Why did osbogosly give Manor a 1/2 disc rating?

[sidewinding]

Read this (http://www.dgcoursereview.com/reviews.php?id=2645&page=1&mode=rev#14700) osbogosly's review of East Metro Park in Manor and tell me why he gave it a 1/2 disc rating. Manor is arguably the best course in the Austin Area. It has recieved thirteen 4.5 disc ratings, one 5 disc rating, and two 4 disc ratings and one of those was from before the signs were installed. Why would someone with over 25 years experience and is a course designer himself of this course (http://www.dgcoursereview.com/reviews.php?id=2827&page=1&mode=rev#11542) give such a great course such a low review?

[sidewinding]

Bevo, who happens to be a gold level trusted reviewer, gave osbogosly's course a 2.5 rating. One of the courses listed in Bevo's favorites is East Metro Park. Could it be tit for tat payback? You gave my course a bad review so I'll give one of your favorites a bad review?

[heelboycraig]

The review is from August and you're just bringing it up now?

[Terry C]

Dosent look like "tunnel shot holes" to me. Theres much more heavily wooded courses ive seen out there, The only 1/2 disc review ive ever given was for a pole course, in the heart of the ghetto, filled with crackheads and gang bangers with no tee pads and a horrible layout. I would never give a half decent course a 1/2 disc rating, even if I hated it. Sounds like someone got their feelings hurt and wanted to snap back at someone for sure.

[Donovan]

Only the reviewer can answer this, so I will not vote for now and just . . . :popcorn:

[DiscChucker]

That could be the case. In case you haven't read his perspective on his review of East Metro, it's located within this thread:

http://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?p=139167#post139167

Specifically, post #53:

http://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showpost.php?p=139167&postcount=53

My favorite part is when he says, "If you guys knew anything at all about the history of disc golf in Austin, You would understand my review of east metro. I was throwing discs before you were born." Oh brother! :rolleyes: Well gives us a history lesson gramps!

My thing is, if he doesn't like East Metro, fine. But at least have the balls to write a review with some substance to back up his perspective. His review was weak at best. I've never played East Metro so I can't express an opinion as to whether or not it's a good course or not. As someone who hasn't seen the course, his review did NOTHING to paint a picture of what to expect at the course.

So yeah, he may have been dominating the scene back in the day before some of us were born or when we were roaming around the house in diapers, but what the hell does that have to do with anything. It proves he's a closed minded old fart. Times change. Technology advances. Course expectations of today are not what they were from yesteryear. If he wants to dwell on the game from the past, then it sounds to me like he needs to dig up the old Wham-O and stick to Zilker Park.

East Metro may not be a good course but at least he could substantiate his perspective with a halfway decent review.

[Adam Schneider]

Looks like a fun course. Some of those tight fairways might be frustrating, sure, but there's no way a course with dual pads, nice signs, and that level of challenge would ever rate below 3 in my book.

[Terry C]

I absolutely hated a course I played over the summer, I wrote a lengthy review of what I did and didnt like about the course, 95% of my review is cons for this course, but in the end i gave it a 2.5 disc review becouse it had potential and it was worthy of a 2.5, I lost a disc and got poison ivy there, and my bad attitude about the experience could have caused me to give it a 1/2 disc review but I always try to be fair when I review ALL courses, even the ones I dont like.

[DiscChucker]

I absolutely hated a course I played over the summer, I wrote a lengthy review of what I did and didnt like about the course, 95% of my review is cons for this course, but in the end i gave it a 2.5 disc review becouse it had potential and it was worthy of a 2.5, I lost a disc and got poison ivy there, and my bad attitude about the experience could have caused me to give it a 1/2 disc review but I always try to be fair when I review ALL courses, even the ones I dont like.

You have provided the perfect example of what I think is a fair reviewer. There's absolutely nothing wrong with dishing out a long list cons if the reviewer felt they were justified. Your example shows how even though you hated the course, you had enough respect for the rest of the DGCR community to put in the effort to flesh it out and give it your honest thoughts.

[sidewinding]

My favorite part is when he says, "If you guys knew anything at all about the history of disc golf in Austin, You would understand my review of east metro.

It's sounding more and more like bad blood between this guy and Houck design and or Mike Olse is the reason for the unfair review.

[Terry C]

By the way the course im refering to is Hammond Hill and the reviews go from 1 disc to 5 discs, Goes to show some idiots dont know what the hell their doing when they review a course. You would have to be a super idiot or newbie beginner who has played like 1-2 courses to give this course a five disc review, Okay here we go, theres no tee pads, the tees are rutty, usually muddy and full of holes. theres no signs, they dont mow or trim anything in that park, not even the fairways. How can it be a five with flip city or tons of way way better courses that knock this one in the dirt?? Come on, Giving a crappy course a 5 disc review is just as bad as giving a descent course a 1/2 disc review. Those 5 star reviews of this course are horrible, id be pissed off if I went there trusting a 5 star reviewer for sure. I see poor reviewing works both ways.

[sidewinding]

The review is from August and you're just bringing it up now?

I've been busy playing disc golf. Now it's cold, rainy, and foggy so I'm trolling DGCR and looking for trouble. :)

[Donovan]

After reading his other reviews, it sounds like he hates mandos, tight fairways, any risk/reward places where a disc can be lost, water in play in general, and does not like roads near by. He is not a fan of holes that are not 3-able. He complains about whether a course should even be at the location even when there is little sign of hurting people or damaging anything.

After a careful, non-bias, yet childish, and amateurish short psycho-analysis of only 3 (2 of which are very short) reviews...he sounds very unhappy with disc golf courses in general.

I have no right to even write this post, but ... :p

[Donovan]

:eek: OOPS! I was supposed to just sit here and :popcorn:

;)

[Terry C]

After reading his other reviews, it sounds like he hates mandos, tight fairways, any risk/reward places where a disc can be lost, water in play in general, and does not like roads near by. He is not a fan of holes that are not 3-able. He complains about whether a course should even be at the location even when there is little sign of hurting people or damaging anything.

After a careful, non-bias, yet childish, and amateurish short psycho-analysis of only 3 (2 of which are very short) reviews...he sounds very unhappy with disc golf courses in general.

I have no right to even write this post, but ... :p

Oh you have the right and obligation to go after and get this guy for what he did to us and our beloved web site!! :D

[heelboycraig]

Here is the anti-osbogosly review (http://www.dgcoursereview.com/reviews.php?id=3036&page=1&mode=rev#17418). I've said this before, if there was a more in-depth review system (probably not to this extreme), it would help get more objective reviews and not the "1/2 star - course is too hard" type of review. Here's an excerpt of GRodney's great, detailed review (http://www.dgcoursereview.com/reviews.php?id=3036&page=1&mode=rev#17418) for Elon in Charlotte. He even help work on the course, and still runs events there, yet still gave an objective examination of the course.

================
Shot Shape (3/5) - Reasonably good mix of left-turn, right-turn, straight, and even a couple "thrower's choice" holes with multiple fairways in the woods. Most shapes are fairly tame, with no huge curves required.
Tight v Open Variety (4/5) - Good mix. 11 open-ish and 7 woods holes. The fairly open ones border woods, and have a few mature trees to negotiate. The woods holes have a good mix of fairway widths.
Shot Length Variety (3/5) - Overall a really short course from the shorts, and pretty short from the longs, but still a good mix of shot length for the
intended skill levels. Short tees have 5 shots under 160 feet, but only 3 over 230 feet. Long tees have 3 shots under 180 feet, and 4 shots over 280 feet.
Elevation (3/5) - Holes 9,10,17,18 have a significant, but not huge, elevation change. Holes 2,3,14,15(short),16 have enough elevation that you notice it.
Layout/Flow (3/5) - Course loops back after 3 holes and 6 holes, and can be played as 9-holer by playing 1-7,17,18. Starts and ends near the parking lot. A couple road crossing aren't ideal but aren't bad. A couple spots you could make a wrong turn if you don't pay attention and don't have a map.
Water Shots (1/5) - Really only 1 water shot from the short tees, and that's behind the pin, not throwing over water. From the long tees, 1 shot over water and 1 hole where you can kick into water.
Multi-Shot Holes (0/5) - For the intended skill level (novices/kids), some holes are obviously multi-shot. But for the vast majority of "regular" players, every hole is reachable on the drive.


Basics (3.5/5)
===========
Number of Holes (5/5) - 18 holes.
Tee Signs (3/5) - Each sign has hole number, distance, and par. As of Dec 2009, tee signs only on the short tees. Unique tee signs - contain art created by
local school kids. Neat.
Tee Pads (4/5) - Concrete, brushed surface. Maybe just a tad shorter than perfect, but doesn't impact you much.
Targets (4/5) - DISCatchers. A couple are slightly bent.
Map & Scorecard (4/5) - Map and Scorecard available on dgcoursereview and on course website.
Multiple Configs (2/5) - Two complete sets of tees. The two sets are different enough to be suitable for different skill levels.


General (3.5/5)
===========
Maintenance (3/5) - Pretty good maintenance. Mowing is kept up. A few muddy spots in rainy times. A little trash. A few stumps.
Lost Disc Potential (4/5) - Not likely to lose a disc. Only one or two water shots, and not too much underbrush.
Shared Use (4/5) - Almost exclusively used for disc golf. Only an occasional walker or dog-walker in the woods.
Beauty (3/5) - Great middle-age forest. The open areas are less appealing. The whole woodsy setting is pretty neat, but not too many real stunning views.


Amenities (1/3)
============
Benches (0/3) - None on the course. A picnic table at the start of the course.
Trash Cans (1/3) - Three trash cans available, with one serving two spots (holes 9 and 16).
Restrooms (1/3) - Available in the Rec Center when it is open.
Practice Facilities (1/3) - Practice basket on the edge of the parking lot.
Message Board (1/3) - Nice message board, but not used much.



Overall (57/100) == C == (3/5)

[optidiscic]

This is so funny....I love good fun par 3 courses just like this guy buuuut!...I can't comment too much because I have not played the courses. Seems his .5 should be taken off the site...TIMG has done this b4 when enough people draw attention to a suspicious and out of range review. I would be very upset if my course had a shot at top 20 rated and was being dragged down by a pissed off reviewer like this.

[skurf]

I think what might be the biggest factor is his attitude in general. He's an old codger set in his ways and believes that his opinion is the only valid one. If someone likes tunnel shots, blind holes, long holes, or likes to be challenged...well, they're just wrong and there ain't no two ways about it.

[DiscChucker]

I think what might be the biggest factor is his attitude in general. He's an old codger set in his ways and believes that his opinion is the only valid one. If someone likes tunnel shots, blind holes, long holes, or likes to be challenged...well, they're just wrong and there ain't no two ways about it.

That's right you little whipper snapper! You got a problem with it? :)

[Scoot_er]

This is so funny....I love good fun par 3 courses just like this guy buuuut!...I can't comment too much because I have not played the courses. Seems his .5 should be taken off the site...TIMG has done this b4 when enough people draw attention to a suspicious and out of range review. I would be very upset if my course had a shot at top 20 rated and was being dragged down by a pissed off reviewer like this.

Would be a 4.5 without that review which is retarded. Hopefully it will get taken down and if not I might have to go and rate it a 5.:)

Anyway its nice to see the course get good reviews considering the difficulty which like in this review can turn players off who like to shoot under "Par 3". This course can beat anyone's azz and my 1st time there my buddy rated 50pts lower beat me just because it is that brutal when you don't know what to expect.

Anyway that guy is a douche and I'm sure I wouldn't be surprised if I found out who he was.

[harr0140]

I have another example of this strange occurrence. Lamb's Creek at Pioneer Grill http://www.dgcoursereview.com/reviews.php?id=2445&mode=rev has three reviews with an overall rating of 3. One guy gave it a zero (with 26 years of experience), even after a Gold TR rated it a 5. Sure everyone has their own opinions, but it almost seems impossible for someone to give a 5 to a course and another person give it a zero. The funny thing is both people listed the course played as 7/4/2008, so it couldnt have been a simple misunderstanding, they played it the same day and under the same conditions. Then a third person have it a 4.5 (although he has only played and reviewed 1 course for an average of 3. I hope to get there next weekend if the snow isn't too bad up there and see what I think of it. Maybe this is another one that needs to be examined.

[harr0140]

Here is the anti-osbogosly review (http://www.dgcoursereview.com/reviews.php?id=3036&page=1&mode=rev#17418). I've said this before, if there was a more in-depth review system (probably not to this extreme), it would help get more objective reviews and not the "1/2 star - course is too hard" type of review. Here's an excerpt of GRodney's great, detailed review (http://www.dgcoursereview.com/reviews.php?id=3036&page=1&mode=rev#17418) for Elon in Charlotte. He even help work on the course, and still runs events there, yet still gave an objective examination of the course.

================
Shot Shape (3/5) - Reasonably good mix of left-turn, right-turn, straight, and even a couple "thrower's choice" holes with multiple fairways in the woods. Most shapes are fairly tame, with no huge curves required.
Tight v Open Variety (4/5) - Good mix. 11 open-ish and 7 woods holes. The fairly open ones border woods, and have a few mature trees to negotiate. The woods holes have a good mix of fairway widths.
Shot Length Variety (3/5) - Overall a really short course from the shorts, and pretty short from the longs, but still a good mix of shot length for the
intended skill levels. Short tees have 5 shots under 160 feet, but only 3 over 230 feet. Long tees have 3 shots under 180 feet, and 4 shots over 280 feet.
Elevation (3/5) - Holes 9,10,17,18 have a significant, but not huge, elevation change. Holes 2,3,14,15(short),16 have enough elevation that you notice it.
Layout/Flow (3/5) - Course loops back after 3 holes and 6 holes, and can be played as 9-holer by playing 1-7,17,18. Starts and ends near the parking lot. A couple road crossing aren't ideal but aren't bad. A couple spots you could make a wrong turn if you don't pay attention and don't have a map.
Water Shots (1/5) - Really only 1 water shot from the short tees, and that's behind the pin, not throwing over water. From the long tees, 1 shot over water and 1 hole where you can kick into water.
Multi-Shot Holes (0/5) - For the intended skill level (novices/kids), some holes are obviously multi-shot. But for the vast majority of "regular" players, every hole is reachable on the drive.


Basics (3.5/5)
===========
Number of Holes (5/5) - 18 holes.
Tee Signs (3/5) - Each sign has hole number, distance, and par. As of Dec 2009, tee signs only on the short tees. Unique tee signs - contain art created by
local school kids. Neat.
Tee Pads (4/5) - Concrete, brushed surface. Maybe just a tad shorter than perfect, but doesn't impact you much.
Targets (4/5) - DISCatchers. A couple are slightly bent.
Map & Scorecard (4/5) - Map and Scorecard available on dgcoursereview and on course website.
Multiple Configs (2/5) - Two complete sets of tees. The two sets are different enough to be suitable for different skill levels.


General (3.5/5)
===========
Maintenance (3/5) - Pretty good maintenance. Mowing is kept up. A few muddy spots in rainy times. A little trash. A few stumps.
Lost Disc Potential (4/5) - Not likely to lose a disc. Only one or two water shots, and not too much underbrush.
Shared Use (4/5) - Almost exclusively used for disc golf. Only an occasional walker or dog-walker in the woods.
Beauty (3/5) - Great middle-age forest. The open areas are less appealing. The whole woodsy setting is pretty neat, but not too many real stunning views.


Amenities (1/3)
============
Benches (0/3) - None on the course. A picnic table at the start of the course.
Trash Cans (1/3) - Three trash cans available, with one serving two spots (holes 9 and 16).
Restrooms (1/3) - Available in the Rec Center when it is open.
Practice Facilities (1/3) - Practice basket on the edge of the parking lot.
Message Board (1/3) - Nice message board, but not used much.



Overall (57/100) == C == (3/5)

I have found a new way to review, that is awesome. Preprint the form blank and fill it out as I play! Awesome way of putting a true value on a course.

[prerube]

I vote vendetta, I also vote that the reviewer will never read this thread

[Roc1Time]

Where is "too be a dumb ass?" in the poll? Not to be a prick but I have seen the same thing with him on other courses except for his. I guess that if you have to play golf and become a better goler it doesnt fit his style of play. Manor is a great course and is one of my favorites in the state. Live Oak Gold moved it down a notch but it still is in the top 5 of the state for sure. Havent made it to his course yet but plan on doing it soon and cant wait. I think that I review courses pretty even and want to see what I think. But for sure East Metro is worth every penny and then some!!!

[prerube]

Here is the anti-osbogosly review (http://www.dgcoursereview.com/reviews.php?id=3036&page=1&mode=rev#17418). I've said this before, if there was a more in-depth review system (probably not to this extreme), it would help get more objective reviews and not the "1/2 star - course is too hard" type of review. Here's an excerpt of GRodney's great, detailed review (http://www.dgcoursereview.com/reviews.php?id=3036&page=1&mode=rev#17418) for Elon in Charlotte. He even help work on the course, and still runs events there, yet still gave an objective examination of the course.

================
Shot Shape (3/5) - Reasonably good mix of left-turn, right-turn, straight, and even a couple "thrower's choice" holes with multiple fairways in the woods. Most shapes are fairly tame, with no huge curves required.
Tight v Open Variety (4/5) - Good mix. 11 open-ish and 7 woods holes. The fairly open ones border woods, and have a few mature trees to negotiate. The woods holes have a good mix of fairway widths.
Shot Length Variety (3/5) - Overall a really short course from the shorts, and pretty short from the longs, but still a good mix of shot length for the
intended skill levels. Short tees have 5 shots under 160 feet, but only 3 over 230 feet. Long tees have 3 shots under 180 feet, and 4 shots over 280 feet.
Elevation (3/5) - Holes 9,10,17,18 have a significant, but not huge, elevation change. Holes 2,3,14,15(short),16 have enough elevation that you notice it.
Layout/Flow (3/5) - Course loops back after 3 holes and 6 holes, and can be played as 9-holer by playing 1-7,17,18. Starts and ends near the parking lot. A couple road crossing aren't ideal but aren't bad. A couple spots you could make a wrong turn if you don't pay attention and don't have a map.
Water Shots (1/5) - Really only 1 water shot from the short tees, and that's behind the pin, not throwing over water. From the long tees, 1 shot over water and 1 hole where you can kick into water.
Multi-Shot Holes (0/5) - For the intended skill level (novices/kids), some holes are obviously multi-shot. But for the vast majority of "regular" players, every hole is reachable on the drive.


Basics (3.5/5)
===========
Number of Holes (5/5) - 18 holes.
Tee Signs (3/5) - Each sign has hole number, distance, and par. As of Dec 2009, tee signs only on the short tees. Unique tee signs - contain art created by
local school kids. Neat.
Tee Pads (4/5) - Concrete, brushed surface. Maybe just a tad shorter than perfect, but doesn't impact you much.
Targets (4/5) - DISCatchers. A couple are slightly bent.
Map & Scorecard (4/5) - Map and Scorecard available on dgcoursereview and on course website.
Multiple Configs (2/5) - Two complete sets of tees. The two sets are different enough to be suitable for different skill levels.


General (3.5/5)
===========
Maintenance (3/5) - Pretty good maintenance. Mowing is kept up. A few muddy spots in rainy times. A little trash. A few stumps.
Lost Disc Potential (4/5) - Not likely to lose a disc. Only one or two water shots, and not too much underbrush.
Shared Use (4/5) - Almost exclusively used for disc golf. Only an occasional walker or dog-walker in the woods.
Beauty (3/5) - Great middle-age forest. The open areas are less appealing. The whole woodsy setting is pretty neat, but not too many real stunning views.


Amenities (1/3)
============
Benches (0/3) - None on the course. A picnic table at the start of the course.
Trash Cans (1/3) - Three trash cans available, with one serving two spots (holes 9 and 16).
Restrooms (1/3) - Available in the Rec Center when it is open.
Practice Facilities (1/3) - Practice basket on the edge of the parking lot.
Message Board (1/3) - Nice message board, but not used much.



Overall (57/100) == C == (3/5)

Did Dave242 get a new name?

[tallpaul]

I have another example of this strange occurrence. Lamb's Creek at Pioneer Grill http://www.dgcoursereview.com/review...=2445&mode=rev has three reviews with an overall rating of 3. One guy gave it a zero (with 26 years of experience), even after a Gold TR rated it a 5. Sure everyone has their own opinions, but it almost seems impossible for someone to give a 5 to a course and another person give it a zero. The funny thing is both people listed the course played as 7/4/2008, so it couldnt have been a simple misunderstanding, they played it the same day and under the same conditions. Then a third person have it a 4.5 (although he has only played and reviewed 1 course for an average of 3. I hope to get there next weekend if the snow isn't too bad up there and see what I think of it. Maybe this is another one that needs to be examined.
This course is fairly crazy to rate for one thing. I was there last weekend, and still have not put up a review....and it's my third trip there. I am probably going to give it a 3, which is about the highest I ever give a nine hole course. There are two holes there that require your shot to go over lambs creek for 90=% of the shot, to try and find some dry land at the end. There are also fallaway fairway greens and fairways to lambs creek on another 4 holes. Besides this, the very low number reviewer legitimately noted that you need to be a billy goat simply to walk and play the course. How they are getting away with giving you good beer and asking you to walk around that course without expecting major danger is something else. With all that said, the course itself, apart from being tough to keep out of the creek, is short. To a certain extent, it relies on gimmicks to make it special. They also have a very interesting putting game; four or five basket set up that is wired with nighttime lights. This area is also on a very precarious hillside area. I see I've darn near written a review on this course here. Point is; this course could be very frustrating to a player lacking in shot making skills. You need your best game just to stay dry. So, I can understand his frustration. On the other hand, while the course is very interesting in it's own way and I can understand the five enthusiasm, it isn't all that either. In reality, it's a 3 or a 3.5 at best. But, both of these views have their justification. As a person reading the reviews and doing your research, you simply need to read all each has to say and form an opinion. I will go and post a review on this tonight.

[prerube]

The course ratings are affected by the top courses race. People drop ratings to raise the nearby local courses, or try to get their fav in the top 10.
Am I wrong TomJulio? :)

[REDARMY]

That could be the case. In case you haven't read his perspective on his review of East Metro, it's located within this thread:

http://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?p=139167#post139167

Specifically, post #53:

http://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showpost.php?p=139167&postcount=53East Metro may not be a good course but at least he could substantiate his perspective with a halfway decent review.

bullseye

[grodney]

heelboycraig said:
"I've said this before, if there was a more in-depth review system (probably not to this extreme)"

Sometimes I think it'd be nice to have everybody enter 3 or 4 numbers, like for Design, Basics, General, Amenities, and have the site do the math for the overall score. But, a single number mostly works. And I completely agree that 22 items is overkill!



harr0140 said:
"I have found a new way to review, that is awesome. Preprint the form blank and fill it out as I play! Awesome way of putting a true value on a course."

Here's a form. It's several years old, and I would change a few things today, but it's reasonably close. I was just bored, so I dug it out and went with it for Elon Short Course.
http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=tO0FIHKvnDQNwFvOCUxclrg&output=html


prerube said:
"Did Dave242 get a new name?"

Ha ha, that's funny. I actually know Dave from when he lived here in Charlotte. And, yeah, we have a few things in common.

[prerube]

heelboycraig said:
prerube said:
"Did Dave242 get a new name?"

Ha ha, that's funny. I actually know Dave from when he lived here in Charlotte. And, yeah, we have a few things in common.

I usually don't like course "assessments" When grading the course like a 3rd grader on his science project, it gives too many subjective variables instead of one big subjective rating. I just like one nice paragraph, not a sentence, not a novel. It's just my preference.

But for a new guy (to this site), your review was very well thought out an thourough. Nice!:clap:

[judson]

I guess it depends on what you consider a review to be: if you liked the course, disliked the course or take into consideration what the course's benifit is to the disc golf community.
If courses appear to be "lucky" shot after shot, maybe the sport moves in the direction of how to play holes like that with more accuracy and more resiliant plastics. If you only carry DX pr pro plastics well a course with "lucky" shots will get expensive or you will get better at it or upgrade to plastic better suited to hitting trees. Most players have no idea how much work goes into a course from start to finish or the fact that a course is never finished. maintaining a course is never finished.

[mmyersdisc]

is he ever going to respond to this thread or not?

[giles]

When Manor was still a new course, Houke said it was the best course in Texas.

[sidewinding]

When Manor was still a new course, Houke said it was the best course in Texas.

Probably because it's one of the few courses where the old cliche "You'll need every shot in your bag" is actually true.

[Terry C]

is he ever going to respond to this thread or not?

He's only reviewed 3 courses, and amazingly enough he gives his course that he designed a 4 1/2 star rating, objective? No becouse his rating is the highest his course has gotten by anybody. Do I smell turd brownies cookin in the oven????

[sloppydisc]

Maybe this should be blended with the 'You might be a douchebag' thread. I have played courses that I didn't like or couldn't handle, but that didn't make them bad courses. It just means I won't play them all the time. People need to lighten up. Smile, be happy, be nice.

[mmyersdisc]

He's only reviewed 3 courses, and amazingly enough he gives his course that he designed a 4 1/2 star rating, objective? No becouse his rating is the highest his course has gotten by anybody. Do I smell turd brownies cookin in the oven????

hes responded in other threads, so I know he is a somewhat active forum troll....just wondering why he isn't manning up and explaining himself!

[sidewinding]

I started this thread because I am curious what it would take to cause a disc golf course designer with 27 years experience to pull such a childish stunt.

[Terry C]

I started this thread because I am curious what it would take to cause a disc golf course designer with 27 years experience to pull such a childish stunt.

Yeah you resurected it from the grave and it took off, and im wondering the same thing you are...:\

[sidewinding]

Yesterday my review of Manor had 10 :thmbup: and 0 :thmbdown:. Now it has 10 :thmbup: and 1 :thmbdown:.

Interesting!

[Terry C]

see what you did now?? He's gonna give a thumbs down to all your reviews cause you hurt his feelings lol :wall::D

[cydisc]

I started this thread because I am curious what it would take to cause a disc golf course designer with 27 years experience to pull such a childish stunt.

Age and experience don't always = maturity.

[mmyersdisc]

Age and experience don't always = maturity.

amen brotha!!! but they ALWAYS expect respect....amiright? :thmbdown:

[skurf]

And while we're on the topic of erroneous Austin area course reviews, I've gotta give a shout out to cc0049 for reviewing/rating Circle C (http://www.dgcoursereview.com/reviews.php?id=542&mode=rev&page=3&sort=&tronly=) after playing only 5 holes. This also makes me wonder if osbogosly actually played all of Manor and how many reviews are actually out there where someone plays a few holes and then leaves for one reason or another. Speaking of which, I reviewed Old Settler's without realizing there were 9 althernate tees and have heard that those are some of the best holes on the course. I should probably see about having that review removed since my review is not representative of the entire course, which is what I think cc0049 should do with his Circle C review.

[Trashthrasher]

Maybe he has E.D.

[prerube]

Course designers should not be allowed to review their courses. Timber did not review Giles Run or Bluemont

[FRIZZLE TOSSLER]

I do remember reading his review of Manor the day he posted it & being utterly shocked (and a little mad... to be honest). I proceeded to send him a PM to see where he was coming from and he was very upfront in his opinions. He mentioned that he has had friendly disagreements w/ Olse & Houck over course design. No worries. Everyone has their own opinion. He even gave me his phone # and told me to call him if I was ever in Brady again which I thought was pretty cool of him. He also mentioned that he was very involved in the installation & upkeep of Bartholomew back in the 80's. From the info I can gather Bart was the 1st DG course installed in TX. Props to him for that. I love Bart and live just 2 blocks away.

I have gotten to play his course in Brady a few months ago and it's a decent little course w/ some real sweet custom-made baskets w/ good placement. He did a great job w/ the available land. It is no where near the challenge (or fun, IMHO) of a course like Manor but still definately worth playing if any of you are ever in Brady, TX. (Manor is one of my top 3 favorite courses in the greater Austin area... I tend to favor the more technical, challenging courses) I was lucky and played his course on a real windy day which helped increase the challenge and fun for me.

Oddly enough, I happened to be passing through Brady for work yesterday (the same day this thread was started... unknown to me until now) and gave him a call to see if he wanted toss a few. His wife answered and let me know that he was out of town. She was very nice and friendly.

Let's try to remember that we all have different opinions. More & more often these forums are turning into flame wars over differing opinions. People calling each other douch bags and such... even attacking other people's character & making vast assumptions and generalizations. IMHO, this is the best DG site on the planet. Let's try to keep it that way.

Oh, and also try to remember that not everyone is on this site everyday. I'm pretty sure if osbogosly sees this thread he will respond.

Oh and maybe next time instead of calling someone out publically, you could try to send him/her a PM 1st....

Just my two (long) pennies. :D

[DGtourist]

I usually don't like course "assessments" When grading the course like a 3rd grader on his science project, it gives too many subjective variables instead of one big subjective rating. I just like one nice paragraph, not a sentence, not a novel. It's just my preference.

But for a new guy (to this site), your review was very well thought out an thourough. Nice!:clap:

werd

[mashnut]

Course designers should not be allowed to review their courses. Timber did not review Giles Run or Bluemont

I don't see why a course designer shouldn't review their own course. They probably have insights about the course you'd never get otherwise, and a totally different perspective from anyone else writing reviews about the course. Whether or not they give it the same rating as others who play the course, I think it's definitely cool to be able to read designers' thoughts when looking at new courses to play.

[giles]

And while we're on the topic of erroneous Austin area course reviews, I've gotta give a shout out to cc0049 for reviewing/rating Circle C (http://www.dgcoursereview.com/reviews.php?id=542&mode=rev&page=3&sort=&tronly=) after playing only 5 holes. I should probably see about having that review removed since my review is not representative of the entire course, which is what I think cc0049 should do with his Circle C review.

It looks to me like the course should have been retired and a new page started after the redesign. I belive that to be TimG's way of avoiding this problem.

[Donovan]

I do remember reading his review of Manor the day he posted it & being utterly shocked (and a little mad... to be honest). I proceeded to send him a PM to see where he was coming from and he was very upfront in his opinions. He mentioned that he has had friendly disagreements w/ Olse & Houck over course design. No worries. Everyone has their own opinion. He even gave me his phone # and told me to call him if I was ever in Brady again which I thought was pretty cool of him. He also mentioned that he was very involved in the installation & upkeep of Bartholomew back in the 80's. From the info I can gather Bart was the 1st DG course installed in TX. Props to him for that. I love Bart and live just 2 blocks away.

I have gotten to play his course in Brady a few months ago and it's a decent little course w/ some real sweet custom-made baskets w/ good placement. He did a great job w/ the available land. It is no where near the challenge (or fun, IMHO) of a course like Manor but still definately worth playing if any of you are ever in Brady, TX. (Manor is one of my top 3 favorite courses in the greater Austin area... I tend to favor the more technical, challenging courses) I was lucky and played his course on a real windy day which helped increase the challenge and fun for me.

Oddly enough, I happened to be passing through Brady for work yesterday (the same day this thread was started... unknown to me until now) and gave him a call to see if he wanted toss a few. His wife answered and let me know that he was out of town. She was very nice and friendly.

Let's try to remember that we all have different opinions. More & more often these forums are turning into flame wars over differing opinions. People calling each other douch bags and such... even attacking other people's character & making vast assumptions and generalizations. IMHO, this is the best DG site on the planet. Let's try to keep it that way.

Oh, and also try to remember that not everyone is on this site everyday. I'm pretty sure if osbogosly sees this thread he will respond.

Oh and maybe next time instead of calling someone out publically, you could try to send him/her a PM 1st....

Just my two (long) pennies. :D

All of what you said is very cool and I respect it. However, just beating down a review of a course like that, that poorly, has nothing to do with actual course reviewing. Although I agree he should have gotten an email, this is still not an objective review of this course.

It is not right to make an example out of an individual publicly unless they're just asking for it. But these kinds of threads do remind people to be objective if they are going to write a review on this site. This site's integrity is just at stake for people rating a course poorly (just to get back at a rival rated course or designer), as it is having of threads like this.

Friendly reply. :)

[Donovan]

It looks to me like the course should have been retired and a new page started after the redesign. I belive that to be TimG's way of avoiding this problem.

And that brings up a good point we have had in much older threads. What do you do with the old reviews of a 9 hole course turning into an 18 hole course.

Possible solution: Leave the 9 hole reviews in their, but restart the course rating allowing only reviews that have a date or updated review after the 18 holes were installed.

[giles]

And that brings up a good point we have had in much older threads. What do you do with the old reviews of a 9 hole course turning into an 18 hole course.

Possible solution: Leave the 9 hole reviews in their, but restart the course rating allowing only reviews that have a date or updated review after the 18 holes were installed.

Like I said, the official DGCR stance is to retire the old design of courses and start a new page with the new info. This is what needs to happen when they get Bill Allen in the Colony finished. It will be the same name and general location but a comopletely different course.

[FRIZZLE TOSSLER]

All of what you said is very cool and I respect it. However, just beating down a review of a course like that, that poorly, has nothing to do with actual course reviewing. Although I agree he should have gotten an email, this is still not an objective review of this course.

It is not right to make an example out of an individual publicly unless they're just asking for it. But these kinds of threads do remind people to be objective if they are going to write a review on this site. This site's integrity is just at stake for people rating a course poorly (just to get back at a rival rated course or designer), as it is having of threads like this.

Friendly reply. :)

Agreed 110%. Thanks for the friendly reply. :hfive:

[Cgkdisc]

I don't see why a course designer shouldn't review their own course. They probably have insights about the course you'd never get otherwise, and a totally different perspective from anyone else writing reviews about the course. Whether or not they give it the same rating as others who play the course, I think it's definitely cool to be able to read designers' thoughts when looking at new courses to play.
I won't formally review the courses I've designed. The few I've posted only have comments in the Other Thoughts section to explain background on some issues or what's happening for the course. You're required to give a rating so I've been going along with the previous reviewers. I usually have more cons on my course designs than any reviewer ever sees but there's no need to air the "dirty laundry." Most of these unposted cons are issues where there were budget constraints or I wasn't permitted to do something by the owner/park dept such as remove some trees or use a certain routing. In several cases, certain routes or placements weren't available due to potential erosion issues or building pathways/stairs for easier player access.

[Donovan]

I don't see why a course designer shouldn't review their own course. They probably have insights about the course you'd never get otherwise, and a totally different perspective from anyone else writing reviews about the course. Whether or not they give it the same rating as others who play the course, I think it's definitely cool to be able to read designers' thoughts when looking at new courses to play.

I like to read their reviews also. Some are really good. It is great to be proud of your work. I do like seeing a course designers reviews of other courses even more. Some of them, really know their stuff.

[Grover]

I won't formally review the courses I've designed. The few I've posted only have comments in the Other Thoughts section to explain background on some issues or what's happening for the course. You're required to give a rating so I've been going along with the previous reviewers. I usually have more cons on my course designs than any reviewer ever sees but there's no need to air the "dirty laundry." Most of these unposted cons are issues where there were budget constraints or I wasn't permitted to do something by the owner/park dept such as remove some trees or use a certain routing. In several cases, certain routes or placements weren't available due to potential erosion issues or building pathways/stairs for easier player access.Would it be a worthwhile suggestion to have a separate spot on each course's page for the designer of the course to describe/review it themselves (no disc ratings, just the description)?

This would allow them to explain any issues that may become controversial in future reviews and give players a feel for how the course was built and why it had whatever unique features it has. It would also eliminate the peeing matches among designers trying to job each other's courses with out of whack reviews.

It sounds to me like this would be beneficial info to have. I'd like to know what you (as a designer) was thinking...

[Cgkdisc]

I'd be game for maintaining a desginer comments section like that if available on each course. It would also allow updates when changes were planned or some things not yet completed on a course when a reviewer commented that something was weak such as no cement pads when in fact they were coming next spring let's say.

As a general comment regarding cement pads, I hate to see cement pads go in before a course opens. Courses need to be played for a while to make sure the layout is working as planned before the more permanent cement pads are installed. It should almost be considered a con or at least neutral when cement pads are there as a course opens, just on principle for the initial reviews.

[Grover]

I'd be game for maintaining a desginer comments section like that if available on each course. It would also allow updates when changes were planned or some things not yet completed on a course when a reviewer commented that something was weak such as no cement pads when in fact they were coming next spring let's say.

As a general comment regarding cement pads, I hate to see cement pads go in before a course opens. Courses need to be played for a while to make sure the layout is working as planned before the more permanent cement pads are installed. It should almost be considered a con or at least neutral when cement pads are there as a course opens, just on principle for the initial reviews.See. That's exactly what I'm talking about. I prefer concrete tees, but I never thought about it from the design standpoint (and you're absolutely right).

...Oh Tim, since you don't have anything else to do....;)

[sidewinding]

...even attacking other people's character & making vast assumptions and generalizations.

He started it by writing "Brain dead course design" in the cons section of his review.


...Oh and maybe next time instead of calling someone out publically, you could try to send him/her a PM 1st.

It didn't work when you tried it and once again, he started it by calling one of the more respected course designers "brain dead" and he did it "publically".

[sidewinding]

East Metro has been reviewed by four Gold Level Trusted Reviewers.

Srm_520 has given 49 courses an average 3.1 disc rating but gave East Metro a 4.5 disc rating and said "No one can argue that East metro sets the bar high for any golfer and any course".

Roc1time has given 80 courses an average 3.13 disc rating but gave East Metro a 4.5 disc rating and said "One of my top 5 courses I have ever played".

Bevo has given 86 course an average 2.80 disc rating but gave East Metro a 4.5 disc rating and said "Phenomenal course!".

tim has given 30 courses an average 3.48 disc rating but gave East Metro a 4.5 disc rating and said "In short: this is Texas disc golf at it's best".

[cydisc]

I've reviewed some of the courses I've designed. I'm really careful to stay objective with those and not get into why things are a certain way.

Really though, there are certain things about my courses that are beyond my control that might make them better, but nobody but me cares about that. I don't see a need for designer comments. The fact remains that you don't play the course as it could be. You play the course as it is.

[Terry C]

If this guy posts his legitimate reasons why he gave this course a deserving 1/2 disc review then the thread would die out. Until then:

http://www.funnyforumpics.com/forums/flame-insults/1/Belittle-Flame_Thrower.jpg

[cc0049]

I'll update the review as soon as I get a chance to play the course again. I realize that there have been a lot of updgrades to the course and I am dying to get down there to play it.
The course was unplayble for me at the time that I was there. It was a complete mess and was reviewed accordingly. I think the review communicates the problems with the course sufficiently.
I am totally fine with it being removed in the meantime. I don't know that I can just delete a review can I?

And while we're on the topic of erroneous Austin area course reviews, I've gotta give a shout out to cc0049 for reviewing/rating Circle C (http://www.dgcoursereview.com/reviews.php?id=542&mode=rev&page=3&sort=&tronly=) after playing only 5 holes. This also makes me wonder if osbogosly actually played all of Manor and how many reviews are actually out there where someone plays a few holes and then leaves for one reason or another. Speaking of which, I reviewed Old Settler's without realizing there were 9 althernate tees and have heard that those are some of the best holes on the course. I should probably see about having that review removed since my review is not representative of the entire course, which is what I think cc0049 should do with his Circle C review.

[jgillia]

Not exactly on topic but I see a lot of Austin area folks....Hit me up fellas for a round some time. As it is now winter Im just a weekend warrior but during the summer Im out on the course 5-7 days a week.

Anyone in the Austin area looking for someone else to throw with hit me up Im pretty much always down to throw.

[skurf]

Like I said, the official DGCR stance is to retire the old design of courses and start a new page with the new info. This is what needs to happen when they get Bill Allen in the Colony finished. It will be the same name and general location but a comopletely different course.

I'll update the review as soon as I get a chance to play the course again. I realize that there have been a lot of updgrades to the course and I am dying to get down there to play it.
The course was unplayble for me at the time that I was there. It was a complete mess and was reviewed accordingly. I think the review communicates the problems with the course sufficiently.
I am totally fine with it being removed in the meantime. I don't know that I can just delete a review can I?

My problem is not that you reviewed it before the upgrades happened (that's completely out of your control), it's that you only played 5 holes yet you still gave the course a rating and review based off of only those 5 holes. It sucks that you couldn't find where to go after hole 5, and that definitely was a problem with the old design, which is (or was) a legitimate con. To say it was unplayable is a pretty big exaggeration. You could have searched for foot trails longer or waited around longer for another group. At the time you played there was even a map available for download that could have helped solve this problem, but I know you don't always have a computer or printer available before you hit up a course.

Personally, I don't think Circle C is one of those courses that needed to be retired and re-added to clear out the old reviews because its essentially the same course with a face lift. They took out a few holes, added I think only 2 completely new ones and added some new teebox locations for the dual concrete tees they put in on most holes.

Basically, all I'm saying is you shouldn't review a course unless you have experienced all it has to offer. For instance, if a course has dual tees I think you should play from both sets before reviewing it and of course play all of the holes. Otherwise, your review is not going to be representative of the entire course, but only of the portion that you played, which in your case was less than 25% of the entire course.

[giles]

Skurf, I take what you said to the extreme. I think it is silly to review a course after only one time thru or is only one set of tees was played. I want to review Dogwood Creek aka. Lindsey park Gold in Tyler but I've only played it twice. Once with some of the designers when it was rough, then again recently with two 1000+ rated guys, Bradley W & Nikko. I'm playing it again this weekend durring the Piney Woods Pro/am and I am playing both pin positions. Only after that do I think I will have a good understanding of the course and the ability to review it.

[sidewinding]

Not exactly on topic but I see a lot of Austin area folks....Hit me up fellas for a round some time. As it is now winter Im just a weekend warrior but during the summer Im out on the course 5-7 days a week.

Anyone in the Austin area looking for someone else to throw with hit me up Im pretty much always down to throw.

Are you the same jgillia that's ranked #3 Male am in Texas with a 974 rating?

[Dave242]

Basically, all I'm saying is you shouldn't review a course unless you have experienced all it has to offer. For instance, if a course has dual tees I think you should play from both sets before reviewing it and of course play all of the holes. Otherwise, your review is not going to be representative of the entire course, but only of the portion that you played, which in your case was less than 25% of the entire course.

Nice in theory (maybe). Not nice in practice. There are plenty of courses that have 2, 3, 4 or more basket locations and dual tees. They only change up basket locations every 2-4 months. So, it could be years before it could get reviewed by people that do not live next door per your criteria.

If you want to stick by your criteria, that is fine. But, what this site needs is more reviews and ratings, not less. The tiny nuances you might be able to gather after on playing it 5 times are probably not needed in reviews any how.

[jgillia]

Are you the same jgillia that's ranked #3 Male am in Texas with a 974 rating?

one in the same

are you the infamous bagger :p

[sidewinding]

one in the same

are you the infamous bagger :p

Unfortunately. I can't help that I'm a fast learner.

[giles]

Nice in theory (maybe). Not nice in practice. There are plenty of courses that have 2, 3, 4 or more basket locations and dual tees. They only change up basket locations every 2-4 months. So, it could be years before it could get reviewed by people that do not live next door per your criteria.

If you want to stick by your criteria, that is fine. But, what this site needs is more reviews and ratings, not less. The tiny nuances you might be able to gather after on playing it 5 times are probably not needed in reviews any how.

I'm guessing this was directed at me, and I left out the qualifyer. If it is a pitch and putt course, more rounds isn't going to change that. If it is a "gold level" course I think it needs more than one round to apreciate it. I'm not looking for others to follow my lead on this, just my own thoughts on the matter.

I'm also a very poor writer (& can't spell for that matter) so I have very few reviews and try to only write one when I think I really have something to add.

[cc0049]

[QUOTE=skurf;210907]My problem is not that you reviewed it before the upgrades happened (that's completely out of your control), it's that you only played 5 holes yet you still gave the course a rating and review based off of only those 5 holes. It sucks that you couldn't find where to go after hole 5, and that definitely was a problem with the old design, which is (or was) a legitimate con. To say it was unplayable is a pretty big exaggeration. You could have searched for foot trails longer or waited around longer for another group. At the time you played there was even a map available for download that could have helped solve this problem, but I know you don't always have a computer or printer available before you hit up a course.
QUOTE]

As stated in my review...even with a map, I could not navigate the course. I spent a good bit of time trying to find the next hole, but without proper markings on the holes, it wasn't happening. With limited time to play several Austin courses that day, it wasn't worth the time and effort to keep looking.
I will have Timg remove the review, however, since the course that I saw basically no longer exists.
Just to be clear though, the 3 rating that I gave the course as it was when I played it was more than generous, given the condition of the course.

[skurf]

As stated in my review...even with a map, I could not navigate the course. I spent a good bit of time trying to find the next hole, but without proper markings on the holes, it wasn't happening. With limited time to play several Austin courses that day, it wasn't worth the time and effort to keep looking.
I will have Timg remove the review, however, since the course that I saw basically no longer exists.
Just to be clear though, the 3 rating that I gave the course as it was when I played it was more than generous, given the condition of the course.
I don't see how you can say it was generous when you didn't play three-quarters of the course. It may have been generous for those certain five holes that you played, but you didn't even get into any of the elevation changing holes and missed the epicness that is hole 18 (or hole 21 when you played it). The first few holes are pretty much just a primer anyway with holes 2, 3 and 4 being the shortest and easiest to birdie holes on the entire course. One of the rules that Timg even states when reviewing a course is that you have played all of the holes.


A few ground rules:
* Please stick to reviewing and commenting on the course and not other reviews/reviewers.
* If you feel a strong need to use cursing/profanity, please keep it to a minimum.
* Please leave talk of any illegal activities out of your review.
* Please only rate a course if you have played all the holes on it.

[Roc1Time]

When Manor was still a new course, Houke said it was the best course in Texas.

Thats what I was trying to say earlier. It was my favorite till Live Oak Gold but it is still number 2

[cc0049]

The problem with the course was that it was too difficult to navigate even with a map. I'm sure hole 21 is/was fantastic, but if you can't find it, then it is pretty useless. The actual holes that I played were fine.
I made a special trip down to Austin to play disc golf and I used this site to help me determine what courses I should try to play. At the time (August of '08), there were only two reviews on the course and they gave the course a 4 and a 4.5 and didn't paint a clear picture of how difficult the course would be to navigate. My review was for people like myself that would be traveling from out of town to forewarn them about trying to play it on their own. For that reason alone, the review was useful and warranted.

Very classy way to handle your concerns with my review though Skurf. A simple PM would have been sufficient.

[skurf]

Very classy way to handle your concerns with my review though Skurf. A simple PM would have been sufficient.
As someone said earlier, I don't see a problem with publicly commenting on a review that is already public. I'm not being rude (or at least I'm trying not to be) and just thought I'd bring it to your attention. By doing it publicly it gets my point of reviewing courses that you haven't fully played across to not only you, but to everyone else that is reading this. Hopefully they will think twice before posting a review of a course that they have not played all of the holes on.

[sidewinding]

My review was for people like myself that would be traveling from out of town to forewarn them about trying to play it on their own. For that reason alone, the review was useful and warranted.

I agree 100% because the homeboys see past how first timer un-friendly a course is.

[cc0049]

As someone said earlier, I don't see a problem with publicly commenting on a review that is already public. I'm not being rude (or at least I'm trying not to be) and just thought I'd bring it to your attention. By doing it publicly it gets my point of reviewing courses that you haven't fully played across to not only you, but to everyone else that is reading this. Hopefully they will think twice before posting a review of a course that they have not played all of the holes on.

You stated that you wanted for me to delete my review.

I would not have even known that you posted that you had a problem with the review if it had not been for a friend on this site pointing this thread and your post out to me.

You may say publicly whatever you want to say, but I think it was a classless move on your part.

[Inches of mercury]

Very lenghty discussion about how to review a course, enough already. I design courses and find most reviews are pointless and state the obvious. It's really a shame that most reviews are by people who do not lift a finger in the pain in the ass process of securing land, funds, clearing and installation of a course, Yet feel they can say whatever they like but have no idea what it took (sometimes years) to make it possible. These are not country clubs!!! Most courses are only as good as the land available (leftovers) and the work done is volunteer (which is never enough and a bunch of empty promises and no-shows). I have a suggestion for those who think their opinion means anything, it doesn't until you put in the time and effort and earn it. iF you want to say the course has potential but still needs work your probably right, so find out when the workday is and get off your lazy ass and pitch in. When a course is difficult and tests your patience, take your ass kicking!!--it was by design. The days of frisbee in the park are for casuals, not those who welcome a challenge and strive to be a versatile, sober, patient golfer. If you have a hard time finding your way around make some signs and install them yourself-- all the money was used up putting the baskets in the ground without your help.
think the teeboxes are too small? sponsor one and pour it yourself!! Another words if you didn't help shut the **** up!!!! and throw!!!!

[Dave242]

sounds like a plan dude

[harr0140]

Very lenghty discussion about how to review a course, enough already. I design courses and find most reviews are pointless and state the obvious. It's really a shame that most reviews are by people who do not lift a finger in the pain in the ass process of securing land, funds, clearing and installation of a course, Yet feel they can say whatever they like but have no idea what it took (sometimes years) to make it possible. These are not country clubs!!! Most courses are only as good as the land available (leftovers) and the work done is volunteer (which is never enough and a bunch of empty promises and no-shows). I have a suggestion for those who think their opinion means anything, it doesn't until you put in the time and effort and earn it. iF you want to say the course has potential but still needs work your probably right, so find out when the workday is and get off your lazy ass and pitch in. When a course is difficult and tests your patience, take your ass kicking!!--it was by design. The days of frisbee in the park are for casuals, not those who welcome a challenge and strive to be a versatile, sober, patient golfer. If you have a hard time finding your way around make some signs and install them yourself-- all the money was used up putting the baskets in the ground without your help.
think the teeboxes are too small? sponsor one and pour it yourself!! Another words if you didn't help shut the **** up!!!! and throw!!!!

wow is about all I can say. . .but not quite

Sure reviews may not do much but state the obvious (to you), but they help people make decisions about visiting new places. They are a very useful tool for people new to the sport, or people who travel from place to place to find new courses. There is a point to this site and the reviews, so don't start a war with all the other users on this site.

Although I do agree I have seen a lot of promises from people who play and not a lot of action, that isnt a reason to take your anger out on the entire sport. There are good people in the sport and they are willng to help out, you just have to find them and know how to use everyone elses skills to better the game and courses. This type of attack certainly will not help!

Take it easy and keep playing and keep designing, apparently just leave the reviewing to us.

[judson]

I use this site for two purposes, one to find courses to play as I travel across the country and two to figure out how to design a better course. It hurt a little when someone put my course on this site and put a review up on my first course before it opened citing things like it wasn't mowed when I actually PUSH mowed the entire course the week before. I did the entire course from proposal to the fund raising to the first round myself without help, without volounteers, without being allowed to remove trees only branches. It was made for a church where my wife and I were the only disc golfers. Designed to challenge first timers but still give them hope that the hole could be reached in two if I just throw it in the right direction. I used every inch of elevation change those 11 acres had and added more safety features than anyone will ever notice. This course is doing its job perfectly. Why try to fit a gold course on 11 acres regardless of who it is built for. Would I drive 100 mile out of my way in the middle of a 5,000 mile road trip to play it? probably not, that is a decision I can make by reading all the reviews, looking at the reviewers' stats and other reviews by them. Just because someone gave a course a poor review doesn't mean the designer didn't do his or her job. No one has dogged my second project yet, but it is a course I would go 100 miles out of my way to play. My third project just hit the planning stages.

[tallpaul]

Many courses are put in with a specific design mentality in mind. Often it is meant for recreational players, or players new to the sport, or youngsters and families. Good reviewers will note this usually rather obvious situation if they are worth their salt. They will also notice the love put in by the local crew and make note of it if they are worth their salt. What makes them worth their salt? The fact that they have spent time helping with their local courses and thereby learning that these things are a definite part of our culture. Nearly all courses are built and maintained by a dedicated, local crew. If a player truly loves the sport and the culture, he will recognize these things before too long, and begin to participate in work days and planning stages if possible, etc. I send a HUGE THANKS to everyone who makes our courses what they are.

[cc0049]

It's really a shame that most reviews are by people who do not lift a finger in the pain in the ass process of securing land, funds, clearing and installation of a course, Yet feel they can say whatever they like but have no idea what it took (sometimes years) to make it possible. These are not country clubs!!! Most courses are only as good as the land available (leftovers) and the work done is volunteer (which is never enough and a bunch of empty promises and no-shows). I have a suggestion for those who think their opinion means anything, it doesn't until you put in the time and effort and earn it. iF you want to say the course has potential but still needs work your probably right, so find out when the workday is and get off your lazy ass and pitch in. When a course is difficult and tests your patience, take your ass kicking!!--it was by design. The days of frisbee in the park are for casuals, not those who welcome a challenge and strive to be a versatile, sober, patient golfer. If you have a hard time finding your way around make some signs and install them yourself-- all the money was used up putting the baskets in the ground without your help.
think the teeboxes are too small? sponsor one and pour it yourself!! Another words if you didn't help shut the **** up!!!! and throw!!!!

90% of the work is done by 10% of the people...at best. I understand your feeling on the issue and someone like yourself may not care one bit about reviewers opinions on this site. Most, however, do get a lot of use from them. Remember that reviews actually do take time and effort and are a service to the disc golf community. We all have things that we can contribute and do what we can.
As far as work days go around our area. I very rarely get word about an organized work day and it's even more rare that I have time available to help when there is one.
It always helps to actually ask for help when it is needed.

[osbogosley]

Wow, that took some time to read. I was working on a roof in liberty hill in some pretty nasty weather all week and didn't look at a computer. I gave the 1/2 pt. review to east manor for several reasons. Why are certain course designers putting in courses that only require a throw of 200-300 ft. through a forest? Disc makers are making discs that really fly now but the courses don't let you utilize the disc. I'll like east manor after 5 years of sticker removal and tree damage have remodeled it. I played east manor with a friend who was 7th at the worlds in the '90s(pro). He didn't like it either. Most pros work for years to gain distance and touch, and then to compete on a course where the distance is a non factor and luck plays too big a part? East Manor is a one dimensional challenge. Almost every tee is another attempt to miss the trees. Thats it. I see a lot of reviews that say the course was too easy but that is a lame comment sometimes. How the courses play in competition means more to me. Brady may seem too easy for me to rate it 4.5 unless you consider that I'm introducing disc golf to new players. The first 3 holes seem easy enough to get you interested, then they get longer thru 7. After that are a variety of birdiable holes to the end. The game can change a lot if you stay patient. The shortest hole is 250 ft. Aces are earned here. If you don't have a big arm you will never see as much trouble as someone that can throw over 400 ft. The trouble comes at Brady when you try to go for birdies and throw a little too far or off line. I didn't find east manor too hard, and I'm not an old cogger. My name is Larry; Mann #3946 I'm 60 yrs. old and challenge any of you young whipersnappers to work on the roof in Liberty Hill with me. Special prize to anyone who can tell me what the semi-colon means in my name. Cheers, thanks for your interest.

[FRIZZLE TOSSLER]

Wow, that took some time to read. I was working on a roof in liberty hill in some pretty nasty weather all week and didn't look at a computer. I gave the 1/2 pt. review to east manor for several reasons. Why are certain course designers putting in courses that only require a throw of 200-300 ft. through a forest? Disc makers are making discs that really fly now but the courses don't let you utilize the disc. I'll like east manor after 5 years of sticker removal and tree damage have remodeled it. I played east manor with a friend who was 7th at the worlds in the '90s(pro). He didn't like it either. Most pros work for years to gain distance and touch, and then to compete on a course where the distance is a non factor and luck plays too big a part? East Manor is a one dimensional challenge. Almost every tee is another attempt to miss the trees. Thats it. I see a lot of reviews that say the course was too easy but that is a lame comment sometimes. How the courses play in competition means more to me. Brady may seem too easy for me to rate it 4.5 unless you consider that I'm introducing disc golf to new players. The first 3 holes seem easy enough to get you interested, then they get longer thru 7. After that are a variety of birdiable holes to the end. The game can change a lot if you stay patient. The shortest hole is 250 ft. Aces are earned here. If you don't have a big arm you will never see as much trouble as someone that can throw over 400 ft. The trouble comes at Brady when you try to go for birdies and throw a little too far or off line. I didn't find east manor too hard, and I'm not an old cogger. My name is Larry; Mann #3946 I'm 60 yrs. old and challenge any of you young whipersnappers to work on the roof in Liberty Hill with me. Special prize to anyone who can tell me what the semi-colon means in my name. Cheers, thanks for your interest.

Thanks for the reply Larry. It was great getting to talk to you at length yesterday. I learned a heck of alot from our conversation. I really hope that I'm able to make it out to your inaugural mini on Sat Jan 9th in Brady. Take care & keep on keepin on. :D

Does the semi-colon mean (given that you are 60 yrs old and all) that you only have half of your colon left??? :D :p :)

[harr0140]

Yeah thanks for the reply but when considerin disc golf design as a whole you have to account for the fact that courses are built for different reason, different players, different skill levels. I understand your personal point of view is only in regards to competition and although I have not played this course you reviewed I can see why someone would not like a certain course for competition. I can imagine you would have given at least half of my courses played 1 disc or lower ratings because they are not competition courses. I simply review based on the intent of the course and although I do not know the designers intent, I can usually figure out what they were thinking (school courses are obvious, parks in he middle of nowhere can have multiple design philosophies (family fun, destination course), some parks in the inner city can be geared towards exposure to the sport for people who would otherwise not know the game, etc etc etc. You get the picture, some courses are designed for competition, some are for family fun, some are intended to be destination courses that people will travel to, some are simply to add a function to a park or site that makes the park more multi use. Considering not all course are molded for the same people or reasons is something I take ino account on all my reviews. I am not saying you have to review my way, I am just explaining the other way of reviewing. Just remember not all courses were designed for you, and you may or may not appreciate good design (when designed for someone who is not interested in competition).

[superberry]

Very lenghty discussion about how to review a course, enough already. I design courses and find most reviews are pointless and state the obvious. It's really a shame that most reviews are by people who do not lift a finger in the pain in the ass process of securing land, funds, clearing and installation of a course, Yet feel they can say whatever they like but have no idea what it took (sometimes years) to make it possible. These are not country clubs!!! Most courses are only as good as the land available (leftovers) and the work done is volunteer (which is never enough and a bunch of empty promises and no-shows). I have a suggestion for those who think their opinion means anything, it doesn't until you put in the time and effort and earn it. iF you want to say the course has potential but still needs work your probably right, so find out when the workday is and get off your lazy ass and pitch in. When a course is difficult and tests your patience, take your ass kicking!!--it was by design. The days of frisbee in the park are for casuals, not those who welcome a challenge and strive to be a versatile, sober, patient golfer. If you have a hard time finding your way around make some signs and install them yourself-- all the money was used up putting the baskets in the ground without your help.
think the teeboxes are too small? sponsor one and pour it yourself!! Another words if you didn't help shut the **** up!!!! and throw!!!!

:D :D :D

I hear ya. I love my TWO dedicated volunteers, and ONCE was lucky enough to get two high school kids out to help on an advertised work day. No one has ever showed up on a work day other than my friends and family. Even with the way we feed, 'water', and always make time to play a round after, we RARELY get volunteers to show.

A designer's pride can be amplified tenfold if he also has builder's pride! So, I take lack of volunteers in stride with my growingly immense pride.

[osbogosley]

Yeah thanks for the reply but when considerin disc golf design as a whole you have to account for the fact that courses are built for different reason, different players, different skill levels. I understand your personal point of view is only in regards to competition and although I have not played this course you reviewed I can see why someone would not like a certain course for competition. I can imagine you would have given at least half of my courses played 1 disc or lower ratings because they are not competition courses. I simply review based on the intent of the course and although I do not know the designers intent, I can usually figure out what they were thinking (school courses are obvious, parks in he middle of nowhere can have multiple design philosophies (family fun, destination course), some parks in the inner city can be geared towards exposure to the sport for people who would otherwise not know the game, etc etc etc. You get the picture, some courses are designed for competition, some are for family fun, some are intended to be destination courses that people will travel to, some are simply to add a function to a park or site that makes the park more multi use. Considering not all course are molded for the same people or reasons is something I take ino account on all my reviews. I am not saying you have to review my way, I am just explaining the other way of reviewing. Just remember not all courses were designed for you, and you may or may not appreciate good design (when designed for someone who is not interested in competition).

Where did I say I only look at a course from the perspective of competition? And what is it that makes a course good or bad for competition? Competition for who? How many top rated women have you known and coached and kept in mind when you designed courses? How many of the top pros have you known and played doubles with at the biggest tournaments in the country? What gives you any perspective to understand how a much more accomplished player sees the course? Anybody can tell me if a course is pretty but I haven't seen many reviews that go beyond the obvious into design philosophy. If you've been through the current education system I understand.

[harr0140]

Where did I say I only look at a course from the perspective of competition? And what is it that makes a course good or bad for competition? Competition for who? How many top rated women have you known and coached and kept in mind when you designed courses? How many of the top pros have you known and played doubles with at the biggest tournaments in the country? What gives you any perspective to understand how a much more accomplished player sees the course? Anybody can tell me if a course is pretty but I haven't seen many reviews that go beyond the obvious into design philosophy. If you've been through the current education system I understand.

If you asked those question in your reeview process that is good (in my eyes) I just thought I was understanding your comments to mean that the competition was the main was your main aspect of your review. I was not criticizing you only explaining where I come from when I review (and I think a lot of people review the same way I do). I come from a landscape background with lots of design experience, so I understand what DESIGN actually means. A lot of people do not they just think a course is plopped into a property. As I stated designs are for many different people, skill levels, property uses, etc etc etc.

Not sure why you made it a personal attack, I was not attacking you, but yes I am one of the children left behind! And because you are 60 and I am 34 does not mean I do not have valuable information. Please be respectful of everyone on here until they prove they don't deserve it. I do not feel I was being disrespectful.

Perhaps just misunderstanding, I hold nothing against you. I was just stating my opinions.

[Apothecary]

Anybody can tell me if a course is pretty but I haven't seen many reviews that go beyond the obvious into design philosophy. If you've been through the current education system I understand.


oh yeah..."Its way too easy to design a 'man that course kicked my ass' course. Try designing something fun to play next time."

you are truly the Socrates of disc golf course design philosophy...:rolleyes::wall:

[prerube]

Skurf, I take what you said to the extreme. I think it is silly to review a course after only one time thru or is only one set of tees was played. I want to review Dogwood Creek aka. Lindsey park Gold in Tyler but I've only played it twice. Once with some of the designers when it was rough, then again recently with two 1000+ rated guys, Bradley W & Nikko. I'm playing it again this weekend durring the Piney Woods Pro/am and I am playing both pin positions. Only after that do I think I will have a good understanding of the course and the ability to review it.

I played Quaker's run but was rained out on hole 6. I tried to finish, but the storms was too much. I did not review it until I was able to drive back to PA and play again. The rules say you have to play the entire course to review it.

[harr0140]

I played Quaker's run but was rained out on hole 6. I tried to finish, but the storms was too much. I did not review it until I was able to drive back to PA and play again. The rules say you have to play the entire course to review it.

The first rule of disc golf course review is . . don't talk about disc golf course review.

[prerube]

Wow, that took some time to read. I was working on a roof in liberty hill in some pretty nasty weather all week and didn't look at a computer. I gave the 1/2 pt. review to east manor for several reasons. Why are certain course designers putting in courses that only require a throw of 200-300 ft. through a forest? Disc makers are making discs that really fly now but the courses don't let you utilize the disc. I'll like east manor after 5 years of sticker removal and tree damage have remodeled it. I played east manor with a friend who was 7th at the worlds in the '90s(pro). He didn't like it either. Most pros work for years to gain distance and touch, and then to compete on a course where the distance is a non factor and luck plays too big a part? East Manor is a one dimensional challenge. Almost every tee is another attempt to miss the trees. Thats it. I see a lot of reviews that say the course was too easy but that is a lame comment sometimes. How the courses play in competition means more to me. Brady may seem too easy for me to rate it 4.5 unless you consider that I'm introducing disc golf to new players. The first 3 holes seem easy enough to get you interested, then they get longer thru 7. After that are a variety of birdiable holes to the end. The game can change a lot if you stay patient. The shortest hole is 250 ft. Aces are earned here. If you don't have a big arm you will never see as much trouble as someone that can throw over 400 ft. The trouble comes at Brady when you try to go for birdies and throw a little too far or off line. I didn't find east manor too hard, and I'm not an old cogger. My name is Larry; Mann #3946 I'm 60 yrs. old and challenge any of you young whipersnappers to work on the roof in Liberty Hill with me. Special prize to anyone who can tell me what the semi-colon means in my name. Cheers, thanks for your interest.

That still does not justify a 1/2 star. a 1/2 star course is basically a lost cause. A course where you have to make up tee pads and search for baskets.

[prerube]

oh yeah..."Its way too easy to design a 'man that course kicked my ass' course. Try designing something fun to play next time."

you are truly the Socrates of disc golf course design philosophy...:rolleyes::wall:

HEHE...I am going to support you on this because he insulted the current education system.

I am sorry our schools can't afford slate boards for each kid, damn invention of paper ;)

[bikinjack]

Where did I say I only look at a course from the perspective of competition? And what is it that makes a course good or bad for competition? Competition for who? How many top rated women have you known and coached and kept in mind when you designed courses? How many of the top pros have you known and played doubles with at the biggest tournaments in the country? What gives you any perspective to understand how a much more accomplished player sees the course? Anybody can tell me if a course is pretty but I haven't seen many reviews that go beyond the obvious into design philosophy. If you've been through the current education system I understand.

I'm about to vote the cranky old man option in the poll. I was giving the benefit of doubt until this post. The last post he seemed cool, seemed to be taking the criticism well.

[edj42]

Look up East Roswell Park in Atlanta, GA. I would love to see what kind of rating he would give that course. All but a few holes are tight, heavily wooded, very challenging, but one of the best courses in our area.

[harr0140]

I'm about to vote the cranky old man option in the poll. I was giving the benefit of doubt until this post. The last post he seemed cool, seemed to be taking the criticism well.

I wasn't even criticizing him, I was just explaining how I review a course, and I evaluate a course including what I expect to be intended design philosophies. That is why some of the school course I have played have been evaluated with the intent in mind. It will not take an easy school course up to a 5 because it was designed very well to accomodate beginners, but I think a well designed school course should be able to get an ok mid level rating if designed well, with some obstacles thrown in for challenge, good baskets, garbage and such. It does go both ways but is much harder to explain the role reversal. I did send him a PM to say I wasnt criticizing his point of view, only comparing it to mine. I just dont like it when older people think younger people have nothing to offer. I offer a different point of view than many people on this site in my opinion. I give respect until someone proves they do not deserve it. I am not saying he doesnt deserve it, but some people on this site do not in my opinion. He certainly has way more experience in the game and has seen its evolution which I have not (since I have only played for 11 1/2 months). But I have even taken into account older courses when making my reviews, knowing they have been in the ground for 20-30 years and how the game has chaged since then. Some of it is inferences since I wasnt around then, but I think I am intelligent enough to figure some of those things out.

Let's just all get along!

[osbogosley]

Look up East Roswell Park in Atlanta, GA. I would love to see what kind of rating he would give that course. All but a few holes are tight, heavily wooded, very challenging, but one of the best courses in our area.

From the pics it looks better than east metro because I saw more variety and at least a few with real reasonable fairways. Doesn't have thorns in the rough, does it?

[bikinjack]

I wasn't even criticizing him, I was just explaining how I review a course, and I evaluate a course including what I expect to be intended design philosophies. That is why some of the school course I have played have been evaluated with the intent in mind. It will not take an easy school course up to a 5 because it was designed very well to accomodate beginners, but I think a well designed school course should be able to get an ok mid level rating if designed well, with some obstacles thrown in for challenge, good baskets, garbage and such. It does go both ways but is much harder to explain the role reversal. I did send him a PM to say I wasnt criticizing his point of view, only comparing it to mine. I just dont like it when older people think younger people have nothing to offer. I offer a different point of view than many people on this site in my opinion. I give respect until someone proves they do not deserve it. I am not saying he doesnt deserve it, but some people on this site do not in my opinion. He certainly has way more experience in the game and has seen its evolution which I have not (since I have only played for 11 1/2 months). But I have even taken into account older courses when making my reviews, knowing they have been in the ground for 20-30 years and how the game has chaged since then. Some of it is inferences since I wasnt around then, but I think I am intelligent enough to figure some of those things out.

Let's just all get along!

I wasn't saying that you were critical of his opinion, just that this thread on the whole was critical of his review, and I thought he took it well until that post previous to mine, which showed that he didn't take it too well. You were more than fair, I liked what you had to say, and the way you said it, which is why I posted what I did.

[superberry]

Wow, that took some time to read. I was working on a roof in liberty hill in some pretty nasty weather all week and didn't look at a computer. I gave the 1/2 pt. review to east manor for several reasons. Why are certain course designers putting in courses that only require a throw of 200-300 ft. through a forest? Disc makers are making discs that really fly now but the courses don't let you utilize the disc. I'll like east manor after 5 years of sticker removal and tree damage have remodeled it. I played east manor with a friend who was 7th at the worlds in the '90s(pro). He didn't like it either. Most pros work for years to gain distance and touch, and then to compete on a course where the distance is a non factor and luck plays too big a part? East Manor is a one dimensional challenge. Almost every tee is another attempt to miss the trees. Thats it. I see a lot of reviews that say the course was too easy but that is a lame comment sometimes. How the courses play in competition means more to me. Brady may seem too easy for me to rate it 4.5 unless you consider that I'm introducing disc golf to new players. The first 3 holes seem easy enough to get you interested, then they get longer thru 7. After that are a variety of birdiable holes to the end. The game can change a lot if you stay patient. The shortest hole is 250 ft. Aces are earned here. If you don't have a big arm you will never see as much trouble as someone that can throw over 400 ft. The trouble comes at Brady when you try to go for birdies and throw a little too far or off line. I didn't find east manor too hard, and I'm not an old cogger. My name is Larry; Mann #3946 I'm 60 yrs. old and challenge any of you young whipersnappers to work on the roof in Liberty Hill with me. Special prize to anyone who can tell me what the semi-colon means in my name. Cheers, thanks for your interest.


Am I missing something? Did you play some unmarked tees? The course hole information for East Metro shows a range of distnaces from 170' to 805'! And from the pictures compared to the over 100 courses I've played, I'd call it MODERATELY WOODED at best! Looks pretty open to me. And Brady looks like a pile that EVERY player I know would skip!

I'll never arguing opinions, and you have yours, but I think something is amiss.

You mention "East MANOR" in your reply. You reviewed "East METRO" - is that why your review seems so far out of line for what appears to be, and is reviewed to be, an excellent course?!

[harr0140]

I wasn't saying that you were critical of his opinion, just that this thread on the whole was critical of his review, and I thought he took it well until that post previous to mine, which showed that he didn't take it too well. You were more than fair, I liked what you had to say, and the way you said it, which is why I posted what I did.

Oh I knew you werent saying I was critical, I went back through the whole thread and I knew you meant as a whole some people were being very critical. Its funny how so easily on the internet things are misunderstood. You cant feel emotion or intonation all you see are words. Emoticons do nothing sometimes they only confuse things more.

[Roc1Time]

Am I missing something? Did you play some unmarked tees? The course hole information for East Metro shows a range of distnaces from 170' to 805'! And from the pictures compared to the over 100 courses I've played, I'd call it MODERATELY WOODED at best! Looks pretty open to me. And Brady looks like a pile that EVERY player I know would skip!

I'll never arguing opinions, and you have yours, but I think something is amiss.

You mention "East MANOR" in your reply. You reviewed "East METRO" - is that why your review seems so far out of line for what appears to be, and is reviewed to be, an excellent course?!

I sure am glad that someone else thought this besides me. I have been there many times and wondered the same thing

[harr0140]

Just thought I would throw in that he never responded to my PM. Maybe he was just overwhelmed by the people bombarding hima nd didnt want to defend himself. That could be construed a number of ways I guess, but I will wait and see if he does reply back to me about my posting and the PM I sent to him. I do certainly welcome a response.

[Scoot_er]

Where did I say I only look at a course from the perspective of competition? And what is it that makes a course good or bad for competition? Competition for who? How many top rated women have you known and coached and kept in mind when you designed courses? How many of the top pros have you known and played doubles with at the biggest tournaments in the country? What gives you any perspective to understand how a much more accomplished player sees the course? Anybody can tell me if a course is pretty but I haven't seen many reviews that go beyond the obvious into design philosophy. If you've been through the current education system I understand.

I have done all of these and think you are WRONG! According to you Old Settlers is a great course because you can just air it out. Manor separates the big boys from the rest which is the main purpose of a good course if you ask me.

Don Wilchek was teaching me course design when I was 13 and I'm sure you know him since he was one of the best in the state all during the 90's.

[chronicatm]

Where did I say I only look at a course from the perspective of competition? And what is it that makes a course good or bad for competition? Competition for who? How many top rated women have you known and coached and kept in mind when you designed courses? How many of the top pros have you known and played doubles with at the biggest tournaments in the country? What gives you any perspective to understand how a much more accomplished player sees the course? Anybody can tell me if a course is pretty but I haven't seen many reviews that go beyond the obvious into design philosophy. If you've been through the current education system I understand.

wow...you sound like a sad person osbogosley...

So if that's what you say about reviews, WHY IS YOUR REVIEW SO ****ING PATHETIC?!

[sloppydisc]

Thomas Sowell wrote a book called the Vision of the Annointed. It attempts to explain the mindset of some of our political class. They know better than us and are on this earth to shephard all of us pathetic losers through our lives. they went to the Ivy League schools and we need them. Seems like this guy thinks the same way. Can't fix stupid so just leave him alone and move on.

[superberry]

Don't forget - MOST OLD SCHOOL COURSE DESIGN SUCKS!

There, I said it and I believe it. The best courses are ones that are newer and have been part of a visionary goal to make something different, not mainstream. There are classics that stand the test of time, but new courses on unique land, that cater to the new levels we've raised this sport to in regards to disc technology are the ones that make everyone ooh and aah. East Metro was built in 2008 by Olse who I hear loves kick the status quo out the window. A 60 year old doesn't get it, and doesn't like it.

The dudes back then didn't take as many chances or risks in design, the greens were wide open, beautiful and RISKY terrain was not well utilized, and everything was shorter because everyone was throwing junk. They didn't force people to make a difficult throw because the equipment was junk.

I mean seriously, I remember reading an old PDGA course design (as recently as 2003 though) which had statements in there like "The green should be flat and free of obstacles within and 30' or greater circle around the basket". No way!!!

Those who push the envelope make everyone else's life better. And by the way, the things you need to do in order to push the envelope change, adapt, and grow all the time - that's the point!

That's why he wrote his 1/2 disc review

[superberry]

Oh, and because julio says I write too much and am maniacal, another course that really pushes the mainstream envelope, despite being rough around the edges, is Winter Park (http://www.dgcoursereview.com/course.php?id=2030). (There's my plug worked in) ;)

[harr0140]

What do you know superberry you are only a bronze TR???!!! Sorry i had to say it as I know you were one of the people who went from Silver to bronze. Totally kidding of course.

I agree with what you said in your second to last post here. Pushing the envelope is the new way of expanding the game. Creating newer and tougher challenges. He obviously likes the older courses, which i certainly think still have a place. Northwise park in gainesville is one of those open courses with very mature trees but mowed turf wall to wall. It is good for a beginner but challenges everyone to avoid the trees. I can appreciate both types of course however as long as their is something to challenge you. Wide open courses with long holes get major thumbs down for me. A medium length course set amongst mature trees is great (like Anna Page East and West and Northside in Gainesville), then there are the heavily wooded tough challenge courses like Blue RIbbon pines, brown deer, the sinks, winter park, etc that bring a new level to the game. I like them all for different reasons, so I do not think that the old style courses suck, they are just a different type of game and truthfully I think designing a good course on a property like that is harder to achieve. Designing a course where you carve through woods is easier to design because you can take down what you dont want (not generally recommended though). I think that is his (osbogosley) point about being brain dead design. I dont agree with his methods nor his critique but I do his theory.

[osbogosley]

You guys are right. I will raise my rating of east metro to one and a half discs, you have humbled me with your brilliant remarks.