Are "pinball" holes fair?

[sidewinding]

I recently played a course that had multiple pinball holes. I played well except for a couple of meltdowns on holes where I just kept hitting small trees that had been intentionally left in what was supposed to be a fairway. I was playing with my brother who thought it was hilarious and now loves pinball holes because he knows they can potentially even the playing field.

Am I the only one who thinks these type of holes are unfair?

Does ball golf have pinball holes?

[ERicJ]

Unless the intent of the hole is to force a player to throw over the tree line with a reasonable landing zone on the other side, a hole should have a reasonable fairway through which to throw your disc.

Leave pinball to the arcades. Disc golf should be a game of skill much more than luck. That's my opinion.

ERic

[Adam Schneider]

No, ball golf doesn't have them, which is part of why disc golf is so much better. :)

I don't think a few extra trees are "unfair" at all. There's always a route somewhere, and it's up to you to find the best way through (or over, or around).

[ERicJ]

I recently played a course that had multiple pinball holes.Which course?

[Greg Layton]

I think it all depends on what part of the country you play in. Up here in Michigan you have to look far and wide to find courses that don't test your tree-maneuvering skills. As a result, courses with a wide open fairway almost seem too easy. It sounds like you don't have quite as many trees in Texas.

[Texconsinite]

Was it Live Oak PArk, in Corpus? THat place has pinball holes galore

[sidewinding]

Which course?

Paschall Park in Mesquite (http://www.dgcoursereview.com/course.php?id=2649). This newer course has some great holes but the few pinball holes really bring it down. Many of the trees have orange spray paint around them. Maybe it's such a new course they hav'nt had a chance to finish shaping the fairways.

[garublador]

It depends on how pinbally the holes really are.

For example the hole 6 picture that I saw for this course:
Paschall Park in Mesquite (http://www.dgcoursereview.com/course.php?id=2649).
Is not a hole I'd call a pinball hole. It's a fairly narrow fariway with an obvious route. If you look and all you see are trees with no open lines then it gets to where luck determines whether or not you make the shot, then it's not a good hole. I haven't seen many of those. Narrow fariways, on the other hand, are difficult but not necessarily unfair.

[buzzinb]

I really feel like it takes away from the fun factor when you have to thread the needle hole after hole. Fairways should be just that--a well defined opening that gives one a "fair" chance at navigating it. Some wooded holes offer little more than a narrow hiking trail which curves like a snake to the basket. If I want to test my luck, I'll play the lottery. Even when I make a "lucky" toss and my disc finds its way through the plinko, I don't get a whole lot of gratification from it because I know that its highly unlikely that I would be able to do it again. For those who posess the degree of god-like skill neccesary to routinely shred such holes, my hat is off to you. You have truly mastered the force!

[maniak]

Check out hole #4 at Shirley Macey Park in Gibsons, BC. Good luck getting it to the basket and if you do, good luck finding it in all the under brush. The fun factor of this course is diminished due to holes like this one.

http://www.dgcoursereview.com/course.php?id=2106&mode=ci

[WillA]

I hate pinball holes. The Lake Cumberland course is great except for three of these holes. There is no fairway, no route to the basket. All you can do is throw a tomahawk and hope. I wish I had a photo for people who have never played a course with this kind of hole.

[buzzinb]

Check out hole #4 at Shirley Macey Park in Gibsons, BC. Good luck getting it to the basket and if you do, good luck finding it in all the under brush. The fun factor of this course is diminished due to holes like this one.

http://www.dgcoursereview.com/course.php?id=2106&mode=ci

Yeah...And make sure to use only dark green discs fot that extra little bit of masochistic pleasure!

Holy crap! And I thought Hobson was tough....

[taxman]

even on a "pinball" hole there is always a path. sometimes that path may seem impossible. they are definitely frustrating, but in the end you will be a much better thrower.

there is a course near me that has a few pinball holes where the "fairway" is maybe 5' wide at best. if you miss that window you are going to pinball. playing that hole has helped me with my lines quite a bit. another hole on a different course has a line of trees that you have to go over around or through. if you go over you end up fading to far off to the side. if you go around the trees it's not possible to get less than par. but because i have extensive experience with hole #9 at avalanche park in boyne city i feel confident that i can pick which trees i sneak between to land near the green with at most a 50' putt for a birdie. to bad i can't putt to save my hide.

[Greg Layton]

Paschall Park in Mesquite (http://www.dgcoursereview.com/course.php?id=2649). This newer course has some great holes but the few pinball holes really bring it down. Many of the trees have orange spray paint around them. Maybe it's such a new course they hav'nt had a chance to finish shaping the fairways.

The pictures here look pretty tame to me... I don't see how this could be considered a "pinball" course.

[Greg Layton]

Check out hole #4 at Shirley Macey Park in Gibsons, BC. Good luck getting it to the basket and if you do, good luck finding it in all the under brush. The fun factor of this course is diminished due to holes like this one.

http://www.dgcoursereview.com/course.php?id=2106&mode=ci

Now this, on the other hand, you have a right to complain about. That's just a picture of a forest.

[garublador]

Now this, on the other hand, you have a right to complain about. That's just a picture of a forest.I'd expect Ewoks to steal my discs on that course. Watch out for Speeder Bikes!

[Eagle Man]

No, ball golf doesn't have them, which is part of why disc golf is so much better. :)

I don't think a few extra trees are "unfair" at all. There's always a route somewhere, and it's up to you to find the best way through (or over, or around).
I agree, There is a certain skill about trying to find a path through the trees to the pin

[Eagle Man]

I once had someone tell me that Cass is a miniature course because of all the trees in the middle of the fairways

[magictenor1]

I believe there should be some path to the hole. I have seen many holes where there really is not. I don't call 5-10 ft a faiway. It does bring the luck factor more into play.

[Greg Layton]

I believe there should be some path to the hole. I have seen many holes where there really is not. I don't call 5-10 ft a faiway. It does bring the luck factor more into play.

Everyone keeps talking about luck. You specifically mention 5-10 feet wide as not being a fairway. Are you implying that people who can throw their discs in a straight line are just lucky?

There's a time to "grip it and rip it" and there's a time to have accurate controlled drives. Do I hit trees on my drives occasionally? Sure. Do I blame the hole itself for me not throwing a good throw? No way.

[taxman]

here's a side question along the same topic. what disc do you all use on extremely narrow fairway pinball holes. i've always favored my Ching Sniper, but i'm starting to like my Roc. when accuracy is the most important factor, those are the discs i'm the most consistent with.

[ERicJ]

Now this, on the other hand, you have a right to complain about. That's just a picture of a forest.
I'd expect Ewoks to steal my discs on that course. Watch out for Speeder Bikes!
Now that's funny! :D

[ERicJ]

Everyone keeps talking about luck. You specifically mention 5-10 feet wide as not being a fairway. Are you implying that people who can throw their discs in a straight line are just lucky?
Who said the fairway was a straight line?

The fairway is a path to the basket. IF the fairway is perfectly straight (e.g. Shawshank #5 (http://www.dgcoursereview.com/gallery.php?id=2656&mode=gal&view=hole&hole=5&page=1)) then 5' wide is still cutting it a bit thin in my book. I'd prefer more wiggle room, but I can see the sadistic appreciation of a 5' wide perfectly straight fairway.

But if the fairway/path curves, bends, S's, etc. then my opinion says you need at least 10'.

ERic

[garublador]

here's a side question along the same topic. what disc do you all use on extremely narrow fairway pinball holes. i've always favored my Ching Sniper, but i'm starting to like my Roc. when accuracy is the most important factor, those are the discs i'm the most consistent with.Again, it depends on how "pinbally" they are. If it's a really narrow, straight shot I'll throw a Roc or Wizard. If it's longer and I really need to shape a line then I'll throw a Gazelle.

While we're talking about narrow fairways, is anyone else familiar with Walnut Ridge in Johnston, IA? Hole 15 is over 500' from the long tee and the fairway is "open," but only about 15' across the whole way. That and it curves to the left.

[Adam Schneider]

If there's a very narrow gap very close to the tee, sometimes I'll throw a line-drive tomahawk, just to make sure I clear that first gap.

[RustyP]

Hole 6 at Paschall (from the long tee) is a little too tight if you ask me, but there is a very low hyzer-skip route that's a little more obvious if you're looking back at the tee from the basket. I didn't see if the first few times I played there, and kept trying to punch a Roc through the tiny gap straight in front of the tee.

The most pinball-like hole I've ever played was probably #3 on the blue course at Burns Park in Little Rock, AR. When it's in the long (left) pin position, the "fairway" is a 90-degree left dogleg covered with tiny trees, and the gap to the fairway looks to be about 2' wide.

To answer the side question: I'll typically throw a beat Roc on a straight/narrow fairway, but if I'm desparate for distance I might pull out a seasoned Orion LS and try a sneaky hyer flip-up.

[sidewinding]

The pictures here look pretty tame to me... I don't see how this could be considered a "pinball" course.

I did'nt have my camera with me. Believe it or not there are trees in Texas.

[Greg Layton]

I did'nt have my camera with me. Believe it or not there are trees in Texas.

I grew up on the Kansas/Oklahoma border and have been to Texas a few times, so yeah, I'm aware of there being trees in the area.

Believe it or not, Kansas isn't flat... well, the eastern half anyway.

[t i m]

I've played a few holes that truly are pinball holes. Where there is no fairway. The worst one I can think of is a hole up at Barre Falls in MA, and one that's not quite as bad but still unfair is on the Dark Side of The Grange in VA.

These are holes with zero line to the basket -- you can't see the basket through the trees -- and there is no high route to go. The best locals have thrown such holes enough times that they know what parts of the hole are the thinnest with trees (or which result in the most favorable second shot), and they aim for the sections where their odds are higher of going through or taking a 3, but no one aims for a specific gap or line, because there isn't one.

In my opinion, these holes are frustrating, because they don't encourage aim. They reward locals for trial and error of throwing 100 shots at the basket, but even the locals never "master" such holes. On both of these, the trees are so tight that even rollers/blades/hammers/grenades/etc don't help your chances much.

I'm okay with a line -- any line -- to the basket. I really like courses that require some crazy types of throws to reach a basket. But on every hole, it should be possible for a 1000-rated player with a lot of different throws in their bag to have a line they can aim for.

I don't want the difference between a 2 and a 4 to be luck.

[goob069]

How about hole #7 at Bijou Community park in south lake tahoe.

http://www.dgcoursereview.com/gallery.php?id=1012&mode=gal#

[Lewis]

East Roswell Park in Roswell, GA, has some holes folks would consider pinbally. There are pathways on every hole, so I wouldn't call them unfair, but they dole out quite the punishment to the errant drive. Check out #2 for perhaps the most impressive photo. The most difficult two holes, in my opinion, are #16, a par 4 that hasn't had its picture posted, and #9, a wild sort of double-dogleg running downhill. I'm happy to par either one of them, but it doesn't happen often.

http://www.dgcoursereview.com/view_image.php?p=course_pics/213/5b8284ba.jpg

http://www.dgcoursereview.com/view_image.php?p=course_pics/213/cf75e54e.jpg

http://www.dgcoursereview.com/view_image.php?p=course_pics/213/bbbf0ac1.jpg

[Jimb]

I'm not a big arm so accuracy and effective approaches really help me boost my scores. So tight fairways are where I can make up some ground on the long arms. Check out the following courses. Of course, nailing a tree off the tee and having your disc roll away, 50' feet down a hill, further from the "fairway" can be frustrating. But then everyone playing the course has to deal with the same challenges. I wouldn't want every hole to play like these, but that's the joy of the game. There is incredible variety available on different courses. So bring on the pinballs!

Check out hole #2, for example.
http://www.dgcoursereview.com/course.php?id=1910

And #6 and #15 just for fun.
http://www.dgcoursereview.com/course.php?id=95&mode=ci

#4 & #7
http://www.dgcoursereview.com/course.php?id=950&mode=ci

#13, #14, #17
http://www.dgcoursereview.com/course.php?id=162&mode=ci

[Jimb]

175 DX Aviar P & A

[Lewis]

:eek: Those aren't disc golf courses. Those are forests. :eek:

[DirtyMittenDG]

those courses arnt that bad. I would love for some of you guys to play some of the wooded courses around here! and its not all luck, me and my friends consistantly get the same scores because we mastered the lines, but even when I first started I still found the wooded courses to be easier and more fun. I can understand why you power throwers wouldnt like them though, it takes away from your disc golf "specialty" but there still just as much disc golf courses as open field courses are.

and im not sure if this hole is everyones idea of a "pinball hole", but on this video Dave Feldburg proves that it just takes a lil practice to master "pinball holes" (watch at about 4:40)

http://www.discgolfersr.us/video/video/show?id=1809917%3AVideo%3A396352

[WillA]

The pinball holes I have seen are much worse than these photos. There is no five foot wide path to the hole. Not unless you can make your disc turn right then left then right then left again in flight.

[33tango]

I'd expect Ewoks to steal my discs on that course. Watch out for Speeder Bikes!
heh thanks for the early morning chuckle :big grin:

[taxman]

i like these photos. they are nice holes with fairly obvious paths to the basket. i'll have to dig out my camera and take pictures of some of the holes at avalanche park in boyne city, michigan. that has some TRUE pinball activity. but there is always a line.

[garublador]

The pinball holes I have seen are much worse than these photos. There is no five foot wide path to the hole. Not unless you can make your disc turn right then left then right then left again in flight.Depending on when the turns are, that's actually possible. You can get a quick break to the left with a hyzer throw, have the disc flatten, then turn over for a while and eventually fade back.

[Rbuzz9]

Devens DGC in Fort Devens http://www.dgcoursereview.com/course.php?id=1186 unfortunately no fotos.

is definitely a pinballish course. The only shot where you are not in the woods is the 1st tee shot which takes you into the woods.
it's basically a "keep your drivers at home you only need a midrange and a putter type" of course.
the tightness can be very overwhelming if it's not your style. Luckily not all courses are in the woods - but in the Northeast you can run into some completely ridiculous technical wooded holes.

the beauty of the sport is you can make a course almost anywhere. i personally prefer a combo of wide open and technical holes.

[YonderScott]

These 2 course have some really tight fairways.

#9 Fox Chase
http://www.dgcoursereview.com/view_image.php?p=course_pics/659/af1d66e8.jpg

#13 Fox Chase
http://www.dgcoursereview.com/view_image.php?p=course_pics/659/c168f113.jpg

#14 Fox Chase
http://www.dgcoursereview.com/view_image.php?p=course_pics/659/be0937a9.jpg

#5 Hillcrest
http://www.dgcoursereview.com/view_image.php?p=course_pics/2694/51cf3bb6.jpg

#7 Hillcrest
http://www.dgcoursereview.com/view_image.php?p=course_pics/2694/4d89a5e3.jpg

#13 Hillcrest
http://www.dgcoursereview.com/view_image.php?p=course_pics/2694/0b7953cb.jpg

and then there's always The Gauntlet #14 at Hornets Nest in Charlotte, NC
http://www.dgcoursereview.com/view_image.php?p=course_pics/176/acfe4cd8.jpg

[sidewinding]

Check out #7 at Hill crest above. That's what I'm talking about. Narrow fairways are fair. No fairway is not.

[Greg Layton]

Check out #7 at Hill crest above. That's what I'm talking about. Narrow fairways are fair. No fairway is not.

Yeah, I see what you're saying. That one is completely random.

[sidewinding]

Here's a pinball hole on my home course Rivery Park in G-Town. What makes this one so bad is that it's 405' and what fairway there is s-turns right then left. If you get a 5 on this hole you are doing good.

http://www.dgcoursereview.com/gallery.php?id=883&mode=gal&view=hole&hole=12&page=1#

[Adam Schneider]

Here's a pinball hole on my home course Rivery Park in G-Town. What makes this one so bad is that it's 405' and what fairway there is s-turns right then left. If you get a 5 on this hole you are doing good.

http://www.dgcoursereview.com/gallery.php?id=883&mode=gal&view=hole&hole=12&page=1#

That doesn't look "pinball-ish" at all. And what's wrong with having a few holes where you expect a 5?

[garublador]

Here's a pinball hole on my home course Rivery Park in G-Town. What makes this one so bad is that it's 405' and what fairway there is s-turns right then left. If you get a 5 on this hole you are doing good.

http://www.dgcoursereview.com/gallery.php?id=883&mode=gal&view=hole&hole=12&page=1#That hole looks fun. There are a lot of oppertunities for line shaping.

The trick on holes like that is to find landing areas and shoot for them. It's more like pool than pinball. You aren't only trying to make a shot, you're trying to set up for the next one as well. Getting as far forward as possible isn't always the best choice.

[sidewinding]

That doesn't look "pinball-ish" at all. And what's wrong with having a few holes where you expect a 5?

You have to look at the picture of the view from the tee. The link takes you to a picture of the view of the basket which is obviously fairly open.

A water skiing analogy may help explain what's wrong with it. Open holes are like water skiing in a large lake. Tunnel shots are like water skiing in a river. Pinball holes are like water skiing in a bathtub. The lake and river are fun but in the bathtub is not fun because you can never really ski. If the disc can never fly it kind of defeats the purpose of playing disc golf.

[taxman]

Check out #7 at Hill crest above. That's what I'm talking about. Narrow fairways are fair. No fairway is not.

just because the line isn't straight doesn't mean there is no line to the basket. this is a difficult hole for sure but i see a few lines for a RH player or a LH player that i would try. this is definitely a hole that would take a long time to master. i don't think i'd be able to two it, but i think that i could get a three quite often.

i would say that this is a true pinball hole. the rest of the pictures have been holes with narrow fairways.


i don't think they're unfair. it's just a different type of challenge.

if these are unfair to those that can't negotiate them. then i want the 1000' open field holes to be unfair since i can't get a 3 on them.

anything over a par 3 should be illegal since it lowers morale.

just kidding of course..


..maybe.

[WillA]

Yeah, you can S-curve shots. But these holes are like a snake and there's no distance involved to allow time for a fade. The only shot available is to blast a tomahawk and hope. The window you need to hit is maybe a foot wide in places. If you were throwing a baseball it would be hard.

[garublador]

What about a hole like this:

http://www.playdg.com/courses/?s=MN&c=bassettcreek&h=2

Where it's 200' of open, 200' of woods and then 100' of open again? I like that hole because your second shot is almost never the same, but unless you mess up bad, there's a line open.

[taxman]

wow i love the way they od the pictures there. how you click to see where the basket is from the tee and then zoom in to see the basket from an approach shot.

i also like their rating system quite a bit. i think i may adopt it for the rest of my reviews.

[Jimb]

[QUOTE=sidewinding;12689]Check out #7 at Hill crest above. That's what I'm talking about. Narrow fairways are fair. No fairway is not.[/QUOTE

Now I know what you're really talking about for a pinball hole. That's nuts. It's more like a Plinko hole from the Price is Right... even pinball requires a little skill! ;)

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://z.about.com/d/gameshows/1/0/1/5/-/-/tpirplinko.jpg&imgrefurl=http://gameshows.about.com/b/2008/07/29/plinko-goes-kerplunk-on-the-price-is-right.htm&h=170&w=140&sz=11&hl=en&start=62&usg=__6Eo3aK3WhSSU9PGa2xu_GVSeOt4=&tbnid=mIu4jSDUT7pOaM:&tbnh=99&tbnw=82&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dplinko%2Bthe%2Bprice%2Bis%2Bright%26s tart%3D54%26gbv%3D2%26ndsp%3D18%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN

[WillA]

Looks like a great hole to me.

[Fender088]

I judge pinball holes like this: if I can't see a reasonable path to the basket then there is a problem. I'm all for challenging obstacles that add to the character of the course, but let's not get ridiculous with it. It's called a fairway for a reason.

[garublador]

I judge pinball holes like this: if I can't see a reasonable path to the basket then there is a problem. I'm all for challenging obstacles that add to the character of the course, but let's not get ridiculous with it. It's called a fairway for a reason.Does it have to be to a basket or can it be to a landing zone?

[sidewinding]

Does it have to be to a basket or can it be to a landing zone?

Excellent point garublador!

[YonderScott]

Despite the picture, there is a path to the hole. It is a very narrow one, and really hard to hit. I have hit the intended path maybe 1 out of every 5 times I have played. It is located near Southern Pines, NC....not far from Pinehurst #2 for you ball golfers. If you remember the last US Open there, the pros struggled to shoot par for 72 holes. I think this is what the designers of Hillcrest had in mind.

[Adam Schneider]

You have to look at the picture of the view from the tee. The link takes you to a picture of the view of the basket which is obviously fairly open.
I did look at the view from the tee:

http://www.dgcoursereview.com/course_pics/883/5ac7ca82_m.jpg
(http://www.dgcoursereview.com/view_image.php?p=course_pics/883/5ac7ca82.jpg)
(click for bigger view)

That doesn't look like pinball to me.

[Greg Layton]

I did look at the view from the tee:

http://www.dgcoursereview.com/course_pics/883/5ac7ca82_m.jpg
(http://www.dgcoursereview.com/view_image.php?p=course_pics/883/5ac7ca82.jpg)
(click for bigger view)

That doesn't look like pinball to me.

Shoot, that's wide open.

[dcarpent]

I love holes that are covered in trees. I think that there is a great amount of skill in throwing through a narrow gap in the trees, and it's only luck if you're not skilled enough to throw an accurate shot.

[stargator231]

i think they are the best holes to practice on you really improve your control of the disc

[WillA]

I just wish I had a photo of an actual pinball hole to post LOL.

[DirtyMittenDG]

Holly Woods DGC Hole #9

http://www.dgcoursereview.com/view_image.php?p=course_pics/1364/751feb68.jpg

[Midnightbiker]

This is my home course:

http://www.dgcoursereview.com/gallery.php?id=1746&mode=gal#

[Donovan]

I recently played a course that had multiple pinball holes. I played well except for a couple of meltdowns on holes where I just kept hitting small trees that had been intentionally left in what was supposed to be a fairway. I was playing with my brother who thought it was hilarious and now loves pinball holes because he knows they can potentially even the playing field.

Am I the only one who thinks these type of holes are unfair?

Does ball golf have pinball holes?

I hate to say it brother, but I like these. I like playing them over and over trying to find that tree elusive path on each hole. I like how They make you look at all your throws on various holes to find the one that really works.

[taxman]

I judge pinball holes like this: if I can't see a reasonable path to the basket then there is a problem.

that is a reasonable statement. but all to often i play with people that think that if they can't throw a disc perfectly straight and land right on the fairway without hitting a tree that the fairway is to cluttered. the path of play is not always straight at the basket. a good example of this is a hole at Avalanche park in Boyne City, MI. hole #8 is a short hole with TONS of small trees lining either side of an old two track path that is now used as a walking path/horse path/disc golf fairway. but in this spot the path takes a few very sharp S curves. you can see the basket from the tee pad but you'd have to be a better player than me to consistenly throw through the many small trees. there is a great path to take if you want to play it safe and garantee a 3. but i always look for a line through the trees and take the risk that my accuracy will be good enough. i'm sure someone will get an ace on this hole if they haven't already. but i've also seen many players mark a 5 on it.

[Donovan]

This is North Park (http://www.dgcoursereview.com/gallery.php?id=280&mode=gal) in Haltom City (Fort Worth) Texas USA. 60% of the holes have trees all over the fairway. We love it. 1,2,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12 :D

[johnt1969]

Hillcrest #7. Dumb.

http://www.dgcoursereview.com/course_pics/2694/4d89a5e3.jpg

[johnt1969]

Hillcrest #7. Dumb.

http://www.dgcoursereview.com/course_pics/2694/4d89a5e3.jpg

Hillcrest #7. I got chastised for complaining about this hole but it's not a good hole. It's pinball. There's a lucky route (if you could call it that) but luck is not skill. Unless they took some trees out there's no way of getting 1 out of 5 there unless you have played hundreds of rounds on this course and you have some special disc and throw. You couldn't take 100 random pros, give each of them 1 shot and and have 20% end up through those trees. No way.

[garublador]

Hillcrest #7. Dumb.

http://www.dgcoursereview.com/course_pics/2694/4d89a5e3.jpgThat's defintely a pinball hole.

[dcarpent]

It could be worse, my home course right now barely has any trees in play and it can get pretty boring.

[DirtyMittenDG]

Hillcrest #7. Dumb.

http://www.dgcoursereview.com/course_pics/2694/4d89a5e3.jpg

come on now. look at that "righty open hand" path on the left just waiting for someone to ace or birdie :)

[Lewis]

I don't know, man. There might be a 5' slot for a nice anhyzer sidearm and a prayer. :rolleyes:

[DirtyMittenDG]

http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g175/its_gotta_be_dro/pinball.jpg

thas what im talkin bout', as long as you dont hit that tree near where the disc starts to turn, you should be fine. I'd say if you take 100 pros and tell them to all throw that same line I would say 50% + would get through! No hole is unplayable!!!

[martinb]

http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g175/its_gotta_be_dro/pinball.jpg

thas what im talkin bout', as long as you dont hit that tree near where the disc starts to turn, you should be fine. I'd say if you take 100 pros and tell them to all throw that same line I would say 50% + would get through! No hole is unplayable!!!


oooh i cant resist not posting anymore!!!:mad:

that is an INSANE thought process.... and shouldnt be part of any course design....unless the only people playing that hole on that course are....PROS. i dont think that is the case, in fact the case is most likely there are 100 beginners playing for every 1 pro that plays that hole. so what you are doing, in effect is penalizing almost all the beginners playing that kind of hole and course design, who dont have the skills to shoot that accurately, and most intermediate and advanced players, and half the pros because....WHY????
i do know this is why courses get bad reviews, this is also why people wont go back to a course to play it again (im talking about beginners mostly). and if its the only course in the area, then you just effectively shut down any positive input from the majority of players in that area, and any furthur involvement, which in a worst case scenario would kill disc golf there. im not saying one hole would kill it, but designing a course that only frustrates and confuses the majority of players, and that the beginner and intermediate players, doesnt do anybody any good. :(

[DirtyMittenDG]

oooh i cant resist not posting anymore!!!:mad:

that is an INSANE thought process.... and shouldnt be part of any course design....unless the only people playing that hole on that course are....PROS. i dont think that is the case, in fact the case is most likely there are 100 beginners playing for every 1 pro that plays that hole. so what you are doing, in effect is penalizing almost all the beginners playing that kind of hole and course design, who dont have the skills to shoot that accurately, and most intermediate and advanced players, and half the pros because....WHY????
i do know this is why courses get bad reviews, this is also why people wont go back to a course to play it again (im talking about beginners mostly). and if its the only course in the area, then you just effectively shut down any positive input from the majority of players in that area, and any furthur involvement, which in a worst case scenario would kill disc golf there. im not saying one hole would kill it, but designing a course that only frustrates and confuses the majority of players, and that the beginner and intermediate players, doesnt do anybody any good. :(

why is it "INSANE"?? some people prefer these kind of holes over boring open field holes!

i do know this is why courses get bad reviews, this is also why people wont go back to a course to play it again (im talking about beginners mostly). and if its the only course in the area, then you just effectively shut down any positive input from the majority of players in that area, and any furthur involvement, which in a worst case scenario would kill disc golf there.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
for me (a beginner), this quote perfectly describes if I go to a course and its has no obsticles or challenges. and plus dont most beginners play for fun and not for competition?

so what you are doing, in effect is penalizing almost all the beginners playing that kind of hole and course design

If these kind of holes have alot of "luck" and less "skill" involved then wouldnt that actually benifit the beginner??

All im really trying to say is that all holes are playable and I dont think by any means that these kind of holes will push "beginners" away from the sport!

[Tiggertooth]

I have played Paschall Park, in Mesquite TX, and happen to like it quite a bit. It only has 3 holes that come close to being pinball holes in my opinion: #2, #5, and #16 all from the long tees. Not #6, which is a bit of tunnel shot, but not pinball. #5 has a mess of about 20 trees closely placed between you and the basket, but there are additional routes for a hyzer righty. I'm a lefty, and the only wide route for me involves going around, which removes a birdie opportunity.

Despite this, and including my hatred for pinball holes, I go straight through the trees. In 8 attempts I've gotten through 5 times. Not bad for an amateur. All told, I wouldn't quite list any of these holes as pinball, though #5 comes close in my book. There are narrow gaps, and occasionally alternate routes (over the street on #2). I can't think of any other holes at Paschall Park that would qualify.

In my opinion, if the "average" golfer is just "praying" to get it through the trees, then it is a bad hole, a pinball hole. There's no strategy here, there's no risk/reward.

Furthermore, to me this is all signs of the immaturity of the sport. Ball golf has gotten rid of these sorts of obstacles over the last 100 years. Disc golf is still in its infancy, in terms of course design. I'm guessing most of the courses are being designed by people who haven't played or studied the game for many years. They're working with public land with limited funds. So it is only natural that we're going to get some poorly done holes--it may not even be the fault of the people trying to put in the course.

But as MartinB said before on this thread, these types of holes can make some people feel like disc golf is more luck than skill, more silly than sport, and not something to taken seriously. Bad holes help to keep the sport marginalized. Great courses and great holes fix that, and raise the appreciation of the sport. Harry Myers DGC in Rockwall, TX is an example of a course that elevates the sport.

When my buddies and I play on a pinball hole (of which there are several around the DFW area), it is mostly luck who gets the par or birdie, and who gets the 5. And that ruins the game. It isn't fun to be competitive throughout a round, then come to a hole and realize that the winner is the one with the most luck.

I understand that there are some who can hit a 2' gap and snake it through the trees, consistently. It doesn't matter though. What makes a good hole is one where there is a proper blend between risk vs. reward, and that people of all skill levels understand what the designer has asked them to do. Some of the photos people have linked to break that pact between the designer and the player.

In my opinion, Pashall Park doesn't have any pinball holes, though there is one that is close. And I think pinball holes are harmful to the game. But tight fairways and careful placement are fine for the game. I think a good objective way to try to determine if a hole meets its criteria is to determine how often players during a non A-tier tournament get through the pinball section of a hole.

Ken

[DirtyMittenDG]

Ball golf has gotten rid of these sorts of obstacles over the last 100 years.

thank god ball golf and disc golf are 2 different sports!!! lol

You guys would just love if every hole at every disc golf course looked like this wouldnt you!

http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g175/its_gotta_be_dro/stony.jpg

O wait that big tree on the right might be a little much huh?? lol

[martinb]

why is it "INSANE"?? some people prefer these kind of holes over boring open field holes!

now now, dont change the subject....the thread is about pinball holes, or tee shots that dont offer a preferred route to the basket, thus becomes f*%& luck if you make it to the basket. perhaps insane is too strong a word. i would say its insane if a course designer implements a hole like that if he/she has other opportunities to create a challenging and tough hole that doesnt involve luck.

for me (a beginner), this quote perfectly describes if I go to a course and its has no obsticles or challenges. and plus dont most beginners play for fun and not for competition?

i would agree with you there. a course that doesnt provide an opportunity to challenge the player is lame. which is the exact thing im talking about. getting lucky doesnt challenge you, just like a wide open shot doesnt. now how much fun is it to smack into trees, say if it was your very first time at a course with lots of pinball holes? if it was me i would say, "this is stupid, i should have stayed home playing tiddlywinks, at least i know i have a chance to get it into the bucket :rolleyes:". as far as competition is involved, i wouldnt waste my money and time on a course like that. neither would 90% of competitive players. so once again the pinball holes only cater to the few players who like it that way. of course the last statement also refers to wide open holes too.

If these kind of holes have alot of "luck" and less "skill" involved then wouldnt that actually benifit the beginner??
All im really trying to say is that all holes are playable and I dont think by any means that these kind of holes will push "beginners" away from the sport!

i would say it would benefit the beginner only if he was competing against higher skilled players. holes like that dont benefit anybody at any level. luck is luck and skill is skill. thats really what im trying to get at. if it takes skill to execute a shot without luck involved then the reward personally should be far greater. sure make the hole tough, but making it so impossible that only luck will affect the outcome of your shot, whats the fun in that?
it will push beginners away from the sport because feelings are a huge part of any sport. if you felt like you were wasting your time playing a game that didnt offer any kind of challenge, why would you come back? poorly designed holes that are too tight, or wide open does make a difference in peoples minds whether you believe it or not. in my case after playing a course with too much luck involved i would gravitate to another course that would challenge my skill level and not play there again.

[Tiggertooth]

:-)

Perhaps you misunderstood me. I want narrow fairways and controlled shots. And I don't think the hole that the original poster was talking about qualifies as a pinball hole.

What I'm arguing against are those holes which do qualify. Of course that's subjective. If you haven't found a single hole that felt unfair to you, great. (By unfair here I mean simply that too much luck is involved in getting the disc to the basket.) I have found those holes for me.

So we differ. I think all we really differ on is how much luck, or how accurate you have to be, in order for the hole to be fair. I'm assuming that you can imagine a line of trees so thick that you would find it unfair. But maybe I'm wrong--maybe you're okay with any hole configuration. In which case we don't differ by degree, but more fundamentally (you believe any configuration for a hole is fair, and I don't). But I'm guessing you don't feel that way.

If we do differ by degree, and I would think most everyone on this thread does (pro or con) then it would be interesting to find out what percentage of amateur shots need to be able to get through a tree-line for it to be considered fair. I think I'd say 65%.

Anyone else have an opinion on what percentage of shots would need to get through in order for a tree-line to be fair, and not pinball?

Ken

[Lewis]

Anyone else have an opinion on what percentage of shots would need to get through in order for a tree-line to be fair, and not pinball?

Good question, Ken, but I fear it's totally unanswerable. Everyone is going to have a different opinion, and I supect our opinions will be related to our skill.

[WillA]

defintely DUMB!

[Jimb]

How would this one play?

http://images.search.yahoo.com/images/view?back=http%3A%2F%2Fimages.search.yahoo.com%2Fs earch%2Fimages%3Fp%3Dcar%2Bwash%252C%2B-hot%252C%2B-babe%26js%3D1%26ni%3D18%26ei%3Dutf-8%26y%3DSearch%26fr%3Dfptb-hptb8%26xargs%3D0%26pstart%3D1%26b%3D217&w=500&h=375&imgurl=static.flickr.com%2F38%2F94332865_4f8436566 5.jpg&rurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.flickr.com%2Fphotos%2F108989 55%40N00%2F94332865%2F&size=101.9kB&name=Car+Wash&p=car+wash%2C+-hot%2C+-babe&type=JPG&oid=1e9526385a5a006a&fusr=Rich62&tit=Car+Wash&hurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.flickr.com%2Fphotos%2F108989 55%40N00%2F&no=226&tt=281,729&sigr=11jk7onan&sigi=11c1v48h7&sigb=14auckfqd&sigh=11a7m83sn

[Jimb]

Pinball holes... like 'em or not, everyone has to play the same holes and is at the mercy of the same tee and pin placements. For a lot of players, playing a true pinball hole would be less frustrating then playing a hole where you have to carry 250'+ of water. It all just depends on what you make of your situation. Just be glad that you're on the course... and not at work... or in prison... or eating your mother-in-laws meatloaf... or playing ball golf!!!!

[Donovan]

How would this one play?

http://images.search.yahoo.com/images/view?back=http%3A%2F%2Fimages.search.yahoo.com%2Fs earch%2Fimages%3Fp%3Dcar%2Bwash%252C%2B-hot%252C%2B-babe%26js%3D1%26ni%3D18%26ei%3Dutf-8%26y%3DSearch%26fr%3Dfptb-hptb8%26xargs%3D0%26pstart%3D1%26b%3D217&w=500&h=375&imgurl=static.flickr.com%2F38%2F94332865_4f8436566 5.jpg&rurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.flickr.com%2Fphotos%2F108989 55%40N00%2F94332865%2F&size=101.9kB&name=Car+Wash&p=car+wash%2C+-hot%2C+-babe&type=JPG&oid=1e9526385a5a006a&fusr=Rich62&tit=Car+Wash&hurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.flickr.com%2Fphotos%2F108989 55%40N00%2F&no=226&tt=281,729&sigr=11jk7onan&sigi=11c1v48h7&sigb=14auckfqd&sigh=11a7m83sn

I would paly low flying skip shot off the ground so the it comes up high from the low hanging 'brush' and propel the distance to the pin. ;)

[adlacro]

Try number 7 at Tinicum Park in Erwinna, PA. That is about as close as I can get to a pinball hole. I like pinball holes as long as the pin is in a decent location and fair enough for both pros and ams to make par. Plus it gives me more oppurtuinities to throw a thumber.

I'm sure Lums Pond in Bear, DE has a few pinball holes. Maybe South Mountain DGC in Bethlehem. I've played South Mountain probably 100 times, and it never gets old!

[valkyriefb11]

I dont know if I would call Tinicum 7 a pin-ball hole. -->
http://www.dgcoursereview.com/view_image.php?p=course_pics/22/1e30a156.jpg
There is definitely a clear fairway - and its right down the center of the hole. I'm not a great player and I can hit that fairway - sometimes :rolleyes: . Honestly, I enjoy a challenging hole with small fairways. Holes like these force me to become a better thrower.

[sidewinding]

oooh i cant resist not posting anymore!!!:mad:

that is an INSANE thought process.... and shouldnt be part of any course design....unless the only people playing that hole on that course are....PROS. i dont think that is the case, in fact the case is most likely there are 100 beginners playing for every 1 pro that plays that hole. so what you are doing, in effect is penalizing almost all the beginners playing that kind of hole and course design, who dont have the skills to shoot that accurately, and most intermediate and advanced players, and half the pros because....WHY????
i do know this is why courses get bad reviews, this is also why people wont go back to a course to play it again (im talking about beginners mostly). and if its the only course in the area, then you just effectively shut down any positive input from the majority of players in that area, and any furthur involvement, which in a worst case scenario would kill disc golf there. im not saying one hole would kill it, but designing a course that only frustrates and confuses the majority of players, and that the beginner and intermediate players, doesnt do anybody any good. :(

why is it "INSANE"?? some people prefer these kind of holes over boring open field holes!

now now, dont change the subject....the thread is about pinball holes, or tee shots that dont offer a preferred route to the basket, thus becomes f*%& luck if you make it to the basket. perhaps insane is too strong a word. i would say its insane if a course designer implements a hole like that if he/she has other opportunities to create a challenging and tough hole that doesnt involve luck.

for me (a beginner), this quote perfectly describes if I go to a course and its has no obsticles or challenges. and plus dont most beginners play for fun and not for competition?

i would agree with you there. a course that doesnt provide an opportunity to challenge the player is lame. which is the exact thing im talking about. getting lucky doesnt challenge you, just like a wide open shot doesnt. now how much fun is it to smack into trees, say if it was your very first time at a course with lots of pinball holes? if it was me i would say, "this is stupid, i should have stayed home playing tiddlywinks, at least i know i have a chance to get it into the bucket :rolleyes:". as far as competition is involved, i wouldnt waste my money and time on a course like that. neither would 90% of competitive players. so once again the pinball holes only cater to the few players who like it that way. of course the last statement also refers to wide open holes too.

If these kind of holes have alot of "luck" and less "skill" involved then wouldnt that actually benifit the beginner??
All im really trying to say is that all holes are playable and I dont think by any means that these kind of holes will push "beginners" away from the sport!

i would say it would benefit the beginner only if he was competing against higher skilled players. holes like that dont benefit anybody at any level. luck is luck and skill is skill. thats really what im trying to get at. if it takes skill to execute a shot without luck involved then the reward personally should be far greater. sure make the hole tough, but making it so impossible that only luck will affect the outcome of your shot, whats the fun in that?
it will push beginners away from the sport because feelings are a huge part of any sport. if you felt like you were wasting your time playing a game that didnt offer any kind of challenge, why would you come back? poorly designed holes that are too tight, or wide open does make a difference in peoples minds whether you believe it or not. in my case after playing a course with too much luck involved i would gravitate to another course that would challenge my skill level and not play there again.

These two posts are great and say everything I wanted to say but did'nt know how and did'nt have the time.

Thanks martinb!

[DirtyMittenDG]

i would agree with you there. a course that doesnt provide an opportunity to challenge the player is lame. which is the exact thing im talking about. getting lucky doesnt challenge you, just like a wide open shot doesnt. now how much fun is it to smack into trees,.

why do you think that pinball holes are all luck??? Its about pinpoint accuracy, its the same amount of luck as when you throw a bomb as hard as you can and hope you throw it perfect. Now if you throw more bombs throws than short accurate throws, than ofcourse your gonna be more consistant with big throws, but for people like me, I am more consistant on short accurate "pinball" shots than big drives! If its a 600 ft. hole with pinball gaps the whole way, well thats a different story but pinball holes usually make up for them selves by being shorter! So whats the problem? just because you dont like these holes dosnt mean that its a "bad course design" and for sure dosnt hurt the sport!!

say if it was your very first time at a course with lots of pinball holes? if it was me i would say, "this is stupid, i should have stayed home playing tiddlywinks.:cool:

[t i m]

the problem with true pinball holes is that it is luck, which works out for locals over the course of dozens of rounds of play -- everyone gets screwed and everyone gets lucky eventually. However, for competitive play, pinball holes detract from the competitive element, because it does introduce a luck factor; you only get to play a hole once or twice, so there aren't enough rounds for the luck to even out across the field.

When I define a "pinball hole," I define it as a hole that has no discernible route... and by that, I don't mean that a hole has to have a route obvious from the teepad or that a hole has to have a route that any player can throw.

If a hole has a route that requires a 300' high flick anhyzer knifing through trees to get there, that's fair. If a hole requires grenade straight up over high trees, that's fair. If a hole requires a player to lay up 100' to the left, then throw 100' to a landing zone on the right, then throw 100' back left to the basket, that's fair. If a hole requires a wide, low, hard, skipping shot with a hugely overstable disc, that's fair. If a hole requires a low flick roller under branches for 400', that's fair. However, if there are so many trees in the way that a local pro with every shot in the game at their disposal can't find a route to the basket that they can hit at least 50/50, and can't find a way to take a safe par on the hole with any consistency, then the hole needs to be rethought.

Usually, holes that appear to be pinball holes have some route that locals find when they play enough times. Or holes have strange routes than only a handful of players have the right kind of shot to throw (Schwebby thumber, anyone?), and as long as there IS a route that can be found by trial and error or can be hit by a disc golf phenom, then there is a certain "fairness" to the hole. It's when a local pro and an Am3 playing the course for the first time have the same odds of getting to the basket that you have a serious design problem. And those type of pinball holes do exist. And SHOULD BE ELIMINATED.

[garublador]

To be fair the scoring distribution on a pinball hole probalby isn't all that different from a really easy hole when you're talking about more experienced players. Most people will get the same score. You'll get the occasional shot that doesn't hit any trees just in the same way you'll get the occasional ace on an easy hole.

[WillA]

I think we are all talking past each other. When I call a hole a pimball hole that means there is no path to the basket. All you can do is throw and hope you bounce somewhere that gives you an angle to the basket. With maybe one exception the holes pictured here are tunnel holes not pinball holes.

[martinb]

I think we are all talking past each other. When I call a hole a pimball hole that means there is no path to the basket. All you can do is throw and hope you bounce somewhere that gives you an angle to the basket. With maybe one exception the holes pictured here are tunnel holes not pinball holes.

exactly :)

[johnt1969]

Just be glad that you're on the course... and not at work... or in prison... or eating your mother-in-laws meatloaf... or playing ball golf!!!!

I'm sure you'll all hate me for this but...

If I could afford to play ball golf all the time I would do that over disc golf any day. It's more way challenging, better surroundings, more variety, more choices.... it's a gentleman's sport. You never have to worry about a 10-some or someone screaming during your shot. The courses are well manicured. If it wasn't for ball golf then disc golf wouldn't exist.

But I like disc golf too:D

But as for the topic of pinball holes. If there is no real path to the basket then the hole is "DUMB".

[Disc Dog]

Unless the intent of the hole is to force a player to throw over the tree line with a reasonable landing zone on the other side, a hole should have a reasonable fairway through which to throw your disc.

Leave pinball to the arcades. Disc golf should be a game of skill much more than luck. That's my opinion.

ERic

Exactly.

[SomeChump]

I recently played a course that had multiple pinball holes. I played well except for a couple of meltdowns on holes where I just kept hitting small trees that had been intentionally left in what was supposed to be a fairway. I was playing with my brother who thought it was hilarious and now loves pinball holes because he knows they can potentially even the playing field.

Am I the only one who thinks these type of holes are unfair?

Does ball golf have pinball holes?

In general, I think you want to design a hole so a skilled player will score well and a less skilled player won't. Divide a hole into 3 equal distance segments. Mandatory tight slots in the first segment is good and rewards skill. It forces you to release the disc in an appropriate direction. A 4 or 5 foot gap is appropriate. In the second third of the hole, there should be no super tight gaps, that only rewards luck. But it should allow a skilled player who can throw a particular line to score better than a less-skilled player who can only throw hyzers, or someone who can only throw backhand etc. 10-15 foot gaps are appropriate. In the last third of the hole, things should open up at least from one direction. A mandatory 4 foot gap is not fair 300 feet from the tee. That's simply a luck shot. If you can throw the distance, you can get your release right, and you can hit the required line, you really should have a birdie putt, at least a long one. If you can't throw the line, you should have a good chance to save par with a good upshot. If you blow the release, you should be playing for bogey.

JMHO

[bcr123psu]

Disc Dog - Just curious, are you trying to get your post count up? What's with the responses to two-year-old threads? Inquiring minds want to know.

[craftsman]

What a bunch of babies here;)

risk/reward people! Nobody said you have to reach the circle in one throw- if you think you can, go for it, but realize the risk involved. If I saw others on my card skip and shank, I'd throw my putter in 200ft increments- it's not like any of those holes were 1000ft! Break down fairways into little bites- throw to where you think it won't make it through, but pick a good spot, then toss again.
Maybe some putter roller training is in order...
Or maybe if you guys finessed comets instead of cranking on buzzzez;)

[AJ_86]

No hole is unfair. You just have to sit there for a minute and try and figure out how to beat the course at it's level.

At Ronnie Van Zant, they want you to throw right through a big brush island on 13. I shoot around the right side of it in a sweeping fade that usually lands me in easy birdie range.

12 is even better. It's straight out with a hard right turn to the green. Between you and the basket is some of the thickest brush I've ever dealt with, even if there are a ton of paths in it thanks to golfers searching for discs. I don't follow the so proper fairway... I send my disc on a ballistic course straight over the top of the brush. I usually land it within fifteen feet. Once I stuck it in the mud a mere foot to one side. One day, 12... one day... I will ace you.

[LeewayeDiscGolf]

Wouldn't an actual disc golf pinball machine be awesome?!

[ArcheType]

Or maybe if you guys finessed comets instead of cranking on buzzzez;)

Don't you talk about my buzzz!!!:mad:

[Ryan P.]

Holes can be inherently unfair. If there is no path to the hole, that would be unfair. Granted, no hole is going to have zero path to the hole, but that is beside the point. The point is that there is a certain line where a hole becomes fair. It needs to be cleared out at least a little.

I think that if the top pros cannot hit a gap more than 30% of the time, then the hole is definitely unfair.

[mashnut]

Unfair and poorly designed are two very different things. A true pinball hole is a poor design to really test a disc golfer's skill, but if everyone has to play the same hole I don't see that as being unfair.

[craftsman]

Don't you talk about my buzzz!!!:mad:

Haha. Don't get me wrong, the buzzz is great at flying further then other mids, but for a pinball hole- you're better off fh rolling it (something else it's good at).

[thatdirtykid]

I agree, generally not a good hole, but every one is playing the same hole. Experienced players will hit their gap more consistently than less skilled players, and will also be better at getting up and down.

Holes like this also reward the smart player who doesn't throw hard trying to get a miracle birdie IE: "if only it hadn't hit that one tree that kicked me into jail it would have been parked, instead I took a 4 what bad luck" the player with strong mental game would be "I threw my putter through the gap to that open area and was able to get up and down for a 3" and the really skilled player with a strong mental game would say " I threw my putter through the gap to that open area and hit a tough putt for birdie"

I can't tell you how many times someone in my group (or I) have tried to hit a gap hard or shanked a drive and said "I got a two on this in practice" not thinking that its going to be a low percentage shot.

Getting past the idea that just because you have/can birdie a hole means you should try every time mentality will go a long way for someones game.

[GeoWolf]

Has anyone in this thread played the Horning's Hideout Meadow Ridge course (AKA the #3 rated course on this site)????? It is a magnificent course by any standard, but there are at least three holes on that course that would qualify as a "pinball" hole by the standards that have been stated - specifically the "top of the world" hole on the course.

I've played De Lavega, Whistler's Bend, and Meadow ridge. There is no fun in a top of the world shot with no solid line to follow.

Now, in the Pacific Northwest (as i'm sure in many other parts of the country) there are some holes with ridiculous pinball shots (i.e. hole 15 at pier park for the easiest example of Pac. NW pinball holes), but in disc golf there are holes that challenge the aim of a throw, and there are holes that should really be reconsidered by the course designer.

[DirtyMittenDG]

Its very fair. Some people practice on those kind of holes daily.

Take me to a course with no trees and you would proly smoke me. But lets play a course with trees everywhere and i'll deliver the pain. That's fair IMO.

[deBebbler]

What a bunch of pansies.

[CwAlbino]

I see two routes to Hillcrest #7. I would prefer the high hyzer on the right I think.

http://i54.tinypic.com/2ir94j4.jpg

The next two are hole 4 and 5 from Carroll Marty dgc (http://www.dgcoursereview.com/course_pics/287/c087b4c7.jpg). The first one is quite narrow but we get through on a daily basis.
http://www.dgcoursereview.com/course_pics/287/cdb2a359.jpg

This one you cannot see in the picture but it's a perfect hyzer spike shot or overhand.
http://www.dgcoursereview.com/course_pics/287/c087b4c7.jpg

[AJ_86]

See, I love holes like that.

[thatdirtykid]

See, I love holes like that.

Me too, they are high risk reward shots. You throw the risk shot with enough power to park it, and if you get a bad kick you are punished. You throw the safe shot and a bad kick only puts you 5' off line, and then you just need one more safe shot to get within 15-20' of the pin. Even on the upshot you have to man up and leave yourself with the putt, not the drop in.

[woodstock]

More luck than skill, hate these holes.

[solomon.trenton]

More luck than skill, hate these holes.

the firs pic i agree with you. the other two are good in my book.

[thatdirtykid]

I still don't get the "more luck than skill argument" I bet if you and a 1000 rated pro teed off on this hole 10 times each, the majority of the 1000 rated pro's shots would be closer than the majority of yours. And if they do get a bad kick, i bet they are much better at recovering.

[Cgkdisc]

The problem is when two 1000-rated players play lucky holes. Both will throw shots with similar accuracy but one will likely be luckier than the other on the bounces. Holes should be measuring the skills that day of equally skilled players and not who is luckier that day.

[Smigles]

Narrow holes half way down a 600 feet fairway are not skill. Dont tell me that you know anyone who will hit a 5 feet window consistantly from 300 feet away. That's where the holes get lucky. And sucky.

And no, it does not have to be 300 feet away. Fairways with several small windows at 50, 100, 150 and 200 feet are just as bad. I like a challenge, and i like a narrow hole, but everythign has its limits.

[WillA]

What I really object aren't holes with narrow gaps but holes with no real fairway. I've played holes where there was no line to the basket unless your disc could turn right then left then right then left again. You just have to throw a tomahawk and hope.

[optidiscic]

What I really object aren't holes with narrow gaps but holes with no real fairway. I've played holes where there was no line to the basket unless your disc could turn right then left then right then left again. You just have to throw a tomahawk and hope.

I bet theres a line in there somewheres

[xJFK]

i love crowded holes! i rarely do well on them, but when i threw that perfect line, it's better than sex

[solomon.trenton]

i love crowded holes! i rarely do well on them, but when i threw that perfect line, it's better than sex

youre doing it wrong then:doh:

[DiscJunkie]

The problem is when two 1000-rated players play lucky holes. Both will throw shots with similar accuracy but one will likely be luckier than the other on the bounces. Holes should be measuring the skills that day of equally skilled players and not who is luckier that day.

Quoted for truth.
I agree that fair holes will test skill, not luck.
To make a shot or a hole such that a Rec player has the same throw-and-hope chance as a Pro may be fair in one sense, but unfair to the Pro who has worked to hone his craft. Making his skill useless.
That is not fair and not good design.

[solomon.trenton]

but one hole like that isnt going to ruin their round or anything. and it isnt poor design in my book, maybe just a "we ran out of space" thing

[Essington]

i love crowded holes! i rarely do well on them, but when i threw that perfect line, it's better than sexyoure doing it wrong then:doh:
Not wrong at all. Unlike sex, once you do really well on a difficult hole in disc golf, you can play another right away!

[Ace D]

those are unfair and they really piss me off. it certainly does even the playing field, and turns good rounds into lotto wins. ball golf virtually never has fairways that tight, with low ceilings or random trees left in the middle of the fairway.

[AJ_86]

Yeah, well... ball golf was invented by the Scots. Take that for what you will.

[fairweather_fan]

Yeah, well... ball golf was invented by the Scots. Take that for what you will.

if it's not scottish, it's crap?

[wkelly42]

I started looking at some pictures of the course I play at every week (Armco Park White (http://www.dgcoursereview.com/course.php?id=3230&mode=ci))-- the pictures posted here make it look awful, but it's really not.

http://www.dgcoursereview.com/course_pics/3230/f02add97_m.jpg
#13 -- This looks hideous from the picture, but the hole opens up pretty well fifty feet out from the basket.

http://www.dgcoursereview.com/course_pics/3230/2fc0405a_m.jpg
#8 -- Good hyzer AND anhyzer lines on this hole (even though I usually miss them).

http://www.dgcoursereview.com/course_pics/3230/bf42bfc9_m.jpg
#16 -- I've birdied this one a few times. Tight opening, but not impossible when you're careful.

The holes aren't long, so that might be why I don't see a problem, but #6 at Paschall Park (which someone was complaining about earlier in the thread) is shorter than these, with fewer trees. (Yardages marked on the pictures for Armco are off because the layout has changed, but the picture info hasn't been edited yet.)