characteristics lead a player to impart off axis torque? And thus what can be done to minimize them?

ERic

[garublador]

Torque is a roational force about an axis. In the case of disc golf, off axis torque is a roational force about an axis that doesn't go through the center of the disc in a direction perpendicular to the flight plate at the time of release.

OAT can cause the disc to act either more or less overstable than the disc would if the throw was clean. Most of the OAT you hear talked about in a negative manor stems from people trying to throw discs that are faster than the thrower can control. To get the discs to fly straight and far the thrower will learn to add OAT to get the disc to act more understable. If they were to throw a slower disc like that it would most likely flip and turn into a cut roller. The result you get are players who can only either throw really fast discs sorta far (350' max) but with little control and they are unable to get slower fairway drivers, mids and putters to do anything but flip.

The two biggest motions that contribute to OAT are wrist roll (either under or over) and lack of plane preservation with your arm and shoulders on your follow through. Rolling your wrist over (your palm is facing the sky immediately after the hit) and following through on a lower angle than the discs' angle at the hit cause discs to act more understable. The opposite cause discs to act more overstable. The former is a much more common problem.

OAT, when intentional, can also be used to control a discs's flight and shape lines. Say you want to have the disc flip from hyzer to flat, glide a bit, turn over, glide farther and then fade. You can throw a disc like a beat DX Eagle-X on a hyzer, but finish on an angle less than the hyzer angle. Controlling how much of a difference there is between the angles will allow you to control when the Eagle goes from straight to tracking right. Depending on how beat the Eagle is, the disc will either continue tracking right, fade back to straight and glide a bit, or fade back left. Once you get good at these types of shots (sometimes called roll curves), the negative effect of choosing the wrong beatness of fairway driver will have a small impact (perhaps 10') rather than a large one (30'-40' off for choosing the wrong mold).

Roll under can be used effectively too. Say you have a shot that's kind of short for a midrange, but there's a stiff left turn at the end. You can throw your mid with less hyzer than normal and roll under (or follow through on a higher angle) and the disc will either hold a hyzer the whole time or fade out earlier/harder than it would on a normal shot.

One of the easist ways to get roll under out of your throw is to practice throwing your most understable plastic on pure hyzers. Start off short and lengthen how far you throw, avoiding letting the discs flip up from a hyzer at all. Eventually you'll get the feel for how to control the wrist roll. Your slower discs will fly farther and be much easier to control and the speed you gain (or stop losing from OAT) might make the best longer range disc for you more obvious. You'll start seeing lines you never knew existed, using discs for shots you never imagined would work (I threw a flippy Gazelle ~350' into a headwind a couple weeks ago) and you'll amaze people because it starts looking like your discs are remote controlled.

[discflinger]

Good stuff. Thanks a lot. I would've gotten carpal tunnel from all that typing. Very informative.

[Riley]

A lot of times when I drive with my Rocs they come out of my hand, quickly go to the right and end up about 90 feet away when I wanted a good 230' and fall to the leftout of it.Other times I can throw them 250' and have them fall to the left like I want. Is the sloppy throw that I described OAT?

[garublador]

Is the sloppy throw that I described OAT?I can't say for sure without seeing your throw, but there's a very good chance that off-axis torque is what's causing it.

[Riley]

Thanks. I think we had talked about this before when I was looking for an overstable mid-range disc for drives. You thought was that I was Just throwing the disc wrong, perhaps OAT. I do agree and I will try to focus more on my wrists when throwing. I will keep you posted.

[garublador]

Focus on getting it so your palm is neutral to facing downward right after the hit. Also focus on preserving the angle your shoulders are on and matching that angle to the anlge you're throwing on. A 10 degree hyzer should start with your right shoulder 10 degrees below your left shoulder on the reach back (assuming RHBH) and end with your right shoulder 10 degrees above your left shoulder on the follow through.

[YoDesigner]

What about a disc that 'flutters' after release? I notice when my friend throws hard the disc kind of vibrates rapidly for about 50' before it smooths out. Is that OAT? Throughout this past year his drives have been getting better without the flutter, but I am not sure what is causing it. Every once in a while I notice he still has a little flutter after the release and that usually results in a shorter drive...

[garublador]

What about a disc that 'flutters' after release? I notice when my friend throws hard the disc kind of vibrates rapidly for about 50' before it smooths out. Is that OAT? Throughout this past year his drives have been getting better without the flutter, but I am not sure what is causing it. Every once in a while I notice he still has a little flutter after the release and that usually results in a shorter drive...It's almost definitely OAT, especally if it's anything faster than a putter.

[Jungle Tim]

I hate to admit it but i have a mild case of OAT.:(

What are the best exercises to get me back to throwing without OAT.

What are the best discs to reveal technique?

All help MUCH appreciated!

(to save a little wonga if you could suggest from my collection below)


i have.
2x 1080putters
2x banger GT soft/esp
1x Whittler

2xBuzz FLX
1x Comet ESP
1x champ stingray
1x old very flippy roc

2x champ teebird
2x surge z /esp
1x preadator esp
1x champ sidewinder
1x destroyer
1x boss
1x old teerex flippy.

[garublador]

I hate to admit it but i have a mild case of OAT.:(

What are the best exercises to get me back to throwing without OAT.

What are the best discs to reveal technique?
If it's only a mild case then you're doing a lot better than most people.

As for how to help elimiate roll-over:

One of the easist ways to get roll under out of your throw is to practice throwing your most understable plastic on pure hyzers. Start off short and lengthen how far you throw, avoiding letting the discs flip up from a hyzer at all. Eventually you'll get the feel for how to control the wrist roll. Your slower discs will fly farther and be much easier to control and the speed you gain (or stop losing from OAT) might make the best longer range disc for you more obvious. You'll start seeing lines you never knew existed, using discs for shots you never imagined would work (I threw a flippy Gazelle ~350' into a headwind a couple weeks ago) and you'll amaze people because it starts looking like your discs are remote controlled.

So the slowest and flippiest of the discs you have will be the best to use.

[Ryan P.]

I think I understand what OAT is on the wrists, but is there another part of your body that you can "commit" OAT with? I was thinking your back, say if you start bent over and end leaning back? I'm not sure, i'm just wondering if the wrists are the only way to do it.

[garublador]

I think I understand what OAT is on the wrists, but is there another part of your body that you can "commit" OAT with? I was thinking your back, say if you start bent over and end leaning back? I'm not sure, i'm just wondering if the wrists are the only way to do it.Shoulder plane preservation is the other biggie.

Check out this image:

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3014/2574399335_24d2ff72a6.jpg?v=0

You can see that Avery's shoulders are on a hyzer plane and that he threw a hyzer. That's a clean throw. If his shoulders would have been parallel to the ground that would give you the same OAT as wrist roll over. If his shoulders were on a steeper hyzer plane that would give you the same OAT as wrist roll under. Controlling this is an excellent way to shape lines with "workable" drivers. It's easy to control just how much OAT you impart.

Incorrect grip can also contribute to OAT, but I find that it's easy to correct. Just follow this:

http://www.discgolfreview.com/resources/articles/gripittoripit.shtml

and you'll be good. Because it's a static element (your grip doesn't change throughout the throw) it's an easy thing to fix and get right.

[Jungle Tim]

Sholder plane preservation is what i really struggle with, naturally my follow through comes round and down. It doesnt seem to happen when i intentionally throw hyzers, but if i try to play a straight flat full power mid / putter*, I can guarantee it will unintentionally roll/pitch a little right. Main culprits are the Banger ESP and FLX Buzz they SHOULD be straight as an arrow.

Im sure im being thick but im not sure what you mean about the wrist roll exercise, are you mean to learn to push the discs flight plate down or up on the moment of release? Any videos on this?

[garublador]

Sholder plane preservation is what i really struggle with, naturally my follow through comes round and down. It doesnt seem to happen when i intentionally throw hyzers, but if i try to play a straight flat full power mid / putter*, I can guarantee it will unintentionally roll/pitch a little right. Main culprits are the Banger ESP and FLX Buzz they SHOULD be straight as an arrow.I struggle with the exact same thing.

Im sure im being thick but im not sure what you mean about the wrist roll exercise, are you mean to learn to push the discs flight plate down or up on the moment of release? Any videos on this?The exercise is to throw hyzers with flippy plastic. Any sort of wrist roll over (thumb rotating twards the sky at release) will make this impossible. Wrist roll under (thumb rotating twards the ground at release) will make this easier. The idea is to get the feel of what it's like to throw without rolling over.

[33tango]

What about a disc that 'flutters' after release? I notice when my friend throws hard the disc kind of vibrates rapidly for about 50' before it smooths out. Is that OAT? Throughout this past year his drives have been getting better without the flutter, but I am not sure what is causing it. Every once in a while I notice he still has a little flutter after the release and that usually results in a shorter drive...

It's almost definitely OAT, especally if it's anything faster than a putter.

I struggle with the exact same flutter thing when throwing forearm if I use my arm too much. I found that by slowing down my arm speed and trying to get all my distance out of the snap that I can eliminate the flutter but my distance suffers.

[garublador]

I struggle with the exact same flutter thing when throwing forearm if I use my arm too much. I found that by slowing down my arm speed and trying to get all my distance out of the snap that I can eliminate the flutter but my distance suffers.The only potential help I can give with forehand is to make sure your palm is perpendicular to the disc rather than parallel to it. If your hand is facing the sky then from what I understand you can't help but have OAT. I'm far from a forehand expert, though.

[lewisville150]

This is excellent information and explains those odd "what the hell was that?" throws I make from time to time. I think we can all say we have experienced this phenomenon. I have noticed some of the items you mentioned like shoulder plane preservation. I just did not put it all together into a cohesive package.

Thanks

[_.-Dut-._]

One of the easist ways to get roll under out of your throw is to practice throwing your most understable plastic on pure hyzers. Start off short and lengthen how far you throw, avoiding letting the discs flip up from a hyzer at all. Eventually you'll get the feel for how to control the wrist roll. Your slower discs will fly farther and be much easier to control and the speed you gain (or stop losing from OAT) might make the best longer range disc for you more obvious. You'll start seeing lines you never knew existed, using discs for shots you never imagined would work (I threw a flippy Gazelle ~350' into a headwind a couple weeks ago) and you'll amaze people because it starts looking like your discs are remote controlled.

Amazing how the most obvious advice you never think of doing.


This makes perfect sense at a way to eliminate turnover yet Ive never thought to try it, thanks for the post.

[Lewis]

Amazing how the most obvious advice you never think of doing.

This makes perfect sense at a way to eliminate turnover yet Ive never thought to try it, thanks for the post.

And it sounds difficult, which is probably a sign I should practice it. :)

[TalbotTrojan]

Great something serious for me to think about. I am sure that I have OAT on my forehand and see none on my backhand. I would love to get rid of the OAT on the forehand simply for the standpoint of having a bit more control. I do tend to notice that when I try harder the more that I get. Just a thought.

[craigg]

To help w/OAT on the forehand, work on keeping you elbow in closer to your hip.
Also - pay attention to what the thumb on your throwing hand is doing. If you roll your thumb over on a forehand shot, then that's what the disc will do - so in the case of a forehand, you want to finish the throw with your palm skyward. If you have trouble achieving this - try reaching back further and force yourself to watch the disc stay flat as you pull through the snap.

[33tango]

I think I understand what OAT is on the wrists, but is there another part of your body that you can "commit" OAT with? I was thinking your back, say if you start bent over and end leaning back? I'm not sure, i'm just wondering if the wrists are the only way to do it.

Something here that hasn't been discussed is the path the disc takes from your "reach back" position to your release position. I find if I bring the disc across close to my chest it's harder to get my wrist roll to make a disc break over and turn right. If instead I pull through with the disc 12-18 inches out from my chest it's much easier to then turn my wrist palm up during the release and get the disc to break over and turn right.

Does anyone else use this method, or just me?

[bazkitcase5]

well I think thats the issue - unless you are good enough to throw with OAT when you need to and without it when you do not need to, its best to never roll your wrist, as that is the primary cause of OAT

there are exceptions to every rule, but most players need to use an understable discs and get it to flip over, rather than rolling your wrist to make the disc turn right (at least until you get good enough to control different release points and knowing when you should do them)

[garublador]

well I think thats the issue - unless you are good enough to throw with OAT when you need to and without it when you do not need to, its best to never roll your wrist, as that is the primary cause of OATIMO, controlling OAT is extremely important. It's the only way to reliably shape lines. It's something everyone should learn and it isn't really that difficult once you become aware of it.

33tango, that sounds like it should work alright for some lines. The only issue I'd see is that you're probably sacrificing power and the potential for wrist extension (which gives power and nose down). As long as you're doing it on purpose and can throw without doing it I don't see a big issue. Most people who throw like that do it because they don't know better.

[bazkitcase5]

you pretty much just said what I was thinking - just much better

[33tango]

IMO, controlling OAT is extremely important. It's the only way to reliably shape lines. It's something everyone should learn and it isn't really that difficult once you become aware of it.

33tango, that sounds like it should work alright for some lines. The only issue I'd see is that you're probably sacrificing power and the potential for wrist extension (which gives power and nose down). As long as you're doing it on purpose and can throw without doing it I don't see a big issue. Most people who throw like that do it because they don't know better.

I can control it fairly well about 80% of the time, I'm working to up that. I am definitely sacrificing some power. Thanks for the tips.

[Olorin]

I wonder if it would be helpful to use some terminology from aeronautics here?

To understand the orientation of the axes on a disc golf shot think of airplane. See this page on Flight Dynamics (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flight_dynamics). On an airplane the axis from the nose through the tail is the X axis, the axis through the wings is the Y axis, and the vertical up and down axis is the Z axis. Now imagine a flat thrown disc. The axis through the nose of the disc and the tail is the X axis, the axis through the left and right sides is the Y axis, and the vertical up an down axis through the center is the Z axis. A flat disc spins about the Z axis on the XY plane.

Also, there are 3 aerodynamic parameters: Roll, Pitch, and Yaw.
Roll = Left or right side higher. Around the X axis
Pitch = nose up, nose down. Around the Y axis
Yaw = the spin on a disc. Around the Z axis

Since OAT occurs when the left or right side of the disc is tilted this is known as roll in aerodynamics. I don't know if this helps anyone else or not, but with OAT I've had trouble visualizing which "axis" was being referred to and where the "torque" was being applied. It's easier for me to visualize roll.

Am I right in thinking that the problematic OAT typically referred to is roll such that the left side of the disc is higher than the right?

I think that the energy lost in OAT is also caused by precession of the Z axis due to the tilted XY plane.

[sidewinding]

Pseudovectors are almost impossible to visualize.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pseudovector

Have you ever taken an empty glass and spun it on a table? If you do it at just the right speed it will spin like a top but it's axis will be moving all over the place due to the resistance of the table. Put the same glass on a lazy susan and spin it and it's axis will be stable due to no resistance. When you throw a disc, your hand is the table and the air is the lazy susan. You want to transfer the disc from your hand to the air without your hand causing any resistance that will knock the disc off it's axis.

[Lewis]

Gak! Vectors!

You're taking me back to Multivariable Calculus in college, which I really didn't like. But the airplane analogy helps clarify things. So this means that flutter is not a kind of OAT.

[Dr3wska]

i actually dont do this very often back hand but more forehand it happens about 50% of the time. I never knew what this was called till now but i need to work on it i dont know how it never became a serious problem with my back hand. But people have been saying that myabe i have to much arm speed. I dont know y i m postin this i just wanted to feel like part of the crowd.

[jtencer]

Gak! Vectors!

You're taking me back to Multivariable Calculus in college, which I really didn't like. But the airplane analogy helps clarify things. So this means that flutter is not a kind of OAT.

The flutter comes from not having a "clean release." It smooths out during flight because of the gyroscopic effects of the disc.

[mashnut]

Gak! Vectors!

You're taking me back to Multivariable Calculus in college, which I really didn't like. But the airplane analogy helps clarify things. So this means that flutter is not a kind of OAT.

Not as I understand it. That flutter can be a sign of OAT, and is caused by force on the disc that doesn't go into spinning the disc on it's axis that causes the axis to wobble and the disc to flutter.

[slowRoll]

@garublador

This is the most useful thread I have found here so far. I was aware that I had a flaw in my throw and windy conditions really expose this in my game. When it is calm outside i can get away with throwing more stable discs, forcing them over, then watching them all come back. but that same mentality in wind leads to OB's, force overs that never come back and alot of frustration on my part. As someone who can throw a boss 400' on a calm day, i feel as if I've hit a wall and I'm going to have to make a change to break through it. I hope I'm up to the challenge. After 3 years of throwing incorrectly, it won't be easy to change.

[Paulie]

OAT, this is what it is. Search feature, that is what I used. That little check box that lets you reply to old posts, that is what I checked.
:)

[BrotherDave]

Paulie wins 5000 internetz. :hfive:

We've got lots of threads on OAT and some crucial ways to get rid of it in the Technique & Strategy sticky in case this thread didn't satisfy you.

[The dude on the bike]

I oat eatmeal for breakfast.

[Turner512]

I found that throwing my roc made my OAT most apparent. I took a break from drivers the past couple of months. I haven't thrown a driver since June and it is September. I have gotten my roc on a more consistent path and have increased distance and control in all my throws. I found that my issue was with shoulder plane. I am constantly torquing my body for a hyzer but sending the disc on an anhyzer plane. I don't think I understand the wrist roll over concept. I wish someone would post a series of photos or a very informative video. But occasionally I find myself sending a roc on a flippy line that ends up rolling far right. I'm wondering if anyone thinks this (my break from drivers) was a good idea and if they think I should work on anything else to help rid me from accidental OAT once and for all.

[crazypep]

What an excellent detailed description of OAT...Kudos Garublador!

IMO, controlling OAT is extremely important. It's the only way to reliably shape lines. It's something everyone should learn and it isn't really that difficult once you become aware of it.

I agree but, ONLY after one learns to throw on a flat plane with good technique and clean releases FIRST! Then try experimenting around. If you can't throw your putter or a stable mid-range flat and straight, then THIS IS NOT FOR YOU! I see too many people throwing their Nukes-Destroyers-Halos-Kings-Katanas-Bosses and Monsters for big D and can't throw it in the same place twice. When those same people go to throw their "300' slightly overstable midrange" disc, it goes 140' and crashes on an extreme anhyser.

[BrotherDave]

I found that throwing my roc made my OAT most apparent. I took a break from drivers the past couple of months. I haven't thrown a driver since June and it is September. I have gotten my roc on a more consistent path and have increased distance and control in all my throws. I found that my issue was with shoulder plane. I am constantly torquing my body for a hyzer but sending the disc on an anhyzer plane. I don't think I understand the wrist roll over concept. I wish someone would post a series of photos or a very informative video. But occasionally I find myself sending a roc on a flippy line that ends up rolling far right. I'm wondering if anyone thinks this (my break from drivers) was a good idea and if they think I should work on anything else to help rid me from accidental OAT once and for all.

Abandoning drivers completely can hurt you b/c mids and putters aren't as nose angle sensitive. Throwing nose down is vital and drivers punish you best for not doing that.

Roll over/under is pretty simple to visualize. Imagine a perfectly flat throw on flat ground where your arm is more or less at 90° with your body for the whole throw. Now, on a perfectly flat throw you want your wrist to be parallel with the ground from the right pec to the follow through. If your wrist turns palm up, facing the sky during the throw and especially the follow through, you rolled your wrist over. If your wrist turns palm down, palm facing the ground during the throw then you rolled your wrist under.

[crazypep]

Great BroDave!
@ Turner Another example - Imagine balancing a quarter on a pin. If you want it to spin flat you must flick your finger on the same plane as the quarter. If you try a flick it to spin it but you raise or lower your finger some the quarter begins to "wobble". This is because the pin is no longer centered in the middle of the coin, thus causing erratic behavior.
When you go to throw your "super stable speed 4 midrange" disc, and you have you shoulders aligned perfectly perpendicular to the ground and you extend your arm flat across your chest then you throw and it goes right or left...you re-created the above scenario, you "rolled your wrist".
Try one of the wrist braces that bowlers use and try and turnover a disc! :)
Hope that helps!

[Turner512]

Crazypep! Best example I've heard on off axis torque! Guys thanks for the insight. I'm sure I will be posting soon after more field practice.