in search of a fading driver

[33tango]

(I'm new, so please correct terminology mistakes)

I'm looking for a disc that I can throw RHBH and get to fade to the right. I understand it's normal for RHBH drives to turn to the left at the end, but I've seen people throw (Understable? Overstable?) drives RHBH and get them to fade right at the end of the drive.

Is it the disc, or is it the throw technique?

Thanks,

John

[garublador]

Is it the disc, or is it the throw technique?It's both. The easiest way to get that shot is to throw a beat version of a stable driver in low end plastic (DX Gazelle, D Cyclone, DX Eagle-X). You'll have to put some off-axis torque on it to get the disc to turn over at the right time. It will not fade the same way that a disc fades to the left, though unless you do it just right. Even then it's a diffucult and risky shot (there's a chance it will turn over too early or flex out of the fade). If you need that type of flight path you're better off throwing forehand.

[DeafDiscGolfer]

Is it the disc, or is it the throw technique?


It's both. The easiest way to get that shot is to throw a beat version of a stable driver in low end plastic (DX Gazelle, D Cyclone, DX Eagle-X)...

True and also think about the disc's weights as well. It doesn't have to be DX mold thou, it can be either Champ or Star or any molds if you have any lying around. Lighter disc will make it easy to turn over and stay its direction longer if thrown correctly.

I was able to throw very beaten 172 Raging Inferno DT and it flips fast but with proper throwing technique (actually, just doing it at the correct release timing and angle..) and RIDT can achieve a long anhzyer drive and lands to the right.

Sidewinder and Monarch works well too as long the weights fits for you. Mine was 170 for Champ. Sidewinder and it was a bit harder for the disc to stay its flight path to the right but I noticed that it can turn right and then level out to stay straight and lands straight or a bit to the left. Not too bad...

Best to sum it up is to just practice with any beaten discs and try to turn the disc over to make it happen. Then you will know what discs and technique works best for you.

Good luck :cool:

[33tango]

It's both. The easiest way to get that shot is to throw a beat version of a stable driver in low end plastic (DX Gazelle, D Cyclone, DX Eagle-X). You'll have to put some off-axis torque on it to get the disc to turn over at the right time.

How do you put off axis torque on a disc? Should I run over my gazelle with my van? Is a beat version of a stable driver more stable or less stable? I've googled overstable and understable, but the DG definitions I've read only confuse me. I swear, I'm not an idiot! :D

An overstable disc has a tendency to fly more like a hyzer shot even if thrown level, because it will fade more.

An understable disc will have a tendency to fly more like an anhyzer shot even when thrown level, because it will turn over at lower speeds (relative to an overstable disc).

Ok so this sounds like I'm looking for an understable disc.

[33tango]

Best to sum it up is to just practice with any beaten discs and try to turn the disc over to make it happen.
Good luck :cool:

How do you try to turn the disc over? Throwing it faster? Slower?

I did accidently throw a long shot yesterday with my DX Gazelle that slowly glided and curved right at the end, but no idea what I did differently. Unfortunatly, the basket was to the left. :(

[garublador]

Three things get a disc to turn over: speed, nose down attitude and off-axis torque.

Here's a thread about off-axis torque:

http://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=846

The easiest ways to get the disc to turn over are to either roll your wrist over and/or finish on less of a hyzer angle than you threw on. It takes some practice to get right, but it's a really valueable tool.

It will get easier and easier to get your discs to do this as they beat in. As this happens you can add new DX Gazelles so you'll end up with several Gazelles in different stages of wear. Then you can choose which one you want depending on how easy you want it to turn and how much left fade you want at the end. The more you have the less use each one will see and the slower they will change.

I'd recommend going to a field and practice throwing your Gazelle (and other discs) on every sort of line. Get them all to fly hyzer, anhyzer (without fading), straight and 'S' curve. Not all of them will fly far on all lines. This will help you learn how to shape shots.

[33tango]

Thanks everyone for the information and advice!

[Jungle Tim]

Three things get a disc to turn over: speed, nose down attitude and off-axis torque.


I have read an article written by Dave D (although i now cant find it...) where he suggests that there is one more thing.

Snap / Spin.

Dave says that a throw with a good deal of snap, ie spin, will go straight for maybe 150-200ft and then suddenly change direction.

In my experience this is very true, i get this affect with a Beat star TeeRex, z Surge and a 3month old esp Comet. I have not much controll over this for the surge and teerex, but for hte comet i have learnt to get the right turn (and stay turned) jsut right. and adjusting the altitude will adjust the fade out form the drivers.

If you can find a disc that works for you like this you will effectivly get a fore hand from your backhand. if thats what your after.

[garublador]

I have read an article written by Dave D (although i now cant find it...) where he suggests that there is one more thing.

Snap / Spin.

Dave says that a throw with a good deal of snap, ie spin, will go straight for maybe 150-200ft and then suddenly change direction.I'm not familiar with the section of the article you're talking about, but "A good deal of snap" is relative. He my be talking about the ability to throw fairway drivers >400'.

Spin will have an effect on stability, but you have to change the rate of spin by a lot (more on that later) to get a noticable flight change. Increased angular momentum will make a disc more "stable" (as in resists any change in direction more) but the mass of a disc, and hense, the angular momentum of a disc, isn't horribly large compared to the aerodynamic forces, torque and the force you impart to get the disc to go forward.

Snap is a whole different beast. I'll bet you'll have a hard time getting 90% of disc golfers to give a clear definition and I'll bet you'll get many different defintions. The most useful definition I've heard is that snap is the combination of correct timing, mechanics and wrist extension/tendon bounce to maximize distance on a throw. If you're able to get it all right, you'll throw much farther even with a slower arm speed. If you actually get a lot of snap, the disc will fly differently than if you're just strong arming a disc the same distance. Snap dominated throws change from hyzer to flat rather suddenly. Strong-armed throws change from hyzer to flat gradually. This is probably due to a differene in spin, but it's more like doubling or tripling the spin rather than just getting incrementally more. I'd guess that most of the time when pepole say they're putting "more snap" on a throw they're actually chaning the amount and possibly direction of OAT they're imparting.

[JR Stengele]

I use a lot of valkyries and as they get beat up they are great for RHBH throwing. I tend to use heavier discs in star plastic or CE which is hard to find.

[Olorin]

You're looking for an understable disc that will anhyzer for you. It really depends on your arm speed which can be measured by how far you throw. What is your average drive on a flat open field?

I'm a low power thrower and discs that I use for anhyers are


Stingray
Monarch (but it dies left at the end due to the Champion plastic)

Here are some more factors that make a disc more understable so they fade right:


Plastic- Innova, in the same disc, from more to less stable is Champion--> Star--> Pro--> DX. (I'm not sure but I think the density of the plastic has a lot to do with this.)
Weight- lighter is more understable. The heavier you get the more stable.
Condition- the more a disc gets used and beat in the more understable it will be.

I'd look on the disc characteristic charts for the most understable discs and get them in the lightest weight you can in DX plastic (but they'll wear out quicker). They'll get more and more understable as you use them.

[adam423]

For right turning shots I use a beat up dx wolf. It turns a slow right hand the entire way when I release it flat. Also, my dx leopard is starting to turn right quite a bit, but it always fades back to straight at the end. Or, you could always just throw forehand...

[discflinger]

Sweet stache, Adam. Does it get in the way when you throw or does it help you gauge the wind?

[adam423]

It also serves a balance mechanism and I use it to aim with. Line up with the target using my peripheral vision, instant ace.

[Jungle Tim]

Snap is a whole different beast. I'll bet you'll have a hard time getting 90% of disc golfers to give a clear definition and I'll bet you'll get many different defintions. The most useful definition I've heard is that snap is the combination of correct timing, mechanics and wrist extension/tendon bounce to maximize distance on a throw. If you're able to get it all right, you'll throw much farther even with a slower arm speed. If you actually get a lot of snap, the disc will fly differently than if you're just strong arming a disc the same distance. Snap dominated throws change from hyzer to flat rather suddenly. Strong-armed throws change from hyzer to flat gradually. This is probably due to a differene in spin, but it's more like doubling or tripling the spin rather than just getting incrementally more. I'd guess that most of the time when pepole say they're putting "more snap" on a throw they're actually chaning the amount and possibly direction of OAT they're imparting.

I think then its Snap that Dave D was talking about -- still cant find the article --
when you say turnign from hyzer to flat, it can be from flat to anhyzer too? or is tha tmore likely OAT? This is the sort of thing that i can get from my comet and surge, but i definatly dont throw fairway drivers 400ft!
Also how quick is quick, when it flips are should it be a bit like a switch. im interested to know as occasionally i do put OAT on and turn my champ teebird, but its a slow turn over, i think!

[33tango]

What is your average drive on a flat open field?


200-225 feet :(

[33tango]

For right turning shots I use a beat up dx wolf. It turns a slow right hand the entire way when I release it flat. Also, my dx leopard is starting to turn right quite a bit, but it always fades back to straight at the end. Or, you could always just throw forehand...

Throwing forehand puts a painful of strain on my knees and ankles. :( I'd throw forehand if I could manage without walking away from a round in pain.

[adam423]

Throwing forehand puts a painful of strain on my knees and ankles. :( I'd throw forehand if I could manage without walking away from a round in pain.

I can only throw about 225 backhand too. Forehand I can get maybe 200, but it feels awkward most of the time, so I prefer backhand. However, when I do throw forehand, its mostly just my arm doing the work, I haven't figured out how to get the rest of my body into it. Maybe you should just try throwing like that, so it wouldn't put too much strain on anything. I think of it like skipping a rock, only quicker. Or maybe snapping a wet towel.

Also, I have to make an addendum onto my previous statement. The wolf, if given enough height, will eventually turn back left, but if you keep it low, or you're not throwing down a hill or something, it stays right.

[Jimb]

My DX Stingray went right when new without any breaking in period. My DX Loepard used to go straight and now that it's really broken in it goes right like crazy.

And my Champion Sidewinder is my long distance right turn disc now that I understand it a little better. Have to be careful not to throw rollers accidentally, though.

Does this make sense?

[Midnightbiker]

If you are looking for a good right turning disc, get a DX Stingray. Get one used if you can. The more beat the better. Those things turn right and just keep going.

I also used to throw a 146 DX Viking that was really beat, and it turning right very nicely also.

[chrishysell]

You could easily go the other route and learn to throw a forehand. That way you wouldn't need as many discs. An overstable disc goes left backhand and right forehand.

[garublador]

when you say turnign from hyzer to flat, it can be from flat to anhyzer too? or is tha tmore likely OAT? This is the sort of thing that i can get from my comet and surge, but i definatly dont throw fairway drivers 400ft!
Also how quick is quick, when it flips are should it be a bit like a switch. im interested to know as occasionally i do put OAT on and turn my champ teebird, but its a slow turn over, i think!I'm referencing the last paragraph of this article:

http://www.discgolfreview.com/resources/articles/bentelbow2.shtml

The whole article is based around increasing "snap." Keep in mind that some things in that article aren't 100% correct, but most of the big ideas and methods to gain snap are all valid.

It's sort of independent of OAT. People with big snap use OAT to get disc to turn, too. If you draw a line representing the flight path of the disc and the transitions have rounded courners, it's speed dominated, if it looks like straight lines connected at hard angles, it's snap dominated. In other words, it's pretty sudden. Really it's more of an indicator of lots of snap rather than a goal to shoot for. Other things, like slower disc going much farther than they had before, will happen as well. I've only had it happen a couple of times, normally when practicing in a field. I'll get out to pick up my discs and find a mid or putter sitting with my drivers or a fariway driver 30' past all my other discs.

[brokenfixed]

yeah man if forehand is hurting you more than backhand you might need to rethink your technique. Not that Im an expert at all, I just know that forehand takes very little effort to get almost the same distance as a backhand throw.

[TunaSled]

i've been getting a Dicraft Z Glide to turn over perfectly. Throw it fast and flat, the heavier the more gradual the fade. I can get my 175 ZG to 'S' nicely most of the time lately. My 172 will continue to fade, but not turn over hard enough to roll.

[sir chingalot]

Man ive been ripping a esp comet and hangin it to the right for a good 300ft. try a lil hyzer to just about none and give it a tug! Its a straight flyer but u put a lil extra on it and watch it fade all the way to the right. might lay down flat depending on how much u put on it. i love it!! otherwise try a 165 monarch champ and hammer on it youll see that thing turn over awesome!! thats my go to driver!! i carry 2 diff wieghts depending on how much fade i want. Good luck

[Midnightbiker]

Are we talking about fadeing right or left? If you want to fade left, I would suggest either a Banshee or a SOLF ( Sirius Orion Left Fade)

[33tango]

Right

[Midnightbiker]

If you want a good right turning disc, I would say a beat Stingray or a Stratus. I personally use a beat Avenger SS.

[DannyM]

Are we talking about fadeing right or left? If you want to fade left, I would suggest either a Banshee or a SOLF ( Sirius Orion Left Fade)

I didn't think anyone else threw the SOLF...Man do I love that disc!!!!! I throw a 165g, when I release it rhbh throwing with some anny, it will flip over slightly...straighten up, and fly for a while, and then at the end of the flight, cut HARD left...predictably. Gives you a type of S curve flight, with good predictable distance. Also fights the wind fairly well being "stable". Every time I pull it out in a tourney and make a great shot with it I get asked what that was and hardly anyone has heard of it.....kinda like my "secret weapon"...:cool:

[Midnightbiker]

I actually won mine at my first tournament during the ring of fire. It has a really cool custom Texas stamp on it.

[DannyM]

I won mine as well.....didn't see that it was the fade disc, thought it was the straight version when I picked it up. When I first threw it I was disappointed that it turned so fast. So after LOOKING at the stamp, I realized it was overstable. So, after playing around with it in a field, I found that it made an excellent "s" turn driver!

[Midnightbiker]

I won mine as well.....didn't see that it was the fade disc, thought it was the straight version when I picked it up. When I first threw it I was disappointed that it turned so fast. So after LOOKING at the stamp, I realized it was overstable. So, after playing around with it in a field, I found that it made an excellent "s" turn driver!

That is does.

[ERicJ]

SOLF ( Sirius Orion Left Fade)
The "L" is "Long", not "Left".

http://golfdisc.com/orionlf.shtml

ERic