Crush and Run tee pad

[33tango]

Anyone have any experience on the typical wear you see on a tee pad made of crush and run only? My club is looking to do some more tees and improving some of the ones we have that aren't rubber already and someone floated the idea of crush and run only.

[Dillon_Gourley]

If crush and run means crushed gravel or rocks it's horrible! We have a few holes that are like that on a few of our holes that we didn't want to concrete because the city could take them if needed and I would prefer natrual over crushed rock.

[33tango]

If crush and run means crushed gravel or rocks it's horrible! We have a few holes that are like that on a few of our holes that we didn't want to concrete because the city could take them if needed and I would prefer natrual over crushed rock.

We can't do concrete properly in our park as there is a nearby historical area they are concerned if we dig we'll interfere with an archeological find. I think down this way crush and run is more limestone than gravel? I don't know.

[Lewis]

Crush and run in Georgia is likely to have a lot of granite in it, at least if it comes from North of the Fall Line, but I'm just guessing. I'd worry that you wouldn't get it compact enough, and it would just wash away with the rain. What measures are you planning to take to keep it contained?

[Roc1Time]

That stuff sucks

[Terry C]

I hate rubber tees the most but anything other than concrete still sucks. I would prefer the bare ground to rubber or pebbles or some other janky tee surface.

[harr0140]

We can't do concrete properly in our park as there is a nearby historical area they are concerned if we dig we'll interfere with an archeological find. I think down this way crush and run is more limestone than gravel? I don't know.

Tell them you don't have to dig, just lay 4-6 inches of gravel on the surface pour the concrete and bring in soil and slope it down around the tee, but good god please do not put gravel down, they just never hold up unless you can send someone out with a rake and a plate compactor every week!

[biscoe]

crush and run works well if you box it in to contain it and pack it well. it will require some maintenance periodically but not that much if put in properly to begin with. i prefer it to concrete or rubber.

[33tango]

Tell them you don't have to dig, just lay 4-6 inches of gravel on the surface pour the concrete and bring in soil and slope it down around the tee, but good god please do not put gravel down, they just never hold up unless you can send someone out with a rake and a plate compactor every week!

We've been told no concrete for years by the parks department, it's really just not an option. There are some scabs you stop picking at and let heal.

I'm not backing the crush and run idea just trying to get a realistic idea of maintenance issues from people who have experience with it so I can present an honest appraisal of it to the board.

Crush and run in Georgia is likely to have a lot of granite in it, at least if it comes from North of the Fall Line, but I'm just guessing. I'd worry that you wouldn't get it compact enough, and it would just wash away with the rain. What measures are you planning to take to keep it contained?

We'd be framing it in with 1by on four sides. My concern is it can become a trip hazard if it's not flush and a place for water to pool if it is.

[Mushin No Shin]

How bad are the ruts from the "natural tees"?
I've seen boxes filled with gravel or decomposed granite becoming rutted just the same as natural tees.
Is there a real commitment to maintenance?
Unfortunately, these tees (stoned ruts) often become a negative to the course.

[harr0140]

You will want 4 inches of crushed stone for sure, so frame it with a 2x4 if you have to use stone. You will want to pack it with a plate compactor inside of the frame. You will probably have to do weekly or monthly levelling and repacking to take care of the area after use. The twisting and planting of the feet is what causes thje problems, and erosion from rain willa lso help to move some of the stone off the pads. I would recommend keeping extra stone around at all times, but you will want to keep it covered and protected so it doesnt compact itself.

Like I have said before the maintenance of the stone tees is not worth it in my opinion. I would rather have grass tees as long as they don't wear out too much. How much play is there on this course.

[Roc1Time]

Agreed just leave it natural pads

[Terry C]

Rubber pads suck bad for so many reasons, we tee off next to them instead. Bare ground is second best to concrete. I look at it like this, if I had a car without wheels, I would let it sit there until I could afford proper wheels before I cut round chunks of wood and tried to make it work. Janky = Stanky

[Lewis]

Random thought: if your course sees heavy enough traffic on its natural pads, you'll get natural ruts that you can box in without digging, and then fill the boxes with concrete as "erosion control." ;)

[harr0140]

Random thought: if your course sees heavy enough traffic on its natural pads, you'll get natural ruts that you can box in without digging, and then fill the boxes with concrete as "erosion control." ;)

Thats the kind of outside the box (or inside the teebox) that will take you places!

[cydisc]

I think you mean "crusher run".

[tstack10]

agreed on the natural ruts that will form and that will need to be adressed eventuallly with enougj play. grooved concrete always the best.

[wolito]

Bare ground would probably be best, if it is taken care of. Crush/run needs to be tighly compacted or it will wear quickly and dissapear.

[33tango]

Rubber pads suck bad for so many reasons, we tee off next to them instead.

This is kinda off topic, but could you give me a couple of those many reasons? Our course is 2/3 rubber pad(and some carpet) and everyone I ask has nothing but praise for them over our dirt pads.

[33tango]

I think you mean "crusher run".

Wikipedia agrees with you, thanks for the correction. And it is limestone, not gravel...

"A special type of limestone crushed stone is dense grade aggregate, or DGA, also known as crusher run. This is a mixed grade of mostly small crushed stone in a matrix of crushed limestone powder."

[mashnut]

This is kinda off topic, but could you give me a couple of those many reasons? Our course is 2/3 rubber pad(and some carpet) and everyone I ask has nothing but praise for them over our dirt pads.

I don't mind rubber tees, but they definitely have some issues. If you aren't careful, the ground tends to settle under them with use, and you end up with lumpy and tilted pads. They are quite slippery with any water or sand or dead leaves on them, worse than pretty much any other tee surface. That said, on dry non-sandy courses, I think they're perfectly fine, and are especially nice as beginning pads that you can move around while finalizing a course layout.

[33tango]

We put down a couple inches of crusher run under our rubber pads, compacted with a motorized tamper thingy(forget the name) and ours aren't lumpy. I drive from them with sand on them and I have never slipped. Maybe it's the brand/finish of the rubber pads? Or shoes? I wear a nice pair of Merrils but if you had shoes with bad traction on slippery pads I could see that as a real hazard.

Thin pads are going to suffer more from poor installation, I can see that as a problem.

[tallpaul]

Rubber pads are much better than gravel/crusher run. They do need some prep work beneath them to stabilize and level the ground beneath. Crusher run can be used for this. As noted, they then have the advantage of move-ability. Almost all tees (even many concrete) have some issue when wet. Check into what brands of rubber mats are the best in this regard; I can not tell you details in this area; but some of those on the market have very little trouble with wetness/slipperage. I can say that the crusher run/gravel tees ALWAYS become trouble, the same as natural/dirt tees. The worst part about the cursher/gravel tees is that the stone spreads and you end up with a long and wide terrible looking area at each tee, with the stone spreading everywhere, in a relatively short period of time....even with maintenance. And you will still end up with the ruts.

[Terry C]

This is kinda off topic, but could you give me a couple of those many reasons? Our course is 2/3 rubber pad(and some carpet) and everyone I ask has nothing but praise for them over our dirt pads.

33 Tango, The rubber pads ive seen were terriblely slippery when they were wet,dirty or for that matter even if they were completely clean. I just played a tournament about two weeks ago on a course with rubber tees and so many people were bitching about having to drive off from rubber tees the guys running the tourney said everyone would just tee off next to the rubber pads instead. About 90% of the guys there were very happy with that. I honestly dont see how anybody could prefer them to the ground, maybee we use different rubber tee pads here, or maybee the weather changes the rubber, but I doubt it.

[tallpaul]

I'm not advocating the use of rubber tees. But, I can say the crusher run never works. Concrete is really the only surface that will work. That said, some courses simply do not have this option. Natural tees go back to the roots of the sport. Unfortunately, the amount of disc play these days wears ruts into them very quickly. If you are then forced to move tees all the time, it's impossible to keep your signs up to date; creating a new trouble. Short of using concrete tees, there really is not answer to this question.

[Terry C]

I'm not advocating the use of rubber tees. But, I can say the crusher run never works. Concrete is really the only surface that will work. That said, some courses simply do not have this option. Natural tees go back to the roots of the sport. Unfortunately, the amount of disc play these days wears ruts into them very quickly. If you are then forced to move tees all the time, it's impossible to keep your signs up to date; creating a new trouble. Short of using concrete tees, there really is not answer to this question.

Yup.

[33tango]

33 Tango, The rubber pads ive seen were terriblely slippery when they were wet,dirty or for that matter even if they were completely clean. I just played a tournament about two weeks ago on a course with rubber tees and so many people were bitching about having to drive off from rubber tees the guys running the tourney said everyone would just tee off next to the rubber pads instead. About 90% of the guys there were very happy with that. I honestly dont see how anybody could prefer them to the ground, maybee we use different rubber tee pads here, or maybee the weather changes the rubber, but I doubt it.

What temp was it? Just curious. Thanks!

[Terry C]

What temp was it? Just curious. Thanks!

in the 40's, I think the michigan weather may be a reason why it dosent work very well here. To me driving off from rubber was like a hard wood floor with soapy water on it, not cool.

[optidiscic]

You really need to talk to someone from Patapsco in Maryland...they had crushed stone tees that were done properly and I swear they were better than concrete......I don't know how they did it but those tees were really impressive IMO.

[Jimb]

The Woodshed and Whippin' Post in Paw Paw, WV both have crusher run tees. The "fines" in the crusher run almost "glue" together the slightly larger pebbles after they get wet and then dry. This stuff is very fine. I think that the biggest pieces are less than 1/4" across. Most of it is 1/8" or less.

The tees at Paw Paw are very compacted and so they work really well. They're not so loose so that you can't get a decent run up and there's no problem with being able to rotate your leg during your follow through. Ruts do form where most people plant their feet.

I've noted some things that happen to the tees as the weather changes. When the ground is frozen, they're very hard. The top layer of material still gives you grip, though. When they thaw, or after hard or continuous rain, they can get "muddy" in the ruts. They seem to dry out much faster than "dirt mud" dries out. If it's been dry for a while, they get dusty. I've found that they're far less slippery than grass in the early morning dew.

I've had really good expreiences with rubber pads, too, at Shawnee State Park, whether wet, dry, hot or cold. I would agree that the biggest challenge with the rubber tees is the site preparation, and apparently cost.

So if it comes down to natural vs. crusher run, I would personally prefer crusher run. As long as there is regular maintenance, and there are ground level timbers to keep it in place, these should work well.

[biscoe]

You really need to talk to someone from Patapsco in Maryland...they had crushed stone tees that were done properly and I swear they were better than concrete......I don't know how they did it but those tees were really impressive IMO.

framed, filled, and tamped... and i agree with you.

[sidewinder22]

I love the new tees at Patapsco! They are by far my favorite. PM Cooker on here or the MD-discgolf board about the way to do crush and run, or Badger on MD-discgolf.

[ibgollie]

What about using some sort of roughed up step stone? I've seen this b4 where they weren't allow to use concrete and while it isn't the best, it is pretty functional, it can be moved and maintenance can be done by anyone pretty much. Also cheaper than the rubber pads, which to be installed properly need some sort of crushed rock base, which requires just about the same amount of digging as a concrete pad.

I prefer any stabilized surface compared to a rutted up natural tee pad any day. From my experience a gravel or compacted road base type material is just as bad as natural unless it is constantly maintained.

[tallpaul]

I have posted in this thread; and tended to go with the rubber tees, rather than pea gravel. I just returned from a six day, 26 course journey. The area we played; northeast Illinois....to Lemon Lake....to St. Louis....to west of St. Louis....to Centrailia....and finally back up the east cost of Illinois....was very wet: three weeks of fairly continuous rain. We played lots of rubber, and lots of pea gravel tees, along our journey. The rubber does well, if the ground is prepped well, and the mats are fastened down. Some varieties do well when wet, some not so well. The pea gravel tees in these areas were all done well: i.e. enclosed with wood, filled and tamped. They showed various signs of wear; but actually provided great footing, when wet, for the most part. My prior experiences had been more with pea gravel tees not done well. I have a few courses like this, locally. I have to say, that, when done well, the pea gravel tees are pretty nice. I do want to point out that this area deserves props for doing these tees well, in the first place, and maintaining them.

[harr0140]

I have posted in this thread; and tended to go with the rubber tees, rather than pea gravel. I just returned from a six day, 26 course journey. The area we played; northeast Illinois....to Lemon Lake....to St. Louis....to west of St. Louis....to Centrailia....and finally back up the east cost of Illinois....was very wet: three weeks of fairly continuous rain. We played lots of rubber, and lots of pea gravel tees, along our journey. The rubber does well, if the ground is prepped well, and the mats are fastened down. Some varieties do well when wet, some not so well. The pea gravel tees in these areas were all done well: i.e. enclosed with wood, filled and tamped. They showed various signs of wear; but actually provided great footing, when wet, for the most part. My prior experiences had been more with pea gravel tees not done well. I have a few courses like this, locally. I have to say, that, when done well, the pea gravel tees are pretty nice. I do want to point out that this area deserves props for doing these tees well, in the first place, and maintaining them.

Just for clarification, Paul I think you mean crushed limestone or 1/4" T.B. (Traffic Bond) not pea gravel. It may look pea sized but pea gravel is round, will not compact and is generally only used for drainage and decorational landscaping. I played on a course I want to say it was Algoma (or maybe it was somewhere else on my travels . . . too many courses to remember) that had pea gravel and it was horrible no traction the gravel just moves around when you step.

[tallpaul]

Harr, you are correct. Crushed is good; pea gravel is not.

[superberry]

Algoma has pea gravel, Kewaunee has crusher dust (crushed limestone).