flight rating question

[iDisc]

my question has to do with the -1 HSS of the destroyer.

ok so here it is, destroyers and boss' both have -1 HSS and are the fastest discs on the market(along with a few others). there are speed 9-10 discs such as the orc and the avenger(says www.discgolfcenter.com) that have -1 HSS. since it is easier to get the Destroyer to a higher speed with the same effort then would that mean it could turn over easier? if you throw an orc with the same exact arm speed as a destroyer would it be harder to turn over the orc because it flys slower? or is this factored in when making the disc and the discs stability rating?

[discinvan]

The higher the speed rating the disc is the harder it is to turn over. It all depends on the power of your throw. For me ( I don't have a lot of power) I throw an orc and it is very stable at my power level. My average drive being ~250 the orc acts like +1 HSS for someone that could throw 400 +. I hope i'm making sense here.

[stargator231]

yeah i was thinking about that the other day since i got the boss. i think it is still takes more to flip a higher speed disc over

[iDisc]

wouldnt it be easier to make the destroyer to right because it is so fast and it has -1 HSS?
it's just not making sense right now :s

[nosajeel99]

The faster a disc, the faster it needs to go to reach its optimum flight stats (the -1 HSS). If it flies slower than its speed, it will be more overstable. So, if you throw a Destroyer too slowly, it will turn left for a Right Hand Back Hand. Throw it at its speed ratining (12?) then it will turn to the right for RHBH (-1).

Faster discs need more speed... hence they are faster. Slower discs are easier to get to their speed (or even above their speed) and turn understable.

[discinator]

I think this is something that is misunderstood a lot. The speed rating doesn't mean that that is how fast the disc will go. It means that it needs to go that fast to fly like it was intended to fly. That's why you can overpower a lot of the slower discs and cause them to turnover.

[taxman]

the way it was explained to me is there really are two speed ratings. the speed of the disc, and the speed of your arm. lets say your arm speed is a 9. and you pick up a speed 9 disc. it should fly just as the disc is intended. if you were to pick up a similar disc in a slower speed (lets say speed 7) your still throwing it at speed 9 so it will be slightly less stable than it would be if thrown by a speed 7 arm. similarly if you were to go buy the newest fastest speed disc on the market like the 13 boss. when you throw that it will fly more over stable than someone with a faster arm speed.

so to really know how a disc will fly you have to understand what your personal speed is at. i would say that 6 months ago i was a speed 5 or 6. at the time i was throwing a leopard just as the picture showed on the innova flight guide. by the end of this summer i think my technique improved and my leopard started to turn over more. so i got a road runner and it's been flying just the way i want it to. so i'd say i'm up to a personal speed of about a 9. i have faster discs but they don't fly quite like the diagram says they should. my xcalibur, for instance, does nothing but fade.

[Lewis]

It has a lot to do with spin as well, doesn't it? By which I mean, even if you throw it 100mph, but without good snap, you won't get good spin, and it will act more stable than its rating.

[garublador]

the way it was explained to me is there really are two speed ratings. the speed of the disc, and the speed of your arm. lets say your arm speed is a 9. and you pick up a speed 9 disc. it should fly just as the disc is intended. if you were to pick up a similar disc in a slower speed (lets say speed 7) your still throwing it at speed 9 so it will be slightly less stable than it would be if thrown by a speed 7 arm. similarly if you were to go buy the newest fastest speed disc on the market like the 13 boss. when you throw that it will fly more over stable than someone with a faster arm speed.

so to really know how a disc will fly you have to understand what your personal speed is at. i would say that 6 months ago i was a speed 5 or 6. at the time i was throwing a leopard just as the picture showed on the innova flight guide. by the end of this summer i think my technique improved and my leopard started to turn over more. so i got a road runner and it's been flying just the way i want it to. so i'd say i'm up to a personal speed of about a 9. i have faster discs but they don't fly quite like the diagram says they should. my xcalibur, for instance, does nothing but fade.To add some confusion to this, there are discs out there that are slower but nearly impossible to overpower. The Teebird and Roc are classic examples. While the Teebird is a speed 7 disc, you have to be able to throw it nearly 580' with a clean throw before you overpower it and it flips. This isn't even true for most faster discs.

Most of us aren't able to get anything past a speed 9 or maybe 10 disc up to speed and that's assuming you're throwing speed 6 and 7 discs 350'.

[valkyriefb11]

so to really know how a disc will fly you have to understand what your personal speed is at. i would say that 6 months ago i was a speed 5 or 6. at the time i was throwing a leopard just as the picture showed on the innova flight guide. by the end of this summer i think my technique improved and my leopard started to turn over more. so i got a road runner and it's been flying just the way i want it to. so i'd say i'm up to a personal speed of about a 9. i have faster discs but they don't fly quite like the diagram says they should. my xcalibur, for instance, does nothing but fade.

Is it really the speed of your arm, or just your ability to learn how to properly throw a disc?? ... heres why I ask: I can throw my DX destroyer exactly like it is supposed to fly according to the flight guide ... but I highly doubt my arm speed is a 12 ... [At the beginning of the summer I couldn't throw the destroyer at the time I was mainly throwing a valkyrie ... after working all summer on throwing the destroyer I'm now able to throw it consistently well.]

To add some confusion to this, there are discs out there that are slower but nearly impossible to overpower. The Teebird and Roc are classic examples. While the Teebird is a speed 7 disc, you have to be able to throw it nearly 580' with a clean throw before you overpower it and it flips.

Thats one of the reasons I love the Tee-Bird :cool:

[garublador]

Is it really the speed of your arm, or just your ability to learn how to properly throw a disc?? ... heres why I ask: I can throw my DX destroyer exactly like it is supposed to fly according to the flight guide ... but I highly doubt my arm speed is a 12 ... [At the beginning of the summer I couldn't throw the destroyer at the time I was mainly throwing a valkyrie ... after working all summer on throwing the destroyer I'm now able to throw it consistently well.It could be off-axis torque as well:

http://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=846

Unless the Destroyer is flying well over 400' for you, it's more likey that you're throwing the disc less properly than more.

[valkyriefb11]

That makes sense .. some of what you described sounds like me (especially maxing out at 350')
I guess Ill have to work more on controlling my OAT
Thanks for that!

[Lewis]

I keep hearing about OAT, but what does it look like? The technical description of it is opaque to my mind's eye.

[garublador]

I keep hearing about OAT, but what does it look like? The technical description of it is opaque to my mind's eye.Spin a disc on your finger. If you push the disc to get it to go faster and don't do it just right the disc wobbles. That force that's causing the disc to wobble rather than just making it go faster is OAT.

If you palm is facing upwards immedately after the disc rips out of your hand then you're rolling your wrist and imparting OAT. If you follow through on a plane different from the plane on which you threw the disc (i.e. you threw with a 15 degree hyzer, but followed through with your shoulders flat to the ground) you'll impart OAT as well.

Torque is just a rotational force. It's direction is talked about in terms of the axis in which the force rotates about. The disc spins about an axis that goes through the center of the disc. If there's a force that is about a different axis, it's "off-axis torque."

[iDisc]

i learned how to play disc golf by throwing wraiths. my arm speed isnt that fast but i can throw all the fast discs the way they are meant to fly. i guess its learning how to throw the discs, and i cant throw a tbird or an orc to save my life

[Lewis]

Getting used to the rim can be a challenge. I've had a lot of trouble getting used to the way the rim of a Roc feels, but I trust that once I'm used to it, I'll get better at throwing it.

[Lewis]

So garublador, by "wobble" do you mean the fluttery action a badly throw disc has, like a spun coin gradually coming to rest?

[ERicJ]

While the Teebird is a speed 7 disc, you have to be able to throw it nearly 580' with a clean throw before you overpower it and it flips. This isn't even true for most faster discs.
Really...? Okay, now I'm gonna have to dig out one of those Teebirds from my reserve bin and try it again. I haven't thrown one since I was told the Teebird-L was a great beginner disc and then I turned it over and sailed it off into the reeds at Pleasure Island (http://www.dgcoursereview.com/course.php?id=937) a long time back. Hmmm... a mostly straight flyer that I can't turn over... Now you've got me curious.

ERic

[garublador]

Really...? Okay, now I'm gonna have to dig out one of those Teebirds from my reserve bin and try it again. I haven't thrown one since I was told the Teebird-L was a great beginner disc and then I turned it over and sailed it off into the reeds at Pleasure Island (http://www.dgcoursereview.com/course.php?id=937) a long time back. Hmmm... a mostly straight flyer that I can't turn over... Now you've got me curious.

ERicJust to be clear, I'm not talking about the Teebird-L. It's a different disc from the regular Teebird. The Teebird-L will not exhibit the behavior I was talking about.

FWIW, a beat DX Teebird will be the longest and straightest of the bunch. I asked a big arm pro why he chooses Champ Teebirds over DX and he said it was too hard to control distance with the DX. He kept ending up 50' past where he was aiming. He also throws Wizards on most holes under 400' if he has enough height to play with. I was afraid to ask how long the holes were he was overshooting with a DX Teebird.

The only issue with the Teebird is that it's not very versatile or forgiving. It's really only good for straight shots and some hyzers. Given just a bit too much OAT they'll turn over and not fade back predictably if at all. Slower discs that are high speed understable and low speed overstable (DX Gazelle, DX Eagle-X, D Cyclone, DX Cheetah, Polaris LS, DX Ace) are better for learning to control OAT and shaping lines. That and learning to throw stable mids (Roc, Wasp, Buzzz) and stable putters (Wizard, Aviar Driver, Challenger, Banger, Warlock) far without them turning over will help you build to where you're really able to throw faster discs and get the most out of them.

So garublador, by "wobble" do you mean the fluttery action a badly throw disc has, like a spun coin gradually coming to rest? That's the motion I'm talking about. I'm not sure the cause is the same, though. With faster discs you might not see the wobble, but they'll act more understable than intended at shorter distances. With slower discs they'll wobble, flip and turn into cut rollers.

[Three Putt]

That's the motion I'm talking about. I'm not sure the cause is the same, though. With faster discs you might not see the wobble, but they'll act more understable than intended at shorter distances. With slower discs they'll wobble, flip and turn into cut rollers.The sensation is really similar to throwing a change-up. From the throwers perspective I know the minute I do it even if I don't see the wobble just from the feeling of the disc leaving my hand. When I accidentally OAT a throw, I just imagine Ryan Howard swinging way out in front of it for a strike (it has to be a lefty hitter, because with the disc flipping if you imagine throwing to a righty you will hit the batter in the head :eek:.) It gives me a momentary feeling of happiness before I have to go find out exactly how short my throw came up.

[ERicJ]

Really...? Okay, now I'm gonna have to dig out one of those Teebirds from my reserve bin and try it again. I haven't thrown one since I was told the Teebird-L was a great beginner disc and then I turned it over and sailed it off into the reeds at Pleasure Island (http://www.dgcoursereview.com/course.php?id=937) a long time back. Hmmm... a mostly straight flyer that I can't turn over... Now you've got me curious.

Dug out a reasonably well used Champ TeeBird today and it did fly really straight. Call me impressed. :) Might have to add that one to my bag....

ERic

[ScottJB]

The throw that will send a teeBird 580ft would easily send a Destroyer 700+ft, the Tee birds lack of speed, or drag, does not equally balance its innability to turn over, as the faster speed sends the destroyer so much further from the launch before it hits it cruising speed and its flight characteristics start to take over, that even though it breaks left hard, depending on how much your wrist rolled over and or you dialed it in by Annieing, it will have travelled farther, faster, and generally with a much greater skip...

[33tango]

That's the motion I'm talking about. I'm not sure the cause is the same, though. With faster discs you might not see the wobble, but they'll act more understable than intended at shorter distances. With slower discs they'll wobble, flip and turn into cut rollers.

Ok so when I try and throw forehand, and the disc wobbles terribly(flutters like mad) and the drive goes crazy, what do I need to change to get it to fly right? Change the disc or my arm speed? I cannot get a forehand throw to "fly". Or maybe I'm giving it OAT by my release?

***NEWBIE ALERT******
Another question for everyone, people keep talking about a disc "turning over" Could someone please explain in simple terms what this means? Surely you're not throwing a disc level and having it rotate in flight to an upside down position?

Thanks for shedding light on this.

[garublador]

I'm really far from a forehand expert, but you may want to try orienting your hand so that your palm is perpendicular to the ground rather than parallel with the ground for forehand shots. All the same stuff about maintaining shoulder orientation and matching it with the disc angle applies, too. That's probably the only useful advice I can give.

Turning over is when the disc turns past flat in the opposite direction of the fade (i.e. right for a RHBH throw, left for a RHFH throw). Understable discs tend to turn over when thrown flat.

[sidewinding]

Unless the Destroyer is flying well over 400' for you, it's more likey that you're throwing the disc less properly than more.

This statement has bothered me since I read it. Does it apply to all age groups, sexes, height, weight, fitness level, etc.?

[garublador]

This statement has bothered me since I read it. Does it apply to all age groups, sexes, height, weight, fitness level, etc.?Yep. That disc needs a lot of nose down and/or speed to turn over on a pure (OAT free) throw regardless of who's throwing it. If you're OK with the flaws in your form and the disc works, then that's OK. A vast majority of people who choose the super fast and/or overstable discs for forehand are OK with the flaws they have. They just want something that will fly opposite of their backhand at shorter distances. However, if you're looking to improve you're better off throwing different, aka slower, discs.

The easiest way to learn to throw a Destroyer >400' is to learn to throw a stable putter 250'-280', a stable mid 300'-320' and stable fairway drivers 350'-380'. Those will be more difficult to get to if you throw forehand. At that point it's just a matter of hitting the right line with a Destroyer.

In other words, super fast discs might get you a bit more D', but they won't help teach you how to throw farther and may screw up how well you can throw slower discs.

Those numbers above are actually close to a plateu that a vast majority of disc golfers who work on their form get to. If you're able to break that plateu you'll be throwing putters at least 300', mids at least 350' and fairway drivers near or over 400' depending on the disc.

[sidewinding]

Ok so when I try and throw forehand, and the disc wobbles terribly(flutters like mad) and the drive goes crazy, what do I need to change to get it to fly right? .

You need to add more spin. When you throw forehand You have to cock your wrist on the pull back and then flip your wrist forward on the release to put spin on the disc. The more spin the better. I don't know if you could put too much spin on a disc.