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Problems I could not reconcile with christianity

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05-06-2011 12:05 PM

Olorin

Edited, not my post

Quote:

Originally Posted by Heathen

I'm sorry ahead of time here, but as frankly as I can be and still maintain the expected level of civility for this respectable forum, I have to say that I think you guys are full of it. I mean that in the nicest way possible. really.

There is absolutely no way that you could possibly know (in any way that doesn't make a complete mockery of what the word "know" means) that any of that fairytale is true. Your talking about a being that you've done nothing to establish, even the possibilty of it existing, in the first place. Then you try to pretend that you know what it wants from you too. And all of this is based on a collection of tribal mythologies from the ignorance of bronze age animal herders.

Untill the ones that are making the claims of god can provide any inkling of evidence for their claims, then the religious's claims are hollow.

I'm not making unreasonable demands. These are the standards that science absolutely demands of itself. And because of that, modern science has produced the greatest advances of human knowledge in human history. Kids don't die of polio anymore in countries where the fruits of science are available for example. But the places that don't have the science available still suffer, and they do so even though they have the same access to god.

05-06-2011 12:59 PM

waynewf

I have gone through this thread a few times, and I still can't understand how the christians are defending themselves here.
They simply trust that god is god and god is good and whatever happens is according to his plan and must be good too....
But there is NO evidence to support this love that god supposedly has.
This religion has set forth many rules andd guidlines for the people to follow that this god failed to live up to itself. that is a god prone to jealousy, which is born out of vanity and a lack of self-confidence....a violent god who will sometimes act out of rage.....a god who punishes children for the sins of their fathers but also states that sons are not responsible for the sins of their fathers?

How can you trust this? There is a complete lack of logic to any of your reasoning and simply fall back on, god is love so all this must be good....when your god has appeared to be anything but good throughout history.

05-06-2011 01:16 PM

Dave242

Quote:

Originally Posted by waynewf

But there is NO evidence to support this love that god supposedly has.

I think that there is.....just not in the way you want to observe/measure it. Pondering these questions might help me get at what I would like to try to say a whole lot quicker than writing a dissertation:

Why is an attraction to beauty an innately human quality that is universal?
Why does the flight pattern of a flying disc inspire something deep within disc golfers?
Have you ever seen, heard, touched, smelled, or tasted love? Does love exist?
Why is it universally considered "good" for people to unselfishly go out of their way to help others....or to give others a 2nd or 3rd or 4th chance....or even the benefit of the doubt?
How do you aptly describe the color red to a person born blind?

05-06-2011 01:46 PM

slowRoll

I'm glad you're here Dave. I can't put things into words as well as Olorin and you. I believe myself to be somewhat blessed with wisdom, but not necessarily intelligence. I know what I know, but have a hard time explaining it to those that disagree with me. I'm thankful for believers that are also wordsmiths.

05-06-2011 02:14 PM

Dave242

Well thanks......glad to be here. But I feel awfully clumsy with my words almost all the time.
And.....a lot of what attracts me to this discussion is that my perspective (which I hope to put into words as far as an "apologetic" of why I think Jesus is the "Ultimate Reality") is half-baked.....still in process. I hope the perspectives and arguments of those with differing opinions can shape it......or have me discard it if I am off base.

05-06-2011 03:01 PM

Donovan

Well, I got go with Hellen Keller on that last one. She got handed something burning hot and she understood red.

But is you are pushing for instinct, then almost everything living organism are all going to have this same opportunity to love god? That makes no sense, but again, I think you are presenting some cool. I just don't think it truly answers it. If this were a true, then you think instinct points us in the right direction when looking for it. Tell that to a serial killer. If you confirm his instinct is right because he feels it.. (I don't want to live near you bro.

)

05-06-2011 04:36 PM

Dave242

Quote:

Well, I got go with Hellen Keller on that last one. She got handed something burning hot and she understood red.

That is a nice story since everyone loves HK (as evidenced by HK jokes being funny), but this at best gives just a whiff of what red really is to those with the eyes to see it.

Quote:

But is you are pushing for instinct, then almost everything living organism are all going to have this same opportunity to love god? That makes no sense,
.......
If this were a true, then you think instinct points us in the right direction when looking for it. Tell that to a serial killer. If you confirm his instinct is right because he feels it.. (I don't want to live near you bro.)

I am actually not pushing for "instinct". I would fully expect a humanist to look within and answer the above with something along the lines of "all of those are just natural instinctive responses conditioned into us as we have evolved". I was expecting to drill down a little into that, so you have surprised me with taking "instinct" off the table.

So, how do you then answer/address/approach the questions posed?

05-06-2011 07:49 PM

Donovan

Beauty- Not everyone sees the same things as beautiful. BTW, some birds use their wings and plumage to attract other birds. (so beauty is just innate for humans)

Disc flight- I think it is the feeling of commanding the disc and making it do what you wanted....pride an accomplishment.

Love as a noun- umm love is a state of being not something that has the senses working it. Prove I'm excite or happy using the senses.

being good- I'm not sure I understand what you want here, but does doing good feel good inside of you? Does sex feel good inside and out? Feeling good is a feeling people want more of. That makes sense to me you might want to repeat that. Regardless, what the rest of the world's opinion on it, I am still going to enjoy what feels good. If you hurt someone, does that feel good? To those that it does, they continue to do it. Regardless what the world.....

05-06-2011 11:41 PM

BrotherDave

BroD's Deistic views on religion:
God = Abstract
Humans = Reality

The relationship b/w God and Humans is unable to be determined (by humans) because by definition humans (corporeal, fallible, mortal, etc) make mistakes and deities do not. What humans can do is make interpretations of God's abstraction and come to agreement, regardless of whether it's correct or not. I.e., a society can come to an agreement that being thin is beautiful or preying is pious or that eating people is evil.

The vast majority of the theological problems found in Christianity stem from vague definitions at the onset and then compounded by differing interpretations of holy texts.

05-08-2011 06:38 PM

Donovan

I guess I would reference BroD's deist comment with another comment I've made in the past. If there are gods and if they cared whether or not we even recognized them, they would make it real obvious about their presence. And since it is not that case, there is no point in going out of our way to figure it out. BTW, this line of thinking is what got me from deist to atheist.

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